Talk:Velir

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Velirs

Velirs are believed to be descendants of Yadu [1] - today the descendants of Yadu are called Yadavas (also Ahirs, Konars, Idaiyar, Gowda, Gollas)

Not a single dynasty record(s) according to Travancore Dynasty Records & Kerala District Gazetteers show any linkage between Velirs and Vellalars. According to Travancore Dynasty Records & Kerala District Gazetteers Vel-Ay, Mal-Vel-Ay are Ay Kings belonging to Ayar Community.

According to Pivot Politics: Changing Cultural Identities in Early State Formation Processes Paperback – 1994 by Martin Van Bakel Renee Hagestenijn Pieter Van De Velde, it states that Velirs are segmentary lineages of Yadavas (there is no mention of Vellalars or any linkage to Vellalars).

According to Neolithic Cattle-Keepers of South India: A Study of the Deccan Ashmounds. F. R. Allchin Ayars and Velirs are Cattle-keepers who rose to the level of petty chieftains.

Pattinappalai clearly states that velir King Irunkovel belongs to Shepherd race.

If Velirs = Vellalars, why would someone describe the hierarchical structure Ventar - Velir - Vellalar separately? If Velirs = Vellalars, thenn either the word Vellalar or Velir would have been omitted / because it would be redundant. It is clear from the hierarchy structure VELIRS ARE NOT VELLALARS and vice-versa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.155.19.47 (talk) 20:42, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I sincerely hope that those who contribute to Wikipedia research history of Ay Kings and Velirs are clear about the history of Velirs. 

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.245.16.100 (talk) 18:56, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://maps.thefullwiki.org/

Hockings Rajkris, I went thru the book by Hockings (the only new reference you provided in the Vellalar article). The book is not available for viewing on google books, so doing a copy-paste for you (reproducing parts of page numbers you quoted).

Page 303:

The Vellalas live throughout Tamil Nadu. Different subcastes are located in different regions. For example, Mudaliar subcastes are prominent in Tondaimandalam (with

Page 304:

a concentration in Chinglepet), Choliya Pilli and Karkattar in Cholamandalam (concentrated in Thanjavur), Kongu Vellala or Kavundar in Kongumandalam (concentrated in Coimbatore), and Saiva Pillaimar, Karkattar, and Nangudi Vellala in Pandimandalam (concentrated in Madurai and Tirunelveli). In general, the first category of Vellala (who often call themselves vegetarian Vellala) predominate in the paddy-growing river-valley regions. Since the Vellala are heterogeneous and live in multicaste environments, an estimate of the population is difficult. Current censuses do not provide statistics by caste. In some of the British period census reports, caste figures were given for some districts, and the Vellala constituted about 10 percent of the population. However, the criteria for defining Vellala seems to vary and there is no clear basis for interdistrict comparison.

Most Vellala subcastes share broadly similar origin myths that stress their links with the soil as agriculturists (as contrasted with artisans), their origin in the Ganga (Gangetic valley) and migration from northern to southern India during the distant past, and their close relationship with the three ancient Tamil dynasties — Chera, Chola, and Pan dya — in spite of the Vellalas' ineligibility for kingship. There is fairly strong literary and archaeological evidence linking core Vellala subcastes with a group of chieftains called velir., the earliest references are found in the sangam literature (first to third century AD). Until about the fourteenth century AD the velalar were prominent in the Tamil polity, economy, and society, and they have been linked with virtually all the major dynasties.

[…] Depending on the region, the Vellala may be the dominant caste, may share dominance with another caste, or may be a minority. In villages along the river basins, where wet rice cultivation is prominent, the dominant caste is often Vellala (of either category). Within a village, each Vellala subcaste, as indeed every subcaste, tends to live in a separate street. In larger villages and towns, this pattern gets blurred....

Note that Paul Hockings does not provide the literary and archaeological evidences, which link "core Vellala subcastes" with velir. Hockings mentioned Vellalar subcastes, even described their living pattern, yet Hockings does not state which are "core Vellala subcastes". Hockings notes Vellalars are heterogeneous, with varying criteria defining them. Yet instead of providing actual evidence linking them to Velir, he goes on (instead), to refer to sangam literature, assuming Sangam period Velirs and later-day Vellalars are the same. To handle this and other modern historians who merely repeat the Vellalar-Velir connection, made by medieval / modern historians, am pasting content from some sources (not available on google books) so you can also read them.--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 04:57, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra[reply]


This is your pov. This ref is a proper ref and I will add it. If you don't agree just report it. Note: I never stated that the whole nowadays vellalar come from the Velir.Rajkris (talk) 22:41, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Another ref: Proceedings of the Thirty-First International Congress of Human Sciences in Asia and North Africa, Tokyo-Kyoto, 31st August-7th September 1983, Volume 2, page 1015 [2], "Champakalakshmi: Related comments, I have an explanation for the reason why they became a landed community in Tamilnadu, if we go back to Sangam period, we have large number of Velir clans who were the large landowners. [Ramesh questioned the equation of Vellalas with Velirs, and Champakalakshmi affirmed their relation. Mahadevan supported Champakalakshmi quoting a Nakshinar's commnentry. Jha and Champakalakshmi agreed in recognizing the importance of muvendavelan in chola period".Rajkris (talk) 22:42, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Velirs lesser chiefs under Vendor/Ventar (kings)

The content below has been taken from 3 sources all of which describe the same points.

  • Social Scientist. v 15, no. 171-72 (Aug-Sept 1987) p. 73. [3], and
  • Indian History Congress, (1987). Proceedings - Indian History Congress , p.52.
  • Champakalakshmi, Radha (1996). Trade, ideology, and urbanization: South India 300 BC to AD 1300, p.31. Oxford University Press.

Evidence of a broad dual division of society is provided by the references to the Cānrōr or Uyarndōr and the Iḷicinar. The position of dominance was occupied by the chiefs/kings and the landed local elite (Velir, Kilavan or Kilan, talaivan, entai) collectively referred to as Uyarndōr and Cānrōr (the superior ones) while the lower category generally termed as Iḷicinar were engaged in various 'inferior' activities or subsistence production. It is only in the medieval commentaries on Sangam works that references to the superior Velalas (land owning group) and inferior Velala (cultivators) occur together with the Velir chiefs as the dominant land owning groups controlling fairly large areas of agricultural land indicating that stratification based on land distribution and control was believed to have existed even in this early period. The Velir are described in the Sangam works as lesser chiefs, pastoral-cum-agricultural, but next in importance only to the Vendor as a dominant socio-political group and as patrons of the Tamil poets.

--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 05:03, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra[reply]

Two types of Velalas

Content below is quoted from 2 source (both are by same author and quote the same sentences).

  • Subrahmanian, N., (1996). Śaṅgam polity: the administration and social life of the Śaṅgam Tamils, p.300.
  • Subrahmanian, N., (1993). Social and cultural history of Tamilnad, Volume 1, p.258.

The Velalas, especially the agriculturists, were a very important limb of society. Nachchinarkkiniyar recognizes two types of Velalas; the superior and the inferior. The superior Velalas owned land and directed agricultural operations, while the latter were actually cultivators working on the farm land as labourers personally engaged in tilling, sowing and reaping. The former had the right of marriage with the royal families, and some of them, also known as Velirs, were chieftains of some importance.

--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 05:15, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra[reply]

References

This is regarding references provided for this sentence:

Extolled in Sangam literature for their charity and truthfulness, they were the ancestors and head of the modern Tamil Veḷḷālar caste.[1][2][3][4]

I went thru cited page(s) for the first three references. They describe the life and times of Velirs. Did not find them saying the Velirs are ancestors of current Vellalar community. The first reference (in the cited pages 52-53) mentions the homophones of Velirs and phonemic relationship of belluru (Kannada), vellalan (Tamil) and vellalar (Malayalam). It does not say Velirs are ancestors of Vellalars. The second reference, "Heritage of Tamils" says only this on the Velir in page 269: "They were called Ulavar. Yerin valnar and Kalamar. Apart from them there was a class of landlords who employed others to work on their fields. They were known as Uluvittanpar. The most important among these landlords were the 'Velir' or the chieftains of the agricultural population". This book does not mention the Vellalars. The third reference, "Political Change and Agrarian Tradition in South India" from page 63 to 67 describes the times of Cholas and Pandyas with a Pandya importing and settling 48,000 good families from Kanchipuram into Pandya land, and further describes the Nankudi Velir who lived in 14 villages Srivaikunham Taluk. The book does say the Velir are ancestors of Vellalars. For the fourth reference "The early history of the Vellar Basin" I was not able to view the cited page 21.

Rajkris, please reproduce sentences verbatim from the given references where the authors say Velirs are ancestors of the current Vellalar community.

Thanks.--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 00:47, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra[reply]

I will check. Don't worry I have other sources states that & I will add them asap.Rajkris (talk) 21:26, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh please, your response in insipid. Three of four sources do not support your claims. Why are you still using those sources to pass off your claims?? When will you check and when will you add? You can add your sources / content without deleting content I contributed. Note: I deleted only unsubstantiated stuff not supported by references from your contributions. Then again, if this leads to edit wars, arbitration is the only way to deal with this.--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 22:18, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra[reply]


some refs:
[4] page 142: "Nannan belonged to the highest and prestigeous clan of Velir whose descendants are considered as the present days Vellalas"
[5]: page 36 "Velirs or Vellalas were landed agricultural aristocrats."
Encyclopedia of world cultures, Volume 3 By David Levinson page 304[6], [7]: "There is fairly strong literary and archeological evidence linking core Vellala subcastes with a group chieftains called Velir,...".Rajkris (talk) 22:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Fairservis was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Subramanian, Shanmuga Velayutham (1986). Heritage of the Tamils: Education and Vocation. Ca. Vē Cuppiramaṇiyan̲, Vē. Irā Mātavan̲ - Education. p. 269.
  3. ^ Venkatasubramanian, T. K. (1986). Political Change and Agrarian Tradition in South India. Delhi: Mittal Publications. pp. 63–67.
  4. ^ Arokiaswami, M. (1954). The early history of the Vellar Basin, with special reference to the Irukkuvels of Kodumbalur. Madras: Amudha Nilayam. p. 21.

Mahadevan source

This is regarding Iravatham Mahadevan source used in the introductory sentence:

The Vēḷir ([வேளிர்] Error: {{Lang-xx}}: text has italic markup (

royal house of minor dynastic kings and aristocratic chieftains in Tamilakam in the early historic period of South India.[1][2]

Iravatham Mahadevan is again used as a source for this sentence in the History section:

According to Tamil tradition & scholars, the Velirs came to south from the city of

Yadu Kshatriya clan.[1][3][4] However, it is noted that they were described as Aryan immigrants from northern part of India who might be a part of earlier Kuru Kingdom civilization that flourished in North India.[5]

Rajkris, as pointed out to you earlier on my talk page, the paper by Iravatham Mahadevan does not refer to the current Vellalar community. The terms Ventar-Velir-Velalar were used for land-owning classes or chieftains, that's all. Hope that is not too hard to understand even now. It is not correct to use Mahadevan's quote partially. Change the sentence to the full quote: "The Ventar-Velir-Velalar groups constituted the ruling and land-owning classes in the Tamil country since the beginning of recorded history and betray no trace whatever of an Indo-Aryan linguistic ancestry". If you wish to prove the current Vellalar community descended from the Velir, there is a lot more research you need to do, in order to provide appropriate citations.

You have used the intro source (Mahadevan's paper) as a reference in history section again, to say they "might belong to Yadu Kshatriya clan". That is incorrect. Read the page you cited again (page 16). The term Kshatriya is not used. So delete the word "Kshatriya" and quote properly from the source. Read carefully what Mahadevan says (on page 16) says "..it is more plausible to assume that the Yadavas were the Aryanised descendants of an original non-Aryan people than to consider the Tamil Velir to have descended from the Indo-Aryan speaking Yadavas. As M. Raghavaiyangar (2004: 27), has pointed out vel, means ‘one who performs a sacrifice’ (namely a ‘priest’). The Agastya legend itself can be re-interpreted as non-Aryan and Dravidian even in origin and pertaining to the Indus Civilisation."

--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 01:30, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra [reply]

References

  1. ^ a b Mahadevan, Iravatham (2009). "Meluhha and Agastya : Alpha and Omega of the Indus Script" (PDF). Chennai, India. p. 16. The Ventar - Velir - Vellalar groups constituted the ruling and land-owning classes in the Tamil country since the beginning of recorded history
  2. ISBN 978-81-204-0491-5
    .
  3. ^ Shashi, S. S. (1989). Encyclopedia of Indian Tribes. p. 216.
  4. Yadu of Dvaraka..."[1]
  5. ^ Govind Sadashiv Ghurye,Caste and Race in India, Popular Prakashan, 1969 ,pp238

Velirs

The Velirs of recorded history had their most famous king in Nannan or Nandan, who was also the greatest king of the

Ezhimala
which was the capital of the Mushika Family for several centuries. Could anybody add links to articles that throws more light on the Velirs and the Mushika being the same or at least related to each other? I am adding links that I think are pertinent in the Main article.

Velirs are Vellalars

Sources: 1. Tamil Studies: Essays on the History of the Tamil People, Language, Religion, and Literature By Muttusvami Srinivasa Aiyangar 2. Heritage of the Tamils: Education and Vocation - Page 269 by Shanmuga Velayutham Subramanian, Ca. Vē Cuppiramaṇiyan̲, Vē. Irā Mātavan̲ - Education - 1986 - 506 pages 3. Racical Synthesis in Hindu Culture - Page 156. 4. The Early History of the Vellar Basin, with Special Reference to the ... - Page 21 by M. Arokiaswami - Vellalas - 1954 - 166 pages 5. Peoples of India - Page 29 by William Harlen Gilbert - Ethnology - 1944 - 86 pages

Irungkovel, Ma-Vel Ewi are all vellalars "The Tamils Eighteen Hundred Years Ago By V. Kanakasabhai".

Redirecting page to Vellalars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mayank12 (talk • contribs) 17:06, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Velirs are chiefs of Vellalars

Hey,

Velirs are the chiefs of the Vellalars.

i.e. Velirs were hierarchically above the Vellalars, but VELIRS themselves are not VELLALARS. Velirs are Ayars (in other words Yadavas, descended from the mythical king Yadu)

The Tamil Sangam literature has the final say in all these matters - For e.g. IRUNKOVEL is a shepherd chief (in Tamil Pothuvar) Please read Pattinappalai - line 281 clearly says the Irunkovel is a Shepherd Chief and IRUNKOVEL is not from VELLALAR caste.

Review the references below.

  • Vel-Pari, Ma-Vel-Ewi are all Vellalars.--->Tamils Eighteen Hundred Years Ago [8]
  • "Vellalar of the Tamil Country (descendants of the Velir)"---->Journal of Tamil Studies By International Association of Tamil Research [9]
  • Tamil Studies: Essays on the History of the Tamil People, Language, Religion, and Literature By Muttusvami Srinivasa Aiyangar
  • Heritage of the Tamils: Education and Vocation - Page 269 by Shanmuga Velayutham Subramanian, Ca. Vē Cuppiramaṇiyan̲, Vē. Irā Mātavan̲ - Education - 1986 - 506 pages
  • Racical Synthesis in Hindu Culture - Page 156. (Velir or Vellalar tribes)--->[10].
  • The Early History of the Vellar Basin, with Special Reference to the ... - Page 21 by M. Arokiaswami

There are more references if you're not convinced. But I'm going with the academic scholars. Mayank12 (talk) 22:55, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for arguing with citations but dont delete articles before you reach WP:Consensus, I will counter your arguments with time. No need to panic and get into a revert war. This article nees to saty because thsi the talk page wehere talk about keeping it or redirecting happnens, not in any persons user talk page. Thanks Taprobanus (talk) 14:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another by Ramachandra Dikshitar

"The Velir or Velala tribes"--->Studies in Tamil Literature and History 

By V. R. Ramachandra Dikshitar[11].

Mayank12 (talk) 22:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have now gone through number of references, that Velalar are Velir is just one point of view. You may not like i, I have cite that syas Velalas are actually slaves of Velir kings. Other views are that they are from Belgaum or Velkramam in Karnataka or Calukaya origin, claimed Yadava origin or simply the nmae is derived from Vel meaning to win over and just a generic name for petty cheifs. So I think this option that Velir=Velalar is just one opinion not the only opinion out there. I will with time now improve the Velir aticle with proper citations and I have no intensions of wasting my time with caste realated articlse as they deteriote as soon as they are written. Taprobanus (talk) 22:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dirks: Velir as a medieval Vellalar title

I have a copy of The Hollow Crown by Dirks on my desk right now. Nowhere on page 149 does it support our present statement that "Vēḷir became a title inherited by Veḷḷālar chiefs of the medieval period". Has someone got the page number wrong? - Sitush (talk) 08:27, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here is what is said by the author page 149 [12]: "Stein (1980) disputes Arokiaswami's claims that the Irukkuvels were Vellalars on the basis of later dominance of Kallars and Maravars in the whole area, but the congruence of Irukkuvel titles (velir, velar, muventavelar) with titles used by the Vellalars of the area today and the coincidence of the dates of Irukkuvel dominance with the time sequences implied in the many origin stories, copper plates and palm leaf manuscripts all of which attribute initial settlement and leadership in Konatu to Vellalars may suggest otherwise."
Based on this ref, what can tell is: nowadays Vellalars use the same titles as the Irukkuvel who lived in the area during Vellalar dominance. This suggest that the Irrukuvel were Vellalars. Fyi, the Irukkuvels are one the famous Velir clans [13], they were among the top of the Tamil nobility, just below the Tamil kings.Rajkris (talk) 22:04, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you've quoted the same passage that I read in my copy of the book. You'll note that it is speculative and that it says "... titles used by the Vellalars of the area today" (my bolding). Today is not the medieval period & we all know that Indian social groups just love to take on titles of yesteryear in order to boost their position. - Sitush (talk) 13:16, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes very true but the author does mention other arguments and tell that all of them may suggest that Irukkuvels Velirs chieftains belonged to the Vellalar caste.
My concern is that the article previously contened a sentence telling that the Velirs were the ancestors and/or head of the Vellalar caste. This has now been removed whereas number of shcolars consider that there is a (some kind of) connections between the Velir chieftains & and the Vellalar caste. Currently there is no scholars who deny this connection. A few of them assert that the etymological connection between Velir & Vellalar is unconvincing but they recognize that the Vellalar are probably the descendants of the Velir.Rajkris (talk) 22:31, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, we need to say this using sources that say it. Dirks doesn't: he speculates and doesn't make the statement that we claim he makes. - Sitush (talk) 22:36, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok fine, I'll do that.Rajkris (talk) 22:51, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Misuse of footnotes

I've just removed three footnotes from the lead section. We do not include commentary in articles, period, and at least one of these amounts to synthesis/original research. If there is doubt about something then make that doubt explicit in the article (with sources), raise it here on the talk page or insert an inline note using the format <!-- your comment here -->. Another alternative is the {{clarify}} template, although I doubt that would be appropriate in the present situation. - Sitush (talk) 08:35, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alright Sitush. Since you are involved now, I'd rather raise issues in the talk page instead of nowiki format. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 06:55, 21 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra[reply]

Journal of Tamil Studies

The Journal of Tamil Studies is not often cited in papers hosted at JSTOR but I have no reason (yet!) to consider it unreliable. A lot of such journals are in fact unreliable - for example, the rubbish produced under various pseudo-official auspices in Odisha & much of what is written by the one-man band that calls itself the Tamil Arts Academy - but this one may be ok.

There are numerous references to it in our article but they are poor - no author name, no article title etc. Can anyone provide me with a copy of the article(s) that are cited as "International Institute of Tamil Studies, 1970. Journal of Tamil Studies, Volume 2", please? Pages include 185 & 220, so I think we need to see the entire range. - Sitush (talk) 08:44, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What I can say is this article (from IITS, 1970, Journal of Tamil Studies) seem to have original contents and have not been reproduced by any other academical sources till now.Rajkris (talk) 22:11, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that it matters whether or not the article itself has been cited. If it is published by a reliable peer-reviewed academic journal then that is sufficient. However, I would like to get a feel for the thing and, of course, ensure that its contents are not being taken out of context. - Sitush (talk) 13:17, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My concern with this article is (if I don't make mistake) it is telling that Pandya kings are linked to the Maravar and/or Kallar which is the not the case. Maravar, Kallars served as soldiers the different tamil royal dynasties as well as the Vellalar gentry (see dircks book).Rajkris (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Sitush, Yes this journal is not available at JSTOR. As for reliability, I too cannot say for or against it. In case you want to delete content from it, its fine by me. It is tough to see and get the entire range of page numbers using google books. At the most I can see a few lines in snippet view. Then when I type in the preceding few lines with double quotes in google books, it will show me the next few lines. That way I can get maximum of 3 paragraphs from a single page; which I copy and paste. However, I will try my best to get a physical copy of the book. Bests. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 06:51, 21 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra[reply]

Velir/Vellalar connection

This is my proposition for this part:


Vēḷir became a title used by nowadays Veḷḷālar.[1] Strong literary and archeological evidence links core Vellalar subcastes with the Velir chieftains.[2][3]


Ref 9: page 149 [14]: "Stein (1980) disputes Arokiaswami's claims that the Irukkuvels were Vellalars on the basis of later dominance of Kallars and Maravars in the whole area, but the congruence of Irukkuvel titles (velir, velar, muventavelar) with titles used by the Vellalars of the area today and the coincidence of the dates of Irukkuvel dominance with the time sequences implied in the many origin stories, copper plates and palm leaf manuscripts all of which attribute initial settlement and leadership in Konatu to Vellalars may suggest otherwise."

Ref 10: Encyclopedia of World Cultures page 304 [15]: "There is fairly strong literary and archaeological evidence linking core Vellala subcastes with a group of chieftains called velir."

Ref 11: Proceedings of the Thirty-First International Congress of Human Sciences in Asia and North Africa, Tokyo-Kyoto, 31st August-7th September 1983, Volume 2, page 1015 [16]: "Champakalakshmi: Related comments, I have an explanation for the reason why they became a landed community in Tamilnadu, if we go back to Sangam period, we have large number of Velir clans who were the large landowners. [Ramesh questioned the equation of Vellalas with Velirs, and Champakalakshmi affirmed their relation. Mahadevan supported Champakalakshmi quoting a Nakshinar's commnentry. Jha and Champakalakshmi agreed in recognizing the importance of muvendavelan in chola period".

Rajkris (talk) 22:27, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ISBN 978-0-521-05372-3
    .
  2. ^ Hockings, Paul (1992). Encyclopedia of world cultures. p. 304: There is fairly strong literary and archeological evidence linking core Vellala subcastes with a group chieftains called Velir.
  3. ^ Yamamoto, Tatsurō (31st August-7th September 1983). Proceedings of the Thirty-First International Congress of Human Sciences in Asia and North Africa, Tokyo-Kyoto, Volume 2. p. 1015: Champakalakshmi: Related comments, I have an explanation for the reason why they became a landed community in Tamilnadu, if we go back to Sangam period, we have large number of Velir clans who were the large landowners. [Ramesh questioned the equation of Vellalas with Velirs, and Champakalakshmi affirmed their relation. Mahadevan supported Champakalakshmi quoting a Nakshinar's commnentry. Jha and Champakalakshmi agreed in recognizing the importance of muvendavelan in chola period. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Many scholars dispute velir link to vellalar. certain communities like Muthuraja also claim link to velir word vellalar is derived from water and refers to farmers, velir is derived from spear.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Tamil_Culture_in_Ceylon/Fb4LAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Vellam Page 136 Tamil Culture in Ceylon, M. D. Raghavan · 1971

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Proceedings_of_the_Thirty_First_Internat/fAEUAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=velir Proceedings of the Thirty-First International Congress of Human Sciences in Asia Page 1015 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scholarone1 (talk • contribs) 01:37, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Women_and_Work_in_Precolonial_India/TzxwDQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vellalar+vellam&pg=PT102&printsec=frontcover Women and Work in Precolonial India

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Converting_Women/HzlkWtM9IJYC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vellalar+vellam&pg=PA62&printsec=frontcover Page 62 Converting Women Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India Publisher:Oxford University Press

Source requests

Please can someone provide copies of the following sources that have recently been added to the article. I am concerned about unintentional misrepresentation due to Rajkris not reading around the pages that are cited and relying on snippet views. (Sorry, Rajkris, but you have a long history of doing this & I'll likely be challenging anything and everything that I cannot see - the alternative is simply to remove the stuff as being seemingly dependent on snippet views). Thanks.

- Sitush (talk) 10:28, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning Hockings, Mayasutra provided the content (but I could not check myself):

The Vellalas live throughout Tamil Nadu. Different subcastes are located in different regions. For example, Mudaliar subcastes are prominent in Tondaimandalam (with

Page 304:

a concentration in Chinglepet), Choliya Pilli and Karkattar in Cholamandalam (concentrated in Thanjavur), Kongu Vellala or Kavundar in Kongumandalam (concentrated in Coimbatore), and Saiva Pillaimar, Karkattar, and Nangudi Vellala in Pandimandalam (concentrated in Madurai and Tirunelveli). In general, the first category of Vellala (who often call themselves vegetarian Vellala) predominate in the paddy-growing river-valley regions. Since the Vellala are heterogeneous and live in multicaste environments, an estimate of the population is difficult. Current censuses do not provide statistics by caste. In some of the British period census reports, caste figures were given for some districts, and the Vellala constituted about 10 percent of the population. However, the criteria for defining Vellala seems to vary and there is no clear basis for interdistrict comparison.

Most Vellala subcastes share broadly similar origin myths that stress their links with the soil as agriculturists (as contrasted with artisans), their origin in the Ganga (Gangetic valley) and migration from northern to southern India during the distant past, and their close relationship with the three ancient Tamil dynasties — Chera, Chola, and Pan dya — in spite of the Vellalas' ineligibility for kingship. There is fairly strong literary and archaeological evidence linking core Vellala subcastes with a group of chieftains called velir., the earliest references are found in the sangam literature (first to third century AD). Until about the fourteenth century

AD the velalar were prominent in the Tamil polity, economy, and society, and they have been linked with virtually all the major dynasties.

[…] Depending on the region, the Vellala may be the dominant caste, may share dominance with another caste, or may be a minority. In villages along the river basins, where wet rice cultivation is prominent, the dominant caste is often Vellala (of either category). Within a village, each Vellala subcaste, as indeed every subcaste, tends to live in a separate street. In larger villages and towns, this pattern gets blurred....
Concerning Yamamoto, I only have this snaphot: [17].
Rajkris (talk) 00:27, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ouch. It doesn't look good, does it? I'll see if I can find more, otherwise this lot are likely to have to go, except maybe stuff related to Hockings. - Sitush (talk) 17:41, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is a snippet view but it contains the paragraph which deals with Velir/Vellalar connection. Here is another, but again a snippet view:

Boundary Walls: Caste and Women in a Tamil Community by Kamala Ganesh, 1993 [18] page 49: "However, it is possible to identify in selected areas, core Vellala groups with a fairly continous & traceable history: a broad consensus link these groups with Velir: powerful chieftains of the Sangam period (1st - 3rd century AD)." Rajkris (talk) 23:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cite verification

Try as I have, I can't see where the citations in this edit support the statement. Can we have quotes, please. - Sitush (talk) 14:08, 13 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Reverting edit by Sitush

1. Complete Inscription for Yadu clan(Yaduvamsakethu) freely available on net. No need for google books.

2. Tirukovilur is stronghold of Malayaman clan and not Irunkovel.

Suggest you take time to review resources so that wrong info is not printed.

Thanks, Nittavinoda (talk) 15:49, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ancient inscriptions are not reliable sources but, even if they were, we would need the source to be cited. Similarly, your claim of the stronghold location needs to be sourced. If the information is somewhere on the web then just post a link to it here and I will sort out the citations for you provided they are
reliable sources. - Sitush (talk) 15:59, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Disagree on the statement that ancient inscriptions are not reliable in this particular scenario. The statement in question is about the genealogy of a group of people and some of them have traced their lineage to a particular clan in one of their inscriptions. I believe the inscription is a good source of information in this regard. Whether historians or people want to believe the claim is another question. You can always add a rebuttal if you think people or historians dispute the group's claim but you should leave original claim/statement as per the inscription in the article as well.
References as below:
1.The Yadu inscription that is quoted in the book is available here. Note that the link is actually an ebook so not a random website: http://www.e-books-chennaimuseum.tn.gov.in/ChennaiMuseum/images/127/files/basic-html/page24.html
2. Source for Tirukoilur is stronghold of Malayaman :
Fifteen Vaishnava Temples of Tamilnadu, Em Irājakōpālan̲- Page 43
Thanks,Nittavinoda (talk) 16:16, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, ancient inscriptions are not reliable - I don't care what you think about that because it is a long-standing consensus. However, I will look at the link because you seem to be saying that a modern source has accepted it. - Sitush (talk) 16:25, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your link to the ebook does not appear to work. - Sitush (talk) 16:27, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
consensus by which group. Post the link or add that it is unreliable in the article. That is the reason i have not just quoted the inscription but have added a second source that has accepted the inscription. If some group is considering it unreliable then add it to the article. Hiding the inscription is not the way forward.
link works fine: http://www.e-books-chennaimuseum.tn.gov.in/ChennaiMuseum/images/127/files/basic-html/page24.html
suggest a third editor to review the link and verify if it is working. Nittavinoda (talk) 16:34, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus of the Wikipedia community - see
WP:OR. - Sitush (talk) 16:40, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
@Utcursch: because the link is still not working for me and they tend to be pretty knowledgeable about ancient Indian stuff. - Sitush (talk) 16:42, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No where does it say that adding information from reliable third party sources that in this case interpret epigraphs is against wikipedia law/consensus. In this case there is no
WP:OR. Nittavinoda (talk) 16:50, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
I said that above and it is why I want to review your source. - Sitush (talk) 16:51, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The link doesn't work for me either. Maybe they shut down their server at times? Maybe someone at
WT:IN can help. utcursch | talk 17:19, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Thanks for trying. I've just had another go without any success and have now left a note at
WT:INB. - Sitush (talk) 12:38, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

Well, responses to that note do not look promising. People can see the site (I still cannot) but are wary of the source. - Sitush (talk) 01:03, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

replied to
Malayaman article yourself. Tirukkovalur is capital of Malayaman line of Velir chiefs. You have once again deleted this edit for which a reliable reference has been added. I will be making incremental changes to the article, so I suggest you review the references carefully before reverting. Nittavinoda (talk) 04:14, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

New changes

This is not a bulk edit. I'll elaborate on the changes. Velman2000 (talk) 19:59, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some mainstream sources

Some factors that need consideration. 1. Professor Dirks; p.149 The Hollow Crown; Ethnohistory of an Indian Kingdom. It's an extensive research 2. Pallavarayan Ula which refers to the Vellala Malava Princess (Malavas are Yadu Vamshi) 3. Periya Puranam referreing to Kalikamma as Eyar Kon or the Chief of Haiheya (Yadu Vamshi) 4. Jaffna Medieval literature mention Tirukoilur Ruler Vellala Perayiramudaiyan (Tirukoilur is a Velir Malayaman land) 5. Bhupalan - the Chandra Vamsa Chief of Konesar Kalvettu (Bhupala Gottiram is an acknowledged Vellala Gotram in Sri Lanka). 6. Kupaka Nadu Chief part of Jafffna invasion. Kupaka Nadu is the land of Ay Kingdom and Aykula Mahadevi mentioned as Vennir Vellala. 7. The Plough insignia is connected to Balarama in traditions (Prof. Nagaswamy has written on it). 8. Narkudi Vellala traditions. There is a later inscription of Irungolan Pillai.

There are plenty more. Consensus on Velirs as Vellala in mainstream academia is stronger than opposition. The Ganga migration and Ganga Kulam description fits in with the origins in ancient Ganga Kingdoms. If you wish to change, then leave room for these primary sources supported by academic works as well. Velman2000 (talk) 20:29, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For Konar people

Request: Stay away from disruptive editing.

First of all, The "ayar" term never denoted konar caste. Because, They were identified as "Idaiyar" cowherding caste in sangam works of Tamil literatures.

Ayar were rulers of ay kingdom during mid and post sangam period. The term "ayar" derieved from sanskrit "Abhira" word. Abhira were the one of the yadhava tribes in ancient India.

Confirm: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=nlnQmHpVSh8C&pg=PA100#v=onepage&q&f=false

and @Tamil_selvan34 Please stop disruptive editing. The user (@Materialscientist) already reverted the konar link of ayar. But you're repeating the same mistakes. It is considered disruptive editing.

Etymologically, there is a big difference between konar and ayar. Ayar were ancient people. As the sources, ayar were pastoralists. If you see these works, you'll get idea what I'm saying. There were 3 types of pastoralists ayar, kovalar, idaiyar. The idaiyar is the main name of your caste "Konar". The sources never meant konar are ayars. Not even idaiyars are ayars. If you've any inscriptional evidences that stresses "idaiyars are ayars", link your caste name with adding reliable references.

1.https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Historical_Dictionary_of_the_Tamils/ALUvDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=ayar+and+idaiyar&pg=PA372&printsec=frontcover 2. https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Dalits_and_the_Democratic_Revolution/leuICwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=ayar+and+idaiyar&pg=PT31&printsec=frontcover

Ayars were one of the velir line of kings like irunkovel. Neither konar and idaiyar. Rangasecular (talk) 03:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Rangasecular - the intention is to discuss only, Idayar and Ayar are synonyms as per valid authors and provided resources
kindly check
The Chronology of the Early Tamils - Google Books
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Chronology_of_the_Early_Tamils/vY9uAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Aayar
Page 169
As per K. Narayanan Sivaraja Pillai is a well known historian and states Idayar and Ayar are synonyms Vanaman 99 (talk) 21:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please read section 18 from below book Periya Puranam A Tamil Classic On the Great Saiva Saints of South India https://www.google.com/books/edition/Periya_Puranam/n9TVDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Idayar+Aayar&pg=PT489&printsec=frontcover

Please read page 117 Idaiyar is derived from ayar and are synonyms Kongu Nadu, a History Up to A.D. 1400 https://www.google.com/books/edition/Kongu_Nadu_a_History_Up_to_A_D_1400/WTRuAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=ayar

Please read page 161 Idaiyar and ayar are synonyms Journal of Tamil Studies https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_Tamil_Studies/ZjoRAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=aayars+idaiyar&dq=aayars+idaiyar&printsec=frontcover

Page 41 Idaiyar and ayar are synonyms Caṅka ilakkiyattil Āyar https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ca%E1%B9%85ka_ilakkiyattil_%C4%80yar/08W5AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=idaiyan+ayar&dq=idaiyan+ayar&printsec=frontcover — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vanaman 99 (talk • contribs) 23:38, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Dear Rangasecular, you can edit as you wish but kindly consider the books provided. Wishing you all the best for your edits. Respectfully 

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Vanaman 99 (talk • contribs) 21:25, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Greetings!
Thanks for providing the sources. We will work together. Do you have any inscriptional sources that support your claims? It'll be useful for further development. Rangasecular (talk) 16:46, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings to you as well !! Two references provided

Periya Puranam A Tamil Classic On the Great Saiva Saints of South India - This is tamil literature source and authentic, https://www.google.com/books/edition/Periya_Puranam/n9TVDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Idayar+Aayar&pg=PT489&printsec=frontcover

Caṅka ilakkiyattil Āyar ( Sangam Literature ) - Sangam tamil literature is the most authentic source.As per tamil literature Idaiyar and ayar are synonyms https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ca%E1%B9%85ka_ilakkiyattil_%C4%80yar/08W5AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=idaiyan+ayar&dq=idaiyan+ayar&printsec=frontcover

All references provided are Reliable sources as per wikipedia


Any how, take care and wish you good luck Vanaman 99 (talk) 01:20, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The translator said "Aayar or Idaiyar". But the original periyapuranam lines "To adore the clan of Ayars..." are not mentioning ayars are idaiyar. I'm sure about Konars are one of the subcastes of Yadav. They are described as Idaiyars. But Many are replacing konar link on aayar term.
There is a logic for history. The facts remains, The Ay velirs are originated from Ayar. You know, many sources claim Ayars originated from Abhira tribe (A clan of Ancient Yadhavas).
1. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=pzgaS1wRnl8C&pg=RA1-PA34&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=%20abhiras&f=false
2. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=nlnQmHpVSh8C&pg=PA100#v=onepage&q&f=false
If people add "Konar" caste link on aayar term, it will mean Ay velirs originated from konar caste. This won't make any sense.
For an example, Human originated from apelike ancestors. We can't say apes originated from human.
This is what i'm saying. But Konar people keep adding the konar caste link on ayar term. This is really... idk what to say. They have to understand the basic logic. That's my request. Rangasecular (talk) 01:57, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Stop vandalisam

Read

WP:OR
before you continue disruptive editing. Vandalism is fun till you get blocked for editing further.

@Scholarone1 Hi mate, Glad to see you're interested in Velir topic. You have submitted 3 sources which doesn't even have any backgrounds and authenticity. The first one 1 says they were landowners. The second one 2 says their pov. Although, that source is unreliable. The third one 3 says nothing useful for this article. I can't even see who is the author of those sources. None of them supports your claims.

If you personally disagree with reliable sources, those historians might be mistaken. Lol! Rangasecular (talk) 17:18, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ALl the sources I provided are relaible. Ramesh Mazumdar is a relaible historian. As per Ramesh Mazumdar equation with velir with vellalar is not correct. In wikipedia all theories need to be presented with reliable sources
Vellalar are a modern day agricultural community. Velirs are ancient community. You are doing POV , caste promotion and indulging vandalism.
Read
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view - Wikipedia
Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing - Wikipedia Scholarone1 (talk) 18:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That edit made by someone. I think this person @Velman2000, Not me. I just undid your vandalism. You can falsely accuse anyone to hide your mistakes (Such as Disruptive editing). Read the whole talk page. Their sources have been discussed since 2008 on the talk page. But your sources are completely unreliable and none of them supports your claims. Just understand, please.
I don't wanna drag the caste topic into a good article. I've been spending 3 days for this article to develop.
I have read many books and scholars. But in the result, I ended up to conclude these sources might be true. 1 2 3 4 5 these all reliable sources are added by that user.
Inscriptions and literatures of the famous scholars supports the 5 sources.
1. https://books.google.com/books?id=UMBGAAAAMAAJ&q=the+vellar+basin&dq=the+vellar+basin&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&printsec=frontcover&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiv_OPd0478AhWOTWwGHW-SAU8Q6AF6BAgDEAI - Arokiasamy, an epigraphist & analyst.
2. https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/pdf/meluhha_and_agastya_2009.pdf - by Iravatham mahadevan an epigraphist
3. https://www.jstor.org/stable/614004 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nankudi_Vellalar - by an Epigraphist and Historian
4. https://www.jstor.org/stable/43482996 - about origins
5. https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Journal_of_Kerala_Studies/EgSSAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=ragava+iyengar&dq=ragava+iyengar&printsec=frontcover - Ragav ayyangar (Velir history book)
6. https://archive.org/details/karmandala-satakam - 12th century work about 18 groups of vellalas or velirs
7. https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Encyclopaedia_Of_Untouchables_Ancient_Me/e8o5HyC0-FUC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vennir+vellala&pg=PA181&printsec=frontcover - Huzur plate inscription, rajkumar analysis
8. https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/South_Indian_Shrines/NLSGFW1uZboC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Records+in+his+third+year+gift+of+90+sheep+for+a+lamp+by+Velala+Madurantakam+alias+Tandanayakan&pg=PA53&printsec=frontcover - an irunkovel inscription.
9. https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Tamil_Literature/QIeqvcai5XQC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=kongu+velir&pg=PA135&printsec=frontcover - about Kongu velir
10. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Cm1tAAAAMAAJ&q=These+agriculturists+are+termed+in+Tamil+sources+as+Velir+,+from+whom+the+caste+Vellala+originated&dq=These+agriculturists+are+termed+in+Tamil+sources+as+Velir+,+from+whom+the+caste+Vellala+originated&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&printsec=frontcover&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiesfj28o78AhXkSWwGHTvyC1IQ6AF6BAgHEAI - IAHA conference
These sources are lying and useless, according to you. Right?
@Peruvan Are you the sock of these vandalism accounts? Rangasecular (talk) 04:32, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have a feeling that was the case, I'm not sure whether we need to file an SPI report or gain more evidence first. Dinoz1 (chat?) 12:20, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think so and it happened again. Let them use Free speech for a while.
Lol, it reminds Twitter owner... 😂 Rangasecular (talk) 07:41, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Rangasecular - are you even reading the books. are you saying university of Kerala and University of Indiana are all invalid resources, you seem to manipulate the resources, I feel you are a sock of velman2000,
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Proceedings_of_the_Thirty_First_Internat/fAEUAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=velir
Page 1015 states that Ramesh questions the equation of vellalas with velirs
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_Kerala_Studies/EgSSAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=unconvincing
Page 6 states that etymological interpretations to connect vellalar with velir appear unconvincing
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_Indian_History/ZxnjAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Vellam
Page 333 states the difference in the origin must put us on our guard in identifying the vels with vellalas.
@Rangasecular - read the full page and then comment. 97.90.106.214 (talk) 04:17, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Peruvan I'm not sure why you felt the need to delete the image? Surely an image isn't Caste POV. Dinoz1 (chat?) 18:41, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image is not, but medeival velir ties to current agricultural vellalar are questionable Peruvan (talk) 18:51, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@sitush - we need investigation for users here. clearly seem to be manipulating resources.

Sitush is the senior admin who edited this article and questioned the addition of vellalar in velir article. It appears that such experienced edits have been reverted with out concensus. Totally againt Wikipedia:Consensus , Neutral_point_of_view and Wikipedia:Verifiability — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.90.106.214 (talk) 01:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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