User talk:Codice1000.en

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Hello, Codice1000, I'm writing to you in the hope of finding a consensus solution for the dispute that is potentially rising about the terms Western Lombard vs. Insubric. In the next lines I will try to explain my point of view on this matter. I am against an extended use of the term Insubric uniquely because it is not accepted in official linguistic contexts. In international linguistic literature the term Western Lombard is the sole in use and it is the standard name for that language (or group of languages or group of dialects whichever definition you prefer).
Despite my edits and notes on the related talkpage I noticed you are insisting using this term either on the Western Lombard article language family table (between parenthesis) and in all the related sublanguages. Before changing it again, I would like to explain to you why I do not consider this a viable solution. Try to figure out what will happen if anyone with a different point of view from a standard definition of a language added his own preferred definition. We will find articles referring to Cisabduano, Transabduano, Orobico, Austrasiano, Western Venetian, etc. and this repeated each time the related term is mentioned. I hope you agree that this is not a serious option. I think that in Wikipedia we should use uniquely the standard term, and this is effectively the policy consensually adopted by the community.
The italian term Insubre or Insubrico is sometimes used in italian linguistic context, but Insubric is (as far as I know) never used in English (in lingustics I mean) and we are contributing on the English version of Wikipedia therefore we are expected to use the English standard terms.
I suggest, as possible way out of this dispute, extending the note on the Western Lombard article about the Insubric term, adding the Italian sources using this term and the reasons they give for the use of it instead of Western Lombard but in all the other articles related to Western Lombard language and dialects, exclusively the standard term should be used.

I really hope to receive an answer from you on this subject.

PS: As Brescian, I'd like to tell you that I get a shiver when I hear/read referring to my language as Orobico... ;-)
PS2: If you prefer I translate this message in Italian, please, just tell me.
-- Ninonino 07:55, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much indeed for your reply, Codice1000. Your opinion on the accuracy of the term Insubric rather than Western Lombard is absolutely respectable and it is not my intention to discuss it. How deep are the differences between Eastern and Western Lombard is an interesting argument that would deserve a proper article on the wikipedia but I fear that it would potentially generate conflicts, and this is not my intention.
What I do not agree at all (but it is not relevant) about your analisys is the part concerning the Orobic/Eastern Lombard as — as far as I know — Orobi never settled in the lands that now forms the province of Brescia, Camuni, Trumpilini (Rhaetic peoples) earlier and Cenomani (Gauls) later did, but never Orobi, and the province of Brescia is not a marginal area in the Eastern Lombard speaking region.
Also, the Venetian influence, in my opinion, is not determinant at all in the formation of the language. In my opinion Venetian dialects are far more distant from Eastern Lombard than Emiliano-Romagnolo and Piedmontese are respect to Western Lombard.
But, as I said, the arguments above are not relevant for the dispute on which term should be used in the Wikipedia articles. The problem is that we have to use a unique term because we cannot repeat in all the articles all the possible variants of a name one beside the other. What about if a further user that would supports the term cisabduano instead of W.L. and Insubric? And Eastern Lombard then should be referred as: Eastern Lombard (or Orobic, or Transabduano, or Austrasiano, or Western Venetian) to include all the possibilities. Well I think this would not be serious, Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia but not a place to support one's proper opinions.
At this point we have to decide which term should be used, and, as Western Lombard and Eastern Lombard are at the present the official terms internationally used, I think we have to use that ones.

Why don't you consider to open a new paragraph on the Western Lombard article to take account of the reasons for the use of the term Insubric instead of Western Lombard and adding there all the reliable sources you have. This is more or less the policy Wikipedia adoptes in such cases.

Cordially.

-- Ninonino 09:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Codice1000, just one more note.
Take a look at this excerpt of a poem written by Giovanni Bressani (1489-1560).

[...]Se bé cognosse, che sto nost parlà
bergamasch no s'convè a lodà la zét,
gnè da fà pians, perché chi lès o sèt
al gà fà pio tost gni vòia d'grignà.[...]

This is the Bergamasque dialect of the XV/XVI century (the Venetian domination of Bergamo started in 1428). I don't know which level of knowledge you have of Eastern Lombard but as EL speaker I can put in evidence the following differences from the current speech.

pio instead of piö (may be the writer simply omitted to discriminate o from ö)

no instead of mía (this is a confirmation that mìa is a recent innovation; possibly coming from WL?)

vòia instead of òia (the intervocalic v was still there)

For the rest there are no other remarkable differences, in fact in current Brescian it would be rendered as:

[...]Se bé conose, che sto nost parlà
bergamasch el se convé mìa a lodà la zét,
gnè a fà pians (piànzer), perché a chi che la lès o che la sét (sènt)
el gà fà piö tost ni (ègner) òia de gregnà.[...]

Well, none of the differences can be ascribed to a Venetian influence as ö is unknown in Venetian, mìa is also unknown in Venetian and the intervocalic v doesn't fall in Venetian.
The words between parenthesis are typical discrepancies still valid at present days to discriminate Bergamasque from (urban) Brescian.
Note that I have the entire work of Bressani in old Bergamasque dialect and I can assure you that, yes, there are some significant difference and sometimes it is difficult for me to understand (after all it is Bergamasque and not Brescian) but, again, none of the differences can seriously be attributed to the Venetian influence.

This is why I think that Venetian influence on Eastern Lombard is not that important.

Cordially again,

-- Ninonino 12:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ti scrivo in relazione alla risposta che ho trovato sulla talkpage dell'articolo sul Canzese. La risposta non è firmata ma penso di non sbagliare attribuendola alla tua mano.

Non so se era chiaro il mio precedente intervento in relazione al numero dei fonemi vocalici del Canzese, quindi provo a chiarire meglio.
Nella tabella delle vocali sono elencati 13 fonemi vocalici, cosa che mi ha insospettito perché nelle lingue lombarde (sia occidentali che orientali) di solito sono 9, cioè: /a/, /e/, /ɛ/, /o/, /ɔ/, /i/, /u/, /ø/, /y/. Invece nella tabella sono elencati altri 4 fonemi, e cioè: /ɑ/, /ɪ/, /ʊ/, /æ/, che di solito non fanno parte dei sistemi vocalici dei dialetti (lingue, varianti, chiamali come vuoi) Lombardi.
Attenzione però, dire che non esistono come fonemi non significa dire che non esistono in assoluto come suoni. C'è una grossa differenza tra il concetto di suono o meglio di 'fono' e il concetto di 'fonema'. Il fonema è un'entità astratta, il fono al contrario è la sua realizzazione fisica. Il fonema può venire realizzato in modo diverso a seconda del contesto fonetico. Le sue diverse realizzazioni si chiamano allofoni. I fonemi vengono rappresentati tramite la notazione / /, i foni vengono invece rappresentati per mezzo della notazione [ ].
Ora, i suoni [ɑ], [ɪ], [ʊ], [æ], probabilmente sono allofoni di uno dei nove fonemi elencati in precedenza (io non conosco il Canzese per cui posso solo fare delle congetture in questo senso). Può anche darsi che in Canzese i fonemi vocalici non siano 9 ma mi sorprenderebbe scoprire che davvero sono 13.
Nella tabella riportata nell'articolo però, come ho detto prima, sono elencate 13 vocali con la notazione / / per cui come se fossero 13 fonemi. Secondo me, ma me lo confermerai tu se vorrai, quella tabella non è corretta.

Il metodo comunemente usato per identificare i fonemi di una lingua è quello delle coppie mimime (minimal pairs). Probabilmente conosci già questo argomento ma nel caso provo a spiegarlo anche se è più facile farlo che spiegarlo. Occorre trovare delle parole di diverso significato che differiscono SOLTANTO per il fonema da analizzare.
Ti faccio un esempio con la mia lingua, il Bresciano.
Il Bresciano ha 9 fonemi vocalici, i nove di prima: /a/, /e/, /ɛ/, /o/, /ɔ/, /i/, /u/, /ø/, /y/.

Proviamolo:

In Bresciano abbiamo le seguenti parole:

fà, [fa] (fare)
fì, [fi] (fino, fine)
fé, [fe] (fieno)
fó, [fo] (faggio, faccio)
fò, [fɔ] (fuori)

significa che : [a], [i], [e], [ɔ], [o], sono suoni appartenenti a fonemi diversi che chiameremo /a/, /i/, /e/, /o/, /ɔ/.

sö, [sø] (su)
só, [so] (sono)
sò, [sɔ] (suo)

significa che: [ø], [o], [ɔ], sono suoni appartenenti a fonemi diversi che chiameremo /ø/, /o/, /ɔ/.

mét, [met] (mente)
möt, [møt] (muto)
mut, [mut] (monte)

significa che: [e], [ø], [u], sono suoni appartenenti a fonemi diversi che chiameremo /e/, /ø/, /u/.

ruc, [ruk] (ronco)
rüc, [ryk] (sporco (sostantivo: lo sporco = el rüc))

significa che: [u] e [y], sono suoni appartenenti a fonemi diversi che chiameremo /u/ e /y/.

...e così via. Incrociando poi i dati ottenuti si costruisce la tabella dei fonemi, in questo caso vocalici della lingua in questione.


Per farti un esempio di allofono vocalico posso portarti l'esempio della a finale atona, che in Bresciano viene pronunciata all'incirca [ɔ]. Ciò significa che il fonema /a/ in Bresciano può essere rappresentato tramite due diversi allofoni ossia:

[a] (come vocale tonica e come vocale atona non in posizione finale)
[ɔ] (come vocale atona in finale di parola)

Infatti 'bala' (palla) in Bresciano si pronuncia [ˈbalɔ].

Scusa se sono stato troppo prolisso ma spero ti possa essere utile per correggere se necessario la voce sulla tua lingua alla quale (come me del resto) sembra che tieni in particolar modo.

Ciao


-- Ninonino 13:14, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ciao Codice1000. Posso aiutarti a capire il metodo da utilizzare, ma il lavoro lo puoi fare solo tu perché occorre una conoscenza accurata della lingua (il tuo Canzese in questo caso).

Innanzitutto: io avevo imparato (parecchi anni fa) il metodo delle coppie minime leggendo/studiando su Fonetica Romanza di Heinrich Lausberg, volume 1, Fonetica. Questo solo per darti un riferimento, se l'argomento ti interessa.

Ora provo a darti qualche suggerimento pratico su come procederei io.

Per prima cosa fai il lavoro sulle vocali toniche e lascia da parte (almeno all'inizio) quelle atone. Ti dico questo perché in Bresciano per esempio il sistema vocalico per le vocali accentate (toniche) è diverso da quello delle vocali atone per cui mettere insieme le due cose confonderebbe e porterebbe a risultati errati.

Ora, prendiamo una fra le parole che mi hai suggerito tu nel messaggio precedente.

analizziamo la -i- di gatìn.

Da quanto mi dici la pronuncia dovrebbe essere [gaˈtɪn].

Nota: Te lo dico anche se probabilmente lo sai già. Il segno ˈ serve per indicare la sillaba che porta l'accento principale e si colloca davanti alla sillaba in questione. Nota anche che utilizzo la notazione [ ], perché sto parlando di pronuncia, non di rappresentazione fonematica (fonemi).

Nel tuo messaggio dici anche che [ɪ] può essere variante di 'i' o 'e'. Qui provo a fare una supposizione (che però sarai tu a dover verificare ed eventualmente confermare). Se il suono [ɪ] fosse variante di 'i' o 'e' in sillaba tonica allora verrebbe da pensare che [i], [ɪ] ed [e] possano essere allofoni di uno stesso fonema. Secondo me, la cosa è alquanto improbabile. [i] ed [e] in sillaba tonica mi sa che sono fonemi diversi in un po' tutte le lingue romanze.

Mi sa piuttosto che [ɪ] può essere variante di 'i' o 'e' in sillaba atona, ma abbiamo detto che il sistema vocalico delle atone per il momento lo lasciamo da parte.

Secondo me, in sillaba tonica casomai potrebbe essere variante soltanto di 'i'. Prova a verificarlo cercando altre parole che contengano questo suono in sillaba tonica e confrontandole fra loro cercando di capire quale può essere il contesto fonetico che provoca la mutazione da [i] a [ɪ].

Ad esempio, ad intuito (e coi pochi elementi che ho) mi salta all'occhio che in [gaˈtɪn] il suono [ɪ] si trova in sillaba chiusa e prima di una nasale (in questo caso [n]). Spesso le nasali modificano il suono vocalico che le precede.

Vedi cosa è successo nel francese e nel portoghese per esempio. Ma anche nel Lombardo Orientale per restare più vicini. Noi abbiamo gatì [gaˈti]. Da quanto ho letto su diversi testi, nella mia lingua anticamente la nasale -n- ha intaccato la vocale precedente si è fusa con essa dando luogo ad una vocale nasale che ha assorbito la consonante e successivamente ha perso l'articolazione nasale ritornando una -i- semplice. E' questo a quanto pare il meccanismo che ha generato una delle maggiori differenze fonetiche tra gli idiomi lombardi orientali ed occidentali.

Allora prova a verificare se [ɪ] in sillaba tonica lo trovi sempre prima di [n].

Se la mia supposizione è giusta dovresti avere [gaˈtɪn] per gatìn ma [gaˈtina] per gatìna. In gatìn le sillabe son ga - tìn, tìn porta l'accento tonico ed è sillba chiusa. In gatìna, le sillabe sono ga-tì-na, -tì- porta l'accento tonico ma a differenza di prima è sillaba aperta.

Dalla poesia che hai messo nell'articolo sul Canzese provo a indovinare la pronuncia delle parole che hanno una -i- in posizione tonica e davanti a -n-.

bruchina si pronuncia [bruˈkina] ?

fassina si pronuncia [faˈsina] ?

cassina si pronuncia [kaˈsina] ?

minga si pronuncia [ˈmɪnga] ?

gaìna si pronuncia [gaˈina] ?

latin si pronuncia [laˈtɪn]

vin si pronuncia [vɪn] ?

Ci ho azzeccato? Se sì allora forse siamo sulla buona strada e probabilmente nel sistema vocalico per le vocali toniche [ɪ] è un allofono di /i/ e compare, come abbiamo detto, davanti a nasale (magari verifica anche cosa succede davanti ad -m-) in sillaba chiusa.

In tutta questa pappardella non ho tenuto in considerazione una variabile importante, cioè che negli idiomi della Lombardia occidentale esiste la distinzione fra vocali lunghe e vocali brevi. Potrebbe essere che la mutazione avviene solo nella vocale breve e non in quella lunga, ferme restandole altre condizioni.

Comunque, fammi sapere se ci ho azzeccato e poi se vorrai proviamo ad andare avanti insieme nell'analisi.

Ciao

Ninonino 09:03, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ciao Codice1000. Bene, mi fa piacere di averla azzeccata.

Per quanto riguarda il secondo caso del tuo esempio, cioè furmentùn, secondo me la situazione è simmetrica a [i]/[ɪ], e cioè con ogni probabilità [ʊ] è allofono di /u/ nelle stesse condizioni (in sillaba chiusa, davanti a [ŋ]).

Nel terzo esempio, cioè al e cal, pronunciati rispettivamente [æl] e [kæl], la condizione per l'alterazione di [a] in [æ] potrebbe essere la presenza del suono [l], per cui potrebbe essere che [æ] è allofono di /a/ in sillaba chiusa e davanti a [l].

Nel quarto esempio il suono [ɑ] è in sillaba atona per cui non pertinente all'analisi che stiamo facendo.

Per quanto riguarda il quinto caso gli esempi che hai portato si riferiscono solo a sillabe atone. Penso in ogni caso che /y/ sia davvero un fonema indipendente, il che non sarebbe strano perché esiste nella maggior parte delle varietà del Lombardo Occidentale (e anche in quello Orientale, così come nel Piemontese, nel Ligure, ecc.).
In Canzese come si dice lume? In Lombardo Occidentale di norma dovrebbe essere lüm [lym], o sbaglio?
Per averne la certezza che si tratti di un fonema però occorrerebbe trovare almeno una coppia minima che discrimini i fonemi /u/ e /y/. Per il Bresciano ti avevo portato l'esempio [ruk]/[ryk] —— ruc = ronco (cioè appezzamento agricolo collinare)/rüc = sudiciume —— ma dubito che questa coppia minima possa funzionare anche per il Canzese.

Ciao, a presto.

- Ninonino 09:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ciao Codice1000,

Bene bene, allora per i suoni [ɪ] e [ʊ] sembra che abbiamo risolto. Se sei d'accordo però adesso andrebbero tolti dalla tabella del sistema vocalico del Canzese. Consiglierei di fare una nota sotto la tabella in cui si da conto delle variazioni fonetiche dei fonemi /i/ e /u/ nelle condizioni fonetiche che abbiamo stabilito nei messaggi precedenti.

Per quanto riguarda il suono [æ] invece non mi è chiara una cosa: tu dici che compare solo in sillabe atone, ma negli esempi che hai portato tu al [æl] e cal [kæl], essendo monosillabi non possono essere atone a meno che tu non intenda quando appaiono in posizione atona all'interno di una frase. Ciò vorrebbe dire che le parole al e cal, prese da sole non si pronunciano [æl] e [kæl] ma magari [al] e [kal]. Mi spieghi meglio? La cosa mi incuriosisce.

Ciao e grazie in anticipo.

-- Ninonino 09:12, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposed deletion of File:Altare della patria zoom.jpg

The file File:Altare della patria zoom.jpg has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Unused, low-res, no obvious use. Better files at c:Category:Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, Vittoriano (Rome).

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be

deleted for any of several reasons

.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated files}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the file's talk page.

Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated files}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and files for discussion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. --Minorax^«¦talk¦» 13:49, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination of Alternative Insubric orthographies for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Alternative Insubric orthographies is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alternative Insubric orthographies until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

JMWt (talk) 11:49, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]