Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/West Germany national football team

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was STRONG no consensus (there's so many "strong" inputs here I couldn't help but do it myself). AKRadecki 01:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

West Germany national football team

West Germany national football team (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log
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POV-fork [1] from August 2006 by

   O       13:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

Update for clarification: Since 1908 to present, the
   O       19:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
No offence, but your statement above is hugely ambiguous. Perhaps you might want to rewrite it and use shorter sentences? On one hand, I get the feeling there existed two teams, yet on the other, I have this understanding that they could be identical. Although what I see now here is they were never identical. After all, do you mean that the West German team and East German team played together, each replacing the other in international competitions? - le petit vagabond 22:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is very, very simple:
   O       23:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
  • 'Keep' While I have some sympathy with the nominator's views, while not necessarily agreeing with them, this does not belong in AfD. AfD is not a place to resolve these kinds of disputes. -- Mattinbgn/ talk 21:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC) Delete Convinced by arguments provided below. -- Mattinbgn/ talk 00:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Inadvertent deletion of Mattinbgn's comment by Matthead restored. --Dhartung | Talk 21:42, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The dispute had been resolved as there had been consensus months ago on the talk page to merge the 1950-1990 history of the team from the separate article into the the proper one, but some individuals keep separating it. Rather than renaming the separate article "Germany national football team from 1950 to 1990", which would accurately indicate both the content and the lack of need for a separate article, I filed this AfD to keep this zombie from being resurrected over and over again.-- 
   O       22:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Sorry, but you have to vote Delete according to your own statement. Germany never played against West Germany, this was and is impossible as they were and are identical. The historical separate teams, East Germany and Saarland, have and keep their own articles of course (and only with these it adds to 3 states, but not 4). You also misunderstood the analogy. There are no two separate articles on the US national team, one before Texas joined the US, and one after. Same about the navy, there was a Confederate one, but not two different US navies before and after civil or any other war.-- 
   O       22:05, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
As I understand,
   O       00:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
I sense a lot of
WP:POINT from you here, using this to execute some sort of agenda that needs to be taken elsewhere. -- Phoenix2 (talk, review) 01:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
See talk page. -- 
   O       04:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
'Comment: The article on the German team, which lost in 1974 to the East German team, already refers to the East German team and its article, as well as to the Saarland team that had an even shorter lifespan than the East German one. Why to you vote to keep a fourth article that deals with a part of the 99 year long history of the German team? -- 
   O       18:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
I might not be the most polite person, but I tried to give you and others a hint as some of the statements made here deny historical facts. Insisting on these "opinions" is embarrassing to the authors and can be regarded as offensive to Germans and Germany. It would be wise to read up the basic facts and adjust at least the obvious errors in the statements, if not the vote itself. -- 
   O       17:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Read the intro to
   O       19:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
I find your arguments a bit simplified - few other countries have been divided. As you will have gathered by now, I don't share your opinion and that's something you'll have to accept. End of discussion for my part. JdeJ 20:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment This is factually wrong. Please note that the country never started in any tournament as West Germany (it was only translated so because people found it easier to distinguish than FRG and GDR). The West Germany article exists mainly because the Germany article starts at 100 BCE and would be way too long otherwise. The very first sentence makes clear that West Germany was an informal name given to what was and still is the FRG. Btw, we also have separate articles for the German Empire, Weimar Republic and Nazi Germany. All of them were represented by the DFB and all of them had different territories. So far nobody has proposed scratching from the main article and create a new one for every one of their national teams. Malc82 19:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as the governing bodies of the sport consider "West Germany" and the current German team as the same entity, and with the fact the teams were / are organised by the same organistion, it's all pretty conclusive that they should be considered as one IMO. FredOrAlive 00:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom and that the governing bodies of football/soccer consider this to be the same as the current German team, also explained above numerous times. The team had different names at different times, but don't require separate articles. Flyguy649talkcontribs 01:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and redirect or merge and redirect. I suppose the decision to recommend keeping or deleting in this instance depends on whether one takes a purely political (though not necessarily POV) perspective or the perspective of the history of the sports team. A single "German" political system did not exist in the period 1908-present. There was the Deutsches Reich (1871-1933), inclusive of the Weimar Republic, the Dritte Reich (1933-1945), the DDR (1949-1990), and the BRD (1949-present). A political perspective might suggest that we need individual articles for each period. However, the fact is that the German national football team has been essentially one and the same for the entirety of this period. The establishment of a separate team for the DDR can be viewed as a split resulting from political conditions. -- Black Falcon (Talk) 06:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have modified my initial recommendation from a simple "delete" to "delete and redirect"/"merge and redirect". As noted by Oldelpaso below, a redirect should of course exist. Whether a merge is worth doing is a different matter (it seems that most of the information in this article is duplicated almost verbatim in the other article). -- Black Falcon (Talk) 18:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. ChrisTheDude 08:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both the West German and German national teams represented the Federal Republic of Germany and were administered by the Deutscher Fußball-Bund, and authorities such as FIFA regard the "German" side as the formal continuation of the "West German" side. Caps for players whether for West Germany or Germany are considered to be for the same team, so there should just be one article. Qwghlm 09:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge and redirect. Certainly not outright deletion, its linked from hundreds of pages. Adding references for some of this history to Germany national football team wouldn't go amiss. Oldelpaso 09:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: the large number of articles that link to the hypothetical separate West Germany team illustrates the damage that is currently done to Wikipedia by the fork of content. A redirect will lead to the proper article where it is explained that the German team was also called West German in times when additional ones existed temporarily only due to external military and political pressure. As soon as external influence vanished, these states and teams joined (the proper) Germany. The East German team for example had became as unpopular in its own state as the ruling communist politicians there. Anyway, an awful lot of articles might still contain statements that need to be fixed. The first step to clean the mess is to merge and delete this bogus article here, and to write-protect the redirect to the proper article.-- 
   O       10:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
My point was that a redirect needs to remain. Also, "Merge and delete" is not a valid option for GFDL reasons. Oldelpaso 12:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete per nom and redirect. The DFB team represented "
    New Länder") the DFB-team could also nominate players from the new länders. But there never existed a separate "West German Team".--BSI 10:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Comment: it seems to me that this issue is not about whether there was or wasn't a seperate West German football team - instead it seems to be concentrating on the question "what is Germany?" Does the Federal Republic between 1949 and 1990 qualify as a seperate country from the Federal Republic as it exists today? So I'll ask these questions:
What was the capital of the Federal Republic of Germany between 1949 and 1990?
Is the same city the capital today?
How many individual states made up the Federal Republic of Germany between 1949 and 1990?
Reply None of these is relevant for the football team article and none of it constitutes a new country. Malc82 14:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why did the international community not use GER as the country code for the Federal Republic between 1949 and 1990? (If the answer given here is "to avoid confusion with the GDR", I counter with "why not assign "DDR" to East Germany and "GER" to West Germany, given that "ESP" is the code for Spain?)
Reply Maybe it was because both parts had Germany (GER) as part of their name and the "international community" didn't want to offend one side? Malc82 14:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There also seems to be a lot made of different eras in German history, and that there should be different articles for each. This is countered by the argument that in all those eras (German Empire, Weimar Republic, Third Reich), Germany was a single entity, with one government and one nation representing the whole German people. Between 1949 and 1990 this was not the case - there were two governments, each claiming to be the true heir to those that came before. Many people here are stating things in terms of "the Federal Republic is the one true Germany and always was". To me this seems like
WP:POV, and should be discouraged when attempting to write what is merely a piece of historical fact. I am prepared to accept the consensus of this, but please don't let it be driven by factors other than this article's relevance in the wider context Hammersfan
30/05/07, 11.57 BST
Instead of asking questions like this you should look up and stick to facts. The Federal Republic exists since 1949. The DFB (in its current form) exists since 1949 (reestablished after WW2). The GDR dissolved and joined the FRG in 1990. The DFB didn't dissolve, reestablish or anything like that, it simply included east german players from then on.
And of course Berlin wasn't the capital of the FRG from 1949-1990 because part of Berlin belonged to the GDR (and it would be kind of odd to have a capital which is surround by another state). But that doesn't change anything about the Germany National Football team, since the DFB is headquartered in Frankfurt/Main.--BSI 12:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Basically, what Hammersfan is doing is pushing his political POV, which is largely OR. If the pre-reunifaction FRG should be treated as a separate entity is completely besides the point, because
Wikipedia is not the place for original research
.
The question of how much continuity there is in German history (and that of many other countries) is a very difficult and largely philosophical one, which may be the reason that every reliable source avoids it by treating national teams as ongoing entity, regardless of political change. Malc82 14:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Excuse me, but where do you conclude I have a "political agenda"? The question of continuity is not a "philosophical question", it is a historical one. It seems to me that the people voicing the strongest objections here are people with a somewhat coloured view. And I object to having what I have done here classed as "original research". Hammersfan 30/05/07, 21.25 BST
Reply So please name reliable sources stating that the DFB team of the re-unified Germany has to be treated as a separate entity. By political agenda I meant that the question put forward is political/historical and not specific to the football association or team. If the geographical articles treat West Germany as only a temporary "synonym" of the FRG, there's no need to discuss it in this context. Sorry if the phrase was a bit too offensive. Malc82 21:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
Federal Republic of Germany is based since 1949 on the same Constitution and that the five states of the former GDR decided to accede the geographical scope of the Basic Law. There was no rise of a new state in 1990, just the one existing state became wider and the other one vanished. --Mghamburg 22:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
]

Delete - it is soo simple. The Germany national football team is just called national football team. But in fact never a national football team existed besides a squad selected by the DFB. The whole article tells the continuous history of the DFBs selection and not of a team under the responsibility of the government of the Federal Republic of Germany. By an accurate understanding of history the renaming of the article would be appropriate - but that is not a solution I would suggest concerning simplicity. --Mghamburg 22:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Exactly. There is no
   O       19:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Comment. If you claim that there need to be two article for two different teams, so provide citation if you can. The creator of this separate article had never provided any sources, either. Wikipedia is no place to promote Original Research or unsourced POV, that's why this article needs to disappear. Besides, if you want to Keep and rename this article - please state to what. -- 
   O       19:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply
]
Comment I say take the national bit out of the name, as it clearly wasn't that national if naming it West Germany! Next I like to point out, all the history is on UEFA.com if you look hard enough. Govvy 21:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I know this is a long debate but you should still read all of the above. It has been pointed out before that the country has never started as West Germany. It always started as FRG, nwhich it still does. Btw, "Provide Citation" usually means that you look hard enough and present your evidence. Malc82 21:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Try reversing your stick. Govvy 17:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Sadly, History can be written by anyway, you have books written by German's who says West Germany national team is just Germany, then you have books written by sources outside of Germany, which name the period of post WW2 to the fall of the Berlin wall. They name the team West Germany. It's all depended on who is the person and perspective, you can't have different variation citation from sources which contradict each other. You can either have one or the other, if you look at document history and decide to choose what you want. Then it's going to be a tough choice, the magazine I have right in front of my made by UEFA clearly have the team of 1990 labelled as West Germany. The DFB is the organisation that runs the Germany National team and on their website there doesn't seem to be any references of "West Germany" however if you go on UEFA site you can type in West Germany and get results, old teams sheets, stats from that period, you can have total stats for the whole period or you can consider West Germany a period with the most accomplishment. It's not about true citation to begin with, it's about which convention you wish to have citation for, UEFA's or DFB. I myself would choose UEFA over DFB because UEFA is the ruling body. Govvy 23:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment For the final time now: the team that is usually (colloquially) translated to "West Germany" always started as FRG. Of course the 1990 team isn't called just Germany, because the GDR also had a team in the tournament. Read the official UEFA statistics and you will find that their position on this matter is very clear. Before writing anything else: Read what has already been discussed here! You still fail to provide any reliable sources who handle the West German teams separately. If this isn't commonly done this whole discussion is moot. Malc82 09:29, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • STRONG DELETE: The name "West Germany" is only the informal one. The team is the national team of Germany, a state that is represented by the
    Deutscher Fußball-Verband - the football association of the GDR - was foundet in 1950/1958 and decased in 1990. The DFV and the national team of the GDR need their own articles for the time of 1949 till 1990, the DFB and the national team of the FRG don't need own articles for this time span. (Before you ask, I was born in the GDR and live in the FRG now.) --32X 10:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Delete. As noted variously above, soccer authorities do not distinguish between a "West German" and a "German" team. That's because they are, as also explained above, the same team from the same nation, the Federal Republic of Germany, which East Germany joined in 1990. Sandstein 13:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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