Talk:Windsor, Berkshire/Archive 1

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The proposed target for the move altered at 20:30, 4 October 2005 by

Windsor should disambiguate, as Windsor, Ontario is at least as notable as the subject of this article.

• Support -- SwissCelt 14:20, 3 October 2005 (UTC) As amended- see below.
• Oppose -- Windsor is synonymous throughout the world with its 1,000 year old royal residence. Its history and importance is far greater than any other place of the same name. MRSC 14:30, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

  Comment: The subject of this article is the town, not the royal residence. There already is an article about the royal residence, at Windsor Castle. Perhaps Windsor should redirect to that? -- SwissCelt 14:53, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. Windsor, its castle and its royal house are famous throughout the world. Windsor, Ontario, may be bigger, but it's nowhere near as significant historically or as well-known. -- Necrothesp 15:23, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose --I agree with the comments of Mrsteviec and Necrothesp above. If people want to find other meanings of Windsor they can go to the disambiguation page. Secondly, on the basis of it's political and cultural importance, Windsor deserves it's own entry on the same basis as Oxford, Cambridge and London and many other historic places. If Windsor is changed then it is setting a precedent and all such places should be disambiguated which would be a time-consuming and pedantic waste of time.Vivenot 15:30, 3 October 2005 (UTC) as amended below.
• Oppose on two main grounds - The subject of this article, with a whole millennium of history to its name, is considerably more notable than
  Francs2000
  15:48, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

  comment doesn't the castle predate the town? And isn't the proper naming convention for English towns, xxx, England ?132.205.45.110 18:40, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

  No the town predates the castle (at least it's name does). And the naming convention afaik is xxx, County. --

  Francs2000

  21:12, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

  Besides which the problem with calling it

  Francs2000

  21:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

• Support Let's not have the tail wagging the dog.--Mais oui! 18:32, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support it needs to disambig between Windsors - England, Ontario, Castle (England), Family (Royal House of England), Station (Montreal), etc. 132.205.45.110 18:37, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Such a page exists here Windsor (disambiguation). It is as yet unclear what is to be gained by moving Windsor, the original use of the name, from its current position. MRSC 19:00, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support --File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 19:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support. This discussion is backwards. Here is the guideline:

  Some topics have a primary topic which editors agree is the primary meaning for the term (Rome, for example). In this case the disambiguation page is named Rome (disambiguation), and the primary topic keeps the topic word or phrase. Ensure that the disambiguation page links not to the primary meaning, but to an unambiguous meaning (Rome, Italy rather than Rome, for example). The ambiguous meaning might redirect to the unambiguous meaning, or visa versa. In other cases, where there is no such consensus, disambiguation pages are named after the topic itself (Table, for example).

• There is obviously no consensus here, so the disambig page should be at Windsor. — mendel ☎ 19:23, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support as per Mendel. Zhatt 19:54, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support disambig. This discussion is backwards (as per Mendel). Move should have been done and not requested. — Flag of Scarborough, ON, Canada  UTSRelativity (Talk)  20:17, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Admittedly it's not Athens or Alexandria, but it's still "the primary meaning for the term". –Hajor 20:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose - Rubbish. Practically nobody in Australia has heard of Windsor Ontario. Jooler 20:37, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support. (but
  Perth, Australia and Perth, Scotland have good claims to be the primary topic, the first on size grounds and the second on historical grounds. In that case which is similar to the Windsor one, we agreed to make Perth a disambiguation page some time ago. And so it has remained despite occasional efforts to change it one way or the other. -- Derek Ross | Talk
  20:39, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support The issue is not whether a group of people in one region knows of a particular context of Windsor, but rather how many such groups exist, and their numbers. In north-eastern North America (and most of Canada, obviously), the term Windsor is overwhelmingly associated with the Canadian city for several reasons, primarily its association with the NA auto industry and as a major throughway for trade between Canada and mid-western USA. Roughly 60-80 million people make this association, at a minimum. In this case, I think there is sufficient reason to use Windsor as a disambiguation page. Mindmatrix 20:58, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
  • No it's what most people are looking for when they look up the word Windsor. Take a look at the "what links here" to this page and then to the other Windsors. Clearly with a thousand years of history attached to it the VAST majority of links for Windsor are going to be for this one. This topic deserves primary disambiguation. Jooler 21:19, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Actually they're about the same (what links here) --
      Francs2000
      21:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Eh? There's less than 50 links to Windsor Ontario, and several hundred for Windsor Berkshire Jooler 21:47, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
        • Well I don't know what you've been looking at but I count over 300. --
          Francs2000
          22:13, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
    • It's not the length of history that affects the distribution of links to this page; it's that the majority of links are already directed to the currently existing titles. Most links to this page are intended for the Windsor in Berkshire because the Windsor in Berkshire is the existing topic of this page, and the majority of links intended for Windsor, Ontario already point directly to Windsor, Ontario. In other words, this is an entirely tautological argument which has no bearing on the matter. Bearcat 23:53, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
      • You misunderstood. I referring to the number of links to each page. But as it turns out I miscounted anyway. Jooler 22:12, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
  • You say, Roughly 60-80 million people make this association, at a minimum. In this case, I think there is sufficient reason to use Windsor as a disambiguation page. What about the 60 to 80 million Brits who naturally associate Windsor with the town in England, leave alone the countless millions of other individuals around the world whose primary association is with the town with the castle in it? It feels to me that there is a bit of North American bias going on here. --
    Francs2000
    21:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
    • No, it would be a North American bias if people were arguing in favour of Windsor, Ontario owning the undisambiguated title Windsor, but that's not what's being requested here. What's being requested is a disambiguation page. Bearcat 23:57, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
    • The current situation is a pro-UK bias; moving this article and putting thr dab page here would correct that. <sarcasm>But obviously, a pro-UK bias is a good thing, since it helps cancel out the pro-Merkin bias that everything online must automatically be assumed to have.</sarcasm> -- AJR 01:51, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support Personally, I would think of the
  Windsor, England - Jord
  22:02, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support with move to
  Windsor, England. Rationale as per Mendel. Being a Brit, I think of "our" Windsor first, but from looking around online, Windsor, Ontario seems to be just as notable. -- AJR
  01:51, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose: It is not the case that the north-eastern United States thinks first of Windsor, Ontario. I would believe it of Michigan; but it is false of Massachusetts or Pennsylvania. Since the argument of numbers is fallacious (and in any case, it is an Anglo-American dialect argument,which is deprecated), the question is whether the dab page is more convenient at Windsor or Windsor (disambiguation).With all due respect to Windsor, Ontario, more people looking for Windsor want this page, if only because many of those looking for "Windsor, Ontario" are searching with that phrase. Septentrionalis
• Support making this page a dab page. I think of Windsor in reference to the castle and the "house of..". The town in isolation isn't that interesting. Secretlondon 04:03, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support move to Windsor, Berkshire and creation of disambig. While I appreciate the significant history of the original place, the economic and geographical importance of other places of that name weigh it out. Radagast 12:31, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
• I Support the move to
  Francs2000
  17:14, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
• I would support the dab page, but not solely because of Windsor, Ontario. Windsor Castle, House of Windsor and two other Windsors in England alone strongly suggest that the primary title should be the dab. But also support Windsor, Berkshire. Proposer needs to be aware that when disambiguation is necessary for English towns and cities, they should be to Town, County, not Town, England. Bearcat 18:47, 4 October 2005 (UTC)