Talk:Un hombre solo

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Requested move 20 December 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: MOVED. There is a general agreement here that

MOS:FOREIGNTITLE is the preferred guideline. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:09, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply
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MOS:FOREIGNTITLE: "Retain the style of the original for modern works". (Actually, I'm requesting to revert an undiscussed move: [1].) Moscow Connection (talk) 06:16, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply
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This is a contested technical request (permalink).  — Amakuru (talk) 10:41, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 30 December 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. As this is a review of a recently-closed discussion, I took into account the arguments made at the previous discussion as well. Across both of these discussions, I find a consensus that we should follow the Spanish-language capitalization rules, as the title is in Spanish. If this were a borrowed term we could follow the English rules, but it is not. If sources consistently used different rules we would follow them, but there doesn't appear to be consistency among sources either. The consensus arrived at the previous discussion stands.

As a side note, can some of the sources used in this discussion be put into the article? I tried to see what the sources given in the article used, but there aren't any. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bradv 17:58, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WP:UE, the article should moved back to "Un Hombre Solo" per said policy. Erick (talk) 16:47, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply
]

@
WP:COMMONNAME. Also, the usage of capitalization of foreign-language titles has been discussed several, times, before. The consensus in those discussion was the capitalization found in most English-language reliable sources are the ones that should be applied. It also does not change the fact that the majority of the English-language reliable sources uses "Un Hombre Solo", not "Un hombre solo", so both WP:UE and WP:COMMONNAME applies. here. EDIT: Also the guideline you listed is not supplemented by either policy I mentioned. Nowhere does it say it has to apply to article titles as well. Erick (talk) 18:00, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply
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Pinging @

WP:COMMONNAME. Erick (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply
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@
WP:NAME states the name found in most English-language sources is the one that should be used. Erick (talk) 18:49, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply
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My interpretation of the
WP:NCCAPS, explicitly suggest we follow sources as well. The only time we need more specific style guidelines *when selecting titles* (which is a different excercise from determining style within articles) is when common usage is not clear. In that instance we defer either to our general house style rules, or to specific guidelines covering specific topics.  — Amakuru (talk) 19:05, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply
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  • Chicago Manual of Style. Read "
    Chicago Manual of Style. (Not only against the Spanish grammar rules as I already noted earlier.)
    Wikipedia is supposed to be a serious site and I don't understand how renaming this random article against Spanish grammar and against the respected manual of style can be a step towards building an encyclopedia.
    This discussion is a waste of time. Someone who really cares should write a proper manual of style for Spanish-related things. Instead of playing games at WP:RM. --Moscow Connection (talk) 19:00, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply
    ]
@
WP:NAME. Erick (talk) 19:07, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply
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  • (edit conflict) @Magiciandude: By the way, in your original rationale [7] (as I first saw it) you used Amazon (which is not a reliable source) and the Billboard website [8] (which uses absolutely random capitalization). (It is only a happy coincidence that this particular title doesn't have prepositions or articles in the middle. Cause the Billboard "Artist > Charts" section usually has Every Single Word Capitalized, sometimes With random Words In lowercase.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 19:14, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@
WP:NAME. Erick (talk) 19:42, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply
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As an aside, I noted today's
WP:TFA on the main page with interest. No Me Queda Más seems to be a similar sort of case. I'm not sure anyone's suggested downcasing that one.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:48, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply
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@
WP:NAME still applies. Erick (talk) 23:24, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply
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Hi Erick. The problem as
WP:RS says is sources be reliable for the purpose used. Billboard, for example, is reliable for chart placings, but not reliable for Spanish - most Billboard mentions don't even get the accents right, much less capitalization. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:27, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply
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(
WP:NAME, the name and spelling of the article (applies to foreign-language titles as well) are to follow how most English-language reliable sources has it. So far, neither you nor Moscow Connections has shown otherwise. I'm sorry if I'm coming off as brash, but I'm sick and tired of this native capitalization nonsense. Erick (talk) 23:32, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply
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What does Continuum Encyclopedia of Popular Music of the World do with Spanish titles? In ictu oculi (talk) 23:38, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I quote
WP:UE, "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage" and most English-language reliable sources has it as "Un Hombre Solo". Show me where the majority of English-language reliable sources has it as "Un hombre solo" and I'll drop the RM. EDIT: That book you brought up deals with music, so it's very relevant to this article. Erick (talk) 23:42, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply
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1.
WP:MOS, and it is the main guideline responsible for capitalization. In our particular case, it says to capitalize the album's title as it is capitalized in the original language. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:41, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply
]

I gave you nearly ten English-language sources that has it as "Un Hombre Solo", where as you only provided two English-language sources that lists it as "Un hombre solo". That's hardly a few sources... Whether or not it's passing mentions it's irreverent, because it does not change the fact that they are reliable sources. That's what WP:UE has always been about. One of the fundamental pillars of Wikipedia is that we go by what reliable sources say, not what you think is right.

Verifiability, not truth. EDIT: The onus is on you to show that majority of English-language sources as it as "Un hombre solo" or just as much as the sources that I provided. EDIT 3: It seems we've been running around in circles. I think it would be helpful if we have more insight from an outsider's perspective. Erick (talk) 20:30, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply
]

I've looked at all the sources once again, and what I see is... Most of the sources you have found are inconsistent in what concerns capitalization: "Didn't We Almost Have It all" [9]. "Entre en cielo y el infierno" [10], "Et L'amour Créa La Femme" [11] (an example from AllMusic), "Live At the Greek Theatre" ([12], Billboard), "LO MEJOR DE TU VIDA" ([13], Billboard), "Gozar La Vida", "Corazon De Papel" ([14], Billboard), "Jazz From Hell" [15] or capitalize every word: "Todos Los Dias Un Dia", "Begin The Beguine" [16], "Is There Love In Space" [17].
As I've already said, it is only a happy coincidence that this particular title doesn't have prepositions or articles in the middle, or (according to your own argumentation) you would have to vote for renaming this article to something like "Begin The Beguine", "Corazon De Papel", "Is There Love In Space". --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:04, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Except WP:UE is explicitly for foreign-language titles, not English-language titles, so Begin The Beguine" and "Is There Love In Space" doesn't cut it. Further, I'm not arguing whether they consistent with their spelling or not, I'm saying that's how most English-language sources has "Un Hombre Solo" and that's how it should be. If barely any English-language source existed, then that would be one thing, but it's not. I'm still waiting for you to how other English-language sources that has the album as "Un hombre solo" by the way. EDIT: At this point, I'd rather get more input from others. Erick (talk) 22:22, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think you know that we have already found all of the mentions in reliable sources there were to find on the Internet. There are very few. (I've searched on Google and I even couldn't find some of those that you had found.)
By the way, I'm now on the Billboard website, and come on, almost all the song titles have every word capitalized [18]: "I Really Don't Want To Know/There Goes My Everything", "Frankie And Johnny" (and there are also "Hurt/for The Heart", "Moody Blue/she Thinks I Still Care".) --Moscow Connection (talk) 19:18, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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