User talk:WLU/Archive 7

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Thank you. DASHBot (talk) 19:32, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the barnstar WLU, that was kind of you. It is nice to see that the article has been calm of late, hopefully it will stay that way. I still have a little more work to do on it, shall try and do that over the next day or two.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 18:32, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I've reverted some of the editing you did earlier today. Here's why:

Your revision:

'In April, 2010 the American Psychiatric Association will be releasing a new version of its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual,[54] ....'

This is wrong. They're doing no such thing in April. Where did you get this idea?

My version (I wrote this entire section, and I'm the process of rewriting the whole diagnosis section):

"On February 10, 2010, the American Psychiatric Association placed online for comment the draft diagnostic criteria for mental illness diagnoses which are proposed for the upcoming DSM-V. After a public comment period closes on April 20, 2010, the criteria will be field tested for two years, prior to final revisions and publication in May of 2013.[54]"

This is not only exactly correct (why were you fixing what wasn't broken?), it also reveals important information not generally known - that the DSM is the result of a protracted, deliberate, thoughtful process, in which field testing to improve reliability and validity of diagnostic criteria is, and has been a key part. This is certainly NOT trivia. Furthermore, my text clearly states that the new version of the DSM will be released in May 2013. This is well known in the professional mental health community, and I gave a reference.

Perhaps you were in a bit of a hurry? (It happens to the best of us.) In any case, I wanted to explain my actions to you.

The rest of your most recent changes I see as clear improvements in the writing. I appreciate that. You seem to have skills in this area. I hope you'll use them freely elsewhere in the article.

Finally, I expect today to finally give attention to your other edits, comments, etc., which are thoughtful and deserving of my careful attention. I may even agree with some of your points (heh heh). Tom Cloyd (talk) 14:27, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Your changes look good, they corrected the errors that I accidentally put in (I misread, my bad). I am going to make a few other changes because parts still read like a

_complex

14:43, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Hello, WLU. You have new messages at Tomcloyd's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

I have tweaked this by adding specific page nos. in the source which back up your assertion. One page (63) also points to the source documents for their summary conclusion, which is valuable for some people.

I'm trained in EMDR and have used it for years with great success. I had it myself (but not for PTSD, which I've never had), and it changed my life. I was very involved in the community for years, and while they're quite committed to science-based psychotherapy (as am I), they're also authoritarian and dogmatic (I'm referring to the cluster of people around Shapiro and the her EMDR Institute). I was kicked off their discussion list 3 times for insisting in greater objectivity and less autocracy. I finally walked away in disgust, and have been using EMDR, without eye-movements, for years.

This is a fairly important edit. While I didn't have the exact references immediately at hand, the edit you made today was definitely on my list of important revisions to the Treatment section. I took the trouble to make the citation more specific as insurance against the rabid-pro-EMDR crowd, which I know well. They might should up and re-edit the section. With this citation, that will be hard to do. Good work! Tom Cloyd (talk) 16:35, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Despite having an ISBN, it's ultimately a webpage, so I don't know how useful a page number is. I had been under the impression that EMDR is mostly pseudoscience, but it's possible that is based on the eye movement part (the remainder one source seemed to imply was actually fairly close to CBT). Your statements about the community suggests that source was right - nothing induces dogma like failing evidence. If people show up to edit towards a specific POV, the appropriate policies to cite are

_complex

19:17, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

With this sequence of diffs you removed material that I and removed, with justification on the talk page here. Even Verbal has called this source unreliable. Please read the talk page and respond. Thanks, Mitsube (talk) 22:11, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I meant your changes to the lead. It looks good and supports both sides of the issue. Silverseren^C 02:07, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, thanks for clarifying.

_complex

02:14, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

In short, the aforementioned edit is misleading and should be reverted or reworded. For one, Its students have recently ranked first place... is misleading, as the author's reference linked to outdated residency board results. The most recent (2009) is here. The columns are as follows:

• Estado = Mexican state
• Instituciones Educativas = Educational institution
• Inscritos = Those registered
• Sustentantes = (literally, sustained) Those who sat the exam and completed the residency process
• Seleccionados = Those selected
• Conocimientos Médicos = Medical knowledge
• Ingles = English comprehension
• Total = Total (Medical knowledge + English comprehension)

As stated in this pdf entitled Selection Methodology, prospective residents had the choice of choosing two specialties from a single block, and if selected got one of the two, depending on their ability demonstrated on the exam and how their peers placed. Afterward, students within each block were ranked first to last depending on their point total and that is how their placements were determined.

Although 64.62% of the those who completed the process were selected for one of their desired residencies and an average total score of 66.59 is relatively high, it seems that EMIS was surpassed in both regards by the

Hope that helps! Minnecologies (talk) 20:27, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome, no problem. Out of curiosity, I don't believe we've ever worked on anything together or had any prior correspondence, I'm wondering why you thought of myself for this little assignment? (Besides the {{User es-5}} tag on my profile.) Minnecologies (talk) 21:20, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Hello WLU

Thanks for your helpful suggestions.

We seem to still be beating around the bush on the issue I am trying to raise. I had a look at the history, which only deals with the Satanic Ritual Abuse Panic. While there are some people who were trying to use the panic page to talk about ritual abuse (or multiple assailant multiple victim abuse if we want to use the term that least resembles SRA). They seemed to be muddling the issue.

There does not seem to be agreement from mainstream scholars that there was anything to the satanic ritual abuse episode except a moral panic. The MAMV/MOMV/MVMP terms are seen as synonyms for satanic ritual abuse. Unless you have any mainstream, current sources indicating there's some scholarly interest in this, you're on the wrong page,

_complex

16:52, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

While the moral panic was a moral panic, basically a witch hunt, it does not detract from the well documented (both legally and academically) existence of ritualized, frequently inter-generational incest abuse rings, which are found throughout the world.

Again, wrong page - try

_complex

16:52, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

The term ritual abuse is used for these. (Although there is a push for it to be called ritual abuse/torture, now, as a result of the prevalence of methods of torture used in propagating the system. That would be both for creation of new "use" members and "user" members as well as the transitioning from one to another, where the tendencies of the group allow for it.) The spiritual nature of SOME ritual abuse cases has been know to take on a "satanic" bent, most likely the source of the knowledge contributing to the panic. This is however no different from "God doing it/being the source" and is in no way limited to the christian paradigm. I don't feel that it is necessary to harp on one particular methodology of abuse ring dynamics, nor do I think wikipedia is a place where we should be making a systemic abuser how to.

The term isn't used for them now, and there's no real uniting theme to be drawn together into a single wikipedia page. The whole "torture is used to perpetuate abuse/create DID alters/suppress memory" has not been substantiated and doesn't seem to be how memory works or particularly meritorious. It's a favourite of nonsense conspiracy mongering that people like to link to

_complex

16:52, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

You had mentioned the need to do a sockpuppet investigation. Please do. This is my first time taking an active role in wikipedia editing (although I've been reading for years).

I won't bother unless you keep pushing against

_complex

16:52, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

With regards to neutrality, I am a political philosophy student by training and a bureaucrat by employ. I will be diligent, I'm not looking to write a self help page nor harp on the subject, only inform.

Don't care. Sources are important, not people. Get sources, then we'll talk. Right now the sources pretty clearly substantiate SRA being seen as a moral panic. The page has a LOT of sources already.

_complex

16:52, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

sorry to be such a burden for you, I have little computer science background and this is a bit of a learning experience.

I would love to have a bit of mentoring and if I were to take this on, I imagine I would require it. Let me know if you are up to the challenge or if you know of someone who might please mark them out to me.

My only advice is to review the literature before suggesting or making substantial changes, particularly the more recent ones. I can't seriously be bothered to talk to someone who hasn't done so. Your entire set of discussions on the talk page only resulted in one tangential mention of a source published in the

_complex

16:52, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Many thanks for your support.

Kevinofnazareth (talk) 00:56, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your response.

We seem to still be stalling on the you thinking SRA and RA or RA/T are the same thing. They aren't. The SRA moral panic did huge damage to the study of treatment and recognition of abusies and legal pursuit of perpetrators involved in RA. I guess I will just draft the page and see if someone can help me en wiki it.

As far as I can find there are 2 peer reviewed journal articles that question ritual abuse, one which questions whether it should have its own category within abuse literature and happens to possess a logical fallacy within its opening statement, and the other is but a demographic analysis that lumps them in with alien abductees which, although not directly challenging its existence, is wrought with subtext. Neither of these is published in a peer reviewed journal, so as far as I can tell there is no challenge to RA within academic, peer reviewed or not (while a considerable amount about SRA and the moral panic, for which I have no interest in treating more than including a link to this page, which seems to take on the subject effectively). If you do have any (not SRA) I would like to be able to read them, in order to properly maintain neutrality.

Agreed, the journal of Psycohistory is a rag but given that the systemic abuse of children isn't very sexy (at least not to decent intelligent individuals) there is very little literature on the topic (outside of the court documents, and its prevalence within the development community, which are neither easily referenced nor particularly academic). The article in question however is well referenced and logically sound (although I would be reading it more seriously before using it as a reference given its source and most likely would simply find my own backing for its arguments).

sorry I seem to be having trouble getting the difference across.

Don't worry about your page, it has little coincidence with my topic.

I look forward to your comments once mine is up.

Thanks again for your help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevinofnazareth (talk • contribs) 23:32, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

RAT shows every indication of being simply a reboot of the SRA phenomenon, but with so much less buy-in it's not even a fringe hypothesis. The research base is tiny, and the same POV-pushing moron that was destroying the SRA page created the RAT pages multiple times against consensus using sockpuppets. The thing about "ritual abuse" is that there was never a need to create a separate category for it - child rape is child rape; torture is torture; conspiracy is conspiracy; there's no need to combine them into a new crime. The biggest harm the whole batch of nonsense ever did was create the impression that there was something "worse" than child abuse, and then drawing huge amounts of attention away from actual victims and risks. Thanks to the SRA panic, we've now got concerns over stranger-danger instead of incest and rape by friends of the family.

I don't know which two articles you are talking about - either link them, or give the titles, authors and years. If it's by Sarson and McDonald, I'm not interested. They're too fringe to be worth creating an article over.

If you are going to try to create a new page, I would suggest drafting it in your user space as a

_complex

01:42, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I promise to get back to you soon about the email (disclosure: this has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with activity on Wikipedia)

I'm curious if you have an opinion about this revamped article. There is a lot of energy being spent on this including an AN/I report and mediation that two mediators gave up on. This is what is expected to replace the article that was there. The problem is, at least from what I understand from AN/i is that one side of the debate has discontinued their activities at the mediation. You're really good at this kind of thing so I was just curious about what you thought of this new article that is still under contruction. I totally understand if you are too busy or you just don't want to for whatever reasons. Like I said, I was just curious about what you thought about it, like whether it is in compliance with policies and guidelines, or anything else you can think of. Be well my friend, I'll talk to you soon. Getting too tired right now to think clearly, --CrohnieGal^Talk 15:55, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

No worries about getting back to me, I rarely have things of import to say anyway.

Ugh, you don't pick the easy ones to look at, do ya? The best principles are, as always, the most basic ones - make sure the sources are new, secondary, high-quality, and cover the different viewpoints. My inadequate understanding of the issues is that intelligence testing isn't quite pseudoscience but is definitely problematic; using them to establish realistic, cross-race realities is at best fraught with difficulties and at worst seen as pretty much worthless for a large variety of reasons (the number of confounding factors alone makes the task pretty unrealistic, let alone the politics and racism involved). I think this is one of those cases where you have to tell both sides (there is/there isn't a difference between races) but I'm guessing the "there isn't" side will come out with the last word. Kinda like creationism and sexism, one side will have most of the science and scientific criticisms, making it more an issue of culture and society than actual science.

I'll leave the window open throughout the day and read through it to see if I can find anything really noteworthy to comment on. One thing I'll note - why is there a separate page for references? There's 70+ inline citations, the refs should be included as inline citations or removed. No need for a separate page. A second is that the

_complex

14:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not at all active on this and I'm not a sadist so I will continue to watch from afar! :) I just find that this whole mediation is going against what mediation is supposed to be like. Mediation is refused if editors say they don't want to be involved. This time editors excepted under different mediators, at least this is my understanding, but have dropped out since the last mediator took over, who by the way editors seem to have a problem with this editor being a mediator. So the mediation is almost down to the editors who agree with each other, minus a couple of comments here and there. It all seem very weird to me. I can't tell you why things are on separate pages. I don't understand why one editor was picked to rewrite the article to replace what is there. That really doesn't make sense to me. Also editors that never agreed to mediation are being told to go to mediation to talk out any edits that are disagreed with. Like I said, the whole thing seems weird and out of policy in some parts. Don't waste too much time on this, I was just curious about your main opinion of things like they are now. Be well, --CrohnieGal^Talk 15:10, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Crohnie, you have a point! I've wondered the same thing. The problem with doing this on a separate page is that it keeps the community at large from noticing what's going on. Many editors who watchlist the main page won't have the subpage watchlisted. Each edit should be subject to revision by the entire community, on the spot, in real time, just like on the main page. This practice violates the spirit, if not the letter of collaborative editing. I can understand this working on a very small stub article, or on a small section of some large article, but then it's usually done on the talk page, which involves all the editors who watchlist the article. That's the proper way to do it. Note that when this current subpage is used to replace the main article, every editor is justified in reverting the whole thing on the spot, and per BRD it must not be restored without discussion and consensus regarding each section, paragraph, sentence, word, and reference. IOW it should have been done the normal way, bit by bit. --

talk

) 01:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Mediation is nonbinding, and in my mind would be hard to do in general (in my case because I would immediately start reading about the topic, which would then read to becoming informed, parsing the sources, and from there becoming a biased party). In my experience, by actually doing the research, you end up able to contribute to the conversation and editing, eliminating poor sources and adding better ones, thus adhering to NPOV. The problem with many of these pages is that people come in with their opinions already set, and a lack of willingness to read more on the topic. NPOV says we portray the subject as represented in the sources - the only way to do this is to read the sources. Most people are apparently unwilling. I became the resident expert on satanic ritual abuse by reading literally thousands of pages on the topic - my only criteria is I don't read sources that are never going to make it on the page (but I will parse them for reliability to see if they have a chance to be used).

I could see why a single experienced editor would be picked to rewrite the article - if they showed a willingness to read and interpret the sources that gives attribution and neutrality without giving undue weight to the ones they agree with. In my mind that's a better way to work an article than mediation, one that has worked successfully in pretty much all my experience (satanic ritual abuse, bioidentical hormone replacement therapy, aquatic ape hypothesis, and probably a couple others if I dig through my archives).

I havn't looked into the mediation aspect at all - I don't think I've ever found mediation to be helpful as it's either invoked way too prematurely by a new contributor, or a roadbump on the way to arbitration for an experienced one. You can never substitute for an expert editor who is willing to put in the work and do the reading, and that's the most difficult thing to find given the aggravation they will have to put up with. Were I my druthers, I'd simply clone TimVickers and put him in charge of everything. Not only is he quite a looker, his ability to reference is sublime. I continue to stand by my belief that the best way to sort out any content dispute is a visit to a good university library.

BR, I will only venture in response to your comment, that sometimes it is fruitful to have a complete reboot and rewrite of a page, if for no other reason than to force a re-read by all parties. Not always, but sometimes. Also a big advantage of having a new editor enter the page - a read from top to bottom not only addresses a lot of issues that otherwise get ignored but also most experienced editors can see the neutrality and wording problems right away even without reading the sources themselves.

_complex

12:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree. New eyes see the problems in poorly written articles, which are often that way because they often evolve in response to edit warring. --

talk

) 14:34, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

(OD) You can get a good idea about how editors feel about this. You can see editors saying they don't like the mediation and will no longer be participating in it. I thought if editors stopped responding to a mediation case and stating so, that the mediation ended. Am I wrong about this? Also, I don't think the editor chosen to do the rewrite is a 'seasoned editor' with only 1,323 edits under their belt. This editor has been here for a long time though, so maybe this is a new account they are using? Like I said, I'm not involved but somethings are really hokey. Thanks guys :) --CrohnieGal^Talk 12:43, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

You said something about a sock? Well he edited again.Peppermint Chills 04:22, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I opened a sockpuppet case after research and his persistent edits.Peppermint Chills 07:07, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I screwed up and tried to move the IBD back to it's own article but instead I just reversed the redirect. Shoot, I did read up on this and thought I understood it all but obviously I didn't. I have asked for help on this in case you don't see this in time. Oh well, you always tell me to be bold. :) Though this time I think I was maybe too bold since I've never dealt with the move button nor any redirects before. I hope this is fixed before you see this! I hate to have to ask you to clean up my mess again. ;) --CrohnieGal^Talk 10:02, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I can't really tell what's going on - the issue seems to be relatively simple to resovle though. If IBD is not the same thing as IBS, just edit the IBD redirect to start a new article. The history seems to have been wiped out, all I can see is PatGallacher's creation of the redirect, which suggests that the page was erased by an admin.

Basically, if you want to get rid of the redirect and they are truly different things, click on the IBD page, you'll get redirected to IBS. At the top of the page you'll see something that looks like this:

(Redirected from

Irritable bowel disease

)

If you click on

Irritable bowel disease you'll be taken to Irritable bowel disease

with no redirect (the difference is in the address bar, which has &redirect=no at the end of it). Click on edit this page as usual, and you can create it, thus overwriting the redirect.

Based on the discussion at talk:IBS, it looks like irritable bowel disease is another term for

disambiguation

page. If there was a previous page that got deleted and you want the information back, you'll have to get it e-mailed to you by an admin. When a redirect gets overwritten, it must be basically deleted which wipes out the history. Once you recreate a deleted page, you can't tell what happened, who deleted it, or what the previous contents were unless you have admin powers. I can't really tell what happened since I don't have any

If Irritable BD needs to be created, then I'd suggest starting it on a

sub-page

and moving it over when you think it's adequate.

If you really want some substantive advice, I need to know what irritable bowel disease. A very short bit of digging suggests it's a less common name for irritable bowel syndrome. If it's a matter of redirecting it to inflammatory bowel disease, that's easy too.

_complex

13:15, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Well as I understand all of this, IBD is often confused as being IBS, even Dr.'s have made this error. My first GI couldn't get past the fact that I was previously diagnosed as a kid with IBS and it almost killed me 2001. So this is one reason why I don't think I should be the one to make the corrections. IBD stands for Inflammatory bowel disease not IBS. If you looke at the article Infammatory bowel disease I think you will see that is the case. Having the IBD article redirect to the IBS article is completely wrong. If there has to be a redirect then it should go to the Inflammatory bowel disease article. I have to admit after screwing up the move I did I am too paranoid now to try anything esp. with my strong POV about this. Like you, I can't see who or when this redirect was done but I am guessing vandalism, which I can't prove one way or the other. I just know that these two diseases are two separate things, so they shouldn't be redirected. I'm going to just give up on it with the hopes that someone else knows the difference and makes the correction. Sorry about wasting your time on this. Thanks though, --CrohnieGal^Talk 13:40, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Hm...part of the problem might be the mixing of acronyms and full words -

redirect. I've brought it up at WT:MED - Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Question_for_the_experts

, hopefully they can shed some light on things. Right now I'm leaning towards

• Irritable bowel syndrome
• Inflammatory bowel disease

But we'll have to see. That's a bit

_complex

13:59, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll go see if anyone has responded, thanks. IBD to me has always meant Infammatory bowel disease. I don't remember how the page was set us before. Thanks again, --CrohnieGal^Talk 17:16, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Now, by IBD do you mean the acronym, or the full term "irritable bowel disease"?

_complex

17:17, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

(od) I mean the acronym. I fear my pov is showing too strongly now and that maybe I should back out of the conversation going on. What do you think? --CrohnieGal^Talk 17:20, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

WP:BOLD

. Redirect it to the page you think is appropriate and see what happens. Honestly, there doesn't seem to be a right answer, or much of a wrong one. What was the reason for the move in the first place?

This isn't a very controversial decision, since it's not like I can find evidence that irritable bowel disease is really associated with either one. Probably the best thing you could do would be just dig a bit and see which one is more associated than the other. If there's no controversy in the medical literature, there can't really be a controversy here. If you're really concerned with people making a mistake, a DAB page might be the best option, but how to distinguish between them is an issue.

_complex

17:39, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I did a search using IBD vs IBS and got this as a result. Thoughts? Also, I don't think with my strong POV that I should make that bold move you suggest above. --CrohnieGal^Talk 17:58, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I just got chucked into the google main page, no search results...weird.

I'd suggest using the term "irritable bowel disease", do a bit of digging, and see if you can tell where it is most commonly used. If you're still not sure what to do, why not make it a disambiguation page? If you find sources that use as a term for both, just set up the page as I have above - it may be OR and NEO, but

_complex

19:15, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I received my copy of A TERRIBLE MISTAKE by H.P. Albarelli, Jr. and I have read most of it. I find the evidence presented therein compelling, and I note that the reviews have been excellent. Based on Albarelli's extensive research, I have added the following to the "Deaths" section of the MKULTRA article:

In his 2009 book, A TERRIBLE MISTAKE, H. P. Albarelli Jr. concurs with the Olson family and concludes that Frank Olson was murdered because he threatened to divulge state secrets concerning several CIA programs, chief among them Project ARTICHOKE and another code-named Project SPAN. Considerable evidence suggests that Project SPAN involved the contamination of food supplies and the aerosolized spraying of a potent LSD mixture in the village of Pont-St.-Esprit, France in August, 1951, which resulted in mass psychosis, 32 commitments to mental institutions, and four deaths. In his work as Acting Chief of the Special Operations Division at Detrick, Maryland (later Fort Detrick), Olson was involved in the development of aerosolized delivery systems, he was present at Pont-St.-Esprit in August, 1951, and several months before he resigned his position he had witnessed a terminal interrogation conducted in Germany under Project ARTICHOKE. ^[1]

Albarelli quotes several prominent researchers, including Edward Tinsley Chase, the author of the original book discussing the Pont-St.-Esprit case (THE DAY OF ST. ANTHONY'S FIRE) who have concluded that the Pont-St.-Esprit poisonings were deliberately caused. John Fuller, in particular, concluded that LSD was likely involved. Disparities between the known effects of LSD ingestion and the symptoms displayed by the Pont-St.-Esprit victims are viewed as likely the result of multiple delivery systems and complete lack of dosage control.

BTW, if anyone can clean up the formatting of my reference, that would be appreciated. Apostle12 (talk) 22:41, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi WLU, and thanks for fixing the source template...just something I haven't really learned how to do properly. As you may have noticed Tracer9999 deleted the Pont-St.-Esprit material, which I have now reinstated with a hybrid version of what you and I contributed. I believe we should not say that Olson was "thrown out" of the window, so chose to stick with "he exited" as the more neutral course. A few other tweaks....

The Olson story, as I read Albarelli's exhaustive treatement of same, emerges as a rather complex one that is difficult to tell succinctly. Multiple interviewees within the Fort Detrick community alluded to Project SPAN ("Pont" means "bridge" or "span) as having to do with the Pont-St.-Esprit incident. And Olson's presence there during the week following the incident is certainly indicative of some involvement. Albarelli argues that witnessing the suffering at Pont-St.-Esprit was likely the beginning of Olson's later moral crisis regarding the nature of his work for the CIA. Olson's distress was clearly communicated to his wife during the days following the unplanned LSD trip he took with colleagues under Stanley Gottlieb's direction. The chronology of events seems to be:

• Witnessed the Pont-St.-Esprit suffering in 1951.
• Witnessed a terminal interrogation in Germany in 1953.
• Took LSD with colleagues, during which "trip" they reported Olson becoming reflective and "sullen."
• After the LSD trip, communicated to his wife that he had "made a terrible mistake," which he did not detail.
• Quit his job on Monday, after the LSD trip.
• Started talking about state secrets to a number of people, which caused the CIA to assign him a "watcher" to limit the damage and prevent further indiscretions. They appear to have been especially concerned that he would divulge his knowledge of U.S. use of biological weapons during the Korean War.
• Olson's death occured the Friday following his resignation while at the New York hotel with the CIA "watcher." BTW, after Olson exited the window, the watcher placed a call that was overheard by the switchboard operator. The watcher said simply, "He's gone." To which the recipient of the call replied, "That's too bad." Then the call ended. The watcher changed his story several times as to what he was doing when Olson exited the window.
• Olson's death initially described as a "suicide."
• Olson's family devastated.
• Olson's family learned about Olson's participation in the LSD session.
• Olson's family initially blamed his "suicide" on the LSD.
• 1975 apologies from Ford and Colby, along with a financial settlement provided by an act of Congress
• 1994 exhumation of Colby's body, conclusion that it was a homocide
• 2002 official family statement concluding that Olson was murdered
• 2009 Albarelli's book making a clear connection with Project SPAN at Pont-St.-Esprit and Project ARTICHOKE

If you feel inspired, I do feel Albarelli did a good job tracking the story, though the book is not particularly well-edited.Apostle12 (talk) 18:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't like "exited" because it deliberately doesn't say either one, and it's just a poor word to choose (not anyone's fault, I agree we have to walk a line between saying he was thrown versus he threw himself, or something similar). "Exited" is such an unusual choice of wording that it really, really sticks out in the sentence, and the reader stumbles on it. Unfortunately, I can't think of an alternative! One option would be to say "(X says he was thrown, Y says he threw himself)" but you still have to lead with something like...exited. Bleah.

You really should try walking through the diberri template generator. Pick any book from google books, go to the book overview page, scroll to the bottom of the page and you'll see the isbn. Just copy and paste it into the template generator and you're done! Try it once, maybe twice, and you'll never do anything by hand again.

In your timeline, I assume 1994 refers to Olson, not Colby?

Yeah, I'm very unlikely to read the book - most conspiracy stuff doesn't interest me since there are so many accretions around the actual events you can rarely tell what happened. Plus, it looks like the publisher (for better or for worse) focusses on mostly conspiracy topics. MKULTRA only tickled my interest because a nutjob sockpuppet shoehorned in some nonsense on satanic ritual abuse. Still, if you have any editing, template or formatting questions I'm happy to help, and I'll get around to reading the current version in the next couple days. Thanks for the updates, I think the book is a much better source than any news reports, and appreciate you taking the time to read it!

_complex

19:14, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I just want to let you know I mentioned you in a discussion at the Crohn's disease articles talk page here. --CrohnieGal^Talk 17:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I’ll bet you a beer that User:Skycop12 is another sock of User:Dr.Jhingaadey. He shows up just days after Jhingaadey’s last sock was banned, bringing along with him the same long winded posts and immediate accusations of bias. — TheHerbalGerbil^(TALK), 01:18, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Maybe, could be worth launching an SPI case.

I'm always reluctant to simply dismiss people as a sock without responding in some way - that can justifiably give Wikipedia a bad name. But in most cases (as in this one) pointing to the policies and guidelines don't get you anywhere, and eventually you're justified in ignoring them. I reached that point at the end of my last comment.

Thanks for the FYI on the good Dr's use of socks, I'll keep an eye out.

_complex

01:54, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not yet convinced it's our Indian friend from Karnataka. From the location of the IP, which could be a logged out slip up, it could be

talk

) 05:48, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh, so instead of being one sock puppet, it's a different one. Well that makes it "better"

_complex

10:58, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder (unfortunately with my busy day, I am afraid that I forgot your previous message). Anyway, I went ahead and

Lets try a quarter year this time. — Kralizec! (talk) 19:52, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello, WLU. You have new messages at Tomcloyd's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

I'd be glad to look into your issue, but please forgive me, I'm extremely busy until Friday evening. If this is still a problem by then, then by all means I'll try to sort things out. · AndonicO ^Contact. 10:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and if indeed you want me to help out on Friday, please remind me, as I'll more than likely forget since I haven't had any non-automated messages on my talk page for an extremely long time, and I'm out of the habit of checking it. · AndonicO ^Contact. 10:37, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Ah sorry, I completely forgot to do this. I'll leave a tab open and take care of it asap (most likely tomorrow afternoon). · AndonicO ^Contact. 23:55, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I think in your recent comment you quote the Edzard Ernst review and the topic is actually this review, which the IP wants to inlcude. I could be reading your comment incorrectly, but it seems like it's not quite addressing the exact same issue. If I'm right, maybe you'd clarify? If not, please feel free to ignore me... — Scientizzle 14:45, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Just FYI, I was looking into swimming behavior in monkeys and happened across this paper: http://content.karger.com/produktedb/produkte.asp?typ=pdf&file=000252586, which may make a good resource for the page. The discussion of AAH appears on page 14, and takes the unusual view that the traits often claimed to be cause by aquatic life may instead have occurred first and only then led to in an increased tendency of humans/hominids to make use of aquatic habitats. Mokele (talk) 17:38, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

True, haven't had much internet access over the past couple weeks. I'll crunch the numbers over the weekend and get back to you regarding the validity of these statements early next week. Minnecologies (talk) 16:38, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Out of curiousity (again!), are you involved with an administrative aspect of WP that involves checking the validity of edits via checking sources? Or do you take interest in this article out of your medical association? I'd be interested in helping out with the former if anything such as existed, I don't spend much of my WP time looking around the admin pages so i have no idea. Minnecologies (talk) 16:57, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Nothing so laudatory - we're all volunteers working out of our own interests. This particular editor undertook some vandalism on an article I watch, and made a series of other subtly damaging edits to various other pages. I've since just been checking up on his/her edits out of stubbornness and irritation.

_complex

19:00, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Alright, sorry it's taken me awhile to get back to you, my internet has been permanently reestablished as of yesterday so communication shouldn't be an issue in the foreseeable future. From what I've determined, the statement: However, a careful evaluation of the overall performance (considering the last ten years) reveals that EMIS has the greatest percentage of students in a medical residency program in Mexico is true, considering that of all the medical residency programs that were evaluated continuously from 2001-2008, EMIS/ITESM had the highest percentage of placements at 71.35%. It was only surpassed by the military university, the Universidad del Ejército y Fuerza Aérea Mexicanos (sorry no equivalent English page), which was evaluated only in the period of 2001-2005 and had a placement percentage of 75.98%. Hope that helps! Minnecologies (talk) 16:15, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Continually posting and re-posting inappropriate images to an article with no discussion except a reference to WP:CENSOR is, in addition to anything else, just really, really annoying. It's not my fault you don't understand WP:CENSOR, so why should I have to clean up your mess. Stop it, and consider this a warning. Herostratus (talk) 20:11, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, I didn't see that you had to the talk page in tandem with your edit. I don't know how I missed that, and I shouldn't have. I was getting kind of tired of un-discussed revisions to this page, but yours wasn't one, sorry. As to the substance of your point, I will discuss that soon, when I get a chance. Herostratus (talk) 11:30, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I'll continue this on the

And there's the rub. The fact that long-term, undecided editors (or in my case, uninformed) who haven't come to the page with a pre-concieved opinion are walking away because of the aggravation, is a terrible thing. I'm not saying I'm a magic bullet, but I do think that if I had the time I could go a long way towards combing out the issues into something reasonably neutral and, if not perfect, then at least disliked by all parties equally. For CFS at least, the issue should be easy, if distasteful, to deal with by nearly anyone. The WPI I know next to nothing about.

What conflicting sides bring to articles that is useful is a list of references to support their points, and attack others. If those references are reliable, they should be integrated as point-counterpoint. What they bring that is not useful is the opinion that one side is right, and the other wrong, and a propensity to edit towards that opinion.

Kicking it to arbcom might be a good option. It's an interesting topic for anyone who is fascinated by medicine, and having a long-term editor with good access to the appropriate sources and a mandate to block, ignore or smack down opinionated, trouble-causing editors would doubtless help the page.

I'm thinking of course, of TimVickers; if only we could clone him. He's like magic pixie dust that makes your problems go away.

Were I retired, single and without cable television or a library card, I'd do it myself. But I know it's a deep pool to dive into, and I'm already swimming in other things that need to be done, here and in real life.

_complex

15:56, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

It's a shame that more editors are now leaving these articles to those with the disease thus a strong POV. That's why I backed out of the discussion about IBD for the most part because my POV is very strong in this area and I don't want to be annoying like I see in others like this. Good luck K in whatever articles you jump into. Just remember to try to find some that are fun for awhile. I had to do this myself for awhile because I was just getting stressed and not enjoying myself. --CrohnieGal^Talk 18:19, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I'm enjoying myself a surprising amount on wikipedia these days, even as my activity level increases. Not sure why.

It's funny that we have

_complex

18:30, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I suspect administrators aren't to happy to jump into this is because of all the garbage already going on at some of the hot zone articles like Climate change and Race and intelligence articles and associated articles. I've been just watching these and a lot of administrators are involved in trying to settle things down but they too are destined for a special arb case I fear. I think administrators want to do some actual editing at times and these types of articles are big time sinks. I know one administrator stepped away from the CC articles so he could remember why he was here again, to write articles. Another good administrator has also stepped back from his administrator duties. I have great respect for both of the administrators and understand why they are burned out and taking a break from being an administrator. Oh yea, another one gave his tools back after a long process. This seems to be happening a lot more frequently with the good administrators. I just know you won't see me involving myself in any arbcom messes. :) --CrohnieGal^Talk 18:41, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

No homeopathy. Pity.

Thanks for that, I'll review the full text later today.

_complex

20:36, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I would welcome an independent and experienced editor getting involved in these pages. I came here to thank you for some of your remarks. Also because given the anger around this issue, I felt that it would be better if I left these pages alone and focus on my other interests, and hence post here. However, I was quite upset by some of the continuing comments and opinion here based on hearsay. Can I ask you to reread some of the comments on the ANI, etc. and substitute descriptions like "black", Jew" for CFS patient and see how they sound to you? I hope we would all universally condemn these first two at least. But why then tar all people who happen to have CFS with the same condemnations, with same actions and the same motivations as some continue to do for other people with a common race or religion for example? Any educated person struck down by an illness, especially one where the current medical policy is that there is no cost effective treatment or diagnosis would read widely and research the illness for his or her own sake -- and if already a WP editor, then he or she might be able to take an interest in such pages. And yes, the editor's posting rate might well go up but that could just be as a result of being bed-bound with lots of free time and no longer being able to work 60 hours a week.

Any criticism here on Wikipedia should be based on actual evidence -- and the substantive evidence in this case is quite clear: the content of the talk pages and the dialogues that they contain, and edit content on articles. Even a swift examination of this content reveals that many of these claims made are simply not supported by a shred of direct evidence. For example, do I have a fixed POV? No. Do I always edit to a POV? No. Am I continually "attacking" editors? No. Very occasionally my comments have been more heated than I should allow, but always based on content, WP polices, guidelines and their interpretation, not on any fixed position. Please make similar assessment of the other "branded" editors. So my request is that anyone intending to get involved in the CFS and XMRV related articles should please scan last 3 or so talk pages / archives for the relevant article and form any opinions based on their content and not on hearsay and opinion which hasn't been supported by a single content quote or diff. Thank-you. -- TerryE (talk) 15:42, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah...I won't be that experienced, independent editor. I'm very sure that I could do a good job (if I didn't lose my temper and call everyone involved morons before leaving in disgust) but I don't have the time or energy right now.

As for the treatment of CFS patients being comparable to racism or antisemitism. That's a loaded gun that I'm staring down the barrel of. Here are my comments. I'm sure there are assholes and lovely people who have CFS. Guido den Broeder was, in my experience, an unmitigated asshole who did little but start fights. However, a friend of mine's mother, who is utterly lovely, gentle and pleasant, has also been diagnosed with CFS. It's a vague disorder of exclusion with an unknown and uncertain etiology and a highly disupted set of treatment protocols which really piss some people off, and with good reason since it looks like sneaky victim-blaming from doctors and researchers. Yet for some people, it works. I won't be re-reading any comments because I know the kind of stuff that's out there, and I see both sides of it. CFS patients have had most of their lives torn from them because of symptoms most people won't take seriously. The rest of the world sees people with no visible medical problem and no coherent etiology forming large organizations that advocate for better treatment of CFS - which that large group of people see as belying the complaints of extreme fatigue. So yeah, CFS patients get labelled as "just lazy", CFS patients label doctors as "uncaring assholes who think I'm crazy" and everyone gets mad and sees themselves as justified. From my perspective, this is all a function of the poor research base for all aspects of CFS. Hell, I'm betting a substantial minority of CFS patients have something other than CFS that just hasn't been found yet.

But I don't care about any of that; more accurately, I think there's a place for that as sourced information on the main page. Prominently sourced at that. Guido didn't have to be an asshole about editing, but he was. RetroS1mone was, in my experience, overly committed to the idea that CFS is purely psychological (not as big an asshole as Guido, but certainly as stubborn and doubtless as frustrated). This led to both sides polarizing and digging in rather than accepting compromise and neutrality. And the whole thing was, and is, stupid because the best way to deal with this is again the god-damned sources, of which there are plenty. But no-one on either side seems to see that both sides have heavily documented complaints, and all points of view should be represented. People kept trying to assert a binary position of "yes it's physical/no it's not". Well frankly, everyone should fucking quit it. THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT CFS IS, HOW IT DEVELOPS OR HOW TO TREAT IT. Suck it up, both sides, until they know more the only uniting theme to the CFS pages is that everything is controversial. Document the existing positions, the counter-claims and criticisms, and accept that you'll have to see your own position criticized, just like you get to criticize the other side.

In summary, I think pretty much everyone is wrong. I think both sides need to back away, calm down, and not ask if the other side is

proselytize

. No-one is right, no-one has the answer, and everyone will have to live with that. Guido's lack of compromise cast a long shadow that made it hard for everyone involved to work together long after he was banned. Rather than trying to figure out if X or Y is a good person, ask if their edits are well sourced.

And for the love of Jebus, whenever some new "miracle" (i.e. theory) gets reported, people should leave off trying to present it as a cure. It is going to take decades to sort this all out. DECADES. Sure as hell ain't gonna be next week.

You really want my opinion? Everyone shouldn't review the last three pages. The current talk pages should be archived, buried, and ignored. The CFS pages should be revisited with a fine-toothed comb. The best sources should be kept. The worst discarded. The ones in between discussed to determine whether they are sufficiently reliable to remain. Everyone should start digging through pubmed and requesting sources up the yin-yang. Then build your page, accepting that stuff you aren't going to like is going to end up on the page, but make sure your criticisms are adequately sourced. Start with the body, then work on the lead, and don't write from either the doctors' or patients' perspective. Years ago, I believe I added to the CFS lead "nearly everything about the condition is controversial". I still think that stands, and I think it is the source of most of the acrimony. But everyone has to be grown-ups and admit that the sources take precedence over their own opinion.

_complex

17:46, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your considered reply. I can understand why you don't want to touch this one with a barge pole. Emotions can run high on subjects like this one. However, I guess that I must just come from a different generation to many editors. I just don't see why we have to be continually abusive to each other. It just gets so tedious. Comments should always be polite and informed by evidence, not hearsay, and the subject at hand should be kept to the article content and the sources which underpin it. When someone makes a point or raises an issue then we should try to respond constructively and directly, attempting to move forward rather than ignoring the dialogue, waiting a few weeks then reverting content back to old positions.

I also really don't see what the problem is with "controversy" if we stick to these principles. Surely if there are two views to a line of research then what on earth is wrong with presenting both in an unbiased, proportionate and encyclopaedic way? Why do we need to massage source content to emphasise one opinion, or to attempt to remove a subset of sources because they are "wrong"?

I also agree that reliving history with a view to retribution is rarely constructive and that a clean slate is often the best way to move forward, which is one of the reasons why I also want to step away from these articles. However, any references to past editorial actions and motives should still be based on actual evidence and not on dogma. I think that you would agree with these principles, as I agree with yours. -- TerryE (talk) 23:19, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

You don't have to be continually abusive to each other. A bunch of new editors arrived at the same time. Guido was at that time still active and being a terrible example, as well as polarizing the group through antagonism. People got into habits, settled into sides, and just kept sniping. And you shouldn't bother with past actions if you actually want to move forward. Since both sides have a point, both sides should listen to each other.

Have a look at

single purpose account

is trying to push an idea that is no supported by the literature. My approach is again, sources and policies - but since the other editor basically doesn't have a substantial point or the appropriate sources to back up his/her assertions, I also use too much sarcasm.

Guiding principles - what sources are there? How many are there for each point of view? What criticisms exist? And for CFS, what do the patient voices (I would suggest primarily in terms of what patient groups say) say? And finally, in all cases, what policies and guidelines apply, and how do they affect the use of the sources? NPOV doesn't bar one side or the other unless there is only one article adopting that particular point of view, OR prevents people from analyzing the sources themselves, MEDRS gives you a cut-off of quality and type (secondary) that would prevent most primary literature from being used. Keep hammering in those points, and accept that you're going to see edits that you don't like, and maybe the page will move forward.

_complex

10:53, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

"New Editor"

I'm the "new editor" on Abram Hoffer. Actually, not so new--I've lurked for years-- almost from the first, in fact. After lurking for a bit, my first posting was in 2006 and some of my earlier posting were on the policy pages. Know the rules and practices here quite well and follow them. By chance, I happen to be an expert on the issue in question-- Not claiming "Trust me, I'm a doctor", but the expert's advantage of knowing the literature and what it means. Unfortunately, " You're just some expert with a POV who doesn't know the rules " seems to be a common straw arguement here on wikipedia.

From my point of view, I am merely trying to inject a little NPOV into another-wise completely biased hatchet job in a quite politicised area. No OR and no POV-pushing. I have provided links, cites ad nausem, to published reviews in the main-stream medical literature. Alas, to no avail, except to be accused of things I am simply not doing, like the above. At the same time other editors get away with murder in the same article. Visit Abram Hoffer for a little go t different view. Drjem3 (talk) 04:46, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Just got an "edit war" warning from WLU about Abram Hoffer. IIRC, this only refers to reversions of other's edits and not to modifications of one's own work. Anyway, I'm obviously just responding to issues raised in the now rather voluminous discussion pages, demands for cites and the like. Just like I am supposed to do, after discussion and all. Clearly, I've been sand-bagged--- If you don't want me posting the material you ask for, don't ask for it. Or change my posting after further discussion. I'm really getting tired of this. Drjem3 (talk) 05:32, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

No-one here cares, it's quite apparent you don't understand the rules and if you keep it up you'll get blocked. I've been polite and repeatedly, at length, explained the issues. You are providing the wrong citations. That is the issue.

_complex

11:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

I understand the rules quite well. Anyway, well enough to understand you are misusing them for POV-pushing. There seems to be a lot of that over anything that has to do with "alternative medicine" --- whatever that is, when 17% of all prescriptions are written "off-label". I am just trying to introduce the main-stream view-- namely, that nothing is that simple. Also see confirmation bias.

The view that the medical profession has concerning Dr Hoffer is rather different from the one expressed in the article. Perhaps you are right and the Docs are wrong. But both sides should be presented for NPOV. To give balance to the article, I am merely presenting this alternative view. Well-documented from the medical and scientific literature, naturally. Your are welcome to presenty your own material, naturally. Such one sided-views as you present are specifically-forbidden in biographies, as you well know.

If you do not agree with the citations that I present, argue them, present your own material, etc.. But do not threaten to have me banned for simply disagreeing with you and your posse. BTW, my compliments on the slick way in which you suckered me into inadvertantly doing three reverts. Normally, I would not have done this. But, " assuming good will ", I reasonably-believed you invited me to post. OTD Drjem3 (talk) 01:49, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

It is quite obvious that you do not understand the rules, or you wouldn't be breaking them. My issue has been your use of a primary source to push a secondary point, follwoed by a third (or fourth, or fifth) citation to produce a

synthesis

that should be verified with secondary sources. You obviously do not understand this point, or you would not be making these edits.

If you can represent the views of "medical professionals" with reliable, secondary sources, you should do so. If you consider your own opinion to be a reliable source for this type of information, you are wrong. The view of Dr. Hoffer is obviously a complicated one, with some recognition for his biochemical work, and a whole lot of disdain for the orthomolecular approach he later adopted. Whether the disdain for the approach spilled over onto Hoffer himself, or whether he simply faded out once he entered private practice and started publishing in the echo chamber of alternative medicine, the ghetto of orthomolecular journals or the self-stimulatory avenue of vanity press and fringe publishers, I'm not sure (certainly his publication record ends up being less than impressive, [10], [11] and substantially in venues using the words "orthomolecular"). I have demonstrated why the citations you are using are inappropriate, and adding more inappropriate citations merely compounds, rather than addresses, the problem. The issue is not that high-dose niacin is a valid treatment for hyperlipidemia. The issue is that Hoffer apparently co-discovered the phenomenon, but it was developed by others; though he gets some credit for its discovery, he should not get credit for it being a current treatment modality since from what I can tell, no-one says "Hoffer went on to develop this into an intervention for heart disease". Nor does he appear to be responsible for including a statin. The citations you present, like this one, and this one, don't discuss Hoffer at all - the first doesn't even mention his name in the references, and the second merely cites the 1955 journal article. This is

synthesis

, and a POV-pushing one at that.

I did not "threaten to have you banned". For one thing, a

3RR noticeboard

and after a review by an independent admin, they would decide whether a block was warranted. Totally above-board, totally third-party, totally independent of my control. I did not "sucker" you into breaking the 3RR - for one thing, I don't believe the 3RR was broken. For another, I did not make you revert as many times as you did. For a third, you are not currently blocked and indeed, without the warning notice I dropped on your page, you wouldn't be blocked. I am required to give you that warning before I can report you for breaking the 3RR. And for that matter, it had the desired effect - you didn't break it from what I can tell (but I've been busy and haven't edited much for the past two days).

Again, all this demonstrates that you are not familiar with the rules, and certainly not as much as you think you are. When I have time, I will undertake the slow process to gather and use citations about Abram Hoffer to improve the page, and will remove the two unrelated articles about high-dose niacin treatment (as well as the execrable coatrack about vitamin C treatment). We'll deal with it from there I suppose.

_complex

16:02, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

(←) I just came across this post while browsing, and only read up to the New Editor subsection, since it seemed to go off on a tangent after that. I realize that this may be a moot point by now, but I just wanted to say that I think that if you exclude reaction to the occasional bout of POV-pushing, you'll find that by and large there is no acrimony. Now, I say this right after a bunch of us got a little riled up at the suggestion that the page be renamed to Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, but if anything, I think that's a demonstration of the current editing mindset of the editors of CFS-related pages: there's very much an attitude of hard-line neutrality now, where everyone has really "dug in" to the middle, regardless of their personal POV. The current set of editors don't let much of anything get posted to the articles unless it's very well sourced, or at least debated to consensus on the talk page and proven to meet MEDRS and other appropriate guidlines. Anything that even remotely resembles POV-pushing now gets slapped down...hard...no matter which POV is being pushed (the case mentioned above being a prime example, since it's normally the biological side that favours the ME terminology, and I think it's fair to say that most of the current CFS editors personally lean towards a biological etiology).

My hope in drawing a neutral admin to the article, which seems like it'll never happen, is to once and for all get someone to see that the editors of CFS articles are not the big baddies that a very small number of people paint us as. But what really gets on my nerves is that whenever we "do the right thing" and do our best to maintain article neutrality against the POV-pushers, we're the ones who get accused of wrongdoing. As a personal example, take this edit, which undid 9.5 months of contributions to the article with no discussion and resulted in this re-reversion (and accusation in the edit summary) and this discussion accusing me of the crime that I had actually reverted, as well as a reiteration of supposedly being an SPA. Why did I get accused of mass reversion and being a single-purpose account? Because I undid a single edit that reverted 200 or so edits en masse on an article I had never contributed to previously and had absolutely no opinion about. And people wonder why my user page says what it does. —RobinHood70 ^{(talk • contribs)} 01:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the support there, I guess some people are not interested in building an encyclopedia. If you would like a copy of the paper he is 'referencing' I can email it to you. Dbrodbeck (talk) 22:16, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not going to waste my time - I have no doubt that he's merely trying to adopt a veneer of respectability in order to string the community on for longer. There's nothing of merit there, I'm frustrated that s/he hasn't been permablocked, but it'll come. Watch for sockpuppeting, because that should lead to a block of at least a year, if not permanent. The thing is, a legitimate editor who has just made a couple mistakes would spend more time editing and less time edit warring. That 90% of his/her edits are just to insert the same text we know is bullshit, is the best indicator that s/he's here to troll, not contribute.

_complex

22:22, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Thought I would offer though :-) You know, I wonder what motivates people. Dbrodbeck (talk) 22:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I think there's actually an essay on that somewhere - try clicking on the links in

_complex

22:53, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

So does the ability to pack angels on pinheads depend on the dance? Can they jitterbug or gavotte as densely as they tango? Surely we have an article on this somewhere! ;-)

Angels exist solely in the mind of humans, just like homeopathy. Both should be placed in

_complex

22:57, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Hey don't knock my allusions of the pretty angels coming to watch over me. <BG> --CrohnieGal^Talk 11:25, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

So long as they don't dance, you'll hear nary a peep from me.

_complex

12:50, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

We're fine then, mine just flutter a little. :) --CrohnieGal^Talk 20:51, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Please do not change real citations to these, as you just did at

Hm...thanks for the notice. I had thought that they were useful because they sped up the page load for heavily templated pages (and are absurdly easy to put in place). I may get around to reviewing the template talks, in the meantime I'll use diberri to replace the full cite journal templates.

_complex

17:39, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I grant the templates are seductively easy to use too. But they definitely make the wikicode less robust. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:54, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Drat! I gave you bad links. Earlier discussion was at User_talk:Citation_bot#Talk page blanking and before that in several threads on User_talk:Citation_bot/Archive 1. Admittedly not the best place. I should probably take the time to formulate a redux with links to all the earlier posts and check if everything said is still accurate. There was a proposal at one time to semiprotect all the subpages, which would help a bit. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:47, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the updated links, I'll look into them if/when I have time. May I suggest a section in the talk pages directing to those discussion? And frankly if it's that bad and the community doesn't support them, they should be disabled. As soon as I saw them their utility was so great I started substituting on a variety of pages right away.

I would actually advocate for full protection of all those pages rather than semi - any changes that need to be made should just need it once and you'd be done. Semiprotection still allows autoconfirmed users to edit, which lets dedicated vandals still do damage. Still think it's a great idea.

_complex

20:02, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the /doc talks about not replacing {{cite journal}} with {{cite doi}}. One option is to subst the template:cite doi once the template subpage has been bot populated, thereby replacing it with the more legible cite journal. That too is discussed on the /doc. LeadSongDog come howl! 20:39, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure you're just having a blind spot and have the best intentions in thinking that

Mercury and lead are toxic heavy metals with scientifically well-defined side-effects and means of

_complex

11:42, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Response on

Talk:Body cleansing. Greenman (talk

) 13:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Look, you are wrong to lump in Marshall's work with creation science, the moon landing, and other pseudoscience. Why has he twice chaired sessions at the world's largest gathering of researchers and scientists who study autoimmunity? Why has a paper he co-authored been rated a "must read" by the prestigious literary awareness tool, Faculty of 1000 Medicine?

I deleted the Mark London article, because Mr. London misrepresents key points of Marshall's statements. This is a personal page by an uncredentialed person who has done a poor job of researching the Marshall Protocol.

The Marshall article can be skeptical, but let's please use sources of a minimum standard. --Palbert (talk) 04:27, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Moved to the bottom per

talk page guidelines

.

The Marshall protocol has a shaky research base. It's presupposition, that somehow bacteria can inhabit human cells, particularly human immune cells, for years, is an extreme claim. The microscope has been around for centuries, the electron microscope for decades. In all that time, no-one has noticed these cells colonizing the cytosol of our immune system? And this is the cause of all disease? And the treatment is low-dose, pulsed antibiotics? Unlikely. Marshall's idea is based on a few computer simulations, a few uncontrolled trials, and now it's a revolution requiring blood levels of vitamin D that predispose one to cancer, osteoporosis and possibly deficiency disease? Also unlikely. It's only been around a couple years and hasn't been replicated. PARITY on medical articles puts it with Linus Pauling's vitamin C-cure for cancer work, biologically plausible to the layperson, but taken seriously only by a group dedicated to it a priori.

If not the London article, some sort of criticism should be appended. Mark Crislip has also criticized the protocol twice on sciencebasedmedicine.org, here and here. I'd be open to including them, but there should be something indicating the ideas are suspect on pretty basic grounds.

_complex

11:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Though I appreciate the comments from everyone - I really do, confidence that someone would make a good admin is the best one you can get around here - it's simply not going to happen right now. The many votes of confidence are flattering, but ultimately futile at this moment. Thank you to you all though, it's better than a barnstar!

HELP! I have no idea how to engage in a discussion with someone called WLU who made changes to the LLLT pages. I clicked on the WLU talk page and find myself here. I am tempted to erase all changes to that page made this year but suspect that is bad wikipedian behaviour. I need someone to hold my hand so I can do the right thing but how do you let me know you have read this ? all I can think to do is give you my email address and ask you to contact me. <redacted>@<redacted>.com and tell me what to do next. frustrated with not knowing how do this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Academia salad (talk • contribs) 10:35, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Moved to bottom of the page per

talk page guidelines

.

I'm WLU, you're on my

reverting

would be bad behaviour, particularly since I've articulated why the changes would be problematic and why I made the changes I did.

You should start by reviewing my comments on the talk page. Then you should read the core content policies on

tutorial, and perhaps the essay

I wrote for new editors.

You have not said why you want to erase all my changes - I would suggest bringing it up on talk:LLLT.

_complex

17:58, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi, just curious but did you notice that you got autoviewers rights? I did too. :) The flag revision stuff is on it's way. --CrohnieGal^Talk 15:29, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I didn't even know what it was until I looked it up just now. Flattering!

Looks like they've implemented tiered editing. I remember that being a big controversy years back, guess they've given in. Makes sense, but I'd still like absolute power to block at will.

_complex

16:03, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Hello! Your edit on June 12 to Medical Hypotheses added a ref name "Bad Science" without adding an actual source. Would you please revisit the article and add the source you intended? Thanks. - Salamurai (talk) 18:04, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Oops, thanks. Fixed it - was a reference to Ben Goldacre's work.

_complex

20:40, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Please note an additional revision; I condensed the first paragraph in "Controversy" because it was a bit redundant. Instead of two sentences repeating that investigators failed to prove Livingston's hypothesis (re:PC), I threaded it one segued sentence/first paragraph. I think the article reads well overall. Ronsword (talk) 17:01, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll look at it in a bit.

_complex

17:28, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

And also please note a few suggestions concerning the "Clinical Testing" section, and particularly, statements made by Cassileth as per her

NEJM article. Tnx Ronsword (talk

) 22:49, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, again I will look into it when I make the time.

Please review the

_complex

22:56, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure either of us has really understood Bruce's central concern, but you might be interested in the note I left on his talk page (I started writing before your edits). I know it can be frustrating dealing with misguided contributors – and I'm sure you've done it many, many more times than I have – but please do try to be as civil as you can. I think Bruce's intentions here aren't fundamentally that different to yours or mine, to the extent that unlike a vandal, spammer or company hack, he's volunteering his time to make what he believes to be improvements to Wikipedia.

Anyway, on a completely unrelated note, the new talk page system I mentioned last night is liquid threads. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 16:29, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I normally don't mind dealing with people pushing a POV. In fact, disputes tend to produce a better page - more thorough, better sourcing, clearer wording, and for FRINGE stuff, more clearly supporting the mainstream opinion. But BS' twofold complaint (HIV/AIDS is unsustainable on wikipedia because it's unsustainable in real life, and the lack of real names somehow is part of the problem and the conspiracy) is so baseless on scientific and wikipolicy grounds, it actually angers me. I loathe liars who conjour science to grant credibility they haven't earned; freeloaders who adopt the garb and pretenses of science without substantively engaging with the methods, rigor and self-correcting community that make science actually worth something. He doesn't understand. He's read something he likes, and is now using it to try to drub something into wikipedia, something so patently recognized as fucking nonsense, someone actually wrote a book about how it's fucking nonsense. I think BS' intentions are very much both fundamentally different from ours, and fundamentally opposed to several of wikipedia's core policies and guidelines (FRINGE, UNDUE, NPOV, MEDRS for starters). Bruce is wrong - simply, flatly, unambiguously wrong, when it comes to HIV/AIDS. He, and everyone else who believes what he believes, are not just wrong (creationism is wrong and pisses me off, but not to the same degree) but are fundamentally culpable for the decimation of a continent, the rape of children, unnecessary wanton suffering and death, all because gay sex makes them feel squicky or they're afraid of an unknown (which is now known).

I consider my discussions quite civil - in none of these sorts of frustrating conversations do I use the words "fucktard", "ignorant cunt", "goddamn murdering retard" or "dipshit arrogant sonovabitch who should go out and catch AIDS and try treating it with vitamins, you shitforbrains moron". I'm pointing out that his POV-pushing contributions and suggestions are both misleading, misguided, misunderstand some of our (admittedly esoteric) policies and some freely-available science which really isn't that difficult to grasp. And rather civilly considering both how I feel, and how utterly wrong he is. That he's trying to take a

didactic

approach rather than simply and plainly identifying the purported problem is also irksome - unjustified arrogance pisses me off (justified arrogance I can handle). If BS manages to make his "improvements" on wikipedia, it will demonstrably make things worse - and do so in the only lying way any AIDS denialists can. By misleading the public through the adoption of a facade that has been co-opted from something truly great. So fuck him.

End rant.

I appreciate that you're trying to educate him. That's important - either he'll stop pushing a totally unsupported bullshit ideology (which is good) or it'll be the start of an accumulation of evidence that concludes with him being permanently blocked from editing. I don't care either way, so long as he never touches an HIV-related article again, and stops wasting my time on talk pages as well. You're doing good here, and I heartily approve. Personally, I've reached my limit (actually, that limit was passed in April). The patient attempt to explain just why he's wrong should be done. But not by me, and I don't think it'll ever change his mind. Doesn't matter, eventually with enough rope he'll hang himself. The superficial explanations for his edits, improperly justified by reference to misinterpretations of policies, indicates he's not here to improve wikipedia, learn our policies or play by the rules - he's here to edit towards a viewpoint. I've tried explanations with heavy reference to the P&G, and it didn't help. Now I'm done and all I want is that his edits and points are revealed for their utter lack of justification.

OK, now the rant is over.

Thanks for the liquid threads comment, I'll try to understand what it is (a quick browse didn't tell me much and the videos aren't loading up in a useful way right now). And congratulations on your first publication! I envy you hugely - I edit wikipedia as an informed amateur because I lacked the wherewithal to get an advanced degree. A peer-reviewed journal article is something to brag about :)

_complex

17:48, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

All I meant by the intentions comment is that, whereas vandals, spammers and corporate hacks know what they're doing is evil but do it anyway, pov-pushers at least believe themselves to be on the side of the light, however wrong they may be. But I understand AIDS denialism is a very wrong and very, very dangerous ideology, as 300,000 South African ghosts can attest. I'm also interested in the misuse of science – I follow Bad Science and Butterflies and Wheels – though the people who really make my blood boil are those that deliberately use their talents for cold, calculated evil.

The idea that underlies my interactions with new(ish) editors, including the problematic ones, is that if I can encourage just one contributor who would otherwise have left, been banned, or whatever, to instead become a productive contributor who then goes on to benefit the project the same amount that I have, then I've doubled the net benefit my existence has had on Wikipedia. You're probably right that Bruce won't change his mind about HIV/AIDS, though my (possibly naive) hope is that because we've had positive interactions previously, and because I edit with my real name, he won't see me as part of the cabal or whatever and will at least consider what I've written. FWIW, I'd somehow neglected to watchlist Bruce's talk page and hadn't realised where he was coming from until this week. I actually feel quite foolish for my earlier endorsement of Inventing the AIDS Virus... Guess I'm so used to thinking science articles just need copyediting and that NPOV is an issue for articles on companies and people, it hadn't even occurred to me he might have been a denialist.

Anyway, thanks for the congratulations – though I fear they may be premature! I need to convince the journal editor my work is interesting, plus 2 or 3 reviewers that it's scientifically sound. Fingers crossed. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 07:45, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I love Bad Science, but one of the few blogs I check daily are sciencebasedmedicine.org and Respectful insolence. I highly recommend them. Also, if you haven't read it, Goldacre's book of the same name (which really just collects and expands on some of his articles) is delightful. As is Gary Taubes Bad Science about cold fusion. I'll definitely check out butterflies and wheels.

I used to be a problematic editor (check out the archives of Talk:Terry Goodkind) and I was redeemed, but I also managed to read the policies and realized that my actions were problematic. IM(ns)HO if they don't show any indication of reading and understanding the policies and guidelines in short order (and BS goes a step further in that he tries to game the policies) then they go into the same bucket as spammers and vandals. Believing yourself to be doing good, when you're clearly, clearly, clearly not (AIDS denialism and creationism are so clearly absurd, and so easily revealed as such, that anyone who bites of that apple deserves poison) is a notion that needs rapid disabusing. With prejudice. If you haven't realized just how god-damned stupid these topics are with all the easily accessible, easily located, easily read resources on the internet, you're not going to change your mind and you shouldn't edit here. I continue to approve of attempting to work with BS, but I'm still not the one to do it. I wish you luck, but you may ultimately want to take it to e-mail as that's almost certainly a long slog. If you haven't already seen it, this page seems about as handy for AIDS denialism as the talk.origins index to creationist claims is for creationism.

I'll cross my fingers for your paper and hope for the best. I'm assuming it's in

_complex

13:37, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Just a note to say thanks for de-spamming the iodolipids stuff. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I may have been overzealous in my trim of other pages so I'll go back tomorrow to check. But yeah, the stuff being inserted by Venturi about Venturi was excessive speculative spam - the book I found gives idiolipids a very speculative role that looks like it's just starting to be explored. Dubious whether it's important enough to be in the

_complex

01:03, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Great job rewriting

No problem, particularly considering I mostly deleted stuff. If you're interested in that, you may want to check out

body cleansing and in particular the talk page - I'm thinking of merging all cleansing/detoxification/enema/quack diet pages together into detoxification (alternative medicine)

, and would love some comments and opinions.

Of course, if I

_complex

15:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

If you have time, I'd appreciate your input here. If you don't have the time/inclination, don't worry - I understand. --sciencewatcher (talk) 14:38, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Fucking hell, again? Fucking hell.

_complex

14:58, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think I could have said it better! ;) --CrohnieGal^Talk 16:51, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I understand people get strong opinions about their conditions - he says to the account named after a diagnosis! - but you don't get to rename or edit something simply because you agree with it. I wish I could write "Verifiability, not truth" on a stick, and mail it to people to hit themselves with. Suck it up, they're still not sure what CFS is - and that's something we'll have to live with. Everyone, myself included, is looking forward to the day when they figure it out.

I can see why you don't want to edit the CD page much, though I'd like to think you'd do a better, more neutral job. Have you had a look at

_complex

17:31, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Hey is this a dig at me? "he says to the account named after a diagnosis"  :) <jk> Though I have gotten attacked for my user name before which is sad to me. I will look at the article. --CrohnieGal^Talk 17:09, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with your removal of external links from the "Helminthic Therapy" article. It's true that the therapy isn't FDA approved yet but over 200 people have already tried helminthic therapy with excellent results and clinical trials are taking place all over the world. The external links you removed contain a lot of information regarding this therapy. Please explain why you think these links shouldn't be there. If I don't hear from you, I'll revert the edit. Thanks.OmegaGX (talk) 10:07, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Per

medically reliable sources

(review articles published in medical journals - at least none that I could find on pubmed, and the research base seems to have dropped off more than a little).

I removed five external links:

• http://www.hygienehypothesis.com/ - this is a short webpage about the hygiene hypothesis, not helmnithic therapy specifically, that contains no references and numerous advertisements.
  WP:ELNO
  points 1, 2, 5, 13
• http://www.helminthictherapy.com/ - this one is pretty lengthy with a lot of sources - it would be the most likely to be included. Yet still, it promotes the therapy; there is no official site, no CDC, NIH or FDA sites about it. This is really the nub of the problem - as an unproven, unapproved therapy, every single website is essentially a promotion tool of an either pseudoscientific, or protoscientific concept (depending on if it's ever proven or not). The worms are parasites, and it's not proven that they actually help.
• http://www.asthmahookworm.com/ - this appears to be essentially a personal webpage (ELNO point 11). It also portrays it as "well supported" - which it doesn't seem to be. Again, no websites from official, important, recognized medical bodies saying "it works!"
• http://opensourcehelminththerapy.org/mediawiki2/index.php?title=Main_Page - this was a different weblink that pops you to the wiki. WP:ELNO point 12 - no wikis.
• http://www.bterfoundation.org/helmintherapy - this is a single page that is basically a list of references in a larger website, and that larger website is not about helminthic therapy specifically. ELNO point 13.

The overall issue is the types of links that are lacking - nothing from the CDC. Nothing from the NIH (in fact, there is a link to the NIH website, but it's about how the worms infect as a parasite and should be treated - it's in fact a misuse of the source per

WP:OR

). Nothing from the FDA. No Mayo clinic that I could find, no Health Canada, no major universities or other research centers. Just a lot of personal webpages from true believers. True believers are not reliable sources - at best they are places where sources could be found and included in the page itself. It comes down to these pages being essentially testimonials with (in some cases) references sections.

I would suggest bringing this up at

_complex

14:21, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I would like to know why WLU erased the following text added to the bioidentical horomone page Definition of the Word Bioidentical

Firstly, the word, Bioidentical, is well-defined by the Miriam Webster Dictionary ^[2] as "possessing identical molecular structure especially in relation to an endogenously produced substance <bioidentical estrogens>". Secondly, "bioidentical" is defined by Wiktionary as "identical to that which is naturally produced by the body.".^[3] The Endocrine Society Position Statement on Bioidentical Hormones definition is: “Bioidentical hormones” are defined as compounds that have exactly the same chemical and molecular structure as hormones that are produced in the human body..^[4] This statement is also endorsed by the North Amerca Menopause Society. ^[5] These sources are in agreement that the word, "bioidentical" has a well defined meaning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Craigventersmonster (talk • contribs) 16:00, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

You probably saw some of the reasons on your

_complex

16:03, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Admin noticeboard notice

See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Bioidentical_Hormone_Page_Very_Biased_and_Locked_up_by_WLU. Fences&Windows 17:55, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Because I'm secretly Sarek's other, non-admin account. I hate people. Not you though!

_complex

17:59, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

When I added the paper the PMID was not out yet. Thanks for fixing that. I am not a big fan of controversy sections ( unless there is a well documented controversy movement ). It has been clear that statins have little to no benefit in primary prevention for at least 7 years. The evidence of course is good for secondary prevention. Thus not controversial. I will work on it in a couple weeks when I return.

I have processed your report of at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Please take note of this advice. CIreland (talk) 01:10, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Already commented, yes it's both good advice and common sense. Thanks,

_complex

01:11, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree that some form of topic ban may be warranted, but suggest WQA may be a first step in dispute resolution-- I am completely swamped in real life, don't have a working computer in my new house yet, but will try to help out next week. Let me know. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:18, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice, I hadn't thought of that. So far LG and myself seem to have this more-or-less handled, but we'll see what happens when protection expires. Please use your judgment - there's not really much reason to stop important work to deal with this.

One thing I'd really like would be a copy of the recent

Medical Letter

article. Can you help a brother out?

These are the same arguments made by many previous POV-pushing accounts, so I know what to expect and what my replies will be. I'm hoping they'll get bored or do something stupid, and that'll solve that.

_complex

11:24, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Does that mean you have a non working computer there? Strange priorities! ;) Verbal chat 11:29, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok, you succeeded to make the section less choppy, thanks. I struggled a bit with it when I made it but didn't have the energy to fix it. I'm just concerned that you have eliminated the bits about the effects on the forced miners, the deaths and invalidity that were inflicted on them.--Stor stark7 ^Speak 22:49, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

My problems with those items were that they were numbers for a very specific time period, with no real extrapolation over the years; it was 500+ injuries and 10 deaths for the first quarter of a single year; though possibly representative, we don't know how representative and if things got better, worse, or didn't change. I think we could reintroduce the numbers (but they would absolutely need to be contextualized to a given number within a very limited window) but I just don't know how useful they really are. If they had rates of killed/injured over a year, or several years, or even better, the duration of the operation of the mine, I would include them without hesitation. I did consider putting them in but ultimately didn't know if they were sufficiently relevant, useful, informative and accurate enough to truly help the page. I'll admit it's a judgement call that isn't very clear-cut. All pages are a balancing act between level of detail and page length - see

WP:STICK

and particularly the myriad see also links of STICK. This is rich coming from me - I love having the last word. But it's still good advice and a way of navigating the community such that you're not seen as a loose cannon ramming a POV into articles, and instead seen as attempting to integrate underappreciated but valid comments into articles.

Of course, if you are truly here to ensure that the "right" version, hitherto blocked from view by the Jewish media/Mafia/anti-German lobby/Islamaphobic West/Yellow Peril conspirators, becomes the mainstream as demonstrated on wikipedia, you need to read

_complex

14:01, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

It certainly looks neater and much more professional, thanks. Will you be willing to keep an eye on it to save it from vandalism?

Keep in mind what

_complex

Some comments on things that were not completed.

When I added the review I had directly quoted 2 parts from it: "extensively researched and referenced" and provides "rich, detailed and objective analysis". The later part was deleted by one individual calling it "copy edit".[12] Why did you not reintroduce it? It would think a reviewer calling the book "objective analysis" to be one of the more important aspects of the review.

Why would I? We have to choose a balance somewhere between quoting the entire review and leaving it out completely. Radeksz may have thought the detail minor and excessive. That looks like a valid copy-edit and judgement call to me. The referencing is more important than the analysis for some people. Objectivity is much more in the eye of the beholder than referencing. You have to choose what details to include without undue weight on a single review. If you want to make the case that that particular detail is necessary, I would suggest doing so on the talk page.

_complex

Another deletion that occurred was the deletion[13] of this paragraph: "When his French publisher tried to raise interest in an English version of his book "one well established US editor said 'I wouldn't touch that book with a ten foot long pole'", another responded with "how dare you publish a book like that about American soldiers!" Lilly goes on to cite an article in the Guardian by Cambridge University historian Richard Drayton that refers to his book and a 2006 Daily Telegraph article entitled "Wartime GIs went on rampage of rape and murder" as examples of a background re-evaluation of GI behavior in the ETO that led Palgrave Macmillian to publish an English language edition of the book."

That section lacks a reference to verify it, making it an acceptable

_complex

This is an important aspect that you neglected completely, what was the reason for it being published in english eventually? What had changed. This aspect is completely missing in the current version.

The book has 2 prefaces, one translation of the original French preface by Fabrice Virgili (who also researches in the same domain). Virgili notes that the book was published in French in 2003, and in Italy in 2004.

In the English preface Lilly notes the following on page xxi (i mix direct quotes with summaries).

In connection to the Gulf war, and Americans eating "Freedom fries", etc, his Publisher (Payot) tried to get interest for publishing in the the US but got rebuffed.

"Several US publishers echoed these sentiments when Payot attempted to raise their interest in an English version of my book, 'La Face Cacheé Des GI's' (The Hidden Face of the GI's). One well-established US publisher said, 'I wouldn't touch that book with a 10-foot long pole,' while another disparaged Payot with 'How dare you publish a book like that about American soldiers!'

On page xxii he relates how public attitudes were influenced by the strong impact of the book "The Greatest Generation" and "saving private Ryan", while less glorifying movies such as the 2006 "Flag of our Fathers" had a weak public response and notes that perhaps his book was "perhaps the wrong book at the wrong time". He notes that since 2003 thousands of US WW-2 veterans have died and it is easier to find a readership in the US.

Also on page xxii he relates to the article by Jamey Keaten "Historians looking at U.S. GI's after D-day" which "discussed my book".

On page xxiii he quoted the article by Drayton, e,g, the bit about "we too are considered an army of rapists".

Also on page xxiii he notes an article in the Telegraph 24 April 2006 entitled "Wartime GIs went on rampage of rape and Murder"

He sums up with "It is against this evolving background of re-evaluating GI's behavior in the ETO that Palgrave Macmillan were happy to publish Taken by Force in an English Edition".

If you are going to include this, be sure to reference it explicitly and treat it carefully - this is not a blunt-force item. A mixture of quotes and summaries clearly attributed to the relevant author may work, but personally I would have to read it. My local university library has a copy, I will try to pick it up soon and review for inclusion. Part of the problem would be a lack of an explicit citation, but part could also be you appear to have a bit of a hair-trigger temper and some strong opinions that cna leak into your edits, and both burn through the

_complex

I would say the direct quotes from U.S. publishers are quite notable here, and they are now lacking.

It looks like to me, that Lilly is the one making statements about the publishers, making it more tenuous and requiring a different attribution.

_complex

I think it is also highly relevant to mention the reason why Lilly thinks he finally managed to publish in English, i.e. that there is an ongoing re-evaluation of GI-behavior.

_complex

Also, the article by Jamey Keaten that discusses Lillys book, and that Lilly mentions in the preface, and to which I also had a link in the external links section before it was deleted, first from the main text[14], and then from the external links by you[15]. Why did you choose not to restore it at least in the external links section? --Stor stark7 ^Speak 22:49, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

The

external links

section is not a holding place for unused sources, though lots of people use it for that unfortunately. That should be used as a source, if reliable. I'd need to see a copy of the source itself to give an opinion on how to use it.

But I overall do caution about including so many details from the preface of the book about the release information. I'll try to comment more after reading it.

_complex

12:01, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

The megadosage vitamin C for cancer says that it is not usfull in humans. This article is from 1969. Since then it has been shown to slow and even eradicate cancer. The NIH even has articles about it. I am tring very hard to understand and obey all the rules that go with Wikipedia, but it is completely against all that I learned in school not to use primary sources. Where there any sources that could be used? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lasaterpd (talk • contribs) 17:28, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Are there any

_complex

17:33, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Regarding this set of edits,

• there is considerable misuse of
  syntheses
  of those sources to promote a viewpoint.
• the article is about vitamin C megadose, which has nothing to do with deficiency discussed in the NHANES source
• Hunninghake is published in the journal of orthomolecular medicine - which is pretty close to a quack journal - and low vitamin C doesn't mean megadoses are a treatment, that's a nonsequiter particularly considering vitamin C is just starting to be researched as a treatment after being found useless in previous tests
• that oral intake is limited while IV is not presupposes it's useful as a treatment and Chen is a primary source bit of bench research which doesn't necessarily translate to full-on human research and I don't believe the vitamin C foundation is a reliable source
• that vitamin C via IV isn't toxic again doesn't mean it's effective
• basic biochemical information about the similarity between sugar and vitamin C is again irrelevant to the actual treatment of cancer without results actually backing it as being effective. Lots of things are biochemically plausible without being effective on the human scale
• overall, again, the orthomolecular approach is seen as unsupported, based on faulty reasoning and poor science

All of the information is contrary to the mainstream opinion that vitamin C megadose has not been found to be a useful and effective treatment method. It's been tested, and didn't help. Maybe the new round of studies will change this, but right now it's considered unproven.

_complex

17:47, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Many of the older test done, were done with oral dosages of vitamin C, which is why they did not work. This includes NIH, the first test did not work, now they have gone back and now say vitamin C does work. Here is a link to one the NIH news stories: [16] I will find a list of peer reviewed journals. Would this information be better suited under the alternative views pages? We all write about what we are interested in and are exposed to. I have a background in science, so I will not be writting about history. I feel that saying "vitamin C is usless" is not a fair statement to make and would like to share another view. Thank you for your helpLasaterpd (talk) 18:06, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I know. I've heard the rhetoric about it not being a fair test. But what hasn't been proven, what is still merely speculation, is that there's any effectiveness in it at all. The tests are being done now. Predicated in your response is the idea that it is effective, but a) hasn't been fairly tested and b) should be assumed until otherwise proven. That's a

reliable sources

. Loading in a lot of primary sources to buttress the idea that it does work, when really it's more like "possible speculative research on rats and cell lines may support the idea of doing a preliminary investigation that could possibly lead to treatment even though we tried something similar and didn't see even an incremental difference" isn't a good idea. I know there's believed, by some, to be a difference between oral versus IV dosing. I also know it's not yet proven. Vitamin C simply isn't used as chemotherapy. Perhaps, one day, it may be. But right now - it's not. It's still theoretical, and until the results are out, the page should give the mainstream opinion - that vitamin C prevents scurvy but there's no reason to think huge overdoses are useful for anything in humans - rather than what theory could possibly lead to in the future. Humans aren't mice, and cells may die when given an overdose of nearly anything - they're isolated islands of limited resources. They're not people. The orthomolecular belief that a little bit is good therefore a ton is not just better, but actually GREAT is illogical and unsupported. Anyway, the page should appropriately say "vitamin C is believed to help with X but has either been tested and failed, or not been tested". It certainly shouldn't be proven to be useful for anything but preventing scurvy and possibly acting as an antihistamine.

Also note that IV vitamin C has been tested more recently (2008) and failed [17]. In fact, it may actually worsen cancer outcomes by interfering with chemotherapy [18]. Anyway, it's generally considered an unpromising area of research that has already been tested and failed; there may be new clinical trials ongoing, but they're not done yet. They should be portrayed simply as ongoing, not as "promising".

_complex

18:47, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I think WLU's giving you good advice here. The overall goal is to present the current state of mainstream knowledge as being the current state of mainstream knowledge. Wikipedia isn't really the place to present cutting edge/latest-and-greatest/expert speculation/paradigm-changing ideas. Wikipedia's goal has much more to do with what the majority of oncologists tell their typical patients right now, not what a couple of researchers say about a single rodent study in a press release. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:22, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

And I should add (to Laseterpd), because I tend to be a dick about these things and I shouldn't be, that I appreciate your asking questions rather than edit warring over the information. My objections to date about the info and speculation are based on the current knowledge. If those prospective trials come back and it turns out high-dose vitamin C is helpful, wikipedia will do its usual job of outrunning Britannica and other encyclopedias to note it. That being said, there are several reasons to see the information suspiciously - animals that generate their own vitamin C still get cancer. There wasn't even incremental benefits seen for patients on high-dose vitamin C. Millions of years of evolution lie between humans losing their ability to generate vitamin C and the present, suggesting strong evolutionary pressure to make up for any negative consequences of losing the production ability. And finally, many of the people supporting the intervention tend to adopt a priori assumptions about vitamins being inherently good and risk-free, in the face of a dearth of evidence. I know Linus Pauling was supposed to be a smart man, but he wouldn't be the first Nobel winner to go on to embrace something radical yet unsupported. A Nobel Prize is not the scientific equivalent of Papal infaillability.

A brief summary of why people think vitamin C might be useful could be included in the page, possibly - but based on highly reliable sources in mainstream journals - not the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine.

_complex

19:53, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you - I will see what I can come up with in the next couple of days. Would it be best to do a seperate section titled alternative views or potential benefits? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lasaterpd (talk • contribs) 20:26, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Not without violating

predict the future

. I firmly, firmly believe the best way to deal with this is to note the previous tests and include a brief, bare mention of its current exploration as an intravenous intervention - and not to add a lengthy section on how it might work, how many current interventions are being investigated, how it wasn't fairly tested in the first place, etc.

If you are planning something lengthy, I suggest using a

_complex

22:01, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

My username is Stor stark7, not SS7. Please stop calling me SS7, I consider it uncivil. Thank you.--Stor stark7 ^Speak 21:20, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Really? You contact me on my talk page over a short form for a pseudonym? Really? I don't consider it uncivil, didn't mean it to be uncivil, and now don't care. I had taken the book out from the library, now it looks like I'll be returning it unread.

_complex

21:42, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

If you're referring to "Taken By Force", then the book may very well still be worth reading, if for no other reason than to make it easier to ensure the relevant article stays neutral.

talk

) 23:09, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I was essentially reading the book as a favour to what I thought was a well-intentioned editor who could use some advice. Now, considering his edit count and this - interesting is the most polite comment I can come up with so - interesting...comment, I'm thinking the problem is one that can't be corrected by experience, time or advice. So I'll just wash my hands of this and walk away.

_complex

23:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Ha! Though given the context, probably tastes like stale crap being reserved for the zillionth time. DMacks (talk) 17:22, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Fresh for me 'cause I haven't responded to this particular point before. Probably for all other readers of the talk page - ya, I'm guessing you're right.

I just finished listening to a lecture on how the Bible/New Testemant was written, it was pretty sweet to be able to use it. The fact that I got to throw in a reference to Looking for Dilmun was just icing on the cake.

None of this, of course, makes up for having to watch Kent Hovind's "debate". Nothing can make up for all that stupid.

_complex

17:50, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi, perhaps you can take a look at this article: Dietary_supplement#Common_uses. In my opinion, there's too much quackery in that section. Thanks in advance.--190.135.162.6 (talk) 21:17, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Yup, that was pretty bad.

_complex

11:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Hello. I've tried more than once to bring a neutral tone to the article on Peter Duesberg, and each time you have removed my edits immediately. I know that it's human nature to believe that our own beliefs are the unbiased truth and that the things we've never thought to question are beyond question. But all POVs, even thos far from mainstream should be presented fairly before being rebutted. Peter Duesberg and his views on AIDS have been rejected, dismissed, ridiculed, laughed at, spit upon, demonized, punished, and chastized by the scientific community, but they have not been disproven. I am assuming good faith efforts on your part, that you're making the changes because you sincerely think he's unquestionably. But please stop squashing a dissenting POV and comparing us to holocaust deniers. The "scientific" community is as driven by politics and conformity as any other group of human beings, and thier "consensus" has been wrong before.

ReasonsAdvocate (talk) 05:55, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

AIDS denialism is considered paradigmatic pseudoscience, and Peter Deusberg is one of the leading advocates. This is well-sourced, well-established, and an approach well-supported by

_complex

13:49, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Editors unshakeably convinced of their own rightness, determined to smear and silence anyone who does not agree with them; that, sadly, is the reality of Wikipedia. I will stop wasting my time attempting civil, reasoned discussion with you. You may go ahead and have your precious last word now. ReasonsAdvocate (talk) 20:41, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

And if I were asserting simply my opinion, I would be a problem. However, since I am summarizing the facts of highly reliable sources, your point is less than compelling. Please stop wasting my time indeed, if you can find

fringe opinion

, then we can talk. The reason why so many editors are convinced, is because there are so many god damned sources substantiating the point. AIDS denialism is not science. They try to make it look like science, but if it's not.

If you're actually leaving wikipedia, just leave. Don't bother telling me about it, I don't care.

_complex

20:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Please do not use {{

Sorry about my edit; it was indeed a mistake, and I've self-reverted. Thanks for pointing it out. --Macrakis (talk) 16:27, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

An article that you have been involved in editing, Trotter Prize (Texas A&M), has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Trotter Prize (Texas A&M). Thank you.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Wolfview (talk) 13:46, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

		The Socratic Barnstar
		For this very eloquent comment. You said every thing I want to say, much better. Sole Soul (talk) 10:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I stood up and applauded when I read it. Anthony (talk) 10:15, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Hm...I said a lot there, which comment specifically? Not to toot my own horn, but it was all pretty awesome I'm guessing the "experts should have the sources"? Seeing as every single friggin' scientific article starts with a literature review, there's no excuse for relying on bare opinion.

But thanks very much, I appreciate it. I was just looking over my barnstars last night thinking I hadn't gotten one in a while!

_complex

12:04, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I was referring to points 2, 3 & 4. Anthony (talk) 14:35, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

In which case I'm going to post this barnstar on my barnstar page twice, since those were pretty Epic Awesome :)

I'm very, very surprised that this isn't explicit somewhere. "Just trust me" violates OR, RS, V and almost certainly NPOV, and completely fails on logical grounds (scholars normally do have access to pretty good libraries). If it's not part of a policy already, it really, really should be.

Sigh. No-one takes vaccine denialism as seriously as me...

_complex

14:45, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

The vaccine bit was good! Good. But, you know... it didn't make me salute. Anthony (talk) 14:49, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

I shouldn't be saluted, just questioned and forced to verify. But I'll still take the barnstar!

_complex

14:52, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Whoops, sorry about that! Somehow I totally missed your message. Regardless, I processed the request at

WLU, based on what criteria did you delete nearly all of the content and references for the Core synchronism article? Nothing untrue was stated in the article as it existed before your edit. It spoke of models and views which you might not agree with, but a number of people do. Is that legitimate cause for removing nearly everything? Did you mean to delete nearly everything or just to add an opposing viewpoint? The latter seems appropriate and, in my understanding, in the spirit of the wikipedia undertaking. Dln108 (talk) 02:41, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Therapeutic touch and other types of "energy medicine" are seen as pseudoscience lacking proof. The article made medical claims, putting it under the purview of

_complex

14:19, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

It sure is lacking any proof but imho the article made it pretty clear what it is about and I do not see any claims of medical wonders. Richiez (talk) 19:59, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Would you please look again at it, I am by no means an advocate of any kind of healing powers but I like to have a description of all such stuff in the wikipedia. Richiez (talk) 16:07, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Do you have any new reliable, peer-reviewed sources on the topic? People see wikipedia as a place to publish

_complex

16:21, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I see it as completely outside the scope of natural science and want an overview what it is, cultural background and such. Consider a doctor whose patient tells him he was doing "Core synchronism".. the poor doctor might want to know something about it. The only criteria for me is notability. I would not in my dreams try to compare the effectivity of core synchronism with bromocriptine and afaics the article did not try to do that. It sure needs a few fixes (like removing the "medical therapy" in first paragraph) but overall I would assume good faith on the part of the user who did create most of it and hope he can improve it with a little guidance. Richiez (talk) 18:46, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Nothing is outside the scope of science, but you can't portray it as such - you need reliable sources that do so. If it's cultural, then slot it into the appropriate article on cultural practices - with reference to reliable sources. Again, if it's very new, it's quite possible that it's

_complex

19:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Basically, what is the best source for what CS is? Is it Stevens' 1995 book/webpage/pamphlet?

_complex

19:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I noticed it has only few google hits outside the US but it has a few, hence it appears notable enough for me. Looking at the google hits it has been around for some time. The page you linked ([20]) does not appear to be part of the article, not the revision I am viewing right now. If someone outside wikipedia claims medical wonders it is a problem but not ours and you can not judge the article by this. You would not judge the article about Aspirin by looking at Bayer ads, would you?(want that the wonderdrug from...?) You seem to be doing OR yourself - you are not responsible for determining which 2 pseudosciences are meshed together here. I would expect every (not just the average) wikipedia reader to know what the article is about after reading a few sentences like "The movement of cerebrospinal fluid is related to the expression of the conscious life principle in the same way that the tidal movement of the ocean is related to the moon.[2]". Its hilarious to try to find pubmed citations on this. Finally why are you accusing the sources of doing OR? This is what sources are for. Richiez (talk) 20:35, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Source "7" is really crap.. how can anyone ever cite Kellogg as a source. Should not be necessary to nuke the whole article because of this? Stick the usual fact templates in places where sources are unacceptable.Richiez (talk) 20:58, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Notability has a specific meaning on wikipedia - see

WP:N. Random google pages, particularly those linked to people who practice it, don't count. Has to be something like a newspaper, book by a mainstream publisher, etc. Must be a reliable, secondary, independent source (or set of sources). I can't actually tell what some of the sources in the previous version

were - source one, is it a book? A webpage? Googling the title turned up the webpage you asked about. Aspirin has a massive history in both popular and medical culture so your comparison is valid and serves to underscore that as yet, the CS article isn't even close. There are limitations to what we write articles about.

As for original research, "core synchronism" doesn't seem to appear once in reference 2. Reference 3 doesn't mention core synchronism in the quote, and it's unlikely to be an appropriate reference given the source used and the numerous other inappropriate "citations" in the page. References 4 and 5 are not really references, and even if they were, it's unlikely an 8th century text would reference craniosacral rhythms or therapy - unless someone is saying it was actually talking about CST, in which case you can't use the

_complex

22:42, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed reply. I think it would be better to base the article solely on the book by Stevens as long as there are no other references. Richiez (talk) 09:07, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

So that's a book? If that's the sole source the article can be based on, a book I can't find on amazon and can't get an ISBN for, then the page should be deleted for failing

_complex

10:32, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I am not involved in that kind of alternative medicine so I do not want to judge notability but it is my impression that people are practicing it so I am against deleting it. Richiez (talk) 11:54, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not our opinions that ensure articles are deleted or not - it is

_complex

15:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

[21]. Yuck. Freakshownerd (talk) 21:08, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

What do you propose as an alternative? The lead is meant to summarize the body, the statement is already pretty short. I think it reads fine but you are always welcome to put in a

_complex

21:51, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

What was there made sense to me. What's there now seems to have a lot of problems, not the least of which are grammatical. Freakshownerd (talk) 22:51, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

You still haven't suggested an improved version; the previous version implied that Park criticized the award for being given to multiple individuals when he was clearly only referring to Dembski. I see my changes as shortening, tighening, and focussing the criticism to be precisely about what Park's criticism was about. Also, Park didn't (generically) "criticize the award" then went on to say it was given to a pseudoscientist. Park criticized the award for being given to a pseudoscientist. Do you have a better option? I frankly don't see one, but am open to ideas.

If you are talking about it being "attempt" rather than "attempting", I've made that correction and thank you for bringing it to my attention. Though, of course, you could have simply done that yourself instead of dropping a general complaint on my talk page, with no specific reference to what the actual problem was. I make mistakes, I know this, I actually include that in my edit notice, and would rather see it fixed than wait for me to correct such an innocuous and obvious error. It's not like there's nuances of policies to be addressed, the source of most of our disagreements.

_complex

13:27, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I did more than suggest an improved version, I implemented one, the version that you mangled. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that Park is only criticizing the award being given to Dembski. The title of the opinion column is "Trotter Prize: an award for overlapping the magisteria" and it opens noting that at a meeting of Park's group they discussed science and religion as being “non-overlapping magisteria”. It then says

"But at Texas A&M they see it a little differently: the Trotter Prize is awarded for “illuminating the connection between science and religion.” How better to illustrate the overlap than to give the award this year to one of the nation’s top pseudoscientists, Dr. William Demski..."

So it seems pretty clear that it's a criticism of the award in general for overlapping magisteria and uses Dembski as a key illustration of the ideological disagreement. What makes you think that Park is only concerned with Dembski?

The grammar remains problematic, but if we can sort out what the sentence should say, I'm optimistic we can figure out how to do so appropriately. Freakshownerd (talk) 16:13, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

He only mentions Dembski, he doesn't even mention Dembski's co-recipient. Thus, it's pretty clear that he's concerned with the award being given to Dembski.

_complex

16:22, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

You haven't addressed my points or why you think Park is concerned only with the award being given to Dembski. It's okay to acknowledge you made a mistake and to fix things. Freakshownerd (talk) 16:31, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

You don't read that as totally inherent to Park's criticism? Park is only concerned with Dembski getting the prize because Dembski is not a real scientist. His whole issue is that Dembski, not a real scientist, not a real philosopher, barely a theologian, and an advocate for a completely bullshit idea (not even an idea, a political strategy - seriously, read the verdict, it's quite solid and thorough) is getting an ostensibly scientific prize for his work on intelligent design, and is even described as "one of the nation's top scientists" which is wildly inaccurate considering he's not a scientist, and if he was he'd be a terrible one. I don't believe I've made a mistake - Park is criticizing the trotter prize for being given to an inherently bad choice, and that is his criticism. You could argue he's criticizing it for unjustly overlapping science and religion - but it does this by giving the prize to Dembski.

_complex

16:44, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi, how's it going, hope all is well. I think you may have an interest in this. I think it's all about your discussion you had there so I'm surprised no one brought it to your attentions. If not interested just ignore. I just felt you had the right to at least make a decision about whether you want to comment or not. Take care of yourself and keep in touch. --CrohnieGal^Talk 22:19, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I commented. I can see why I wasn't notified, no-one is questioning my action, and it's mostly about SA being punitive with someone he has a content disagreement with. I understand the impulse of M8's original comment, and SA's objection to both the comment and M8's POV and approach to editing acupuncture, but I think both are off-base. So far no-one has removed my resolved tag.

As you've probably noticed, I am having a bit of an aggravating week - but my edit count is soaring!!

_complex

13:18, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes I just read your talk page. Boy oh boy are you having a frustrating time. I also saw the comments at MastCell's page a few days or so ago. Keep up the good work. If you have this many people screaming for your head I think you must be doing something right. :) Talk soon, --CrohnieGal^Talk 10:15, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Much as I agree with you, it's also the reason experienced editors pack up and leave. I really wish CPUSH would get some weight behind it.

Did you see my comment at Jimbo's talk page? It was apparently well-received. I got that barnstar above for it!

_complex

10:34, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes I did, good job! :) I actually read it through the barnstar's dif because I don't have him on my watchlist. With what you're dealing with, the barnstar comment should help you keep your sanity a little while longer. :) Keep it up, it's been an interest read for me so far, esp. since the vulgar level is down which means your not too upset, yet. <wide grin> --CrohnieGal^Talk 10:31, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

You and Freakshownerd are brushing up against

I posted this over on his talk page in an attempt to get him to seek uninvolved editors' input, but it was deleted without comment, unsurprisingly. So if I may, I'll offer you similar advice to go file a

Meh, I did notice that, see

_complex

17:07, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh good. I find it hilarious that we both used "meh" within minutes of each other.

_complex

17:08, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I personally owe it to you to admit that I was incorrect and out of line saying that you 'vandalized' the Peter Duesberg page, because your incessant edits don't strictly meet WP's specific definition of "vandalism". My beef with you is that you're on a determined campaign to push your POV. And I know you've said before you're not a POV-pusher because in your mind, you're basing everything you write on "reliable" sources. But your definition of "reliable" conveniently supports your opinion on the matter, and you call sources "unreliable" if they're in the minority and disagree with you. PD is not some clown building perpetual motion machines in his garage, he's a well credentialed biomedical scientist; holding an opinion that is very unpopular does not suddenly make him a 'crank' or 'unreliable'. You say that you strongly (in italics even!) adhere to WP's editorial policies. Fair enough, I'd like to know what WP's policy is on situations like this, where a strongly opinionated editor is (in good faith) systematically removing information he happens to disagree with--and declaring sources 'unreliable' or 'crank' on the bases of being unpopular and contradicting his own views. Would you say that Geoff and Margaret Burbridge, prominent and often-cited astrophysicists, are a couple of 'cranks' because they are Big Bang Theory dissenters? Or DENIALISTS??? ReasonsAdvocate (talk) 06:22, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Not in my mind, in the mind of the scientific community. PD, as far as AIDS is concerned, is exactly like a clown building a perpetual motion device in his garage - he does not research on AIDS, and ignores the science. The definition of a

WP:MEDRS

is even more so - and none of Duesberg's work even comes close, in addition to being explicitly labelled as incorrect pseudoscience. You call my definition "convenient", well isn't it convenient that every peer-reviewed publication on the matter supports me? That every statement by a scientific or medical organization supports me? How convenient...almost as if every reasonable scientist and doctor believed HIV causes AIDS...OMG CONSPIRACIEZZ!!!!

You are welcome to bring my actions up at

_complex

10:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

If you don't like it when people mistake you for a woman, perhaps you shouldn't conclude your tirades with "Tah!" Just a thought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReasonsAdvocate (talk • contribs) 00:03, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

If you don't want to be mistaken for a god-damned idiot, you should avoid associating with Peter Duesberg's ridiculous, consipracy-fueled, ascientific, disproven ideas. not SLP1. Obviously.

I'll be clear - you've never produced a reliable source to support your point, on the other hand the idea you're opposing has extensive citations. You're wasting my time, and doing little but

_complex

00:40, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, WLU likes it when he is mistaken for a woman.[22]. Just a thought! Tah!Slp1 (talk) 00:09, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, that's hot. And there's only one thing hotter...

_complex

00:40, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Way back in January you were involved in

I have reported your attacks on a BLP subject you disagree to the appropriate noticeboards. Freakshownerd (talk) 15:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

The convention and courtesy is to normally leave a link, I'll check your contributions though.

_complex

15:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I have explained to you repeatedly why attempting to disparage article subjects you disagree with is inappropriate. When the attacks on content are to bias them against living people whose view you don't favor so as to make them look bad, that is is a clear a BLP violation. I have provided bolded quotes of the actual policy page on my talkpage in response to another editor. I am not interested in discussing it with you further outside of the appropriate noticeboards. I believe you are trying to disrupt my work here and to antagonize me, and further communications from you on my talkpage, other than and official and required notifications, are quite unwelcome. Freakshownerd (talk) 16:57, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I have generally found your comments to be too vague for me to find helpful or resolve disagreements. There have been exceptions, which is why I am attempting to discuss with you. For instance, the accusation that I am engaging in BLP violations - please show me where I have done so, as I do not believe I have ever made a BLP violation though I have added sourced criticisms to pages of certain figures. If we can't discuss on your talk page, please tell me where we can. Please pick a venue, and please be specific. You claim "clear BLP violations" - obviously not, otherwise I wouldn't make them and other people wouldn't disagree. There is nothing "clear" so we need to discuss. If I am not permitted to talk to you on your talk page, how on earth are we supposed to resolve disagreements? So please, pick a message board, or agree to use talk pages with substantive discussion. Actually discuss with me, and agree to use conflict-resolving mechanisms like

_complex

17:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I explained myself at the BLPN and ANI noticeboards, and quoted the exact parts of the relevant policy on my talk page. I would prefer to discuss the issues there as I get overwhelmed on my talkpage and going round and round becomes disruptive after a certain point. Freakshownerd (talk) 17:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't mind discussing here, but better is on the relevant talk pages. I've pointed out that the parts of the policy you are quoting do not unequivocally support your assertions that I am engaging in ongoing BLP violations.

_complex

17:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Good morning, WLU. Freakshownerd has included you in a report at ANI; see

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on William A. Dembski. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period. Additionally, users who perform several reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. When in dispute with another editor you should first try to discuss controversial changes to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Should that prove unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. If the edit warring continues, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Codf1977 (talk) 15:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Hello, WLU. You have new messages at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring.
Message added 17:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

I simply can not waste my time with Kwami anymore, especially since he's clearly abusing his admin position to promote AAH. I've de-watched the AAH page, but if crap gets bad enough, feel free to drop me a line on my talk page. Mokele (talk) 03:10, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Sure, thanks for letting me know. I'm surprised that Kwami is consistently willing to entertain notions about the AAH as if it were a serious theory, but he has never misused his admin tools and still sticks to sources. So, the page has stayed in its current, imperfect but at least relatively negative state. What can you do?

_complex

10:58, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi my name is Fabiola and i am in a school proyect. it would be awesome if you adopt me.FabGalvez (talk) 03:16, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

The above is a student who ran into difficulties, and ended up triggering a slew of DUCK calls, as it were, but s/he is not a classic sock, FWIW. -- Avi (talk) 14:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Meh, if they're really interested and get unblocked, they can come talk to me. Thanks for the clarification.

_complex

14:36, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I've unblocked, BTW. See User talk:Thelmadatter#Multiple Accounts 8-) . -- Avi (talk) 19:35, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll modify my note on Fabiola's page.

_complex

20:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks... any help you can offer would be quite appreciated! If I remember correctly, you helped out the last time I worked with my English students in WP about 2 or 3 years ago.Thelmadatter (talk) 00:12, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

sorry for the problems and thank you for adopting me.≈ —Preceding unsigned comment added by FabGalvez (talk • contribs) 03:03, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

No problem, do you have any questions?

_complex

12:38, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Hello, I have completed a general cleanup of the adopter information page for the adopt-a-user project, located

• If you are no longer interested in being an adopter, please remove yourself from the list.
• If you are still interested, please check the list to see if any information needs to be updated or added - especially your availability. Thank you.

• You are receiving this message because you are listed as an adopter
  here
  .

Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of Netalarm (talk) at 05:51, 23 September 2010 (UTC).

Hi, WLU:

I have sort of fallen off of the Wikipedia editing wagon, as I am just trying to stay afloat as a self-employed person right now, but someone pointed me to a page that I think needs some serious scrutiny, because it purports to be a scientific (medical) article, but it isn't following any of the rules for same, and is dangerously biased and unclear--especially the diagnostic criteria are horrible!

I wanted to get someone who knows what they're doing onto this, and I figured you were a good person to start with. If you have some time (or know someone who does), maybe you could have a look?

Here's the page: Orthorexia nervosa

Thanks, and take care! Leha Carpenter (talk) 23:14, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Does look a little suspicious, I'll have a gander at some point.

_complex

01:51, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't mind if they have some kind of "teasing" term or whatever, but it shouldn't be billed as a medical condition--it's just a rather limited type of obsession, if anything, and it gives the impression that anyone who has to monitor their diet is bonkers. Diabetics and people with food intolerances fit the "diagnostic criteria" as well as people with psychological problems. Leha Carpenter (talk) 03:06, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Whenever I see a term that's defined by a single person, I get skeptical. I may just gut it if I can't find any real sources on google scholar.

_complex

10:57, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. At the very least, if it's just a euphemism, like "workaholic," it shouldn't have the construction of a medical article. Leha Carpenter (talk) 16:49, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I noticed that you removed a lot of material from Betrayal for the reason "removed researchEditor socking." However, I'd like to point out that the material you removed largely existed before ResearchEditor ever touched it. The following shows the very first edit ResearchEditor ever made on the page; notice how the deleted sections were already present. The article Betrayal was nominated for deletion as a result of the over-zealous removal of sock puppeted content; you should probably talk about why you removed the content in the deletion discussion. I have also restored the ersion of the text form before ResearchEditor —CodeHydro 21:33, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

ResearchEditor is a notorious

_complex

22:52, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I'll try my best, though it may take edits done over several days before I can get it neutral as there's some jargon I need to crack before I can understand the Betrayal Trauma Theory enough to comprehend the sides of the issue to make a fair presentation. If you don't mind, I may also selectively restore some text you have removed from other articles regarding ResearchEditor as well--of course, only after careful decision (if at all, depending on how motivated I feel as such would take quite a lot of my time!). Don't worry, I have quite a lot of experience with the "neutralizing" of biased text. —CodeHydro 12:49, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but neutrality also covers

_complex

14:39, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Hello there, I've found an user that you may be interested in adopting. Please see User:Netalarm/Survey#mrmewe for more information. This user would like to specialize in maintenance tasks, so I believe you two would be a good fit. Please respond as soon as possible. Thanks. Netalarm^talk 01:35, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for the note on my talk page regarding adoption. If you're still up for it, I'd love to be your adoptee. Mrmewe (talk) 13:19, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't see adoption as a big deal - if you have any questions, feel free to ask them here. If you want me to look at an article, source, talk page discussion or edit, link it! If you're curious about a policy, guideline, essay or interpretation, ask and I'll try to explain it. When I have the time (next two weeks or so are not going to work), I normally look at my adoptees edits and suggest possible improvements, linking to the

tools as I find them appropriate. All depends on where you are at in your editing history and experience. I usually refer adoptees to this essay

which contains a lot of my insights into editing circa 2008 or so - not much has changed.

So, any questions? You've got perhaps two days to ask them before I leave, I'll be back to regularly checking wikipedia on the 16th or so.

_complex

14:02, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I forgot that you were going on vacation. Have a good time and of course I expect to see pictures. :) I just want to bring to your attention, if it's not too late, that I have mentioned your name here. It's not important so don't worry if you are already gone. Take care my friend and let me know when you get home if you would, --CrohnieGal^Talk 12:17, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm back, getting over my jetlag and catching up on stuff. Got sick, coughing up think, yellow viscous crud. Not fun. Cranky. Read your comment, glad you're being pushed into learning new stuff - the only way to learn is by doing, which is why being bold is so important.

_complex

21:11, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Please learn about web archiving. You deleted a valuable URL when you did this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rape&action=historysubmit&diff=376335345&oldid=376186688. You could have simply replaced it with this http://web.archive.org/web/20080303044145/backissues.cjrarchives.org/year/97/6/rape.asp or at least not deleted the URL when you made the change you did make. Off to undelete. --W☯W ^t/c 22:03, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Cast your vote at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Nabila_Jamshed_(3rd_nomination) .I support your previous nominations.Good Day.--Poet009 (talk) 21:43, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Ugh, big ass mess.

_complex

21:12, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi there WLU! You may be wondering, what have I done to sound the alarm this time? Nothing. I'm messaging you in regards to the adopt-a-user program, which currently has a backlog of users wishing to be adopted. This doesn't make much sense, as we have a considerable list of users offer adoption, so there shouldn't be any backlog. I've begun to eliminate this backlog myself through a matching program, but I need your help to make it work. Of course, adoptees and adopters don't have to go through there, but I believe it helps eliminate the backlog because someone is actively matching pairs.

On the

Finally, I've gone around and asked adoptees (and will in the future) to fill in a short survey so adopters can take the initiative and contact users they feel comfortable working with. We all know that most adoptees just place the adopt me template on their user page and leave it - so it's up to us to approach them and offer adoption. So, please take a look at the survey, adopt those that fit your interests, and maybe watchlist it so you can see the interests of adoptees and adopt one that fits your interests in the future.

Once again, thank you for participating in the adopt-a-user program! If you wish to respond to this post, please message me on my talk page.

Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of Netalarm (talk) at 05:28, 11 October 2010 (UTC).

Hi i invited you to come and see the contributions i just wrote with my time on the "BICENTENNIAL OF MEXICO". my group and i collaborate on the infrastructure part. also i want to know your opinion on my next project. i am going to write about a famous engineer here in Mexico. his name is Bernardo Quintana . ≈ —Preceding unsigned comment added by FabGalvez (talk • contribs) 18:30, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your reasoned and thorough approach to the discussions currently underway at Fathers' rights movement. Ebikeguy (talk) 20:17, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! It's hurting my head, but at least it's getting a little better.

_complex

11:06, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I saw this and wondered if you had. I don't know what to think about it, but you're closer to the sources and may have a view. Anthony (talk) 15:45, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

The issue has sprawled across so many pages that I can't really tell what the ultimate core issue (i.e. edits to mainspace articles) is. Barrett can be used as a source on CAM articles provided the statement is attributed. The whole law suit thing is tangential and peripheral to wikipedia, though should probably be mentioned on at least a couple pages (

_complex

20:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Just to say thanks for your support on the Fathers' Rights page, seems you spotted the most recent additions of individual newspaper reports before I did and thanks for hilighting them in the talk page. Also thanks for your analysis of Flood as I don't have a particularly good knowledge of his work and it's been very useful how you've shown which items were self published. I really don't think we disagree quite as much as you think in our approach to Wikipedia and I'm not someone who uses the term "attack piece" at all lightly (I've never been anywhere near as critical of any Wikiepdia article as the fathers' rights one in all my time here). Also I can honestly say you really don't have to tell me about how negative material is still notable, I do tend to be be fairly inclusionist and really do value justified criticism in any article. The main issue I have is that the negative criticisms or mere allegations were being levered in despite them only applying to one or two individuals rather than to the actual movement, and it is quite frustrating when people do this. Anyway please do continue to keep an eye on the article as it is much needed.--Shakehandsman (talk) 02:56, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The discussion is now on talk:Stephen C. Meyer.