Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Black Golden Globe Award winners and nominees

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Although I disagree with the statement at the bottom that there is an "overwhelming" consensus, (not a vote and all that) there is a rough consensus to keep.

talk) 01:29, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply
]

List of Black Golden Globe Award winners and nominees

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Aside from the fact that the article has been tagged as referenceless since March 2008 (that's 3 years), I don't believe there is any reason whatsoever to have an article which is a

CONTENT FORK of the original Golden Globe awards article. The sole difference is that this article is based on all the black nominees and I find that highly trivial and unnecessary. All the black nominees are listed in their awards' appropriate article. There is no need to single them out here. Feedback ☎ 20:03, 21 February 2011 (UTC) Feedback ☎ 20:03, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply
]

  1. There is no such thing as the "Black Golden Globe Awards", there's only the regular one. Unless Black became a proper noun all of a sudden this page is about a non-existent award. (If kept should be moved to List of black Golden Globe Award winners and nominees)
  2. Pointless racial segregation. Black people have been winning and nominated for decades.
  3. Nominations are not notable for there own articles, see the various lists with awards and lack of lists about nominations. Nominations go on the actors and the film articles, it does not warrant its own article. Xeworlebi (talk) 14:37, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Which, frankly, should be immediately reverted... since doing so treats this list like a bio-specific category. Bulldog123 13:33, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Bulldog123 reasons above.--DThomsen8 (talk) 19:04, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete per Bulldog123. This is not a case like the oscars or presidential candidates (
    African American candidates for President of the United States ) where having black participants was considered to be a major game changer. Unlike the others, this wasn't considered a significant topic of civil rights or something that brought about major change.--Yaksar (let's chat) 06:07, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Like it or not, there has been a considerable amount written about the neglect of black actors/actresses with major awards within the entertainment industry in the United States Right... but how is this not a
    WP:OR-ish reason for keeping the list? We don't create lists to make points about the Hollywood Foreign Press Association's "neglect" of African Americans. Bulldog123 12:31, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply
    ]
How exactly is this original research? There is no original synthesis and similar lists have been published elsewhere, such as here. I can't see in what way OR applies to this particular article. If anything you seem to be objecting to the
WP:N. Best.4meter4 (talk) 12:49, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply
]
Yes because we're judging whether or not this is an irrelevant intersection. I don't see the external refs that comment on the relevance of the intersection, because it needs to be "...in some way a culturally significant phenomenon." Where does it say that
Golden Globes and African Americans together form something "culturally significant?" Okay, you found the list published somewhere... well, a lot of places publish similar lists intersecting award winners of various backgrounds (Irish Echo, for example)... it doesn't meant they're all suitable for wikipedia. Bulldog123 13:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply
]
I've already given a well reasoned arguement that satisfies the criteria of
WP:N policy that this articles should be deleted. Best.4meter4 (talk) 13:19, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply
]
No, I've already stated why this article should be deleted and that's because it's a cross-categorization of two disparate things (Golden Globes, black people) and not a "culturally distinct phenomenon" documented by external sources. I don't see how you can buy the argument that "because the list is published, it must mean the intersection is worthy of its own topic article
WP:NOTDIR where it says this type of combination is not notable. The article that you are !voting to keep is African Americans in cinema, not African Americans & The Golden Globes. Bulldog123 13:28, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply
]
Sigh. I think the fact that such lists have been published in respectable works on African-Americans in cinema proves that this isn't random cross-categorization. Best.4meter4 (talk) 13:32, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Okay so List of left-handed actors would also be legitimate per this published list of left-handed actors? Bulldog123 13:35, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Or List of movies that involve math per http://www.math.harvard.edu/~knill/mathmovies/ ?--Yaksar (let's chat) 13:44, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Those are hardly fair comparisons. This is vearing off into
WP:Otherstuffexists territory and is not helpful. We could easily point to other groups who might make a reasonable list, like List of LGBT winners of the Golden Globes. Let's discuss this list solely based on its own merits and evidence. Best.4meter4 (talk) 13:46, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply
]
  • keep per Mandsford. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:01, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and end this ridiculous assault on every ethnic category, list, and infobox entry in the project. Ethnicity is so incredibly tied to identity that to deny it in every place we can find on WP is a fool's errand. The fact is that people do have major perceptions of self and others based upon these qualities. A quick google scholar search for "ethnicity and identity" finds over 400,000 scholarly articles. Denial is original research - wishing that enthicity wasn't important to people's self-identity and their perceptions of others does not make it so. The sources talk about the topic as it is written, and we are ethically bound to follow the sources. This is clearly a notable topic, reliable sources cover it in sufficient detail to support the article, and we are obliged to keep and maintain it. Jim Miller See me | Touch me 14:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Denial is original research - wishing that enthicity wasn't important to people's self-identity and their perceptions of others does not make it so. I presume you meant to say "careers" or "ability to win awards"... because otherwise your !vote seems to be in the wrong AfD. This isn't an AfD for the deletion of all mentions of ethnicity on Wikipedia. Now, regarding the
    Martin van Buren a Dutch-American United States president. I mean... after all... he is. Bulldog123 18:10, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Keep A notable, encyclopedic topic backed by dozens of reliable and verifiable sources. This is what lists are for. Alansohn (talk) 19:03, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep per outstanding improvements by editor Epeefleche. The ample references specifically about black people in the performing arts show that this sort of list is noteable and doesnt have to be OR. Dream is of course right that its a shame some choose to separate themselves from their brothers and sisters on grounds of race, but its a part of mainstream educational thinking that some members of minority groups benefit by being inspired with role models of their own ethnicity, so this sort of list is very valuable. FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
All those references talk about African Americans and cinema which we all know is a very important cultural topic, but how is African Americans and the Golden Globes SPECIFICALLY important enough for its own article? Again, we're voting on wether this article should exist, not "The African American Struggle in the Performing Arts". It seems to me that you don't even know what you're voting for. Feedback ☎ 20:37, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The opening text of the article and the many refs that are in it, some of which are discussed above, are replete with such discussion of the intersection. Many of the !votes here, the majority of which are to keep the article, point to and/or discuss that.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:40, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment No one is arguing that race in acting has had an important history, just that race in the Golden Globes has never been a significant topic. This really would set a problematic precedent. Race in business has had an important history. Race in crime has had an important history. Should every award in a field that has been affected by race have lists split up by race? Should we have an article on "List of black rapists" "List of Asian drug dealers" or "List of white armed robbers" because race is an important issue in crime? Should the Mark Twain prize have a list for each race since race has been an important issue in comedy?--Yaksar (let's chat) 23:20, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The point here is that multiple reliable independent sources, including academic publications and major news organizations, have discussed the Golden Globe Awards within the context of
WP:N. Stop using false comparisons please.4meter4 (talk) 00:18, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply
]
I'm looking through the sources, and race in the golden globes seems to be mentioned as either a tidbit in an article about a black person winning, or in the case of the book on blacks in cinema, just in an appendix. We could also find countless articles on, say, celebrities wearing a particular suit or brand of glasses, but we don't have "People who wear X." And don't say that couldn't be sourced, I guarantee I could find you a million people magazine articles about all the celebrities who have worn a particular dress best, or whatever.--Yaksar (let's chat) 00:23, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
actually, I think we probably could have a list of "Notable film characters wearing clothing designed by Adrian" Some intersections are significant enough. DGG ( talk ) 05:34, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, I see no problem with list of black rapists. There are multiple reliable sources that document the link between race and rape... especially black on white rape. It seems way more relevant that the connection between the Hollywood Foreign Press Association's statue and race. Here's the first one on google [6]. And here's the cat: Category:Rapists_by_nationality Bulldog123 06:40, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There's a big difference there. Films with clothes by Adrian would be the equivalent of a filmography, something perfectly acceptable and encyclopedic, and totally different from the "who wore it best" kind of lists I was referring to.--Yaksar (let's chat) 06:48, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Kudos to User:Epeefleche for the work done on improving this article and putting this into context. Mandsford 12:44, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You realize that all User:Epeefleche did was add references right? He literally changed nothing of the actual content in the article. [7] Feedback ☎ 14:28, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, to give him credit, I think he added all that worthless
WP:TRIVIA at the top. Stuff like In 2009, when Black actor Tracy Morgan was awarded a Golden Globe, he joked: "I'm the face of post-racial America. Deal with it, Cate Blanchett.". Great. Instead of a random ethnicity/occupation list, we have a big repository of loosely-associated factoids with no order or logical flow. Yup, "kudos." Facepalm Facepalm Bulldog123 16:07, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply
]
Tx. Agreed. The overwhelming consensus appears to be to keep, as I see it.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:48, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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