Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti-Russian sentiment (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. east.718 at 02:19, 11/5/2007

Anti-Russian sentiment

Anti-Russian sentiment (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

The rationale for deletion is that the content on this page is not suitable for an encyclopedia. The reason that the content is not suitable is that it is a

hook of a notable topic
, a topic which this article fails to discuss in any great depth. For example, the Nazis showed the most extreme form of anti-Russian sentiment, but it is only given one single sentence and a quote in the whole article, while we have sections upon sections of accusations by Russian authorities leveled at other countries that they currently have poor relations with.

It is a classic

coatrack
of unfounded accusations of anti-Russian sentiment leveled at particular countries. For example we have Britain listed as a country holding anti-Russian sentiment, yet the only evidence is some unfounded accusations by the Russian ambassador in the wake of the Litvinenko assasination. The article cites some survey regarding negative perceptions of Russia: 62% in Finland, 42% in the Czech Republic and Switzerland, 37% in Germany, 32% in Denmark and Poland, 23% in Estonia. Yet we don't see sections on Finland, the Czech Republic, Switzerland, Germany or Denmark in this article, but the Baltic states is listed, even though their level of negative perception is significantly lower than those other countries. The Baltic States section contains only more unfounded accusations from Russian authorities, but no real evidence of actual anti-Russian sentiment. Poland too is listed as is the USA. This article seems to only list those countries that the Russian Federation currently has difficult relations with. The page has become an inflammatory attack page directed at those particular countries, particularly with the juxtapostion of an image of a Nazi inscription "The Russian must die so that we may live" at the top of the article. This kind of thing has no place in Wikipedia.

As it stands, this article does not reflect "anti-Russian sentiment" as defined in the scholarly sources, but had become a sort of rolling "complaints board" where the latest accusation or innuendo published in the Russian press is posted. For example, at the height of the difficulties with Georgia there was a section on Georgia, and a section on Austria after some hotel had an issue with drunk Russian tourists [2], but no mention of the UK or the USA, since Litvinenko or the missile shield issues hadn't happened yet. Unfortunately it is impossible to improve the article to something reasonable like

Martintg 02:42, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

  • It was removed. And then instantly reinstated by those who want to have this coattrack. -- Sander Säde 09:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps you should read what has said, before starting to protest? Article is not about russofobia, article is about Russian politics (you know, the thing where government picks a new "enemy of Russia" every six months, calls that country russofobes and biggest enemy of Russia, until they find a new target). That is not russofobia, that is just shameful. -- Sander Säde 09:34, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent joke, "funded by their governments if not the CIA"! Straight from the Cold War paranoia. -- Sander Säde 10:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well not directly, but certainly brainwashed by them... :) --
Kuban Cossack 10:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Please don't
Kuban Cossack 11:29, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
You are one humorous fellow. I'll be waiting for my paycheck form some obscure agency then, I could use an extra income.--Alexia Death the Grey 14:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll take that as a compliment, your love for Russia has never been so...recognised.--
Kuban Cossack 16:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Where did Martintg make a legal threat to you? Methinks you should read policies before linking to them, Kuban kazak. -- Sander Säde 16:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comparing this to Antisemitism is rather ridiculous... One is completely historic verifiable and throughly sourced topic, the other synthesized soapbox.--Alexia Death the Grey 20:38, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, these reasons for deletions are really a synthesized soapbox. Incnis Mrsi 22:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • weak keep and completely rewrite it. Make it like the Anti-Polish sentiment article. Ostap 04:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment: Polonophobia article has been fierce battlefield for years and there's little hope this won't happen in the future. Pavel Vozenilek 20:48, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Can I ask the person to clarify his position, does he want to keep and re-write it or actually delete altogether, becuase you can't have both. --
    Kuban Cossack 19:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Yes, I realize this topic is notable, and I think there should be an article. But in the state that its in now, it is not acceptable. I guess thats a "keep", but in my opinion its unencyclopedic and it needs to be re-written. Ostap 21:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What thing in the article is not encyclopedic? Incnis Mrsi 22:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This is very real and very notable. Everyking 09:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. While anti-Russian sentiment does exist (actually, anti-any nation phobia) Wikipedia has very poor track with this kind of articles. They invariable turn into haphazard collection of scares and horror stories today's media are so fond about, lacking cohesiveness and structure. This article is no exception.
Until there's some way to keep such texts based on academic research they should be deleted or renamed according to List of recent media views of XYZ pattern. Pavel Vozenilek 17:44, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hehe, way off the target:-) Not so recent at all. Looks like you didn't read the article carefully. `'Míkka 22:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What I see" at least 50% of the text are anecdotal evidences from the 2000s. For example: 19th century British jingoism and Russian bear scare is covered in fewer sentences than recent twaddle of an ambassador in the UK. Sorry but this is not what I would expect from encyclopedia. Pavel Vozenilek 04:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete. Are we moving wars into WP? Can you define what an "anti-X-nation sentiment" is without relating it to a specific space and time? So move the relevant info to relevant articles and delete this abomination (BTW, I'm from the former Eastern Block and I know what an anti-Russian sentiment is, but I keep my mind clear). adriatikus | 18:55, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This 'anti-X-nation' series has the same weight as people against books printed with Times Roman 11pt. While such anti-Ru sentiment occurred in specific regions at specific times, summing them up in an "overview" article smells like hate-driven. There aren't people against Times Roman 11pt generally. There may be some in specific situations (peculiar alphabets, or specific materials like ad prints etc.). But would be insane to sum them in a category against Times Roman, the same is insane to sum specific situations into a general anti-X-nation articles. This article (like all in this anti-X-nation series) does nothing but sums discontinuous (in space and time) events. More, the reasons don't have a denominator. What this kind of articles does is (1) mixes random (although accurate historically) situations who's only common term is the X-nation, and (2), subsequently, leads the reader into thinking the events have in common the "X-nation", so... (and speculations may begin). One could point that this is a valid gathering of facts based on one criteria, the "X-nation". This argument fails, because the next logical step would be drawing (partial) conclusions relative to X-nation as a whole. But the reasons for such anti-X-nation sentiments aren't primary against the X-nation, but against specific groups (e.g. political leaders, army commandants), specific actions, specific situations. The danger here is that, differently from "the properties of number N" which have no moral value, gathering such data about nations easily transforms itself into thinking "they, as a whole, have this characteristic", or "they as a whole did that". In this case (Ru related) a proper article would be anti-Soviet sentiments, or anti-Communism sentiments, the "blamed" being not a nation, but a system. adriatikus | 04:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Notable and verifiable concept. The article is reasonably structured and has a referenced historical section. All of it is not an indiscriminate "coatrack": examples are given to illustrate some countries/ethnicities. At the same time the nominator presents a reasonable criticism of the article that should be addressed. `'Míkka 22:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete: Not that I have anything against coatracks, I have one at home, where I keep my hat. Or maybe it is a hatrack then? But coatracks don't belong into wikipedia, and this is clear example of that. The article is full of synthesis and false claims, I don't see any reason why we should waste time on correcting it and arguing with other editors who like the synthesis. Suva Чего? 15:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    False claims, you said? Just go and remove it! Incnis Mrsi 22:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete: There is little scholarship here at all. All it is is a sounding block for pro-Russian POV Bandurist 19:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Talk about some of the POV articles that you created, and revert-warred on, shall I list those for deletion as well? --
    Kuban Cossack 20:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Comment - The subject is notable and relevant. But amid all this "debate", will anyone actually take the criticisms voiced herein and raise the quality of the article? I agree with Mikka that the nominator presents a reasonable criticism of the article that should be addressed. And why is it titled Anti-Russian Sentiment (ARS) rather than Russophobia if, as Kuban Kozak points, out Russophobia has a developed body of scholarly work on it. My last point, going through the article, there is no section where a reader can find the categories or conditions that qualify event A as ARS/Russophobia and event B as not ARS/Russophobia; there is no definition. Lack of such section gives the article a sense of arbitrariness and the perception that it may be afterall just a collection of news flashes salient at the moment. Too bad, because as I said above, the topic is of note.--Riurik(discuss) 22:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    "raise the quality" - I think it will be done after the vote closure. With modern admins you never know what brick will hit you. `'Míkka 02:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You mean, like some editors started purposefully destroy
    Denial of Soviet occupation during the AfD, as they wanted it to be deleted? Jolly good show. -- Sander Säde 06:52, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Pray, who denies "existence and importance"? The problem is that article is not about russofobia or anti-Russian sentiment. The article is about cases alleged by Russian government and media to be russofobic - or just cases involving Russians abroad - and overall is a biased coatrack attempting to make a
    WP:POINT. Not an encyclopedic article analyzing the origins and current situation in unbiased and NPOV way. That is the issue here, not "russophobia denial". -- Sander Säde 13:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
To make description unbiased and NPOV article should be improved, not deleted.DonaldDuck 05:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Russophobia is the subject of researches of scientifics, for example, Igor Shafarevich--86.57.204.205 12:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)--Alexander Sokolov 12:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And about "
WP:SOAP - Propaganda, advocacy" - look it in gay-wiki-pages, but not there. Alexandrov 09:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
  • And you just happen to come to en.wikipedia whenever someone is rallying up people on ru.wikipedia? -- Sander Säde 21:14, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I often use some materials from en-wiki and I saw this discussion. Serebr 01:29, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete while the topic itself might or might not be Wikipedia worthy the present article is almost completely useless, right now being simply a lumping together of various claims of russophobia made by Russian media. Let me stress however that the deletion of this article in its present form does not in any way prevent the creation of an encyclopedic article in the future that would disscuss the alleged dislike towards Russians as showing both the reality and how the issues are reported by Russian media in order to maintain a siege mentality and support forces that more or less directly wish to recreate the soviet empire. --Grzegorz Chrząszcz vel Brzęszczykiewicz 10:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Your dislike to recreate the Soviet (or German, or Martian, or something else) empire (or kingdom, or khalifate, or something else) has not to be a ground for article deletion. Incnis Mrsi 22:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep — it's a very important article.--JukoFF 17:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. There's a lot of articles on various anti-national sentiment. Anti-Russian is nothing different, and I see nothing in this article that make it more biased than
    Anti-Irish racism, for example. Garret Beaumain 17:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Speedy keep it is not better as Antisemitism oh Holokost--Jaro.p 18:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Users: Jaro.p, JukoFF, Serebr, Alexandrov, Alexander Sokolov all have only contribution list of adding ru: interwiki links. This exactly matches the criteria of canvassing in ru.wiki -- Users who have account in en wiki for adding interwiki links have voted. Suva Чего? 00:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: Related thread is here Suva Чего? 00:20, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ну какие ещё комменты может здесь дать эстонский гражданин, если его премьер-министр одевается в нацистскую форму и позирует? Что, всех проголосовавших за оставление туда записал, сам критерии определяешь?--80.249.229.48 11:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.120.128.31 (talk) [reply]
    • I have some edits in en-wiki and I am an active user of ru-wiki i.e. I am a real user, not "sockpuppet" or "meatpuppet". Serebr 01:29, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete-serves as posting grudges against countries that were occupied by Soviet Russia and naturally don't remember the time in positive view.--Molobo 16:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Thus, you admit they have Anti-Russian sentiment there?Garret Beaumain 17:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Dislike for a state doesn't mean phobia for a people. Otherwise you would claim people fighting Nazi Germany and its legacy were germanophobes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Molobo (talk • contribs) 18:06, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    If they extend their hate on modern germans, they are.Garret Beaumain 21:47, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no evidence in reliable sources that hate has been extended anywhere, hence it's
    Martintg 23:46, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Keep. Arguments against the article are a bunch of
    demagogy possibly backed by political intrigues in some states. The article is not a coatrack. Incnis Mrsi 22:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • *Strong Keep. This topic is vary notable! If you wanna to delete subj, then it needs delete Antisemitism too. Rusophobe ¡NO PASARAN!--Paukrus 23:57, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • If this article confined itself to the topic "russophobia" as defined in the scholarly sources [4], I would have no objection. However this article does not cover this topic in any detail. All we have is sections upon sections of the latest synthesised accusations levelled against countries found in the media, in a kind of rolling attack board. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a
    Martintg 03:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Comment. Right. That is canvassing by User:DonaldDuck, which is hardly a reason to delete this article though. Biophys 16:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Articles of this type IMO usually appear with minority groups where they document persecution, and acts of inequity. In the case of Russian - this is an imperialist group and will naturally cause dissent no matter what it does. I do not see similar articles for anti-American sentiment (which no doubt exists) anti-Arabic, Anti-French, anti-English. I don't know, but an imperial giant like Russia shouldn't cry if it hurts someones feelings. It is so trivial. If however the article documents or tries to document an organized campaign of changing public opinion then this should be documented and documented well. Currently it looks like a gripe box - "Mummy he hit me!" type comments just don't sound scholarly at all. Bandurist 16:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I notified the canvassing few comments back. I am also not sure if deletion is going to help anything. But at it's current state the article is not encyclopedic. It's mostly clear synthesis and otherwise many of the stuff can hardly be considered to be connected with anti russian sentiment. I think the article should definitely be rewritten. But I don't know anyone who could pull that off without getting into fight with numerous people. Suva Чего? 17:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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