Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Irene Byon

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this page.

Thanks everyone for participating and if you disagree with this decision please take it to Wikipedia:Deletion review - unless there is a tech issue. Thanks for assuming good faith and happy holidays! Missvain (talk) 04:06, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Irene Byon

Irene Byon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Fails

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Destroyeraa (Alternate account) 02:47, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:38, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Journalism-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:38, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of South Korea-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:38, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:38, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: This article is about a minority woman journalist, a gap that Wikipedia
  WP:ANYBIO states: The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for such an award several times and she has received a first place prize in the Society of Professional Journalists, is VP of the Asian American Journalists Association and has been nominated for an Emmy Award. 173.87.170.14 (talk) 21:21, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Delete - the inclusion of speculation about the involvement of her and a third-party in the Kenosha bus incident appears to be contradicted by
  WP:BASIC notability at this time. Beccaynr (talk) 15:32, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• • Comment: The link to Snopes now says the story is "True" (it had been "Unproven" on November 22). BBQboffin (talk) 18:03, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think the additional reporting by Snopes helps emphasize the
    WP:JOURNALIST even if it is included. Beccaynr (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
    ]

• Delete Being a minority and a woman doesn't mean your article is relevant. There's plenty of minority women local news contributors and mid-level network employees out there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shamona99 (talk • contribs) 15:39, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep along the lines of 173.87.170.14 - she's been nominated or won for multiple awards that seem significant. NHCLS (talk) 15:14, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Notable for (1) Two Emmy award nominations and the 1st place SPJ Award; (2) Starring role in the "Irene, the Coffee Intern" viral video on Huffington Post comedy section; and (3) Mentioned by name by the judge in the Kyle Rittenhouse trial.

Yes, (3) made her "famous" as the OP noted, but she was "notable" for (1) and (2) before that happened.

The essay What BLP1E is not informed my thoughts: While (3) is "One Dominant Event", it is not the only event she's notable for. I see "a pattern of involvement in smaller (but still worthy of mention) events", which, considered in aggregate, make the subject notable.

I'm not aware that Epoch Times or "what appeared to be a blog" was ever a source for anything in this article and it isn't currently. The Snopes source that Beccaynr found confirms her job title and location and quotes the judge's verbatim words in court, naming her in context, so I added it to the article just now, thanks. BBQboffin (talk) 06:09, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment In the revision history of the article, I noted in the edit summary [1] where I removed what appears to be a blog that relies on a report from the

WP:EPOCHTIMES, which you appear to have added when you created this article [2]. Beccaynr (talk) 15:57, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Ah, I see the your[News] source I originally put on was sourced by Epoch Times. Careless of me. Good catch there, and good riddance to it, but a moot point (

WP:IMPERFECT). The Kenosha trial paragraph now has 5 sources including AP, KenoshaNews, Law and Crime, etc. BBQboffin (talk) 21:51, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

WP:MINORASPECT of her BLP. Beccaynr (talk) 12:52, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

These "regional" Emmy nominations and "local" SPJ award and leadership and "minor" viral moment each originated in the LA/San Diego market, which is tens of millions of people and therefore more competitive. It's a "pattern of involvement" (as per

WP:MINORASPECT and consequently it is only two sentences out of twelve currently in the article. 5 of the 15 sources pertain to it but I only added more to try to address the WP:RS concerns you raised. BBQboffin (talk) 20:12, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

• Keep - She has credentials as a producer with a major media outlet. — Maile (talk) 15:25, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 00:56, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - the awards and award nominations would seem to establish notability irrespective of anything Kenosha related TocMan (talk) 22:46, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: I think this is a fairly marginal case, but meets
  WP:ANYBIO because of the awards. I also don't think it hurts Wikipedia to have more articles on female journalists. Marquardtika (talk) 14:14, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Comment I removed Union-Tribune wins 36 awards including top news site in local journalism contest (San Diego Union Tribune, 2020) from the article because it does not mention Byon, but I think it helps show the SPJ San Diego award is not a well-known and significant award or honor per

BLP does not appear to have sufficient support according to our policies and guidelines. Beccaynr (talk) 16:12, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

The awards she was nominated for are properly called "Emmy Awards" and were reported in the San Diego Union Tribune with that name. Deleting that source and substituting a name that is not used widely in the industry does not improve the article. While the regional ceremonial awards event sometimes include the name (e.g. "Pacific Southwest Emmy Awards"), but the awards themselves are overwhelmingly referred to in the press as "Emmy Awards" or sometimes "regional Emmy Awards". The "regional" is not meant to be diminutive. The awards are by region so that there is fair competition in covering the same new events, e.g. a TV station in Southern California would not be able to cover Hurricane Katrina as well as a news team in New Orleans, for example. BBQboffin (talk) 18:24, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ANYBIO. And the San Diego Union Tribune article linked above discusses the San Diego SPJ award, not the Emmys. Beccaynr (talk) 18:49, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

A regional Emmy is nevertheless a type of Emmy award; as you pointed out, there are Daytime Emmy Awards, Primetime Emmy Awards, etc. and these awards are "well-known and significant". Every single recipient listed on those pages has their own Wikipedia page as one would expect. The Emmy is a well-known and significant award and winners are notable, as are those who have been nominated multiple times. She was the producer and not merely "part of a team". BBQboffin (talk) 17:59, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Marginal, as noted above; barely meets criteria, but still meets.Mwinog2777 (talk) 16:22, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: While the !votes are tending towards a keep, the majority are not backed by policy/notability guides but rather personal beliefs. I agree with more women on Wikipedia too, but that's not a valid reason to !vote keep.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ifnord (talk) 22:57, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete More of a foot note in the Kenosha affair, rather than notable on her own. Oaktree b (talk) 02:17, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I found a rather famous AfD involving a journalist with regional Emmys in 2007: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Susan_Peters_(TV_anchor) and the AfD discussion itself became a news story. https://web.archive.org/web/20140310010433/http://weekendamerica.publicradio.org/programs/2007/01/20/marked_for_deletion.html

At the time, for Peters, the the only notability factor were the awards (she didn't have a viral coffee video, or a half-dozen news articles naming her in a high-profile murder trial), and with fewer !votes, the result was Keep after just one relist.

Many of the issues were similar: whether regional Emmys should "count" or not as a measure of notability. For a local/regional journalist this Emmy is the most prestigious award they could receive (as they are not eligible to complete nationally), and so to dismiss the regional Emmy award is to dismiss all other awards they won or could be nominated for. The argument for delete is in essence: no local/regional journalist can achieve notability on the basis of winning awards. That argument was rejected in the Susan Peters AfD and it should be rejected once again today. BBQboffin (talk) 03:17, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment In the
  WP:JOURNALIST criteria supported by independent and reliable sources. Beccaynr (talk) 17:19, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Inexplicable? Hardly. Sorry, I've only been editing a few months and I make a lot of mistakes; thanks for fixing the location of the section heading.

  As I read the 2021 Lana Zak AfD discussion, it looks like the page[6] was created by a banned user and there were a lack of sources showing her winning an Emmy, a Peabody, and a Edward R. Murrow award but not much attempt was made to find them. Maybe that will be my next project! Contrast with Byon where we have sourcing to NATAS and SPJ, and they haven't yet banned me for misplacing section headings and mistakenly linking to blogs. :) BBQboffin (talk) 01:25, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: The Emmy nom is a very strong indication of notability, even if an award was not obtained. The page could use some reliable sources from news media with SIGCOV so it can remain within the articlespace. Multi7001 (talk) 05:19, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep for all of the reasons cited above. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:57, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Article is notable and reliable sources are present. Its organized and good quality so its a keep from me. HelpingWorld (talk) 04:46, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per Marquardtika. Heartmusic678 (talk) 14:16, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Fails
  WP:NOTAVOTE. If you look at the sources, none of the independent references have Irene Byon as the primary subject. The article is mainly sourced to the University of California's Annenberg Media Center's alumni page from which Byon graduated. Byon likely wrote the content of this page herself. That is telling. The other sources are also primary sources, with the awards websites, professional society websites, and press releases being used to verify her local award nominations and wins for the San Diego region (note California has multiple regional Emmys, so these aren't even state wide awards but at the city/metropolitan area level). All the other sources are primary as well, as they are content generated by Byon while on the job. There is no independent coverage of her work outside of the awards, and that coverage is all primary. 4meter4 (talk) 15:05, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  • Comment: There is no "San Diego region" for the Emmys; California has multiple regions because it is a state of 40M people. The Pacific Southwest Region in question includes San Diego, but also Las Vegas, Bakersfield, and several other counties which together comprise a population greater than most US states. If regional Emmys and awards that aren't state wide or national "don't count" for notability, that information should be put explicitly in WP:NJOURNALIST or WP:ANYBIO to reflect that policy. The many !votes to keep suggests to me that it is not consensus here "that regional Emmy Awards are non-notable". As I pointed out above, Susan Peters AfD was a famous example in 2007 where regional Emmys did establish notability, so if that's no longer the case or this AfD was a rare exception, can we please clarify what the official policy is? BBQboffin (talk) 06:07, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• BBQboffin, you are missing the forrest for the trees. A few points. First, cherrypicking a single AFD to establish a precedent for regional Emmys is not a valid argument.
  Regional Emmy Awards are not significant awards. They do not receive much media coverage, nor are its winners given much thought or attention for that honor after they win. That is not the case for national Emmy Award nominees and winners who are given much coverage in secondary and tertiary sources in relation to the award over time. With 20 regions and 60 award categories, there are 1800 regional Emmy Award recipients every year. It's a relatively common award. Lastly, we have zero independent significant secondary and tertiary sources for this person. As such, there is not a strong argument to keep this article.4meter4 (talk) 13:42, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Susan Peters was admitted to the Silver Circle (a society, not an award) in 2014. The AfD occurred in 2007, and per WP:CRYSTAL the editors did not keep based on some future expectations. Her page was kept based on the significance and notability that her regional Emmys gave her. WP:OTHERSTUFF states "If you reference such a past debate, and it is clearly a very similar case to the current debate, this can be a strong argument that should not be discounted because of a misconception that this section is a blanket ban on ever referencing other articles or deletion debates." I'm not cherry-picking Susan Peters, but I am sticking a [citation needed] tag on your claim that there's a "long standing precedent" that regional Emmys aren't notable. BBQboffin (talk) 17:18, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh. There are many counterexamples BBQboffin. Such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rachel Frank (meteorologist). Regardless, other discussions really aren't pertinent to this one.4meter4 (talk) 19:16, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. I agree with the above, this fails
  WP:GNG. Teh award she recieved is *not* an Emmy, its some regional version of the Emmy. The RS here are largely from non acceptable sources, some alumni material, or they are news sources actually discussing some incident that she was involved with. The sources don't really feature her. No independent sources here establishing her notability. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:56, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Delete. A regional TV journalist whose career doesn't meet the criteria in
  WP:BLUDGEON. Blue Riband► 04:27, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: This requires more discussion on whether being nominated for a Pacific Southwest Chapter of the National Television Academy Emmy award constitutes notability.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – bradv^🍁 05:07, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete fails GNG by my estimation (t · c) buidhe 05:34, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. A regional TV journalist - RS doesn't establish broad notability - fails GNG and
  WP:NJOURNALIST. There is mention of an Emmy; however, its simply a local Emmy award, which (as mentioned above) doesn't qualify. Deathlibrarian (talk) 08:08, 18 December 2021 (UTC) - strike double !vote - Beccaynr (talk) 14:02, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep WP:ANYBIO. 80.247.89.52 (talk) 17:16, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete fails GNG and
  WP:NJOURNALIST Cedar777 (talk) 20:40, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Delete Fails
  WP:NJOURNALIST. References are very very poor. No indication of being notable. scope_creep^Talk 20:55, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Delete Mere nomination for a regional Emmy is irrelevant towards notability . DGG ( talk ) 07:25, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete None of the coverage so far rises to the level of significance needed to establish notability. The Keep arguments seem to be basing the notability claim on the Regional Emmy nomination. However, the only sources reporting on the Regional Emmy seem to be from the Academy itself and from NBC, who as her employer can not be considered a neutral 3rd-party source. As such, she's really only known for this one footnote from the Rittenhouse trial.Aervanath (talk) 21:11, 25 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this page.