User talk:Gonnym/sandboxBigBrother

I think the next series that should get RM are the Indian Bigg Boss series, the German Big Brother and the Spanish Gran Hermano. Thoughts? --Gonnym (talk) 10:43, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me although I always shudder with fear thinking of the the Bigg Boss articles in general. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 10:47, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just gonna wrap up my research into the British adaptation then get cracking on one of the three above. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 10:50, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

SUCCESSFUL

 Task complete. RM was successful and titles were moved. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 14:26, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Here is what I found out about the Finnish season. Seems the year was used consistently from 2006-2011 was correct.

♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 18:37, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since the style isn't consistent, then the normal style should be used - (Finnish season #) with the lead saying what the official name was. --Gonnym (talk) 11:27, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

With all versions of Big Brother I'm not counting the first season when it comes to establishing the naming conventions. This is not fair to those articles when trying to sort out the proper naming convention. A case in point

common name

) that matches an established naming convention then we are good there.

My thoughts on this was to use (Finnish season #) on the grounds of consistency reasons because their celebrity edition has a separate name from the rest. For their celebrity edition the name Big Brother 2013 doesn't seem to be used except in the URL when they used to archive their websites. When researching this version I got most of the information about their celebrity edition using the name Julkkis Big Brother. This also falls in line with how the season articles of

The Apprentice (U.S. TV series) are named where the civilian and celebrity editions are all counted as main editions. If we use this during the RM I feel that we would have less push back and limit the reasoning of potential oppose !votes. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 23:59, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

Pinging IJBall here, also I feel if we use the reason proposed above and add that the RM only affects the Finnish version only I think we can go ahead and propose the RM sooner than we expected here instead of holding it off until the end with the others. What do y'all think? Good idea or no? ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 00:06, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So, to be clear – are we going to propose moving them all as per

WP:RM proposal is clear in presenting why it is being proposed that they all get moved this way, I think the RM will go OK. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 00:13, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

@

The Apprentice (U.S. TV series) for the precedent for this. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 00:59, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

I was just saying in general I'm not counting the first season in any version when trying to figure out the naming convention that was used since broadcasters seem to establish naming conventions after the first season then retroactively rename the first season like CBS did with Surivivor's first season. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 01:03, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Season articles are undergoing a

RM as of 28 November 2018 all relevant parties have been notified. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 12:13, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

SUCCESSFUL

 Task complete.

RM was successful and titles were moved for main and VIP series. The three All-Star series were moved to their correct titles as a result of a discussion on Gonnym's main talk page in November. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 19:17, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

From what I can find the first season was simply Gran Hermano with the numbering in the opening titles starting with the tenth season. The logo remained the same until the tenth season when the number was included in the logo. The exceptions to this was the thirteenth & eighteenth seasons which were called Gran Hermano 12+1 and Gran Hermano Revolution respectively. From what I can tell when discussing past seasons is where the the numbering for seasons 1-9 comes into play.[95]. From what openings I have seen of the celebrity (VIP) edition I haven't found any numbers in their openings.

For this edition I recommend following

The logo for 14 seems to spell out the word 14 and not show the number. Do you know if there was a different logo with the number? --Gonnym (talk) 14:52, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The main logo for that season spelled out the number while this was the only site I found that had the number. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 02:08, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Standard NCTV style should be used. --Gonnym (talk) 11:30, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Season articles for parent series and celebrity series are undergoing a

RM as of 1 December 2018 all relevant parties have been notified. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 13:03, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

SUCCESSFUL

 Task complete. RM was successful and titles were moved for main series. This also paved the way for use of the disambiguator (<Country adjective> season) for similarly named season articles. Desafio Final series needs no further disambiguation and numbers are part of the titles so no RM is needed. The other two spin-offs were one time and need no further changes to the title. All Portuguese articles are now done. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 17:04, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So with Secret Story here are some quick finds I have found:

• With the main series we have the correct names seasons two - seven actually called Secret Story 2, Secret Story 3, Secret Story 4, etc. and the number is included in the graphics shown during the show. However the main series has the subtitle "Casa dos Segredos" which translates to "House of Secrets" and the Portuguese press often refers to each main season in the short form of "Casa dos Segredos #". Now according to the bio of this contestant who won the first season the broadcaster does retroactively refer to the first season as "Casa dos Segredos 1" which means they consider the name of the first season to be Secret Story: A Casa dos Segredos 1.

• With Desafio Final I haven't found out much about the first season but the second and third did include the number during the show and in the graphics. The fourth season the broadcaster decided to use a subtitle instead of a number in the graphics. Now in the bio above that same contestant also was in the first season of Desafio Final and the broadcaster also calls it Desafio Final 1. For the 4th season I did stumble across a source referring to the fourth season as Desafio Final 4 which could indicate that it is a common name for the season despite the broadcaster using a subtitle.

So in a quick search the main series is a solid as a rock while Desafio Final is a case that it has 2 confirmed numbered seasons, 1 subtitled season and 1 non-numbered season which by

Desafio Final: Ok, so seems that "Secret Story: Desafio Final #" is the correct name.

Main series: found an English source which mentions it, not a good one, but at least something. Secret Story: Casa dos Segredos. This local source uses both names, but not together. So it seems that we should either go with Secret Story: Casa dos Segredos for the series, or Secret Story (Portuguese TV series); and for the seasons Secret Story: Casa dos Segredos 1 or Secret Story 1 (Portuguese season) (second style should probably ask IJBall what he thinks, as far as I know, this hasn't been done before). --Gonnym (talk) 21:10, 6 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well renaming them based on the English source (I agree with you not a very good one but something) would solve this particular series but overall we will still have this issue. If we go with Secret Story 1 (Portuguese season) and it is successful it would serve as a template for future series that have similar naming conventions. Should we move this to your main talk page and ping IJBall to get his insight? ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 21:30, 6 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, probably. --Gonnym (talk) 22:53, 6 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Once we do the Bulgarian move, this should follow the same style. --Gonnym (talk) 11:24, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Season articles for parent series are undergoing a

RM as of 5 December 2018 all relevant parties have been notified. I added an extra note to these notices to get editors attention for this one. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 19:12, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

Stray article for a non-existent season has been nominated for deletion. This article's deletion entry can be discussed here. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 19:17, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

SUCCESSFUL

 Task complete.

RM discussion was successful, main series kept the current naming convention just added season to the disambig tag. The celebrity series was moved just to eliminate incorrect disambig tag could still be moved in the future. All List of xx houseguests articles have been moved to align with the new parent article names with all redirects fixed. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 18:56, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

I also looked into the names of each season of the American version (I put my findings in my sandbox) and the current names (Big Brother #) would be correct. CBS did name seasons 2-8 & 10 by their season number and this is reflected in the opening titles of each episode and during the premier episodes of those seasons. Julie Chen even says the number as part of the names during these seasons except for season 7 & 9 where she used their subtitles. CBS retroactively named the first season Big Brother 1 during the All-Stars season you can see this when George is interviewed in the Diary Room during various episodes. The production team also created a Big Brother 1 logo during the pre-season casting special for the seventh season when the public was able to vote on who should be on the All-Stars season.

CBS dropped the number from the name starting with the eleventh season and that is when they started to use "Big Brother season #" to primarily identify each season while on occasion using the old naming convention. Around this time reliable sources began using "Big Brother season #" in the body of the article while using "Big Brother #" in the subject line. Based on what I could find the official name for seasons 2-8 & 10 is "Big Brother (season number)" while the

Those are great findings. They show that 10 seasons use a non-numbered name, 9 seasons use a numbered name and 1 season uses a subtitle. I'd still go with non-numbered NCTV names, but this would be a heated discussion it seems. Same response regarding the Bulgarian show, better keep these for last. --Gonnym (talk) 07:14, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I agree holding this to the end I just wanted to get the sources before my CBS All Access subscription ran out lol. However because it would be a very heated discussion I would suggest a compromise for this adaptation instead of holding to the general

commonly recognizable names policies. I think in this case we should see how the discussion about the Bulgarian articles turn out before making a move here. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 09:36, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

NCTV does agree that a A consistent naming scheme should be used for all season articles of a TV show: if one season is named something special, this should be noted through redirects and in the article's WP:LEAD, but the article should be named in the same fashion as the other season pages., however, my problem with this logic is that seasons 11+ were never called "Big Brother 11", so that is a made up name. However, the first season of Big Brother, using a title of "Big Brother (U.S. season 1) is technically correct. It's a "Big Brother" show and it was the first season. Note that disambiguations are not official titles, but descriptive titles. The Bulgarian issue is a bit different as all seasons seem to be using numbers. --Gonnym (talk) 10:04, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well with the Bulgarian version its first season didn't use numbers and its logo was the same like the first editions of the American, Dutch & German versions. Only seasons 2-4 of the Bulgarian version used numbers while the fifth used a subtitle. The first season was retconned to Big Brother 1 based on the official website for the second Bulgarian season where it included a link back to the first season's website. The American version however is in a unique boat where reliable sources still use the Big Brother # naming style even though CBS rarely uses that naming method in news articles on the official website. This is where I can see most of the disagreement come into play is where reliable sources still use it and CBS on occasion in news articles. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 10:55, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well if not all Bulgarian seasons were named Big Brother #, then that too might change. I thought all seasons used the numbers. But yeah, that's why we should leave the numbers til the end, so at the very least the argument of "that's how all big brother shows do" won't be a viable argument and only specific cases should have it (like the Brazil version). --Gonnym (talk) 11:04, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the fact that there are two separate naming styles - first "half" is Big Brother #, while second "half" is Big Brother (season #), then NCTV should be used here (unless I missed something). --Gonnym (talk) 11:32, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm gonna ping IJBall here as his insight on this may help as well. The current naming convention for the American main (civilian) edition should be maintained in its current form of Big Brother # for the following reasons:

• Seasons 2-8, 10 officially used this convention and were named as such.
• Season 1 was renamed during the seventh season to match the then established naming convention. This is similar to how Survivor: Borneo was given its subtitle during its tenth season (Survivor: Palau).
• Had the season articles been properly disambiguated during seasons 1-10 (i.e. something like Big Brother # (U.S. season)) then the current naming convention would continue as per WP:CONSISTENCY.
• Despite the on air change to a generic logo beginning with Season 11 the naming convention of Big Brother # is still the common name for each season by reliable sources (see my sandbox for examples).
• In addition to reliable sources using the old naming style, CBS and the production team still use the old naming convention as a secondary naming convention. When articles are written on the official website about past contestants they will use Big Brother #. They will also use the old naming style in episode descriptions. The Twitter hashtag used for each season is #BB(number) as well.
  • Promotional material and the promotional logo used for the twentieth season by CBS used the name Big Brother 20.
  • During live shows the note cards Julie holds uses the older 2D logo of the show. If you watch a live episode from twentieth season for example you will see the logo on her note cards clearly says Big Brother 20.
  • Also this reinforces my above point, if you look at the official website right now the description of the final episode of clearly states "Who will win the final three-part Head of Household competition? And which Houseguest will go on to be crowned the winner of Big Brother 20 and take home the half-million dollars?"[99]
• Because reliable sources, CBS and the production team are still using the older naming convention in various ways this satisfies both
  recognizability
  parts of the article titles policy.
• The current naming convention also satisfies the
  naturalness
  part of the policy as this would be the term people and readers would search for.
• When it comes to the parts
  conciseness
  of the article title policy both Big Brother # (U.S. season) and Big Brother (U.S. season #) would be work and have the same effect.

This is why for the main edition of the American version we should maintain the current naming convention and the policy to back it up. From all my research so far the American and Brazilian Big Brother editions are the only two that should keep the current conventions. The celebrity edition however is a different story and depends on how the second season is handled by CBS, production and the press. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 09:24, 22 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Entire series undergoing a

 Task complete. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 14:57, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Big Brother housemates, Template:Big Brother endgame and Template:Big Brother endgame2 has been nominated for merging with Template:Infobox television season. The discussion can be found here. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 20:17, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just noting here that these are non-Big Brother articles that will need to have table added to these articles as they use {{Big Brother endgame}}

• Back to Reality (TV series) - Needs {{Infobox television}}
• Castaway 2007 - has both {{Infobox television}} and {{Big Brother endgame}}. The information from {{Big Brother endgame}} needs to be converted into a table.
• There Goes the Neighborhood (TV series) - Not sure why {{Big Brother endgame}} is there it already has a table with this information? Article also has {{Infobox television}}.
• Farma (Croatian TV series) - Seasons don't have their own articles but the infoboxes are used in the sections.
• Acorralados - Replace {{Big Brother endgame}} with {{Infobox television}}
• Fazenda de Verão - Need to move the Days from {{Big Brother endgame}} to Guests table

Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 01:07, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so these articles all seem to be in the style of Big Brother - reality show where people leave each week. So the module name would probably be "Template:Infobox reality competition season" or something. I know there would probably also be a "Template:Infobox talent competition" which might be a separate one or might eventually join this one.--Gonnym (talk) 07:37, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think for everyone's sanity this module should remain separate from a module from talent show competitions. It should probably be named Big Brother but for the |housemate= parameter a switch could be included so it could say "contestants" as an alternate for "housemates" or "houseguests" for similar shows that also use it since that would be the only change I can see. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 07:58, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since there is no research yet what the talent competition articles actually need, I can't say if a separate one is needed or not. If for example template module A had 5 parameters and another type of articles used 3 of those and added 1 more, there is no need to create a new one just for that. The current template system is horrible. If template were to be converted to modules that would be a different story all together...but the editors here seem to not like that idea when I asked why. Anyways, regarding the name, if the infobox is used by other reality shows it should have a generic name. We could create a redirect from "Template:Infobox Big Brother season" if you feel like the Big Brother community can't handle the generic name. --Gonnym (talk) 08:05, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I thought talent competitions already had their own with {{Infobox television season/custom}}? Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 08:18, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ah they do its {{Infobox reality talent competition}} Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 08:19, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That is on my backlist of reworking templates. That template makes it seem like it's a sub-template of the season one, it really isn't. It should work like the one we are creating now. --Gonnym (talk) 08:22, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Are you talking about the custom template or both? (Sorry I'm a bit confused at the moment been a long day) Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 08:28, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Both Template:Infobox reality talent competition and Template:Infobox television season/custom should eventually use the season infobox with a custom module. There is no reason why both have to fork their content and create these strange templates. --Gonnym (talk) 08:34, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ah okay honestly you may need at minimum 3 custom modules for the plan to work.

• {{Infobox television season/custom}} can be one module because they have similar fields (like judges, number of tasks, they include all stars, etc.)
  • {{Infobox reality talent competition}} would be part of the same module that custom would be part of because they have similar fields.
• The module that is being created for Big Brother can also be used to replace {{
  Infobox television Survivor}}. The |housemates= parameter would just need to be swapped with |castaways= for Survivor articles. This would also be the module to eventually replace {{IACGMOOH contestants
  }}.
• {{Infobox television Amazing Race}} will most likely need its own module as it is the most unique infobox out of them all with the most unique fields.

This way it keeps a single module from being cluttered up with all the fields of the various reality TV shows and Big Brother editors don't need America's Next Top Model editors consensus to change something in the custom module. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 08:50, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, a lot of work, which is why I haven't started :) Also, some fields like "all stars" I have no idea what this for as those 3 examples given don't even use it. I also believe "number of tasks" is trivia garbage, but that will have to be discussed in the merge request itself (but without "number of tasks" and "all stars", most of those series can just use this template. --Gonnym (talk) 08:58, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point the reason why for now I am suggesting the module for Big Brother be separate is because it omits the All-Stars fields. Actually the fields for the three examples do work but the documentation is confusing and not clear on implementation. So if you look at {{

The Apprentice (U.S. season 7) you will see the "All-Stars" field in use and it links back to the season thirteen article. It works the same way with America's Next Top Model while Top Chef doesn't use it at all. It actually took me 15 minutes to figure that out. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 09:07, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

Lol, so yeah. No reason at all for that stupid parameter. So I think the unique ones are this one (reality competition season), "talent competition season" (for Idol, Dancing with the Stars, etc) maybe - need to see if only judges is needed or the whole "song won" etc, "Amazing Race season". --Gonnym (talk) 09:20, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not archiving this discussion until all season articles are using the {{Infobox reality competition season}}. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 17:04, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated the articles that are using the new template. If you convert any new ones, update it on the list so we can keep track of what's left. --Gonnym (talk) 13:34, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Task complete. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 14:57, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion now ongoing at

 Task complete. Was

WP:BOLD and moved Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 14:57, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

• HaAh HaGadol 4 and in her bio for Reshet they maintain the continuity link by saying she competed in "the fourth season of Big Brother years ago" (Google English translation).Avivit's Reshet bio They do not specify Keshet or the year. The bio for Omir was a bit more vague in saying he "managed to reach the "Big Brother" finals three years ago." Omri's Reshet bio
• HaAh HaGadol 7 and in Reshet's bio for Shai it says he "became famous during the 7th season of Big Brother at the beginning of 2016..." Shai Hai's Reshet bio