Template talk:Romeo and Juliet

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Possible pages for inclusion

Putting it on mainspace

I went ahead and started putting this on mainspace. It's not perfect, but it's still an excellent addition to wikipedia. Wrad 21:37, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

siAsdfjkl1235 (talk) 23:06, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Size

Wow, this is a great collection of links, but quite massive for a navigation box. Is it possible to break this one up into several, or have collapsed subsections? --Another Believer (Talk) 16:34, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Make your suggestions at
WP:WAWARD) 17:39, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
Also, keep in mind that
WP:WAWARD) 17:52, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
P.S. You might want to take a look at the the recent additions to the template. I added most of them aggressively thinking that when someone took a closer look 10 or 20% of them might be removed.--
WP:WAWARD) 00:21, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply
]

@

Atomy
, really?). So… I'd be interested to see how you would define the per-play templates' scope, criteria for inclusion, and intended usage.

PS. I've only looked peripherally (the odd single diff that popped up on my watchlist) and superficially at the new and updated templates, but even at that level it's clear that you've done an amazing job. Please don't take my questioning the scope or direction of your work as in any way detracting from the praise you're due. The work is excellent and much appreciated! --Xover (talk) 07:00, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't have any involvement with this template. I worked on a lot of the smaller ones (there's a full list of which ones I worked on my on user page). For what it's worth, I agree with you that this template is far too large. So is {{Hamlet}}. I do remember Five Antonios saying something at some point along the lines that these two templates were "unusable" because they had grown so exponentially. I think I remember agreeing with him, but that was petty much the end of the discussion. Bertaut (talk) 01:22, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A few years back I spent a lot of time creating a lot of templates like these and later spent time expanding others. I think this was toward the tail end of my efforts. This is a large template. It might be improved with some content reduction. The simplest solution would be to collapse it in sections. I have seen some of my other works treated this way, such as {{
WP:WAWARD) 02:41, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply
]
Ok, but what is your reasoning that leads to that conclusion? What are the criteria you use for inclusion (e.g. what would you not include)? And concomitant with that, what is your idea of what this template is for, usage-wise (e.g. which groups of articles should it be used on)?
Discussing the pruning of individual links is pointless unless we have some kind of consensus understanding of those larger questions. --Xover (talk) 04:53, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
WP:WAWARD) 01:57, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply
]
Hmm. My initial impression is that you would have to read
Atomy (or (Don't Fear) The Reaper, to pick another random example) should be included. But in any case, I'm still hoping for an explication of your inclusion criteria (surely it isn't "everything", which really would count as "uncritical") and similarly on intended use of the template. For both aspects there must be some limit, some threshold, where an article link can fall either above or below. We need to establish what this is, what those criteria are, to be able to reason sensibly about what should be in the template. And specifically, if we start discussing individual links without establishing what those principles are we'll just end up in endless circles (we won't have the same frame of reference). To get anywhere we need to have a common understanding of what the principles for inclusion and use are, and to arrive there we need to start with an understanding of the principles you used when you (re)made the template(s). --Xover (talk) 09:40, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply
]
I feel like I am suddenly being invited to play word games and to redefine the meaning of a Navbox.
WP:WAWARD) 13:17, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply
]

No, you're being asked to explain your reasoning in such a way that we can have a productive debate about what, if anything, should be done about this navbox's size.
I've asked for that several times now, and I've, I thought, been quite lengthy in my enumeration of what I'm asking for. I've also previously suggested—and am now going to be explicit that—my immediate position on it is that it is too large, includes too many irrelevant links, and makes it too hard to find the wheat among the chaff (but see final para). Other editors here and on

Atomy seems to have become the exempli gratia here, it may be enlightening as to my concern if I explain that there is no character named "Atomy" in Romeo and Juliet. In fact, despite the fame of the Queen Mab speech, there is no character named "Mab" (or any Queen) either. The Queen Mab speech occurs in Act 1, Scene 4 which consists of Romeo angsting about everything being hopeless because Rosalind doesn't love him back, and he's certainly not going to have fun or go to the party. To this Benvolio and Mercutio try to cheer him up and encourage him to "get some" (Shakespeare uses some really bawdy puns here). Romeo then starts to whine about his horrible, bleak, dreams; but Mercutio cuts him off with the mentioned speech, which basically boils down to "Dreary dreams aren't omens. If anything they're an evil fairy trying to get you down." (Jonathan Bate
is turning in his grave, and the man isn't even dead yet). The speech begins around line 50 (editions differ on the line numbers) and runs on for almost 50 more, essentially to the end of the scene; the bulk of which is Mercutio enumerating the properties of "Queen Mab":

O, then I see Queen Mab hath been with you.
She is the fairies' midwife, and she comes
In shape no bigger than an agate-stone
On the forefinger of an alderman,
Drawn with a team of little atomies
Athwart men's noses as they lie asleep:
Her waggon-spokes made of long spinners' legs;
The cover, of the wings of grasshoppers;
Her traces, of the smallest spider's web;
Her collars, of the moonshine's watery beams;
Her whip, of cricket's bone; the lash, of film;
Her waggoner, a small grey-coated gnat,
Not half so big as a round little worm
Prick'd from the lazy finger of a maid:
Her chariot is an empty hazel-nut,
Made by the joiner squirrel or old grub,
Time out o' mind the fairies' coach-makers.
And in this state she gallops night by night
Through lovers' brains, and then they dream of love;
O'er courtiers' knees, that dream on court'sies straight;
O'er lawyers' fingers, who straight dream on fees;
O'er ladies' lips, who straight on kisses dream,
Which oft the angry Mab with blisters plagues,
Because their breaths with sweetmeats tainted are:
Sometime she gallops o'er a courtier's nose,
And then dreams he of smelling out a suit;
And sometime comes she with a tithe-pig's tail
Tickling a parson's nose as a' lies asleep,
Then dreams he of another benefice;
Sometime she driveth o'er a soldier's neck,
And then dreams he of cutting foreign throats,
Of breaches, ambuscadoes, Spanish blades,
Of healths five fathom deep; and then anon
Drums in his ear, at which he starts and wakes,
And, being thus frighted, swears a prayer or two,
And sleeps again. This is that very Mab
That plats the manes of horses in the night,
And bakes the elf-locks in foul sluttish hairs,
Which once untangled much misfortune bodes;
This is the hag, when maids lie on their backs,
That presses them and learns them first to bear,
Making them women of good carriage;
This is she—

You can read the whole thing over on wikisource (it's not long, the speech is literally half the scene).
Make note of how many of the words in that wall of text could potentially have been wikilinked and included in the navbox based on the example of "Atomy". However, if you look at a

Atomy and (Don't Fear) The Reaper are pretty obvious (if randomly picked) cases to me, so if that was all that was at issue we could just remove them and be done. But the wheat vs. chaff problem isn't really helped much by the removal of two links, which means we'll need some more or less structured way to decide what stays and what goes. The alternatives to hashing out the governing principles (the process you refer to as "play word games" above) is to have drawn out "I think this should go." "Nuh-huh!" rounds based on random editor opinion, or to go through the hours of research and the walls of text (this posting, as a prime example!) for every single even borderline link in the navbox. And having spent way, way, too much time on this post, I'm pretty sure I'd like to avoid those if at all possible.
So, for all that is good and holy, and for my sanity, can you please, if you're able, explain what you feel are the criteria against which potential inclusion in the navbox should be evaluated, and how one should decide which articles to place it on?
I'm prepared to be convinced that I'm either wrong (i.e. that there is no size problem) or that it is here unavoidable (i.e. that the de facto criteria for inclusion effectively mandate the problem), and I really didn't want to stake my pole in the "con" position at the outset, but that hinges on actually having a debate with a common frame of reference (which it is apparent, to me at least, that we currently lack). --Xover (talk) 19:52, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply
]

Revisions

In regards to the undone revision 883131749 by TonyTheTiger, I argue the addition was not redundant, as the movie referenced (Romeo + Juliet) was a major motion picture adaptation of the play, and is already listed in the soundtrack section as a totally separate article, but is missing from the film section. I had to do a bit of additional searching to find it and add it in, and I suspect many others might never find the association if it's not listed in the box. -- Lefte (talk) 17:10, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • WP:WAWARD) 05:29, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
    ]

Split proposal

I come with this proposal to split the Films section into a new navbox, due to size. The size issue seems to have raised concerns since 2014 and has not been addressed yet. Given that Romeo and Juliet is a very notable and popular play, it will most likely keep getting more adaptations. Thoughts?--LoЯd ۞pεth 16:15, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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