Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chronology of Star Wars

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Short close rationale: Doesn't meet GNG, probably won't, but there's good content here that can be and should be used. The nitty-gritty reasoning? Read on.

First, let's throw out the arguments which don't hold here:

WP:FICT. The main arguments boiled down to whether this meets the notability guideline, and the whole original research bit. (A note before going on: I didn't consider the Chronology of the Harry Potter series
in this close because while the arguments were based on similar elements, the two articles are quite different in composition and content; it's not fair to apply the same standards in this respect.) Does this article contain unverified claims and original research? Most definitely. But AfD, as noted below, is not cleanup, and primary sources have been provided that could be used to reliably source much of the article. Of course, when possible it's nice to rely on reliable secondary sources, some of which have been provided as well.

But that still leaves the question of whether the Chronology of Star Wars meets notability guidelines. There are references to the timeline, as demonstrated, but also shown none of these rise to the level of significance required by the

Star Wars universe (which could make good use of the out-of-universe discussions of canon found in the lead of the article in question.) However what, where, when to merge and such is a decision best made outside the purview of AfD. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 01:34, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
]

Chronology of Star Wars

AfDs for this article:
Chronology of Star Wars (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

See also

WP:FICT. Dalejenkins | 01:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
]

To the closer - As the nominator suggests, please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chronology of the Harry Potter series. As there has been much discussion covering similar topics on two separate AfD pages, in order to determine clear consensus, I ask that the closer take all the comments from both discussions into consideration of both closures. - jc37 17:53, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep the Star Wars stories appear in so many media, and have attracted so much attention, that this is almost necessary to allow readers to make sense of the disparate articles. The BBY fan notation is widely used. References like The New Essential Chronology give outside sourcing for it. --JJL (talk) 01:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The aforementioned book is a primary source - that's like saying that everybody who has a website should have a wikipage regardless of
WP:BIO. Dalejenkins | 01:28, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
I disagree. It's a book written by third-party authors about what others have written and as such it's per definition a secondary source (as not being written by those who have created the material in question). The style used to do so (in-universe rather than outside view) does not change this fact. Regards SoWhy 08:44, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is a timeline of plot summary in licensed fictional Star Wars works. That's a licensed fictional Star Wars work. How is that
independent of the subject? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 09:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
It is independent because it was not written by the subject - persons such as Darth Vader or Luke Skywalker. Furthermore, it is not "self-publicity, advertising, self-published material by the subject, autobiographies, press releases, etc.". The point of the guideline you cite is to show "strong evidence of interest by the world at large". The main chronology exists in numerous editions and so this constitutes such strong evidence. Q.E.D. Colonel Warden (talk) 10:15, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, it was written by employees of Lucasfilm. It's not useful for commentary on the subject of the Star Wars timeline, because the only thoughts on the subject are going to be those who create and maintain that timeline. There's no hope of commentary from people other than people selling you that franchise, who naturally are interested in it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 10:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is common for reliable sources to be written by those who have an economic interest in the topic. For example, a mathematics textbook will typically be written by a person who has a vested interest in maths education/research. This is no bar to our usage of such sources. The guideline makes it clear that problems arise when people are writing about themself or it is overtly promotional like advertising. This is not the case here. The chronology of the Star Wars universe is of popular interest and it is naturally written by authors who have a specal expertise in the topic. If the work is official then it is authoritative and so much the better. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:01, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But a mathematics textbook will be covering concepts covered by many different texts, and not covering theories created by the mathematician or the publisher. Problems arise when we look to a Lucasfilm work for commentary on Lucasfilm's works. If the timeline is of popular interest, where's the commentary from authors who aren't in the employ of Lucasfilm? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 11:40, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are hundreds of references to the Star Wars chronology out there, see for example. There's no IF about it - the claim that this topic is not notable is absurd. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hitler Garden on Google News, and yet Adolf Hitler's garden is still a redlink.
All of your Google News hits are mentioning this book briefly, or using the not-uncommon English word "chronology" or variations of same in an article about Star Wars. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 12:11, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Godwin's law indicates that we are done. Thank you for playing. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:28, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just insanely amused by "Adolf Hitler (1889 – 1945) was an Austrian-born German politician and the leader of the National Socialist German Workers Party, popularly known as the Nazi Party. He was also noted for his contributions to gardening." Not sure if it was vandalism or a parody somewhere. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 13:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A more careful examination with Google would lead you to this, which leads to this 1938 article describing Hitler's Berghof residence in great detail ("The gardens are laid out simply enough. Lawns at different levels are planted with flowering shrubs, as well as roses and other blooms in due season. The Führer, I may add, has a passion for cut flowers in his home, as well as for music."). There's also this ("Was it creepy to sleep in Hitler's garden, where Bormann and Goering literally strutted their stuff?"). Perhaps Hitler's garden is not quite as non-notable as you thought? Perhaps the results of Google searches should not be routinely dismissed simply because you are able to create search terms which turn up thousands of irrelevant hits? Is Taxi Driver not notable because this search turns up a bunch of articles about various cab drivers that have nothing to do with the film? DHowell (talk) 00:52, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I just need a better silly juxtaposition of words to show that the Google test doesn't necessarily mean you have a topic. (Plus, dude, major offhand references there.) Maybe Jesus break dancing. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 01:26, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Again, just because you can come up with search terms for non-topics (although, perhaps this is relevant to the topic of "Jesus break dancing"?) does not mean that all Google searches are non-topics. Google test doesn't mean you necessarily have a topic, but it doesn't necessarily mean you don't. Actually looking at the search results and refining your search terms is how you properly use Google. DHowell (talk) 04:24, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's a really great job of attacking the analogy while not addressing the point. A shotgun Google search full of junk has never established anything on its own. You're saying, "Well, maybe there are some good sources there!" I'm saying, "You'll need to point them out, because my digging got zero." - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 06:33, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that I had seen no evidence that you did any digging at all, because my digging was actually turning up sources which I have pointed out; though now how I see you dismiss every source brought up I'm not sure more digging would be worth the effort, because I have no idea what kind of source you would accept to support this article. Perhaps if I knew what an AMIB-approved source that would support a fictional timeline would actually look like, I could refine my searching further. DHowell (talk) 10:45, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You digging has twice turned up articles that end with "Timeline taken from Star Wars Encyclopedia" and offer no commentary on the timeline at all. I offered a ton of questions that a good source might answer, or you could read
WP:WAF which has been linked from this AFD at least a half-dozen times now. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 10:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
You now appear to be misrepresenting the facts in order to further your argument: The LA Times article cites the following sources: "Star Wars Episode I: Incredible Cross Sections," www.starwars.com, "Star Wars Behind the Magic," "Star Wars Episode I: Visual Dictionary," "Star Wars: Episode I The Phantom Menace Movie Scrapbook," Lucasfilm Ltd., 20th Century Fox. None of them are the Star Wars Encyclopedia. The Lexington Herald-Leader offers the following commentary on the timeline: "This time line was compiled by fans, based on the movies, Lucasfilm-approved novels and comic books. There are still disputes about what is regarded as official text" and "There is controversy about the exact year Luke and Leia were born. The Star Wars Encyclopedia puts their birth at 18 BBY, but www.TheForce.net speculates 20 BBY." What newspapers decide to report and or "repeat from licensed fan-guides" is in itself a form of commentary, because they are deciding the information is "worthy of notice", i.e. notable. Finally, I have found some information about Lucas's role in the creation of the story chronology and how it is maintained by "continuity editors" in George Lucas: Interviews here. There are no doubt more sources to be find, but disimissing each one by one, without actually examining them, and reverting improvements to the article is not helpful, and strikes me as extreme bad faith. I'm not going to edit the article to improve it if you going to keep reverting me. DHowell (talk) 15:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I'm working on converting it into a decent article. I'm removing a lot of the cruft, and once I remove what's uncitable i'm going to find citations for the rest of it. I've got primary sources, as well as the Star Wars Encyclopedia and several other books that count as third-party, so claims of
    Talk 01:47, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
You working on it doesn't make it anymore noteable though, does it. Where are these sources you speak of? Dalejenkins | 02:15, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The majority are in my living room. Some are in my bedroom, but I try not to have too many there, else it clutters up the room.
Talk 02:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
So what sources are they? Please describe and if they are books, can you tell us what they are and how their usage as citations will aid the article with real-life contextual support. There's no point having this article if it's just a re-creation of some sources - this is currently the case and therefore the article should be deleted. Also, whilst assuming
WP:ILIKEIT is being applied in your argument. Dalejenkins | 08:06, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
I have the Star Wars Encyclopedia, several of the "Essential Guide to X" books, and a whole lot of primary sources (books, movies, etc). I acknowledge that the article as it is now is a steaming pile of shit, and the article after I finish with it will be about 1/10th the size it is now. Most of the events listed are not notable in any way, and I plan on restricting it to the select few that are.
Talk 19:21, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
I believe it is considered a standard. I know the official Star Wars Encyclopedia uses BBY/ABY for dates, and has something of a timeline as well. As for the rest of the information on length of standard days/years etc, I would have to look it up, as there may well be some valid SYNthesis concerns there. But the format for referring to years is generally accepted and (I think) official canon. Anythong I can't find a cite for and isn't notable will be getting thrown out.
Talk 04:29, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
The article needs to show that it can provide real-world context on the subject in hand, otherwise it immediately fails
WP:PLOT. Neither of you have addressed this in your arguments. Dalejenkins | 08:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
NOT PLOT refers to coverage of a topic, not a specific article " The coverage of a fictional work should not be a mere plot summary. " If our entire coverage of Stat Wars was limited to this article it would fail. But it isn't. This is essentially a navigation page to facilitate understand the material. The current wording is not really definitive--about 20 variations have been tried in the last few weeks. But the compromise consensus is that it applies to the coverage of works as a whole, not articles. There seems also to be consensus that extends even wider that the availability of references to a plot makes an article on it possible. (I dont really like that part myself, because references are a matter of chance for fiction), but i accept it as part of the compromise. Perhaps you disagree. Discuss it there, if you like, but I think the view will be speedily rejected as something we have already compromised on. I shouldn't have to explain the advantage of compromise of FICT related questions--we have no actual fundamental agreement, we won;t completely convince each other: we can either fight it out indefinitely instead of working on article, or we can compromise. Choose. DGG (talk) 08:46, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's an in-universe navigation tool, when we already have lists that cover both in-universe and out-of-universe organizations, in a way that is overwhelmingly filled with in-universe factoids and not works. Some works (non-canon ones) aren't linked at all, whereas some are linked many, many times. This is the same problem as the now-deleted Buffyverse chronology. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 08:53, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep A chronology of notable events, basically a list of them (as DGG says) is as notable as the events it lists. The article serves (or can serve!) for a overview of when the events in different notable media are taking place within the fictional chronology, thus allowing the reader an easier overview of those events. Citing an essay like
    WP:BEFORE, the article can be improved, thus deleting is not the correct choice. Regards SoWhy 08:39, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
"a chronology of notable events" - what? A bunch of fictional events in a science fiction series are not notable I'm afraid, unless it can be proved that there is significant, non-trivial, third-party coverage. Dalejenkins | 09:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Events like those that happen in the main Star Wars movies have been covered by countless sources, analyzing real-world connections and suchlike (see Palpatine#Character_creation for examples). That some are not that notable is not the concern of AFD but of cleanup. Regards SoWhy 21:36, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • This suggestion is contrary to our
    editing policy. We do not keep deleting articles until someone gets it right. We improve them in situ as this is the Wiki way. Colonel Warden (talk) 09:34, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Bullshine. There is only one source from that list that comments on the chronology of Star Wars itself rather than on Star Wars as a whole, and this book has been previously discussed - it is not reliable as it is a primary source and, as the article only sources this one document, we are breaking copyvio. Dalejenkins | 22:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I assume you have proof that the article is in violation of somebody's copyright? And if so, that there is some barrier that prevents you from simply removing the offended sections? Because if not, then its not a valid reason to delete. If it actually is copyvio, then after this closes i'm going to recreate it in a non-infringing way.
Talk 23:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Delete'- so someone reads books, tries to put an order to things, finds 1 published chronology, MAKES UP a dating scheme and tada... we have an article. Seems like pure
    WP:OR. GtstrickyTalk or C 23:33, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The dating system is not made up; several official sources such as the
Talk 02:10, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
2. Respect for commercial opportunities. Non-free content is not used in a manner that is likely to replace the original market role of the original copyrighted media.
3.
  1. Minimal usage. Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information.
  2. Minimal extent of use. An entire work is not used if a portion will suffice. Low- rather than high-resolution/fidelity/bit rate is used (especially where the original could be used for deliberate copyright infringement). This rule also applies to the copy in the File: namespace.
5. Content. Non-free content meets general Wikipedia content standards and is encyclopedic.
It doesn't get much simpler than that. Hiding T 12:11, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Two questions: First, I'm not sure how that applies here. (I can only guess atm.) Would you explain? And also, I'm sure I missed it somewhere, but would you please link to the copy in File namespace?
I strongly support Chronologies (for the various reasons noted above). However, if we're in violation of NFC, I'll likely switch to delete on those grounds. - jc37 20:19, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't cut and paste as properly as I'd like. The first mistakle a lot of people make is in assuming that non-free applies only to images. It actually applies to all non-free content. A plot is non-free content. That's how it applies. We're basically infringing upon the commercial opportunities a copyright holder has in exploiting their work to produce such a chronology and sell it. We're giving it away for free, basically. Now, we can use non-free content minimally, so we can use points within the chronology in relevant articles, but groupoing it together in one article to show the timeline is not minimal usage. So you can say in an article on the character Harry Potter that he got a scar on his head at this point, that's minimal usage. The minimal extent is only to use as much of the plot as is needed to illustrate or facilitate understanding for a reader. And finally, non-free content must be encyclopedic and meet content standards. So it needs to be in keeping with
the manual of style, and with Wikipedia:Non-free content, which notes that it is illegal (among other things) to reproduce or make derivative works of copyrighted works without legal justification. The key point here is derivative works, which are defined as being an expressive creation that includes major, copyright-protected elements of an original, previously created first work. The only legal justification we have for making derivitaive works is that of fair use, but that involves demonstrating transformation. We fail here somewhat because what we have created isn't new. Now it can be argued that WIkipedia might possibly get away with publishing this stuff, but that's not the point. The point is that we have commercial reusers, so it isn't enough that we can get away with it. On Wikipedia, our goal is to be a free content encyclopedia, with free content defined as any content granting the right to redistribute, study, modify and improve, and otherwise use the works for any purpose in any medium, even commercially. So that's the basis for my thinking. Hiding T 22:03, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
No problem on the paste (especially since we're both responding in two separate discussions).
The key sentence seems to be: "...but groupoing it together in one article to show the timeline is not minimal usage." - Are we certain that this is the case? I mean no slight whatsoever, but rather want to get to the heart of this. Because what you're saying would then seem to apply to geneological tables (family trees) as well as quite a few other lists. So it sounds like we really need to know if this is legally accurate (and since
User talk:Mike Godwin? - jc37 02:08, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
]
In what sense would it be like a family tree? You can't copyright a family tree, since it is material within the public domain. Showing the timeline is not minimal usage to my mind, because the point of the article is to show the timeline, not to discuss the impact of the work. Our whole usage of copyright material rests upon a fair use defense, which means we have to offer critical commentary and use copyrighted material when it is vital to the points being discussed. But yes, this has applied to lists in the past, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/FHM lists. Also see Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2006 February 4. I don't think this article is at all workable, I think given this chronology has been published a couple of times we're basically infringing copyright by reproducing it here. Hiding T 13:21, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Stricken, not so sure of my ground now, actually. I've left a few remarks, but given points made at
    WT:NOT, I've made a u-turn. I think it probably is a matter for teh foundation. I reckon we should probably just avoid copyright paranoia and let the board take the lead on this issue. They'll be able to source better opinions than mine. Hiding T 13:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • I've been asked to expand on this, so I will. First point is that
    WP:NFCC specifically states it applies only to "copyrighted images, audio and video clips, and other media files", so it does not extend to text as I mistakenly assert above. The second point is that the level to which copyright law covers specific um, "fictional facts", is unclear. Plot itself is not subject to copyright, but creative expression is. Basically, the only place that will ever determine whether we breach copyright or not is a court of law, and ultimately it is therefore a call for the board to make rather than for me to make. The board reserve the right to take down any material which they do not believe would be defended in court using fair use defense criteria, so I think they have to take the lead on on summarising and infringing fictional works which are subject to copyright. I retract my assertions as flawed and perhaps subject to copyright paranoia. Hiding T 15:23, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Comment on OR and expansion of my rationale for keep. NO OR exists to keep people from publishing their theses here in the guise of an article. This not the case here. The creators do not compile and synthesize information to reach a conclusion that is not stated explicitly in the sources. They do not cite themselves. This is not OR, the use of primary sources does not make it such. "Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is 'source-based research', and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia." Once again, we are building a storehouse off all human knowledge. Dlohcierekim 14:22, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is an article written based one one single primary source, with lots of conjecture based on other primary sources (and some random comments in secondary sources that are chiefly about other things). It's two different kinds of OR (Lucasfilm's own theory of how their work fits together, and lots of fans' little theories), but both are inappropriate. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 09:35, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

'Keep. "I don't like it" is nota reason to delete an article! Yes, the article is shoddy; yes, it lacks

WP:RS and, yes, it is overly detailed and immersed in the lightsaber wielding world of The Force. However, the cultural significance of this iconic series makes it notable! everyone has heard of star wars- whether they like it or not. After all, 390,127 people declared themselves "Jedi" in the British 2001 census. The article could be a perfectly valid encyclopaedic entry if some of the more intricate detail were removed and the majority of the events on the list were links to existing articles or those of significance in the series. HJ Mitchell (talk) 11:50, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
]

We have those lists, though. We have lists of Star Wars works by inuniverse chronology. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 14:41, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • but do we have an article listing every significant event of the series in chronological order? That's what this is and, if refined, could simply be a timeline and a collection of links to the most important events in the Star Wars. HJ Mitchell (talk) 21:39, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question Is it proper for an editor to revert, and revert again, improvements to the article using independent reliable source citations, in an article which that editor is arguing to delete? DHowell (talk) 15:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    He appears to have explained his reverts well enough in the edit summaries. I think it's improper for you to use such sources as well. Doctorfluffy (robe and wizard hat) 16:34, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per DGG and because it seems to wildly surpase any and all sourcing guidelines. Yes, the best material is going to come from secondary sources that aren't independent, but there are plenty of books, articles and reviews to build something like this without those non-independent sources if needed. Hobit (talk) 17:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I concur- the subject would be difficult to write about if it weren't so extensively referenced in primary sources. HJ Mitchell (talk) 21:39, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clean it up. Every entry is going to need citing to the primary source itself. Conflicts within the timeline have to be shown, and only explained by citing reliable secondary sourcing. Hiding T 09:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    What reliable secondary sources would those be? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 09:33, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't recall saying there were any. If I'm honest, I think this is a copyright violation. But since I am not a judge, I can't rule that, and it is only a judge who can, not a lawyer or anyone else. If I were to back my judgemenbt, I'd say delete, per my extensive arguing up above, but as people have pointed out, that's not supported by policy or guidance or consensus. It's just supported by my personal morality on what's right. I think this article violates a number of fundamental points about what we're supposed to do here, from breaching copyright to breaching original research to breaching neutral point of view and breaching ideas we had against being used for marketing purposes. However, all the information is verifiable, it is of use to readers and it isn't false. There's no consensus here that this article or articles like it are a bad thing. So the article must, if kept, be edited in line with our policies. Which means every entry needs a cite, and every conflict within the timeline is listed, and only explained if a reliable secondary source can be cited. If there are none, we don't explain the conflicts. I donl;t believe there are secondary sources, but I'm prepared to be wrong. Do you think there's a consensus to delete? I don't, I don;t think there is even if you fall back on policy, because you'd be relying on the most contentious parts of policy, and overlooking
    WP:CONSENSUS. I'm beginning to think the only way forward is to let these articles grow and grow until someone files suit. Then we'll get a consensus. Hiding T 11:57, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    And to go further, attempts to erase conflicts are POV pushing and original research. If one source states a and a later source states b, because both these facts are fictional, b cannot be discarded in favor of a. We have to present them both and state, descriptively per
    WP:V as these are primary source, that the two sources conflict. We don't get to streamline the chronology, we don't get to decide one source is "truer" than another, we don't get to take a point of view. Since this article is built on primary source, it must only make uncontentious descriptions. Anyone contending that describing the fact that primary source 1 conflicts with primary source 2 is original research misunderstands what a description is. But like I say, I think this should be deleted for relying mainly on primary source. There's no two ways about that. All the sources are fiction, and are therefore primary source. Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology even notes in its introduction that it is a work of fiction. But I'm quite prepared to play long term. I am reasonably sure that in 100 years time this article will not generate as much controversy, and maybe, it would have been quietly prodded at some point between then and now. Hiding T 12:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Comment. If it's a copyvio, frankly, then George Lucas or the applicable authour should come up with some proof. If it's blatant, then I'd agree with Hiding, but, to date, nobody has come up with a book or URL from which this material has supposedly been copied. I stand by my position that, with a little tidying up and some research as to the contradictions, this would be a perfectly good article and an authoritative source for researching the subject. HJ Mitchell (talk) 14:50, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd be amazed to see this article become a perfectly good article and an authorative source and remain within the law. I'm also intrigued by the idea that an article on Wikipedia should be an authoratoive source. Out of curiousity, what do you understand by the terms "derivative work" and "ability to exploit"? Hiding T 19:18, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Clean up as necessary, don't destroy information. Keep per precedent of chronologies of other bestselling works of fiction such as Timeline_of_Arda. Jwray (talk) 15:40, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - essentially a modified, extended plot summary, almost entirely composed of either original research or material lifted straight from primary sources. I don't believe this topic has the real-world notability required to justify an article in its own right. Robofish (talk) 17:21, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Response. I respectfully, but strongly, disagree. There's a distinction between a plot summary and a chronology, albeit a blurry one, and this is the latter. Rather than explaining every event ever to happen in Star Wars (it'd be 10 times the size if it did), it summarises some of the most important events and links to their respective articles. It could be a decent navigation and reference source. It just needs consolidating and cleaning up. HJ Mitchell (talk) 17:51, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Actually, there is no distinction. You are summarising fiction. In this instance the fictional work being summarised is Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology, and the plot of the work centres on events within a galaxy over a timeframe. If you just want a navigation aid, use a template. if you want to be an encyclopedic reference source, go summarise secondary sources, oh wait, we don't have any, do we? Hiding T 19:18, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep the article gives useful information that helps one undertsand terminology used in other Wikipedia articles, mostly about Stars Wars. Sf46 (talk) 06:32, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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