Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Media bias against Bernie Sanders

Concerns with

WP:BOLD and does not invalidate the authenticity of the collected information itself. That this article should be deleted because there may be a lot to add or amend (due to this article's length) constitutes catch-22 type reasoning, as had the article been shorter, it could've been criticized as an stub that doesn't merit its own article. There needs to be a possible avenue for adding new content as per BOLD, even if it is disagreed with by some. Selvydra (talk) 21:40, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Agreed. I would also add that I would strongly recommend an interested editor to find information and sources that respond to the accusations of bias to give the article a more balanced perspective. The criticism section was my attempt—thought to be honest, I was hard-pressed to find refutations. Almost all the sources gave some credence to the bias, including the sources that responded to the accusations by Sanders, his campaign, or his supporters. Andrew Z. Colvin • Talk 22:19, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Although some may take issue with the idea there's any bias against Sanders, it seems clear to me that there is

• Merge to
  WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST. If the media coverage of other candidates is a notable enough topic that it justifies a separate article, there's nothing stopping anyone from creating those. Zrowny (talk) 22:26, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

I could get behind support of a merge with a broader article like the one you linked. This might be a good compromise of an obviously notable subject. Andrew Z. Colvin • Talk 22:54, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this in principle, but the Media coverage of Bernie Sanders article referenced in this and other comments appears to have been deleted or renamed. Can anyone confirm what happened to that article? Barefootmatt (talk) 05:31, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Barefootmatt, as far as I can tell, there is not, and has never been, an article at that name. It's just a suggestion about how to rename this article more neutrally if it is to be kept. Ionmars10 (talk) 21:57, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per
  WP:NPOV as to be unsalvageable.Adoring nanny (talk
  )

Would you provide some examples that indicate the article is unsalvageable? The article consistently mentions instances where respondents disagree or interpret the accusations. Also, if you'd like, you are welcome to cite sources that refute the accusations. There is criticism section that does this. It is short, but that is due to the fact that I was unable to find many criticisms from the media. What I did find was a lot of articles agreeing that some for of bias or misreporting exists but is explained by alternative causes. Andrew Z. Colvin • Talk 22:53, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The title is the first clue. Then in the very first paragraph, I see at least four further problems, one of which I will name -- the fact that paragraph closes with a discussion of what the Sanders campaign says. "Unsalvageable" is a conclusion that comes, not from one individual issue, but from the accumulation of all of them.Adoring nanny (talk) 23:05, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't find your argument that the title and referencing the claims of the campaign make the issue "unsalvagable" to be persuasive. I know you mentioned having other issues, but I assume you mentioned the ones that you see as the worst. I definitely don't think that you've made a case justifying removal. Slapbox (talk) 23:42, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep: I want to reiterate everything
  talk) 23:11, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

The article may meet GNG, but as it stands a majority of the article is written in a non-neutral point of view and would require a complete rework of the article, if the article is not

WP:ILIKEIT is very disingenuous and ignores all concerns about neutrality posed. — Chevvin 00:14, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Agreed. There is discussion here including legitimate concerns -- it's certainly disingenuous to lump that all together as

WP:NOT. Quac (talk) 01:15, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Given the controversial nature of the subject, the authors seem to have made a valiant effort to cite a plethora of data and analysis. They succeeded: Most paragraphs outlining instances of bias against sanders are devoid of any spin, and sticks to the facts. All reals concerned about neutrality should be addressed by editing the article, but painting the whole article as written in a non-neutral way is incorrect.

talk) 01:04, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

A rename to Media coverage of Bernie Sanders would miss the point that the article is addressing specifically the widespread conclusion that there is an anti-Sanders bias. If a rename were necessary, a better choice would be Alleged media bias against Bernie Sanders. I don’t think that’s necessary, however. We have articles on Loch Ness Monster and Popish Plot with no "alleged" in the title. As long as the article reports the theory and the opposition to the theory, with a fair presentation of the facts relied on by each side, it’s NPOV. JamesMLane t c 02:50, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep the article, as it clearly meets
  Emass100; the scope of article is a specific phenomenon of bias against Sanders (which, per article, has been widely noted in reliable secondary sources), rather than media coverage of him generally. Morgan695 (talk) 23:26, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep. The phenomenon is objectively verifiable. Sorry I don't know any WP:buzzwords.
  canvassed to this discussion. [reply
  ]

• Keep - There has been plenty of articles, as well as much discussion from the Sanders campaign and its supporters themselves, about lack of media coverage. Might should be written to be more neutral, but definitely a noteworthy topic. Zellfire999 (talk) 00:22, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - How much proof is needed? It's actually happening, it's notable and it's important enough for a page. This site is noe routinely amazingly silly. AllThatJazz2012 (talk) 00:46, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete or Merge- Bernie Sanders is one of the most well known canaduates of the democratic primaries, and any bias can be laughed off considering that negative articles get posted about every single candidate. Anything that gets posted about Sanders gets 10X the signal boost on social media compared to Biden or Butti or literally anybody else. There have been positive pieces written about Bernie Sanders EVERY SINGLE DAY. Either make the tone of the article abide to
  WP:NPOV or delete it. Swordman97 ^{talk to me} 01:15, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep. Extensive RS coverage, often as the primary subject. As for concerns that this would open up the door for other similar articles, so what? If bias against another candidate has received as much RS coverage as it has for Sanders, then let that article be made. Phediuk (talk) 01:57, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. May need some work with NPOV, but it is clearly notable. Most of the issues mentioned by those in favor of deletion are
  WP:SURMOUNTABLE, and thus not a valid reason for deletion. InverseHypercube (talk) 02:15, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep — valid topic for an article, particularly going into an election year.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:26, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Move to
  Avial Cloffprunker (talk) 02:27, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Additionally: I agree completely with the observations of original research and synthesis in

Avial Cloffprunker (talk) 02:44, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

• Keep, article meets GNG as the subject has received significant, independent coverage as demonstrated by: The Hill, Politico, Vox, Jacobin, The Independent, and Fox News.

However, I will point out that in its current state, the article has major concerns. Large sections of text are sourced to a MintPress News article, a source which

this section (which accuses CNN of contradicting themselves by citing two separate CNN articles). I believe all of these problems, as well as any NPOV issues, are fixable, though. Surachit (talk) 02:39, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

• Keep. Wikipedia reports facts, including facts about significant opinions. The citations in the article show that this thesis is held widely enough to be notable. Opposition to it is also notable and must be reported in the article, as indeed it is. If some people see bias in that the side they agree with isn't presented as well as they think it could be, they can add properly cited material. JamesMLane t c 02:56, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Facts". Like the assumed premise? --Calton | Talk 03:52, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • The article reports both sides. It doesn't assume anything. It is a demonstrable fact that the accusation of bias is a belief widely held and reported on. JamesMLane t c 06:06, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. You have GOT to be kidding me. This is the POV Coatrack to end all POV Coatracks, a message that assumes its conclusions before piling on. You might just as well post a "This message paid for by the Bernie for President campaign" at the top. Let Jacobin or The Intercept run this themselves. --Calton | Talk 03:52, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

May I direct you to Trump derangement syndrome. POV allegations in this discussion have, so far, been excessively based on individual's disagreement with the existence of the media bias. Whether or not the bias exists, discussion of the bias does. And it is well documented by the mainstream media. I suggest you actually read some of the sources cited in the text. Further, according to the NPOV policy, there are 5 major factors needing considered:

• Avoid stating opinions as facts.
• Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts.
• Avoid stating facts as opinions.
• Prefer nonjudgmental language.
• Indicate the relative prominence of opposing views.

There is, to my knowledge, nowhere in the article that states opinions as facts. It plainly states what journalists say. That's it. Additionally, there is no undue weight as the article contains a section about opposition as well as media responses to the accusations of bias. The only POV violation that could possibly be found would be wording issues that may need to be edited or rewritten to sound more neutral. Controversial political topics are increasingly difficult to word without offending someone's sense of neutrality or objectivity. Andrew Z. Colvin • Talk 18:58, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge. With Bernie Sanders 2016 presidential campaign and Bernie Sanders 2020 presidential campaign, similarly to the way Media Coverage is a separate section on Andrew Yang 2020 presidential campaign and on Tulsi Gabbard 2020 presidential campaign articles. TXephy (talk) 04:25, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Such a merger would immediately be followed by a chorus of "undue weight" and demands to eliminate a great deal of properly sourced information. This is an excellent case for

WP:SS: Keep this separate article, while leaving a summary in the parent article. If accusations of bias concerning Gabbard or Yang or anyone else become similarly significant, so that the presentation of the relevant facts (pro and con) threatens to swamp the main article about the campaign, then the same treatment will be appropriate. JamesMLane t c 06:06, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

• Keep. Wikipedia's mission statement notes, "Wikipedia's purpose is to benefit readers by acting as an encyclopedia, a comprehensive written compendium that contains information on all branches of knowledge." This article complies with that stated goal, while deletion of this article is antithetical to it. I agree that the article could use some editing, but that is the case with all newly created Wikipedia pages. While I value the work of volunteers protect Wikipedia from self-interest abuse, such censorship is in direct contradiction to Wikipedia's role as a "a radically collaborative, truly open website, that actually produces content that the general public might want to read," as noted by Wikipedia co-founder Larry Sanger. Wikigratia (talk) 04:57, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: I just ran across this and thought it was interesting. I started reading after looking at this deletion nomination. I honestly don't see the NPOV claims here. Cause so far it is just basically laying out exactly what the sources are saying. Just making a point, then citing it. Pretty straight-forward, exactly like the article topic suggests. There is enough material and sources here to justify a standalone article because apparently it is a measurable thing. Moving forward, it may be a historical topic as well. Just like the 1944 Democratic Party vice presidential candidate selection. Overall, I see this article has justified notability and existence as well as being factual and neutral as best as it can be.--WillC 08:43, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Delete - So I'm avowed Sanderista, but I'm a bit gob smacked at the existence of this page. I could list a lot of the
  WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguement (or in this case, other stuff doesn't exist). How many other Media bias against X pages are there? NickCT (talk) 15:29, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Something I haven't seen proponents of delete or merge explain yet is this: How is an editor meant to ever contribute an article that is (allegedly; see Trump derangement syndrome) the first one of its kind? Are they expected to create similar articles for other such notable people and post them simultaneously to justify the existence of the category? If not, then is Sanders not sufficiently noteworthy a politician to meet the criteria of a first?

And, regarding

WP:NPOV concerns – if the body of content available on the topic doesn't have a 50/50 for-and-against distribution (as was indicated by the author on this page), is an editor to artificially create one in the article? Selvydra (talk) 23:19, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

@Selvydra: - re "first one of its kind" - So you're saying we should start writing Media bias against X articles? You realize that could potentially be thousands of articles? Everyone is going to want to write about why the media is unfair to their candidate. It would change WP from an encyclopedia into a forum for political shenanigans. NickCT (talk) 12:18, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@NickCT: – If there's a large enough body of discussion to write an article about it that isn't a stub, then why not? You'll probably find that, for most other US contenders, there isn't, and thus no-one has written one. Selvydra (talk) 17:24, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Selvydra: - "You'll probably find that, for most other US contenders" - Probably not. I guarantee you, for every Dem Primary contender someone has written something about how the media is biased against that person. NickCT (talk) 18:25, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And forget just the Dem Primary contenders. "Media is biased" articles have been written about every politician in US History. Forget politicians, how about celebrities? Or any other random topic. We could have millions of "Media bias against X" articles. You want to open that pandora's box? NickCT (talk) 18:29, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Of course. Wikipedia does not (practically speaking) hold a finite amount of space wherein you'd have to start arbitrating which categories of articles do and do not get to exist. That should be determined by whether there is enough content on the subject to write an article about it. For instance, "Media bias vs. Hickenlooper" is a valid article to explore, but you'd probably be able to count the number of existing sources with one hand. Contrast that to this article. I will point to what SharabSalam replied to you re:

WP:SOAP have had valid counter-arguments presented to them by many on this page. Selvydra (talk) 23:09, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

The "infinite space for infinite nonsense"argument, huh? Last respite of the inclusion-ists. Look..... at some point you've got to have an opinion about what content simply isn't encyclopedic.

You seem to accept there's a

WP:OTHER should be making you reconsider. NickCT (talk) 00:16, 6 December 2019 (UTC)'[reply

]

Arguments can be made on most anything, but whether they are valid is another question. My opinion on the inclusion threshold is informed chiefly by

WP:N

. Other parameters will move that threshold up or down, but when you can write an article with 50+ citations -- even if some are called into question -- on the topic, the answer should be clear.

On a more common-sense level: This is a topic that US mainstream media is discouraged from covering impartially, as it stands to hurt them. The existence of media bias vs. Sanders follows rudimentary logic: the media in question is private, for-profit and owned by big corporations whose financial interests run counter to his politics. They have a responsibility to their shareholders, and prioritizing impartiality over profit would be harmful to that. Thus, there is a direct incentive to be as biased against candidates like Sanders as they can be while still retaining plausible deniability.

WP:NPOV on the basis that the article has more content in opposition to than in favor of their ideology, whereas that coverage distribution is merely a consequence of the distribution of existing work on the subject. Given the obvious premise of big-corporation-owned media being biased against a leftist who has made breaking up big corporations part of their agenda -- the existence of this bias and its quantification in tallies (published by sources outside of this media, rather obviously) by default has more merit than the simple opinion of someone standing atop a soapbox. Selvydra (talk) 19:00, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

• Keep but the current title is biased, so it should definitely be moved to Allegations of media bias against Bernie Sanders. Whether or not there is actually a media bias, there have been allegations from credible sources, and so I believe they should be documented. -- Earl Andrew - talk 16:05, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I could get on board with a retitling to Allegations of media bias against Bernie Sanders. That would be more neutral and still indicate that it is a notable topic owrthy of documentation—whether or not it is true. Andrew Z. Colvin • Talk 19:06, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. The recent broadcasting of the idea that there is media bias against Bernie Sanders is the result of a coordinated marketing push by the Bernie Sanders campaign and its media outlets, such as Common Dreams and Jacobinmag. The article absurdly cites Bernie Sanders campaign hacks as reliable sources. Do we want a Wikipedia article for every marketing campaign that each Democratic candidate comes up with? Or only for one particular candidate? — goethean 16:36, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But how is one supposed to write about the bias of mainstream media without using alternative media as sources? One can't expect sources to be virtuous enough as to impartially discuss their own bias – and thus, placing a requirement of mainstream media sourcing on this topic to me seems tantamount to saying that the impartiality of said media is not allowed to be questioned as long as it itself doesn't admit to it. What's more, mainstream media *has* been cited in this article, but people still take issue with the presence of alternative media. That doesn't seem like a good recipe for balanced discussion on the topic. Selvydra (talk) 23:19, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't a "co-ordinated marketing push" by any campaign or its "media outlets", this information has been around since the last election stemming from Wikileaks emails, personal admissions of MSM higher-ups (specifically Donna Brazile) and swaths of online and personal anecdotes corroborated by groups of people. This also occurred with Donald Trump, and has now notably become an issue for both Andrew Yang and Tulsi Gabbard. This article is an analysis of the media bias, far removed from a marketing campaign that you claim. If you can handle the other Wikileaks releases pertaining to Edward Snowden and the NSA, Chelsea Manning's military documents and the Panama Papers, I don't see why the leaked DNC emails are any different. The information speaks for itself, and backs up the article past reasonable doubt through to legitimacy.

talk) 08:25, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

goethean, the moment you called individuals representing the campaign hacks, you lost credibility for your support for deletion. That is not a valid response regarding this issue. Obviously the subject matter is credible enough to be covered by a variety of sources as listed in the article itself.WillC 12:13, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'll tell you who has lost credibility here—it's the editor who positively gushed over an article filled with POV and WP:RS violations. — goethean 15:56, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Something which you failed to actually prove goethean. Because majority of the sources are CNN, Yahoo, WP, NYT, Hill, etc. If there are POV of issues, point them out exactly like a peer review either here or on the talk page. Allow editors to solve the issue. If the naming is a problem, create a naming issue. Otherwise, you are showing a desire to just kill the article rather than actually improve it beyond the problems.WillC 18:26, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Something which you failed to actually prove goethean.

Wrong. I removed sections of the article that were poorly sourced. But they were intact in the version which you blithely found to be hunky-dory. I support deletion of the article. It is a POV violation. It is the product of a campaign by Sanders to obtain more friendly media coverage. It looks like they have succeeded—at least at Wikipedia, which seems to be perfectly amenable to the Sanders campaign using Wikipedia as a vehicle to promote Bernie Sanders. — goethean 20:47, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yet again, I don't think this should be immediately shut down as a "product" by someone somewhere in the Sanders campaign, because it's not actually true. Yes, members of pro-Bernie groups have been made aware of this article on reddit, but that only goes so far as to implicate canvassing on the part of some Wikipedia users here. I don't see an inside job here, that is just an unbacked claim. You support its deletion, fine, POV issues are certainly an issue with this page. Calling it a Sanders campaign product however? Very debatable. — Preceding

talk • contribs) 21:36, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Goethean you didn't do anything but remove stuff you didn't agree with. Sections cited by CNN, WP, Independent, etc. Then change things to fit a narrative you wanted, like titling In These Times as a left-wing magazine to make it sound more fringe which isn't NPOV. In These Times is a progressive magazine which most of the Democratic Party likes to suggest it. If we went by that, MSNBC would be called a left-wing news agency. Meanwhile, you've positioned this as a marketing campaign when it was discussed by agencies outside of the campaign long before this article even existed. Even it the idea of bias was a campaign, it has grown large enough that is it an actual thing that is pointed out by news agencies. Every comment you make shows you don't have a neutral view on this subject to begin with and shouldn't be editing this article. That you believe none of it is even true and thus can't be objective.WillC 21:49, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You are lying. I removed material which was sourced to the mysterious and disreputable anonymous crypto-blog MintPress News. If I were you, I would be ashamed to have praised a version of the article that contained material sourced to a fake news site. — goethean 22:24, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mighty strong accusations there. What about removing a WP citation here? [en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Media_bias_against_Bernie_Sanders&diff=prev&oldid=928981284 Removing CNN here], which was actually a valid paragraph to show contradiction in media reports that could have been re-written to pass any policy issues. I'd argue the reliability of this source Removing Independent and Pew citations here. So you've removed reliable citations covering information that could remain in the article. Yet removed everything it says and connected to it all for issues behind 2 or 3 sources. Using terms like fake news is a stretch. Again showing you can't be objective with your statements and your viewpoints. You obviously have a biased against the article and anything discussing this topic as "fake news". Again, you shouldn't be editing this article.WillC 07:32, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Every single one of my edits follow Wikipedia policy. There were WP:SYNTH violations all over the article. Look again at the article on which you lavished praise. It has about ten citations to MINTPRESS NEWS, a completely bullshit source. The only reason that you are defending this bullshit is because you want to further Bernie Sander's Presidential Campaign. Stop lying, stop dissembling, stop defecting. Stop engaging in partisan politics. Be honest for two seconds. — goethean

What about that part regarding self published sources where it is based on the author and not on the actual website? You removed Medium sources which are selfpublished but fall under the expert clause that dictates they are acceptable if one can prove the author is an expert in their field. Guess you forgot about that. Examine

WP:SYNNOT before pointing at SYNTH because the issue is you just deleted whole sourced sections that had a point. A valid contradict of CNN pointing at the campaign using specific data and then turning around and having used that same data is a valid point to make. That is an actual criticism that should have just been written better in an article about media bias towards the Sanders campaign that doesn't violate SYNTH because it isn't trying to make a new claim, it is pointing out a editorial contradiction based on sources. Partisan politics? From the same person calling people hacks. You've shown from day one that you aren't unbiased. If we are going to call a spade and spade, it is pretty obvious you don't like the Sanders campaign and due to your bias against Sanders I'd expect you were a Clinton supporter who thought he cost her the election somehow and think his campaign is just making this stuff up, so no matter what you'll never accept any of this to be possibly true. Or just another neoliberal. Letalone that there are currently 54 citations in the article and you don't have a valid point against any of them. A marketing campaign doesn't create proof for the campaign, it is an attempt to manipulate the public into believing something without proof. This has actual studies and evidence for it to suggest valid allegations and controversy. I'm not furthering any campaign. I'm an economists and paralegal. I like politics and I like statistics. The primary covers both politics. One would have to be a fool to not see issues in media coverage and that media has always had an agenda.WillC 15:58, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

> Or just another neoliberal.

Wow! Are you deliberately promoting the most ridiculous stereotype of a Bernie Sanders supporter? Everyone who doesn't support Dear Leader is a neo-liberal. — goethean 15:42, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well if the shoe fits. Look at your stance so far. Making your own conspiracy theories that people are here because they are connected to the campaign, that the only reason people support is because of partisan issues (which goes both directions), that people coming here are just pro-Sanders and can't be any other reason, etc. That sounds like alot of neoliberal stances. Afterall, Sanders is left of center, most of his opponents are right of center, thus neoliberals. You've yet to give any valid reason for this to be deleted in its current state other than conspiracy theories. As I see it, you've provided ample proof of the possibility of being a neoliberal. Such hate for the topic right out of the gate. Afterall, lower down are established editors who are questioning why this is even up for deletion and have provided evidence that a strong "Anti-Sanders" crowd is making a campaign to take this page down. Sounds like neoliberal nonsense to me. Lets not forget, you were the first to question people's political allegiances. You brought that on yourself.--WillC 20:26, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Well-sourced, readable, and notable. Cleduc (talk) 18:48, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• ^This is the first edit this user makes in 6 months. It's also the first AfD discussion in more than 2 years that this user has participated in.
  talk) 03:09, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Keep It pretty much satisfies all the requirements of Wikipedia:Notability given the sources cited in the article, so I fail to see why someone nominated this for deletion. I don't think undue weight applies here, given the sheer amount of media cited sources exploring this topic. Pericles of Athens^Talk 18:54, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the article is sourced. There are multiple sources that prove that there is bias in the media.this one for exampleand this. Deletion arguments does not convince me because they are mostly

I agree that most of the arguments for deletion are based on

Media coverage of Donald Trump I would fully support it as there is a mountain of evidence to support the controversial claims. Even if it was not "proven beyond a reasonable doubt", it is still discussed by media sources, articles, books, journals, etc. Andrew Z. Colvin • Talk 19:03, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Hi Andrew, what is your relationship with Bernie Sanders' 2018 campaign for President? — goethean 19:07, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@

WP:OTHER can be a good rationale to delete or keep, right? NickCT (talk) 19:55, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

WP:OTHER is a valid argument and when it is not, The nature of Wikipedia means that you cannot make a convincing argument based solely on what other articles do or do not exist, because there is nothing stopping anyone from creating any article--SharabSalam (talk) 20:02, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

@

WP:OTHER obviously isn't the only argument here. There are others.  ;-p NickCT (talk) 12:20, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

@Goethean: That isn't relevant unless there is evidence he was commissioned to create this article. Being a fan or a supporter of any kind isn't relevant, because if it was articles wouldn't be created nor expanded on this project without that interest. The request of that information is odd coming from you and would warrant the same request of information from you.WillC 12:30, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep This article is well written, fully sourced, is about a notable subject and doesn't express an opinion, it just lists facts. Hishighness420 (talk) 19:41, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I fully support a good faith attempt at ensuring neutrality (as much as possible with controversial political topics), but I fully agree. Everything stated comes directly from a cited source—many of which are verified by multiple sources.Andrew Z. Colvin • Talk 21:14, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• ^This is the first edit made by this user in nearly ten months. The editor has made less than a dozen edits in the last three years.
  talk) 03:12, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Keep. The complaint fails to explain in what way this article fails to meet
  talk) 21:09, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep, without commenting on general neutrality concerns in the article, the subject pretty clearly meets GNG based on a glance at references. In particular, [1], [2], [3], [4], [5] and [6] are examples of RS giving significant coverage to this topic outside of Opinion sections. I would, however, support moving to Media coverage of Bernie Sanders, although if that's the case then the current title should be a redirect from a non-neutral title. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 22:06, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep speedy keep. Article contains ample references from credible sources. There may be some POV, but the article is clearly salvageable, and it is of a noteworthy topic. --T1980 (talk) 22:52, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Calton is spot on. Guy (help!) 23:44, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep This article is such a monstrosity and so flagrantly violates Wikipedia policy and mission, that it serves as a great example to warn people about what a disaster Wikipedia has become, and warn people away from relying on or using Wikipedia as a source for information.MarcelB612 (talk) 23:46, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@MarcelB612: - You voted Keep, but gave a rationale for Delete.....? NickCT (talk) 13:51, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've struck Marcel's vote as invalid. AfD is not a forum for polemic protests.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:38, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete or merge, echoing the concern of User:Buggie111. I have nothing against Bernie Sanders, and I am not going to dispute that this is a well-sourced article, but this seems like something better set in the 2020 and 2016 campaign sections on media coverage. I'm not denying the validity that Bernie Sanders has received disparate media coverage for the amount of votes he has received, but I hope you're all ready to patrol articles "Media bias against Donald Trump", or "Media bias for Joe Biden", "Media bias against Al Gore", etc. etc. which this article will invite to be made. This is an encyclopedia, ask yourselves how this applies to all candidates going forward as well as all of those before them. In presidential elections, state elections, other country's elections. This is opening a can of worms that would not fit in the scope of most gazettes, encyclopedias, and reference books. Although Wiki seems to be far more encompassing than others. --Simtropolitan (talk) 23:47, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Simtropolitan: The argument regarding Other is a bit hollow. Would an Al Gore page be made? That depends on the evidence. Would one for Joe Biden be made? That depends on the evidence. Would one regarding Trump? That depends on the evidence. How could those articles exist if there isn't any information to actually place inside of them? If there is information, then wouldn't that warrant an actual discussion to see if they are valid for an encyclopedia? This subject is a pretty significant discussion that continues to be held, dating all the way back to the 2016 primaries and the 2016 DNC email hack.WillC 12:39, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That really doesn't matter, they should be discussed within the appropriate articles but creating an entire series like this really seems to tick off more than a few tickboxes of

WP:SOAP. An encyclopedia is a summary of places, people, concepts. The ad nauseam this precedence will inevitably trigger will only lead to mission creep. There are plenty of other appropriate places for a full article on this, but Wikipedia does not strike me as one. And to be clear since it keeps being raised by others, I would also say Trump derangement syndrome really ought to have only a line or two in another appropriate article rather than its own.--Simtropolitan (talk) 13:28, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

@Simtropolitan: Nothing listed in the four points listed in PLOT relates to this article. It is not a "Summary-only descriptions of works.", "Lyrics databases.", "Excessive listings of unexplained statistics.", or "Exhaustive logs of software updates.". Nor does it fall in line with any of the SOAP points. It is nor does "Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment of any kind", "Opinion pieces.", "Scandal mongering, promoting things "heard through the grapevine" or gossiping.", "Self-promotion", or "Advertising, marketing or public relations." It is an article about a variety of allegations and issues related to the two presidential campaigns held by Bernie Sanders focused on media coverage. Inside said article are several instances of verified and sourced actions taken by media institutions. These events are not covered by unvetted unknown third or primary sources, but by actual mainstream reliable sources: WP, Hill, Rolling Stone, NYT, CNN, etc. Of which, we currently sit at 54 citations, most of which are obviously reliable. The issues that stem from PLOT and SOAP seems to come from individuals that have not actually read the article being presented before us. The topic is obviously controversial so depending on opinion of the topic beforehand is how individuals will see the subject-matter, which will influence how they see the article prose. Whether it is neutral or not. And above user believes it isn't neutral, but followed that up with calling the article a marketing campaign and individuals in the campaign as hacks. That suggests no matter how it is written, they don't like the topic and it will never meet NPOV in their eyes. And vice versa.WillC 18:41, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Bernie Sanders campaign for each election cycle, has articles, the election cycles themselves have articles, the DNC email hacks are reflected in an article. Media bias and corporate news coverage are all relevant and documented in articles, and this could be an example within them with proper sources. Readers can find this pertinent information and draw their own conclusions, but creating series of articles across these fronts, which will come from these greenlighted sources, just does not appear to be within the scope of an encyclopedia. That is my opinion, but moreover I feel this is well reflected in the scope of Wikipedia and what it is not. This is, by its nature an advocacy piece. I have read the article, and I stand by the fact that PLOT and SOAP absolutely apply here. This isn't about difference of opinion of the subject therein, this is about what the scope of Wikipedia's separate articles are and what this invites, which is far more patrolling and discussion for a project that is meant to serve as a reference work. Additionally questioning using outside sources to demonstrate

WP:MEAT as you have below, stands in contrast to the nature of the accusation. Of course one needs to find outside sources to demonstrate such a thing, and I think from others' posts, that has been thoroughly documented.--Simtropolitan (talk) 19:42, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

That's another article which frankly could be consolidated elsewhere. For what reason do we have to document all of this evidence as a standalone topic? Especially when it can be placed in many other existing articles. Again, evidence does not mean Wikipedia is the place for this as an essay. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a media watchdog, or journal. There is no reason that MSNBC controversies couldn't be condensed into the main article there or in respective articles where such bias took place, e.g. election articles. That is the entire crux of this- the information exists, does it warrant being in its own article? You already have my opinion. --Simtropolitan (talk) 20:42, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Which is where significance of topic comes into play. Seems to be pretty significant enough to garner such a level of discussion that has polarized sides.WillC 21:35, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep This article seems to meet Wikipedia's standards for quality. It also certainly meets any notability standards, at least for time being, given the attention demanded by US elections nowadays; however, this may have to be reconsidered at a later date after the election has concluded. I see a lot of people here making a point about the article's subject matter being a "conspiracy theory." Regardless of whether or not that's an accurate description, this should have no bearing on whether or not an article simply cataloging facts, accusations, theories, etc. should be allowed. Wikipedia has plenty of articles discussing notable conspiracy theories. MasterOfWin7 23:52, 2 December 2019 (UTC) — Preceding
  canvassed
  to this discussion.
• Keep Notable, properly sourced and earns a strong keep from me. If contributers want to increase the quality of it, work on it in good faith to make it stronger. Deleting this valuable, encyclopedic source of information lessens the value of Wikipedia — and, frankly, reeks of political agenda. Cowicide (talk) 00:18, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• ^ This is the first edit made by this user in a year.
  talk) 03:14, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Delete with sadness. I am an active Bernie supporter: t-shirt, signs, rallies, phone bank, door-to-door, the works. And I read this article hoping that at least some of it could be salvaged. I am also a long-time Wikipedian: editor,
  WP:Synthesis. Even if the content is completely accurate, and even though I agree with most of it, it doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Various sentences might be worth migrating to Media bias in the United States#Corporate bias and power bias and other related articles, but that's about it. Yes, we need to save the United States from corporate control and religious radicals, but actively violating Wikipedia's neutrality is not the way to do it. - Frankie1969 (talk) 01:26, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep - meets notability criteria based on sufficient relevant references. Soapbox/speculation is not a criterion for deletion; be bold and try adjusting these issues. ɱ (talk) 04:11, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - The article covers a very prevalent topic in the 2016 and 2020 Elections that should be open for all to see Liberaltarian12345 (talk) 01:26, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. The content of this article needs some editing and management to make it more objective but is not an irrelevant topic - the title should be modified to "Alleged Media Bias Against Bernie Sanders" to make sure it isn't one-sided, but there's enough ground here to detail the controversy without needing to resort to propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shiznitay (talk • contribs) 04:51, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Do not delete - This article contains notable information and sources not currently found in other articles. If the article is not outright kept, that information should at least be moved or merged into other articles so it is not lost.
  canvassed to this discussion. [reply
  ]
• Keep. This is the failure of what I called "aesthetics." To call out media bias itself is not propaganda because there is a clear methodology that can be applied to all media actors and to all situations. It can also be repeated on an experimental basis by different users to yield the same result. Would you say that there was a media bias against Jews in Nazi Germany? I'd say yes! That's because the way the power coalesced in Nazi,Germany and also the incentive structure where the most anti-semitic media got signal boosted by those in power. Now, if you keep doing that for a few years, what remains of the media or what is successful and/or has a big reach will be affected. Therefore, analyzing media bias itself is not propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eshaparvathi (talk • contribs) 05:35, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, although I think the crux of this argument is the discrepancy between particular public measures of popular support for the candidate and the amount of media coverage. By measures of popular support, I mean (a) the number of individual donations (a more democratic measure of electoral favorability than, say, total donation sum) to the candidate, and to a lesser extent (b) polling results. If the media coverage in fact tracked with these measures, the candidate with least support would receive the least coverage, and vice versa. Highlighting this discrepancy may improve the standing of the article. Additionally, there may be interesting trends over time because it seems that Sanders was very marketable for the media in 2016–2017 when he was not actively running for president (however I do not personally have a source for this).
  canvassed to this discussion. [reply
  ]

• Keep — A notable subject with substantial independent coverage. Like
  canvassed to this discussion. [reply
  ]

• Strong keep, but consider renaming and tidying Per reasons which have been articulated by others. This is notable, important, and well-sourced. If this was an unhinged, fringe, Alex Jones conspiracy theory with no merit and no mainstream discussion, then certainly it should be considered for deletion. However this is not the case. This is very much a mainstream debate in American politics for the past 4 years; indeed, perhaps the biggest debate over the last 4 years in the American Left/Center-Left. We might compare this article to the article on
  canvassed to this discussion. [reply
  ]

The comparison to

Israel and the apartheid analogy is quite apt in my view. Slapbox (talk) 01:52, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

• Keep — At the very most, almost all of the information presented here should be transferred to corresponding articles on the 2016 and 2020 Democratic Elections pages. However, this well-sourced and clearly substantiated article is no cause for any reasonable removal so that isn't even a necessary action to do. My only question is why isn't there articles for other candidates? These are great to link on the main 'Media bias in the United States' page too. If neutrality is an issue, then the wording should be changed to offer such fairer POV whilst maintaining factual integrity rather than scrapping the whole article. As CompactSpacez pointed out, the article should also need some more tidying. Otherwise, this is a legitimate article that should be kept.
  talk) 07:04, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Keep Others have already noted that this article meets criteria for notability and reliable sources and that soapboxing and NPOV are not grounds for deleting an article. I think the example the original argument gives towards Nazi Germany is a little too
  canvassed to this discussion. [reply
  ]
  • I believe the Nazi comment you are referring to was actually posted by a different person from the original nominator. The write of said comment, Eshaparvathi, did not use their signature and posted it in the wrong location, but it has since been moved to the proper location. Master of Time (talk) 10:27, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: "Media" bias against "Bernie Sanders" is way too vague in terms of both the subject and the actor: is it US media? All media? Independent media too? And does Bernie Sanders mean Bernie Sanders the person since he has received any and all media coverage? Technically, given the current title I could add a newspaper blurb from the 1970s and it would fit, but I don't think that's what the article was created for. Something like "US Media coverage of 2020 Bernie Sanders' presidential campaign" would be the only acceptable way to give this a neutral base to work from. It shouldn't even be mixed in with the 2016 campaign, which was a very different dynamic. Mithridates (talk) 07:46, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would strongly contest your claim that the 2016 campaign was a "very different dynamic". CompactSpacez (talk) 07:50, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - Clearly meets notability criteria. If anyone thinks there a NPOV or "Soapbox" issues, then bring it up on the talk page or be bold and fix them yourself and defend your edits as required. Wikipedia isn't meant to jump straight to deletion on a notable article simply because the nominator believes the article may have flaws. Other articles existing or not existing, and how those articles are written, is irrelevant to this one, especially in regards to deleting the whole article. The article title is fine. It's about Media Bias Against Bernie Sanders. Succinct and relevant. Macktheknifeau (talk) 08:29, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Macktheknifeau: - re "fix them yourself" - The article itself is a soapbox, and there would be no way to fix it. If I started an article called The rent is too darn high, it might be a notable subject, it might be fundamentally true, but it would still be a soapbox. NickCT (talk) 12:23, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You can make whatever articles you want. If they contain reliable sources about a notable subject. Your hypothetical is irrelevant to this article. It is neither propaganda, opinion, gossip, self-promotion or marketing and thus doesn't qualify as a "soapbox".Macktheknifeau (talk) 12:57, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Macktheknifeau: - It's clearly advocacy. NickCT (talk) 13:43, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In your opinion. All users are entitled to construct and edit pages on any topic that cites reliable sources in a manner that establishes notability. Being the political supporter of a candidate doesn't automatically invalidate their edits as long as they follow Wikipedia guidelines, and I believe this page clearly does follow them, and at worst, any specific issues should be dealt with on the talk page with a consensus found, rather than deleting the entire article. Macktheknifeau (talk) 13:57, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Macktheknifeau: - Saying "the media is biased against my candidate" is advocacy. That's not opinion. It's fact. NickCT (talk) 14:22, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is well sourced, well written, and about a notable topic. If you feel any individual editor is biased and/or ignoring Wikipedia's central tenants regarding sourcing & notability or has made a blanket statement of some kind that doesn't follow Wikipedia guidelines, you should post about it on the talk page of the topic and a consensus can be found regarding their edits. You can call whatever opinion you like a "fact", but in this particular case, your opinion is still just your opinion. Macktheknifeau (talk) 15:02, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Macktheknifeau: - You keep repeating points that I'm not challenging. It doesn't matter if a topic is notable, well-written and well sourced. Advocacy can be well-written, notable, and sourced. It's still advocacy. Still soap-boxing.

re "still just your opinion" - Let's try to break this down into simple yes/no questions. Do you agree or disagree that the statement, "the media is biased against my candidate" is an example of advocacy? NickCT (talk) 17:09, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to hijack your 1-on-1, but I spent a while reading WP:Advocacy and it seemed to me that this article would only conform to that description were it that it's giving significant undue weight unto an opinion. Meanwhile, the author maintains that they had trouble finding "no, the media isn't biased against Sanders" sources – at least such that weren't immediately contested. So, it would appear that the coverage of content is reflective enough of existing content on the subject as to not be advocacy any more than is e.g. tabulating sources who are of/against the opinion that climate change is anthropogenic, and finding that the 'for' side outweighs the 'against'. I know the comparison here is far-reaching, but I tried to find one as relatable as possible to illustrate my point. Selvydra (talk) 17:56, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Selvydra: - re "content is reflective enough of existing content" - Again, I'm not challenging that. That could be true. I'm simply trying to make a point about what is and is not appropriate as a WP article subject. I could write New England Patriots domination of American Football. It could be well sourced. Could be notable. Its coverage could be reflective of existing content. It's still advocacy. Still inappropriate. NickCT (talk) 18:18, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to know if you're aware of the article

Tom Brady and Bill Belichick era, an article which is about the Patriots dominating the NFL in the last 20 years. So congratulations I guess, you just proved my point for me. Conversation over. Macktheknifeau (talk) 03:00, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

That article would likely be a delete as well. NickCT (talk) 13:06, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - There is ample articles from reliable sources giving attention to the topic of media bias against or media blackouts of Bernie Sanders. There is objective evidence of Sanders receiving less coverage compared to candidate of similar stature. Events of less renown have been given an article on Wikipedia. There is more than sufficient cause for a page like this to exist. I am actually surprised it would be seen as controversial. I don't think a Sanders related event should be treated as a "special case" requiring "above and beyond" normal Wikipedia standards because he is a controversial figure.
  canvassed to this discussion. [reply
  ]
• Keep, per Slapbox, KeithTyler and Selvydra. The topic of this article is a notable aspect of the 2016 and 2020 election, of encyclopedic value, and well sourced enough. Minor shortcoming should be worked on instead of wasting time with this apparently PoV-based AfD. I also want to protest the pressure by anonymous editors on users voting keep. The accusation of 'canvassing' is only brought up against one side, without even providing evidence! As a WP user who had been subject to a cynical witchhunt surrounding a controversial RfA before, I'm very much against such bad faith shenanigans. If there's any doubt about the correctness of the ongoings here, votes for BOTH sides have to be checked, everything else is manipulation. Gray62 (talk) 10:13, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Decently sourced article on a matter of media controversy. We have similar articles in Category:Media bias controversies. Dimadick (talk) 11:31, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• After some more thought, either delete or move in part to Bernie Sanders 2020 presidential campaign. I just had a look over Category:Media bias controversies and the big difference here is that the scope and term is not defined. It's the type of article title that seems clear in 2020 because of the ongoing campaign, but wouldn't a number of years down the road when the campaign could easily be a distant memory. (And "media bias against Bernie Sanders" could refer to any media, in any campaign, since the 1970s). So then the next idea would be to rename it to something neutral and precise, like the "Media coverage of Bernie Sanders' 2020 presidential campaign" idea I suggested, but the more neutral you make it in that way the less reason it has to exist as a separate article because now it's just an extension of the 2020 campaign article. Then it would only need to exist if the main article is too lengthy, but that doesn't seem to be the case. And it is true that Wikipedia has kept articles about much less notable subjects like the Ted Cruz zodiac killer meme one, but that one is at least well defined. So I do think that allowing an article on something as general as the media (which country's media? All of it? Just the profit-making kind or independent media too? Doesn't say) against somebody (since birth? Since when? Is the "somebody" the thing the "media" is against or is it something in particular like a campaign?) does open the door to just about anything. Media bias against Luxembourg, media bias against dogs, you name it. Mithridates (talk) 11:52, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Blatant Brigading - I just want to point out that this page is being posted in other parts of the Internet in order to encourage pro-Bernie editors to campaign to keep this article on the site. Someone put together one hell of a Wikipedia article that details the media bias against Bernie going all the way back to his 2016 campaign. Wiki wants to delete it and is taking comments. : SandersForPresident. That's pretty disgusting and unethical. 18Things (talk) 12:47, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If non-Wikipedia editors are making new accounts specifically to make their voice heard in this debate, that is certainly unacceptable. However, making accusations against established editors, and suggesting that their opinion is less valid because they are supposedly "pro-Bernie", is a violation of

WP:GF. There is nothing forbidding supporters of a political candidate from editing articles concerning said candidate, so long as their editing is NPOV. CompactSpacez (talk) 14:40, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

"Remember to assume good faith on the part of others" Slapbox (talk) 01:54, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Wikipedia doesn't make decision by sheer weight of numbers. Why is it "disgusting" and "unethical" for the supporters of a Presidential candidate to take interest in pages relating to him on Wikipedia? I found it interesting that there is an allegation made on that reddit page that the person who made this deletion is active on an anti-sanders Reddit page that had posts about "how to make a deletion request", which would seem to indicate there is a level of bias from the person making this request, potentially making this AFD request one done in bad faith. Macktheknifeau (talk) 12:57, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's disgusting and unethical because the article has been posted to NINE separate Reddit pages with the same implication that A.) this article is being taken down in some Wikipedia-led anti-Bernie conspiracy and B.) without shame attempting to rally Wikipedia users from those pages to come here and to weigh the conversation down on the side of keeping the article. It's Canvassing cut and dry.18Things (talk) 13:16, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

He's a major candidate for the US Presidency, one of the most important political positions in the history of the planet. A controversy involving wikipedia regarding him being posted on one other website (Reddit) is hardly a surprise, and not disgusting or unethical. Macktheknifeau (talk) 14:01, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What controversy? The only controversy here is that there are numerous editors who have made few recent edits who are suddenly active and voting. If this doesn't scream canvassing then I don't know what does. — Chevvin 14:41, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Every account you've linked to is at least 2 years old, with some going back as far as 2013 & 2009, as well as at a glance, being involved in similar topic editing previously. Being a semi-regular editor, or someone who only edits on their logged in account rarely, doesn't diminish their contributions to topics & discussions as long as they are making a good faith effort to involve themselves in the discussion. Macktheknifeau (talk) 15:11, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You're completely ignoring the point. These are all old accounts who have stopped editing months, or even multiple years ago, and have suddenly decided to come back to respond to this AfD after there have been clear attempts on Reddit (and maybe other platforms) to canvas for the keeping of this article. Don't you think it's a little bit suspicious that they all suddenly came back with no relationship at all to the campaigning, votestacking, and stealth canvassing that has happened on this article? — Chevvin 15:19, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have noted all of the editors who all had inactive accounts and appeared again to join in this discussion as potentially canvassed. — Chevvin 15:57, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

ONLY by pro-Bernie editors? :-/ Anyway, a simple mention that there's a controversy at Wikipedia isn't unethical and doesn't constitute canvassing. This AfD is targetting an article about an important topic, the high rate of participation isn't that unusual, imho. Gray62 (talk) 13:02, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The article has already been posted to multiple Reddit pages asking for people to come here and tip the discussion in favor of keeping the article. Personally, I'm neutral on the topic but when people are writing things like "We really need some Wikipedia pros to keep the trolls from taking the page down. Considering the overlap in the type of people that support Wikipedia and Bernie, that shouldn't be too hard," there may be an issue. It would explain the sockpuppeting going on this particular talk page as well.18Things (talk) 13:12, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@

Chevvin: I particularly don't edit much anymore, nor do I focus on political articles. I was always interested in doing Pro wrestling articles. Would you consider me in that category because I don't show a particular interest in politics through my edits? Now after you answer that, take into account I have a BA in Political Science, a BA in Paralegal Science, a BA in International and Applied Economics, and a Masters in Applied Economics. Obviously there is an interest in politics in my mind. So, editing habits don't show interest or knowledge for a subject. Just shows that a person isn't interested in creating content for that subject. Most editors are active on subjects that are a hobby to them. Editing is also based on time. I was busy with previously mentioned that I didn't have the time to stay consistently active. While you are mentioning canvassing, I find it highly unusual that you have linked to a particular editor who has been spotlighted on an anti-Sanders reddit thread about this very topic. Perhaps there is a canvassing activity being conducted elsewhere.WillC 18:11, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

@Wrestlinglover: I would not consider you to be canvassed because you have a recent history of edits, unlike some of the accounts which haven't had a previous edit since 2013. As far as the canvassing from the anti-Bernie side, I agree that it shouldn't have been done, but as far as I can tell there aren't any blatant examples of canvassing on the delete side other than Miadtkt, who I have noted as a potential SPA. I would also greatly appreciate it if you would assume good faith and not accuse me of canvassing, which I promise you I have not. — Chevvin 18:25, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@

WP:IN-U. What we did was argue with them and show they are only there to support the topic due to that bias. Do the same here. Create an actual argument that is justified and correct per policy. Trying to discredit people just because you suspect they are here for that isn't good faith. So far, the PLOT and SOAP arguments are kind of hollow because people aren't reading the actual article.WillC 18:58, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

@Wrestlinglover: I don't find it particularly unusual for multiple people to notice that inactive accounts have suddenly become active again, and to make an assumption that that Redditor and I are the same person is a massive leap. I understand that there is canvassing on both sides, but it is hard to tell who is being canvassed and who is not. The notes I left aren't used to discredit their arguments but rather to point out that these are comments left by accounts who I suspect were canvassed. As for the the article itself, the article is certainly better at addressing the NPOV concerns than before, but still falls victim to the problem of having all of the information detailing the alleged bias against Sanders, leaving all of the criticism in its own topic at the end of the article, a practice that is widely discouraged. Overall, I agree that the topic might be notable enough for its own article, but I feel the only way to fix this article is to simply TNT and start over. — Chevvin 19:26, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I fail to see any reasonable argument for TNT at this point. I'll agree on a name change. Perhaps to Allegations of Media Bias Against Bernie Sanders Presidential Campaigns. As for the article itself, a simple peer review could change any issues it faces. Merging the criticism section into the article would be simple enough based on topic and timeline of the subjects mentioned. TNT on the otherhand, would mean just redoing the already included information. To do any worthwhile editing could only happen after an agreement regarding issues here have been put forth. So far there are statements regarding NPOV, PLOT, and SOAP but very little action towards detailing what these actually are.WillC 20:12, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Admin required?: It appears the original article has been blanked/moved by a vandal? Can an admin revert this? Macktheknifeau (talk) 12:58, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That vandal has been blocked for three months. A harsh sentence, but he knew he was doing wrong. Gray62 (talk) 16:07, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete or merge as per arguments above, in particular issues with
  WP:NPOV. SiliconRed (talk) 14:58, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep Well the article is related to upcoming US Presidential candidate and it passes
  WP:GNG. Abishe (talk) 16:23, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Delete - Will always be NPOV and a magnet for his supporters to document conspiracy theories and his detractors will do the same to undocument. Also by it's nature, it will rely on less than reliable sources. Add in the Reddit canvassing and you can see this will be a nightmare for editors and admins throughout 2020. Slywriter (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:30, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak keep or merge with the appropriate sections of his 2016 and 2020 campaign articles per comments above, as there is some reliably sourced and notable material here. Leaning more towards weak keep per JamesMLane's comments at 06:06, 2 December 2019. If article survives, I would support moving to Allegations of media bias against Bernie Sanders per
  WP:NPOV and CompactSpacez's comments at 06:35, 3 December 2019.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 16:52, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

@

WP:NPOV. In fact, a lot of the hubbub surrounding this article could probably be avoided with a slightly more neutral title like this. I find the current arguments for deleting the article altogether as specious, though, considering the massive amount of research and sheer volume of Wikipedia:Reliable sources cited in it. The article presents a clear pattern of news organizations discussing bias against Bernie in mainstream media, over a number of years and different election cycles. That certainly satisfies the requirements of Wikipedia:Notability at the least. Pericles of Athens^Talk 17:11, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

• Do not delete. There's been an enormous amount of bias against Bernie Sanders from the beginning; further more the mainstream media is controlled by six corporations & they routinely ignore candidates they don't support. This is an effective way to rig elections since candidates can't get elected without name recognition & they can't get name recognition without media coverage. some of this problem isn't related to the Sanders campaign; but this is a start.
  canvassed to this discussion. [reply
  ]
• Question/comment – Is there a reason why almost exclusively proponents of 'keep' are suspected of being canvassed? The first topics posted about this on pro-Sanders reddit pages (which were about contributing to the article itself) were largely inactive or locked by the point AfD was started, and while a topic *was* active on the anti-Sanders subreddit that took credit for flagging the article for AfD arbitration in the first place?

I am suspecting all accounts who were inactive for periods of time who came back to join the discussion, regardless of their position. The fact that most of them are in favor of keeping the article speaks to the canvassing done by pro-Bernie supporters rather than any inherent bias. — Chevvin 18:09, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is also unusual for editors to point to the same accounts being featured on reddit threads ridiculing this topic.WillC 18:14, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@

Chevvin

: – This seems like a way of generating many false positives, and disqualifying their opinions in readers' eyes (even though, as per the blurb at the top of this page, their arguments are still supposedly welcomed). Many of the flagged 'keep' proponents could be non-editing users of Wikipedia, while some 'delete' and 'merge' supporters could be members of the anti-Sanders reddit community with a history of tendentious editing activity that defends their PoV. I recognize at least one editor here by name with such a history. The community in question is known on political Reddit for having a highly active base for its size. Thus, it's hard to believe that no more than one flagged person (last time I checked) was canvassed by the anti-Sanders community. This entire AfD may have been started by the them, as they claimed to have flagged it for deletion (in since-deleted discussion).

Rather than placing a 'potential canvassee' disclaimer after every inactive editor and non-editor (an outsize retaliation to an aesthetic problem in votestacking), I would suggest simply having a general disclaimer at the top of the page, acknowledging that posts have been made in pro- and anti-Sanders communities (feeling free to stress that more of them are in pro-communities). Particularly so as this is to be evaluated on the merit of arguments and not the number of people for or against, anyway. If nothing else, the blurb at the top should be changed to something to the tune of "If you were canvassed here, stay out or risk being used to worsen the optics for your side of the argument." Selvydra (talk) 08:46, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep or merge, redirect, or rename, preserving history. There's obviously some serious neutrality problems, but there's also plenty of coverage. The solution is to fix, not delete. Benjamin (talk) 18:23, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• keep or merge with main Sanders article - I've read dozens of articles examining media bias against Sanders. Whether it is true or not is debatable, but there has been a fiery public debate about it, it's noteworthy. On second thought, Trump's people also made a big deal and carry on about
  talk) 23:40, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep. By this point, media bias against Sanders is certainly notable enough for its own page. What that page should be titled is a separate debate entirely. O.N.R. ^(talk) 00:03, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Do Not Delete or Merge from what i understand, this fits within the WP:GNG, and as someone who has edited this article, i hope to be able to make further improvements to it in the future. If this article was to be merged with Bernie Sander's main article, it would quickly become unwieldy, as he is a major presidential candidate. (0u0✿) ~MJL's Evil Sister (talk) 02:07, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - This article has been improved significantly since it was first created, however there are still several things about it that concern me. The creator of the article, Azcolvin429, posted the page to the largest Bernie Sanders supporter forum here. And it is not a coincidence that not long afterwards the article began to be brigaded by those who do not normally edit Wikipedia. Moreover, Azcolvin429 is a very ardent Bernie Sanders supporter. That in itself is not a bad thing, however there may be a potential conflict of interest present. Like Quac said earlier in this thread, Wikipedia should not be a means of promotion or soapboxing.

Source 1 - Azcolvin commented "Shocking! Mainstream media spinning a false narrative!"

Source 2 Azcolvin commented "As side note, Pete represents the gay man of the young gay rights movement—conservative, corporate, establishment, and heteronormative. I find it disgraceful that the LBGT community would support him over someone like Bernie. Period."

Source 3 Azcolvin commented "It seems like our current electorate doesn’t know what the fuck to do and who to chose. It’s clearly Bernie, but I think being overwhelmed by choice is causing these stupid shifts and trends. It’s time the losers drop out."

Source 4 Azcolvin429 admits to publishing the article on his reddit account.

None of the sources above are meant to be antagonistic, nor are they meant to suggest the editor is editing out of malicious intent. However, I do not believe this article was created in good faith and should be deleted summarily per

WP:POVNAMING. Auror Andrachome (talk) 03:32, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Do you have any evidence the article creator is part of the Bernie campaign staff? Accusing someone of being a

WP:COICAMPAIGN staffer is a serious accusation. Macktheknifeau (talk) 04:41, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Apologies. WP:Advocacy would be a better page to describe the current situation. Auror Andrachome (talk) 04:48, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Advocacy doesn't work here for the state of the current article. It doesn't include baseless claims that are not verified nor is it pushing a specific agenda. Everything listed in the article at this time has a citation by a reliable source, including the very topic of a alleged media bias. Per advocacy: "Advocacy is the use of Wikipedia to promote personal beliefs or agendas at the expense of Wikipedia's goals and core content policies, including verifiability and neutral point of view. Despite the popularity of Wikipedia, it is not a soapbox to use for editors' activism, recruitment, promotion, advertising, announcements, or other forms of advocacy." The article passes verifability. Any NPOV claims haven't been substantiated. Just referred to but not specifically pointed out in order to be addressed. This article also does not promote a belief, agenda, is activism, recruitment, promotion, announcing, or advertising anything. Perhaps at one point it may have, but in its current state advocacy does not fit this article. It is sourced and a verified topic of discussion going on in national politics.WillC 07:16, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep I was not canvassed. A dozen years, over 100,000 edits, I'm not an SPA. I was the first person after the OP to add to this article after seeing it linked to another article I watch. The section I added about
  YouTube. The long overdue article is well sourced with (currently) 54 sources. We were at 58 sources before other forces have hacked at the content. There are plenty of additional incidents and sources on this subject available. For example; when DNC Vice Chair Donna Brazile fed Clinton questions in advance of the debate
  . How would that work if CNN producers weren't in on it? I added it and saw it removed by an IP. How about the famous incident March 16, 2016, when all the major cable networks spent the better part of an hour covering an empty Trump podium. What were those networks ignoring at that time? A major speech by Bernie Sanders. CSPAN managed to cover it.

Unfortunately there are plenty of people who will find excuses that amount to

WP:I DON'T LIKE IT. Sometimes the truth hurts, but its still the truth. Wikipedia is here to present the truth. But those offended by that will fight fervently to alter reality to suit their precious feelings. That will mangle the content of the article, it already has. It will become yet another vandalism magnet. And it will cause constant attacks like this AfD. Trackinfo (talk) 08:06, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

• The general discussion here has focused on a number of policies. Some of which I don't think actually apply to the article in its current state and that needs to be addressed. Several complaints have come about due to
  WP:NEXIST
  before continuing to question.
• WP:BOLD
  enough to check thoroughly.
• WP:WHATABOUTX voices against this type of argument.WillC 09:35, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

@Wrestlinglover:, notwithstanding the strengths and weaknesses of your argument, I feel it would aid your reasoning if you inserted a number of paragraph breaks. I'm no stranger to walls of text, but they're best to avoid whenever possible. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:57, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Nosebagbear: Agreed. I hadn't planned on it being so large. I've added alterations.WillC 13:27, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep If the style needs to be cleaned up for NPOV, fine. But don't throw away editors' work because you assume this must be a biased piece. Bernie Sanders is obviously highly notable, and this page may be a useful resource for those researching his recent high-profile career. Ventifax (talk) 11:55, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I should note that I did hear about this on another site. This discussion is going to draw Bernie supporters due to being advertised on social media.
  • I don't usually get into these arguments anymore. I was very inclusionist when I was a WP editor, and it seems that WP's owner hates inclusionism, because he hopes to move as many articles as possible off onto sites that carry ads. Given that supposition, well, Jimmy, what site would this be OK on? I think you can just leave well enough alone. Ventifax (talk) 12:16, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - whatever the closing admin decides, I want to register my protest at
  the worst canvassing I've seen here at AfD since April 2010. Bearian (talk) 16:06, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

You may not like it, but Wikipedia cannot control, as much as it thinks it can, how people outside of the platform interact with a website that allows anyone to edit it. The canvass claim is nonsense and so is the policy. Part of consensus involves the inclusion of interested parties. And anyways Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. All these policies make Wikipedia an increasingly more ridiculous platform for collaboration. It's no wonder there are so few quality editors anymore—just bored wannabe-bureaucrats running amok. But I digress. Andrew Z. Colvin • Talk 16:29, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The canvass claim is nonsense," says the person with multiple pieces of evidence showing attempts at canvassing. — Chevvin 17:10, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@

WP:CANVASSING, which relates to discussions and was (to the best of my knowledge) only done by others *after* AfD was begun, likely not knowing about WP rules and just taking the "add your comments here" for granted. You can't pin any goings-on in the AfD discussion (and so the canvassing) on the author. Selvydra (talk) 18:06, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

• Delete. It gives undue weight based on the complaints of the campaign and the media aligned with his campaign. The fact that people have made a complaint isn't notable enough to me. Basically it seems to be created as a way to avoid consensus in the main Bernie Sanders page. Some people have dismissed the idea that every candidate will then have a page created about allegations about media bias, saying if they all deserve one, so be it, but I feel like they need to explain to me how this is not problematic. Every candidate will have a laundry list of complaints, just like if we allowed it, every sports team would have a laundry list of complaints. This in itself doesn't seem notable, unless we can reference something that empirically and in a non-biased way show that the allegations rise beyond a normal level. Looking at the article as it is now, it does come across mainly as "people who like Sanders are complaining" which is not enough in my opinion. It's not informative - it's to be expected. I would switch to keep if I was convinced that 1, it is OK for many other candidates to have similar pages, and 2, that this article was improved enough to focus on empirical and non biased arguments (for and against the idea of media bias) rather than laundry lists of complaints from friendly media.
  canvassed to this discussion. [reply
  ]

People making complaints is notable when the media has discussed it at great length for months. It's obviously notable by the shear number of sources that can be found discussing it. And other candidates could complain and do, but there has been little discussion in media about the issue. Notability is almost perfectly correlated with source volume. Just because you don't like the fact that there are allegations of media bias does not mean it does not exist and should not be an article. It is very clear the phenomenon should be documented and it is a duty of Wikipedia to document the truth. Andrew Z. Colvin • Talk 16:29, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@

Chevvin: Do you see anything odd about this ElAnimalSalvaje's contribution history?WillC 16:58, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

@Wrestlinglover: Yes, and I have marked them as such. Were you expecting a different response? — Chevvin 17:08, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@

Chevvin: I hadn't even thought of what you'd respond. Just wanted to point out the issue of canvassing is coming from both directions. Cause this is an obvious case of it. Less than 100 total edits and then suddenly after 5 years of no edits popping up to say this needs to be deleted. Very random.WillC 05:36, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

• Note to the closer in case you are wondering there is a Youtuber with nearly 400K subscribers who invited people to come here and vote delete.--SharabSalam (talk) 00:31, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• It would be nice to compile all instances of canvassing attempts off-site in one location just so we can try to grasp the magnitude and balance of it. →Σσς. (Sigma) 03:27, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• That guy looks like a cross between Jon Lennon and a coked up Charles Manson lost in the woods trying to pick berries out of a bee hive. He really just hurt himself on trying to do any harm to this page.WillC 05:42, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Σ: – To my knowledge (to those reading this: please add if I've missed something), the history of linking to this article is as follows: 1) The author puts up the article and invites people on Reddit to contribute sources / corrections / etc. (this is prior to any AfD). 2) An anti-Sanders community posts it on their subreddit and figured out how to flag the article for deletion. 3) Others linked the resulting AfD page to pro-Sanders pages. 4) Anti-Sanders community posts another topic regarding the AfD page. 5) Finally, this anti-Sanders Youtuber makes a video about the article and links to its talk page. Selvydra (talk) 13:24, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Selvydra: Something to that affect seems valid. This whole thing is basically a mess due to it.WillC 13:31, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of how one feels about the subject at hand, it is a bit out of bounds to suggest a living person resembles a drug addict and a mass murderer. Per

WP:BLP, it may be wise to redact that. ValarianB (talk) 13:58, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

@ValarianB: BLP deals with adding information to an article. My comment was in reference to a Youtube video/propaganda piece created by an individual encouraging people to commit vandalism here. My statement was mostly a joke, but if I have to defend it as a reasonable comment I'd say it falls in line. Afterall Lennon's music was propaganda because it contained a message to his fans/followers. Manson believed in a message from said music and got it totally wrong. He then used his own propaganda to tempt fans/followers to commit malicious acts. However extreme, it makes sense logically. Although, it was a joke at the expense of someone wanting to cause us problems and make this situation even more difficult than it already is. Not sure there is a policy that falls in line for ridiculing an actual troll.--WillC 20:43, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

BLP covers every corner of the Wikipedia project. You cannot libel a living person here, be it article space or project or discussion space. ValarianB (talk) 13:15, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Libel isn't valid in satire cases. My comment as mentioned previously was a joke from the start. So it isn't defamation or libelous. Meanwhile, BLP wouldn't cover it because it isn't defamation nor was my statement ever to be taken as fact. Seems like a weird hill for one to wish to die on.--WillC 21:59, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Selvydra: I would like to disagree with this history - for starters don't accuse @Buggie111: of being a canvasser without any evidence as you did in the second point. You are grossly underestimating the amount of canvassers who came in from the pro-Sanders side vs. the anti-Sanders side (by my counts, there have been 2 obvious anti-Sanders canvassers compared to the 10+ pro-Sanders canvassers I have tagged). To suggest that the anti-Sanders side is doing more of the canvassing like you are suggesting in your history (3/5 are about anti-Sanders canvassers while 1/5 is about pro-Sanders canvassing) is straight out misinformation. If this isn't enough, one look at the talk page and all of the SPAs commenting keep should convince you that most of the canvassing is coming from the pro-Sanders side. — Chevvin 14:54, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@

Chevvin: – All I meant to convey with 2) is that they were discussing flagging the article for deletion. Beyond that, I wasn't aware of whose actions actually started the AfD. As for the canvassees (I'm assuming that's what you meant by 'canvassers' – the people invited here, not the inviters), that's you tagging them based on a lack of history in editing. As I argued here earlier, it is a flawed metric (not saying there necessarily are better ones) that blanket-flags all non-editing or inactive users of Wikipedia as being canvassed, even if they occurred here by visiting Wikipedia and not from social media. I'm guessing more pro-Sanders people were still canvassed, but the ratio might not be nearly as steep as 5:1. Selvydra (talk) 17:22, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

• Keep. 54 sources is sufficient to make it a topic worth sustaining an article, and the fact that Sanders himself has made it a major theme of his campaign makes it natural to have an article summarizing that coverage. Our page on Sanders is already massive, so it doesn't make sense to merge this into it. --Aquillion (talk) 01:02, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• There are not 54 sources in the article. There are currently 47, and most of those are op-eds by progressives or punditry by pro-Sanders pundits. To what extent there is RS coverage, it's to cover what the Sanders campaign is saying (in the same way that every single narrative put forth by a campaign will be covered) and then to broadly examine media bias. For example, the best source in this article is the Shorenstein Center report on media coverage in the 2016 election, and it's about media coverage of all the candidates. The content that currently exists on this page is for the most part so low-quality and so padded that whatever good content exists here could easily be summarized on the Sanders main article in 3 or 4 sentences.
  talk) 03:27, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Keep - as it's well sourced that corporate controlled mainstream news media is against Sanders getting the Democratic presidential nomination, as he's a progressive. GoodDay (talk) 05:27, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep-- Passes GNG, doesn't require TNT. Concerns not justifying deletion should be handled at the article's talk page. Usedtobecool ^TALK ✨ 06:49, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Absolutely (and obviously) Keep This AfD had me meditate on- what is wikipedia? Well- it is an online encyclopedia that has articles about notable phenomena. Whether or not there is media bias against Sanders, there are a lot of claims to it in a wide variety of significant sources.... making it a notable phenomena. If nothing else, the fact that those accused have actually made formal responses proves the accusations ARE a significant (in wiki language- notable) phenomena. Sethie (talk) 07:22, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, renaming optional - there's clearly enough sourcing and content on this particular facet. Delete reasoning premised on "A complaint isn't enough for an article" are absolutely right. However, a complaint, covered by vast numbers of major and minor media sources, definitely is. I'm not sure whether UNDUE applies cross-article, but there's still enough sources to handle that. But even if it was UNDUE to be its current length, that would still be irrelevant in a deletion sense - you'd need to argue for a bad content fork, which given the length of the main Sanders article, would be unwarranted. Renaming is a possibility, but that can be handled on the article's talk page, I feel. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:57, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per Aquillion who sums up the procedural deletion issue here to my satisfaction. Editors article disagreements should resolved on the article Talk page. Jusdafax (talk) 12:00, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep But the title should be changed to "Allegations of..." ... I suspect the votes on a Media bias against Donald Trump would see a near-complete 180° from what the keep votes here are. The citations are bountiful in discussions the assertions of anti-Sanders bias, but it doesn't make it a firm fact as the current title suggests. ValarianB (talk) 13:54, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@ValarianB: I'd say a Trump bias article would look entirely different. This is more about the slant portrayal of Sanders, wanting him to look like a fringe candidate that has a select base and downplaying his chances. While a Trump article would include something similar but would be more about the media's attempt ridicule him while giving him above average or even extreme amount of coverage. Would I'd say is a bias while the other is more of a coverage issue.--WillC 20:37, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Selvydra explained it better than I could. There's no need to look for a "conspiracy" when simple economic interests explain why billionaire-owned news outlets (or those who receive large grants from billionaires and charities founded by billionaries) vehemently oppose a democratic socialist who says that billionaire should not exist. And the bias is not limited to some negative press and slightly lower volume of news coverage, as some "delete" voters seem to think: there's overwhelming evidence showing not only that coverage is scarce and predominantly negative, but that there's a persistent pattern of media outlets presenting highly misleading (if not outright false) poll data (as reported in section "July 2019" of the article). This is absolutely uncontroversial and this alone would warrant a wikipedia article. As for the article subject, it is notable, it has been widely covered by many sources for years, and satisfies all requirements. I do not believe that the article is inherently non-NPOV, poll data manipulation for instance is easily provable and indisputable. It is true that this article can attract non-NPOV, but that only means that edits and sources must be thoroughly vetted, not that the article should not exist. --Ihaveacatonmydesk (talk) 20:45, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename it "Media coverage of Bernie Sanders", or delete. The title is POV, as it suggests there is a particular media bias against Sanders, something supporters of any politician of importance can claim. If we allow this, then we have to allow "Media bias against Donald Trump and others". Deciding whether there is media bias is also extremely subjective and I see endless edit wars coming. An article named "Media coverage of Bernie Sanders" would necessarily give a more balanced picture, by also listing medias favourable to him. T8612 (talk) 20:54, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Irrelevant point.

WP:Other. Macktheknifeau (talk) 12:20, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

• Delete. This article is absolutely bonkers, and seems solely intended to lend credence to the Sanders campaign's unfounded assertions that the media is biased against him. To what extent RS are used in the article, they are completely misrepresented to support an original research POV that the media is biased against Sanders. To what extent that RS actually do cover media bias against Sanders, it's about (i) the Sanders' campaign complaints of media bias and (ii) about RS basically explaining why there is no such bias (and that Sanders receives more favorable coverage than most other candidates)[7]. This can all be briefly and concisely covered in the Sanders article.
  talk) 00:54, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• May I ask which sources would convince you that this phenomenon is notable? CNN reporting that NBC is biased and NBC reporting that CNN is biased? So far, we have the next best thing which is people who used to work for MSNBC alleging that they were under pressure to minimize the Sanders campaign. Biased sources are reliable in certain contexts. And one of those contexts is the one visible now — sources with different types of left-wing or right-wing biases all converging to the same opinion, making it much less likely to be
  WP:FRINGE. →Σσς. (Sigma) 01:58, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• I see nothing in the article about former MSNBC people saying they were pressured to minimize the Sanders campaign. Where does NBC say CNN is biased against Sanders and vice versa?
  talk) 02:12, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• It may have been removed; I didn't check. This may not be the exact source that was used, but Krystal Ball, formerly at MSNBC, has been very clear about it on her show at The Hill. (Shockingly enough, the WP article reiterates some of the points she makes.)

CNN reporting that NBC is biased and NBC reporting that CNN is biased? That was a joke, because the odds of that ever happening are less than zero. Hence, the next best thing: a former MSNBC reporter testifying to being pressured to minimise the Sanders campaign. →Σσς. (Sigma) 05:24, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to watch a 7 minute video to maybe hear a pro-Sanders pundit say that the media is biased against her favorite candidate.

talk) 05:42, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Okay, Snoogans. 👍 →Σσς. (Sigma) 07:52, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pulling a "too long didn't read" meme when someone presents a citation to back up their assertion is not a good look for you, I must say. ValarianB (talk) 13:19, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please point out where in the video "people who used to work for MSNBC alleging that they were under pressure to minimize the Sanders campaign".

talk) 15:13, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

First, I find it hilarious to be honoured by the unattributed quotation above. Second, you don't have to look at the video. If Ball and Schultz had made reports about the bias while they still worked at NBC, they would be hailed as respected journalists informing the public. But of course, they were a few days late which makes them pundits spewing conspiracy theories. /s Connor Behan (talk) 19:55, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ball and Schultz are not reporters. Just as Rachel Maddow, Chris Hayes and other pundits who work for MSNBC are not reporters. If this editor is unable to distinguish punditry from news reporting, then the close of this AfD should judge this editor's vote accordingly.

talk) 20:21, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

You keep using the word punditry but you must have forgotten the definition: "the expression of expertise in a particular subject or field." Now, tell me where in

WP:RS, sources by pundits are unreliable. Cause I just read it and as below, it doesn't say they are.--WillC 20:39, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Is your argument now that people who appear on TV must be recognized experts?

talk) 20:40, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Are you now saying they aren't? You've been using that term to describe them this entire time. Are you now saying they aren't pundits? Let me guess, you thought the term meant something else.--WillC 21:40, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A pundit isn't necessarily an expert. Milo Yiannopoulos and Alex Jones are not experts on the stuff they talk about just because they get invited onto platforms to give their opinion.

talk) 21:44, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

I'm not saying that Ball and Schultz are reliable in this context due to some research or scholarship about campaign coverage. It's because they worked at MSNBC and had access to internal discussions. Connor Behan (talk) 22:04, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No that is literally the definition of punditry, an expert. Milo and Jones can't be pundits if they aren't experts. So the problem here isn't the definition, the problem here is you are using the word wrong. You've been trying to call people pundits as a means of classifying them as unreliable when in fact you've been making an argument they are experts and thus are reliable. Or funnily, you've been arguing because they are experts they aren't reliable. You've yet to list a policy that makes them unreliable other than your desire for them to be unreliable.--WillC 22:12, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per CompactSpacez - this article has issues and needs cleanup to comply with NPOV. I'm not against
  WP:DEL#REASON details fourteen valid reasons to pursue deletion, and needing work is not one of them.  Vanilla  Wizard  💙 05:37, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Comment There is currently some IMO broad content removal going on in the article that some may wish to review. Either to see if it is warranted (edit summaries of "what an awful article this is", "remove common dreams, a crackpot site" are a bit worrisome) or for some of the deletion voters to see if the article has become more palatable, if these changes stand. ValarianB (talk) 15:06, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Since I'm not a currently active Wikipedian, and my strong feelings about the current primary may bias my remarks, I am not !voting. However, I do have a related meta issue. The Wikipedia largely depends on so-called "non-biased" sources which happen to be largely media run by corporate interests, implying a bias in favor of what is best for corporations and those who profit from them. So, if we expect that entities with this "corporate bias" to report on their own bias against political candidates who are actively confronting corporate interests, we may be running a fool's errand. This should explain a necessity to actually approach this as a presentation of biased sources, for and against the claim, as long as the sources are backing up their claims with verifiable data. I'll leave whether the claim, depending on such sources, is notable to other !voters.
  Talk • Work 15:16, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Merge into
  WP:UNDUE. "For a politician to complain about the press is like a ship's captain complaining about the sea." Andrew🐉(talk) 15:42, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Delete or Change Title to Allegations of media bias against Bernie Sanders. Title is obvious NPOV and many of the references including whole subheadings devoted to self-proclaimed left wing publications and their take on these allegations. Either way article needs more balance.18Things (talk) 16:00, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Media bias against Sanders is a notable topic that has been discussed in reliable sources such as Critical Perspectives on Media Bias (Jennifer Peterson, ed., 2017). Bias incidentally is not necessarily wrong. Every publication must present the news from one perspective or another. Choosing to show an empty stage awaiting Trump's appearance instead of a stage where Sanders was speaking is bias, but so would be showing Sanders speaking instead of the empty Trump stage. TFD (talk) 19:22, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• The claims made in this edit are deceptive: (1) This is not an academic book by an academic publisher, (2) Per the index, Sanders is mentioned twice in the whole book: once where it notes that Cruz, Rubio, Clinton and Sanders all combined received less coverage than Trump during a certain period, and an attributed claim to a comedian who works for Russian state propaganda claiming that Sanders won the first Democratic debate in 2016. So, to conclude, to what extent this book substantiates that "Media bias against Sanders is a notable topic", there should be similar articles for Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio and Hillary Clinton.
  talk) 03:36, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Do you think you can disagree with me without posting a personal attack? There is no requirement that reliable sources be academic textbooks. You should know that because almost all the sources you use are news reports and columns. Your next claim is also baseless. If no similar articles have been written about other candidates, the solution is not necessarily to delete this one. Why don't you create an article about media bias against Hillary Clinton? TFD (talk) 13:07, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "Why don't you create an article about media bias against Hillary Clinton?" I have already explained why this kind of content does not deserve standalone articles. I'd vote the same in a AfD discussion on "Media bias against Clinton/Trump/Rubio/Cruz", but I'm incredibly doubtful that the majority of "Keep" votes in this thread (excluding the blatantly canvassed votes) would stick to the principles that they express here and vote the same way in hypothetical AfD discussions for other politicians.
  talk) 16:26, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Keep but change title per Four Deuces' comment above. I think Allegations of media bias against Bernie Sanders sounds like a more neutral title, and disclaimer: that's coming from a Sanders supporter. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 21:45, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge - My oh my this may be a record for most names I've never seen before at AfD. For a topic like this to be set apart from the various other dimensions of the campaign(s), from the more general topic of media bias in the US, and from media bias against various other candidates, what I would be looking for is scholarly coverage of the subject. The closest I see is a single source to conference proceedings, and the rest are news stories. Yes, if we really want to we can find a truckload of sources about any particular dimension or opinion about any of the big campaigns. There needs to be a reason to put it in a separate article, though, and a massive pile of op-eds, news stories, etc. doesn't cut it. It's a coatrack, the title is POV, and we have many other places where we could cover this. That so many of the !votes are taking the form of "but it's true!" is telling of a canvassing mess. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 22:18, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment This deletion discussion is probably being
  meat puppeted like crazy. A subreddit's moderator linked directly to the discussion (effectively encouraging others to participate), and it was brought up on Twitter. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 22:36, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• The fact that Bernie Sanders supporters see this article as a great overview of media bias against Sanders (even though RS do not at all support the notion that there is media bias against Sanders) and are sending people in droves to defend it is indicative of what a horrible article this is. Imagine if this article actually reflected what RS say, which is that Sanders has generally received the most positive coverage of any candidate and that the amount of coverage he's received is generally consistent with how he's polling, then these same people would call for the article to be deleted. This whole article is just a thinly veiled campaign ad.
  talk) 22:45, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• A RS was presented to you to show an actual bias along with all of the sources present in the article and you rejected them because you basically said you were above looking at them. Lets not forget, this discussion is also being featured in Anti-Sanders circles having the same issues.--WillC 02:53, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Are you referring to a 7 minute YouTube video where a pro-Sanders pundit gave her opinion that the media wasn't portraying her favorite candidate like she would want them to?
  talk) 03:00, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Snooganssnoogans, reliable sources support the fact that there is media bias against Sanders and media sources have defended their bias. I think you are hurting your side by denying bias instead of presenting their reasons for it: Sanders and his policies present a threat to the U.S. in your opinion and the role of the media and Wikipedia editors is to prevent him from becoming president. TFD (talk) 03:38, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• The closer of this AfD should judge the vote by this editor by the mind-set that they demonstrate: "Sanders and his policies present a threat to the U.S. in your opinion and the role of the media and Wikipedia editors is to prevent him from becoming president."
  talk) 03:50, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• The Hill is a reliable source along with Krystal Ball. A source can be bias in this instance and still be RS. Infact, the policy even says that is the best source for this type of situation.--WillC 04:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• News articles published by the Hill are RS. Op-eds and punditry on the Hill are not RS.
  talk) 04:42, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• WP:PARTISAN: "Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. Although a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context." Now you were saying about them not being RS? Cause it seems RS says you are wrong and they are perfectly fine for this exact type of article.--WillC 13:09, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• The closer of this AfD should judge this editor's vote on the basis that this user is incapable of distinguishing op-eds from news reporting (it's clearly relevant given that the article under consideration for deletion is primarily based around op-eds).
  talk) 21:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Sigh, if you are going to comment at least read the RS policies because NEWSORG directly mentions opinion pieces and it is saying they are reliable. Hence why I directly mentioned the part about opinion content. You are just grasping for straws now. You haven't been able to nullify the RS of these sources and have been using words in arguments that you didn't even know what the words meant.--WillC 22:16, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge/delete. With such a volume of media coverage, an article for every candidate could be created alleging similar claims for everyone, it’s endless and unhelpful. Take the few scholarly bits that actually show how the media cover a candidate back to the parent article’s and get rid of the rest as violating WP:Undue/ WP:NPOV. Gleeanon409 (talk) 09:04, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep and retitle. Wow. I don't envy the closer on this one. Let me make it a little harder. (1) I view this as a
  significant coverage
  . Here's a sample of the sourcing: