Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 March 24

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Rename Timrollpickering (Talk) 11:46, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose renaming Category:Theatre award footer templates to Category:Theatre award templates

Nominator's rationale: expand the small (six templates in total) category to allow inclusion of Category:Drama Desk Award templates, Category:Helpmann Awards templates, Category:Helpmann Awards templates, etc as subcategories. —⁠andrybak (talk) 23:10, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Merge Timrollpickering (Talk) 11:46, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose merging Category:Current Honkbal Hoofdklasse team rosters templates to Category:Softball navigational boxes

Nominator's rationale: A category for a single team, that has a single template. —⁠andrybak (talk) 22:47, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Merge Timrollpickering (Talk) 11:47, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose merging Category:Clock templates to Category:Time, date, and time zone user templates

Nominator's rationale: All of these templates are used on user and user talk pages. Merge the smaller, newer category into the older, bigger category. —⁠andrybak (talk) 22:27, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: keep (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 07:59, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose deleting Category:Hellboy films (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  

Nominator's rationale: Seems like a bit of a

WP:SMALLCAT, and a bit redundant given that there's already a relevant navbox. DonIago (talk) 20:22, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

• With six articles and a redirect at the current time, keep. The nominator may be unfamiliar with
  WP:CLT.– Fayenatic London 08:04, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• keep per Fayenatic london's argument. Decently-sized category. Dimadick (talk) 20:11, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: no consensus. The claims that WP:Naming conventions (music) is conclusive on this matter were rebutted by the proposer, and in any case CFD is a valid forum in which naming conventions can be revised. However, other opposers – while acknowledging the merits of the proposal – were simply not persuaded that the change is necessary, as in their context at least some of the current names are not ambiguous.

As for the speedy criteria

WP:C2C/C2D, these have no application to cases that are in any way controversial. They are also not conclusive in requiring parent categories to match sub-cats in all circumstances; see e.g. the very germane precedent for suites (CFD 2019 Nov 7

).

It is not clear why

WP:NCM.) Nevertheless it is clear that no changes should happen on the authority of the discussion below. – Fayenatic London 21:13, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

Propose renaming 1,342 categories. These categories plus their subcats:

• Category:Compositions by composer to Category:Musical compositions by composer
• Category:Compositions by women composers to Category:Musical compositions by women composers
• Category:Compositions by year to Category:Musical compositions by year
• Category:Compositions by decade to Category:Musical compositions by decade
• Category:Compositions by century to Category:Musical compositions by century
• Category:Compositions by country of setting to Category:Musical compositions by country of setting
• Category:Compositions by genre to Category:Musical compositions by genre
• Category:Lists of compositions by composer to Category:Lists of musical compositions by composer

... plus subcats of each, giving a total of 1,342 categories to rename. The full list of renamings is at WT:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 March 24#Musical#compositions.

Nominator's rationale to resolve ambiguity, and match the parent Category:Musical compositions and the head article Musical composition.

The term "Compositions" is highly ambiguous: see the disambiguation page Composition, which has 9 entries under "Arts", out of a total of 26 entries.

Note that I have not included some subcats of Category:Musical compositions where the "musical" context is arguably inferred from the name, e.g. Category:Compositions by instrumentation+subcat, Category:Compositions by key+subcats, Category:Classical compositions + subcats. If there is consensus to rename the categories which are included in this nomination, then those edge cases can be considered in separate followup nominations.

Note that this seems to me to meet

WP:C2D, since it is to match the head article Musical composition. If you support speedy renaming, please mention that in your !vote. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:46, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

• Note to closing admin if these categories are renamed, then two category header templates will need to be modified: Template:Year musical compositions category header and Template:Decade musical compositions category header. If you ping me, I will be happy to do the changes. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:49, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• WikiProject Classical music has been notified[1]. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:26, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Musical compositions survey start

• Support - I too think this meets
  Oculi (talk) 21:32, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Oppose - As long as we say "Composer", and not "Musical composer", the default meaning of "composition" seems to be "composition of music". Also: "musical composition" could be misunderstood as the composition of (Broadway) musicals. I'd prefer to avoid that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:53, 24 March 2020 (UTC) - Adding: In the first type, "by composer", the addition of "musical" seems particularly redundant. We have such categories only for composers of some notability, who will be known as creating music. We don't have to clarify what kind of compositions Bach and Mozart created. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:58, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Gerda Arendt, unfortunately, you seem to have not examined the list of categories, at WT:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 March 24#Musical#compositions:
    • Only five categories used the word "composer". 1,341 use the word "composition". Whatever the primary meaning of "composer", that question is irrelevant here, because this is not a proposal to rename "composer" to "musical composer".
    • There are 389 chronology categories which give no indication of music, e.g. Category:19th-century compositions, or Category:1957 compositions.
    • Reliance on Bach and Mozart to prove your case is an extreme exercise in cherrypicking.
      there are 936 subcats of Category:Compositions by composer. Very few of them are household names like Bach or Mozart, so most of the names will be meaningless to most readers. A title such as Category:Compositions by Michel van der Aa gives zero clue to vast majority of readers, who will never have heard of Michel van der Aa..

  If you want to argue that the default meaning of 'composition' seems to be 'composition of music', them

  WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. But the existing consensus is that musical composition

  is not the primary topic for "composition".

  As I made this nomination, I thought that that if anyone was going to oppose this renaming, it would be Gerda . It seems to me that as someone immersed in musical topics, you have overlooked the fact that Wikipedia is written for a general readership, for whom classical music is a minority interest. General readers don't start with the assumptions or knowledge of a skilled topic expert like Gerda. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:31, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I haven't examined the list, and will not, because I have no extra time. I read in Musical composition, "Musical composition, music composition, or simply composition ...". I have written hundreds of articles on compositions, and never felt that "is a composition" needed an adjective to clarify. My 2ct: not needed in categories either. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:49, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Gerda Arendt, your point about writing articles is not relevant, because in the text of an article the musical context is clear. A similar situation exists with many many terms, where the qualifying adjective can be omitted when it is clear from the context. Category titles may be seen in any context, where the musical meaning is not self-evident, which is why category title follow article names.

  I trust that the closer will draw their own conclusions about how much weight to attach the objections of someone who won't even look at the list of nominated categories. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:02, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I said what I wanted about needless redundancy, returning only to mention that you seem to have overlooked Category:Compositions by key, another one implying "musical", or are there compositions in keys that are not musical? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:47, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  No, Gerda Arendt, I did not overlook it.

  You noted above that you had not read the list of nominated pages. Now it seems that you didn't even read the nomination, where I wrote: Note that I have not included some subcats of Category:Musical compositions where the "musical" context is arguably inferred from the name, e.g. Category:Compositions by instrumentation+subcat, Category:Compositions by key+subcats, Category:Classical compositions + subcats.

  Which part of that is unclear to you? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:55, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I admit that my little brain could not imagine to treat these categories incosistently, on top of cluttered. - I was trained on "never change a working system", DYK? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:03, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Gerda, 1342 ambiguous titles is not "a working system". And adding a mere 8 characters to a category titles is not "clutter". The category title "1640 musical compositions" is still only 24 characters long, which is a long way from verbosity.

  As to "inconsistently", you should already be aware that the parent of all these categories is

  WP:IDONTLIKEIT rather than in policy or in logic. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:56, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  What I don't like is wasting time, and I wonder for whose sake all this is. My little brain tells me that once the mother category is "Musical compositions", all below don't need to repeat that "musical". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:21, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Gerda, the only waste of time here is the efforts by you and Francis to disrupt the discussion with FUD — in your case without reading either the nomination or the list of nominated categories.

  The nominated categories are not always seen in the context of a "mother category" whose name includes the phrase "musical compositions". The category name needs to be clear when read alone.--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

  "to disrupt"? - "composition" is clear to me, and tell me who will not first think of music (song, rock, symphony, ...) when seeing "composition"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:43, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Gerda, for what feels like the 5 millionth time;

  1. The answer to that is in the fast that composition is a dab page, as explained in the nomination which you didn't read. Musical composition is NOT the primary topic of "composition".
  2. You still fail to distinguish between your own responses as someone immersed in classical music, and our general readership which isn't.

  The disruption is in your repetition of canards. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:26, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Tagging. The categories are now all tagged. To verify, use this Petscan query. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:54, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Even when writing prose I find myself often resorting to "musical composition" because without the modifier "composition" is ambiguous. - kosboot (talk) 23:37, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Little Women and the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" were both composed in the 19th century, so one would expect Category:19th-century compositions to apply to both of them. Since the category is meant to apply only to music and not just anything that could be composed, it ought to have a name that demonstrates its scope. Nyttend (talk) 00:03, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support, per key article name and to reduce ambiguity. The situation is not totally analogous to "Composer", which automatically implies musical composer - several other meanings of the word composition use "compositor" or do not have an equivalent noun form. Poems and essays are compositions, as (more trivially in the case of this category) are some chemicals, equations, and legal documents. Grutness...wha? 04:36, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Re. "... not totally analogous to "Composer", which automatically implies musical composer" – from that perspective at least:

  • Category:Musical compositions by composer
  • Category:Musical compositions by women composers
  • Category:Lists of musical compositions by composer

  don't make any sense at all: if "composer" implies "... of music" then specifying the kind of compositions they make as "musical" is redundant cruft. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:20, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  And yet we've quite happily got both Category:Visual arts and Category:Artists, something which was formalised quite recently, and which is entirely analogous to the current debate. What's more, there are (musical) composers who also write poems - should their poetry also go into Category:Compositions by composer, which is implied by the current name? Grutness...wha? 02:57, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose – clear enough
  WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Also, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music) has a category example that says "compositions ..." and not "musical compositions ..." (meaning: that guideline is not going to change if there's no preliminary notification on its talk page that a change is being discussed somewhere else – and the current proposal above is against the current guidance, and would from that perspective also be unacceptable). --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:13, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
  ]

In short:

• Category:Musical compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach does not conform to current guidance; also just on sight, it is redundant clutter all over, not conforming to policy.
• Existing guidance on category names containing compositions by composers is not going to change: there's no consensus for it, and the whole proposal above is against current guidance, and would be overturned any time because of not conforming to guidelines.

--Francis Schonken (talk) 06:40, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Reply to
  WP:PRIMARYTOPIC
  . Please do not disrupt this consensus-forming discussions by making such demonstrably a false assertion; it would be helpful if you would demonstrate your good faith by striking it.

Your comment about Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music) is a disingenuous misrepresentation. There is no guidance there that says to use "compositions" rather than "musical compositions". The category name is mentioned in a section headed "Disambiguate by last name only?" (see WP:Naming_conventions_(music)#by_last_name_only, and its guidance is about use of full or last names; its purpose is not to guide on whether to use "compositions" or "musical compositions". Please do not misrepresent guidelines. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:21, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Wow, just soldiering on with the ill-conceived proposal instead of retracting it:

"clear enough

WP:PRIMARYTOPIC

" regards the 1,342 categories proposed for renaming here, not the parent category, which is not even under consideration in this proposal.

There's no misrepresentation: in the

WP:NCM guidance the expression "composition(s)" is mentioned 88 times, of which only four times in the "musical composition(s)" sequence, and of these four instances not one in connection with categorisation. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:43, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

• @Francis Schonken, you serial misrepesentations give me no grounds for even considering withdrawing the proposal.

WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of "1940 compositions" is not "1640 musical compositions", per the ambiguity of the word composition

.

WP:NCM does not at any point claim assert that category or article tiles should use the bare word "composition(s)" instead of "musical composition(s)". Please stop your blatantly dishonest attempts to pretend that it does. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:04, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

WP:PRIMARYTOPIC

applies to too many of the 1,342 categories proposed for renaming here, so I oppose the bloated proposal as a whole, it completely lacks the nuance needed when talking about a group of 1,342 categories

Likewise,

WP:NCM

guidance. And that's the only example of composition-related categories in article titling guidance I'm aware of. It's not much, but overthrowing it is also not something for which consensus has been found (or even sought!) at the relevant guidance talk page. So we're very far from consensus on the matter, and my original assertion, "there's no consensus for it" is absolutely correct. Or do you propose to be judge-n-jury regarding what kind of consensus your own proposal garnered thus far (or not)?

The time sink aspect of this is growing really out of all proportion, so I'd suggest again, please, please, retract your behemoth of a proposal, which, as a whole, is untenable – which, really, should have been clear to anyone on first sight, like it was to me. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:44, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Reply @
  WP:NCM
  guidance.

It is absolutely clear from that section (see WP:Naming_conventions_(music)#by_last_name_only) that it is cited as an example of why to use the full name. It does not in any way stipulate the use of "compositions" rather than "musical compositions", and merely reports the current usage of the bare word "composition". Francis's repeated misrepresentations of the guidance are no longer excusable as an error; they are blatantly dishonest, and are a continuation of his exercise in FUD, which included an effort on my talk page to bully me into withdrawing this nomination (they include coming back to harass me[2] after I had explicitly asked Francis NOT to reply[3].) It is shameful to see that this exercise is continuing here.

@

WP:CSK

it is no longer in my gift to do so. Please see what consensus emerges, and stop trying to bully me into withdrawal.

One of the key principles in category naming is consistency: that's why we have speedy criteria

WP:C2D. That's why a decision on naming should be take in respect of the set as a whole, not in respect of the few exceptionally-well-known examples which Francis repeatedly cherrypicks. There is only one JS Bach, but there over 900 subcats of Category:Compositions by composer, and we need to use a consistent naming format, not one chosen to suit the exceptional example. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:10, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

• Support per
  WP:C2D. It may be helpful to advertise this discussion on the talk page of the guideline that Francis Schonken mentions. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:34, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  WP:C2D

  is a naming relation between a category and its eponymous encyclopedia article – not between hundreds of subcategories and their parent category. Example:

  • List of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach is the eponymous article for Category:Lists of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach – so per the C2D rule that category should stay at that name and not be renamed to Category:Lists of musical compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach, while then the category name would no longer conform to the WP:C2D rule.

  --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:55, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Due to the size of this nomination, I have collapsed the larger portions of the list to east scrollability. Anyway, this is a clear support per
  C2d. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 08:51, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  As illustrated with an example above, the

  WP:C2D guidance does not support the proposal, even if the initiator misrepresented it as such in their opening statement – as a consequence I've asked the initiator if they would consider to retract their ill-advised massive proposal. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:12, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  Also, collapsed the lot: especially the subcategories illustrate the absurdity of this proposal, so, it is not these hundreds of subcategories that should be collapsed, while the (possibly less obvious) top parent categories are not. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:24, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • It was absurd [of Francis Schonken] to list the lot, disruptive even.
    Oculi (talk) 10:03, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]

    • @
      Oculi: The nomination as made was carefully formatted for clarity (see nomination as made). Sadly, the full list was copied into the main discussion by Francis Schonken, with apparent disruptive intent. I have restored[4] the nomination as made, with a clear link to the full list on the subpage. Placing the full list on a subpage is widely used at CFD for mass nominations, to stop the discussion page becoming over large. The list on the talk page is easier to read, because it is broken down by sub-heading. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:42, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
      ]

    • Compare Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 November 7#Category:Suites where, after discussion, only the top category was moved to Category:Suites (music), while, indeed, listing the subcategories made it clear the renaming was ill-advised. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:12, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose since nobody has provided a convincing argument that the current categories are ambiguous. The only example given (Little Women) would never be called a composition and its author would never be called a composer, but a writer. Moreover, the proposed moves would result in clunky, redundant and misleading category names, as explained by Gerda and Francis. Neodop (talk) 10:40, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neodop, did you read the nomination? The word "composer" "compositionis ambiguous, which is why it is a disambiguation page: see composition.

  There will be no clunkiness or redundancy in the new titles, e.g. Category:1640 musical compositions or Category:Musical compositions by Michel van der Aa . --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:02, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • The word "composer" is not ambiguous, and it is not a disambiguation page – @BrownHairedGirl: please stop the misrepresentations, and retract this ill-conceived massive proposal already: I've further explained why that is the best way forward on your talk page. Thanks. Please stop the time sink. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:18, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Francis Schonken, that was a typo, now corrected. The ambiguous word being disambiguated is "composition". My original comment correctly linked to the dab page composition, and your attempt to label my typo as a misrepresentation is disingenuous. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:30, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per WP:C2D. ——SN54129 12:30, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose As sympathetic as I am to the intention of the renaming,
  WP:C2D, which only concerns topic categories, not the set categories under discussion here – give good enough reasons to make an exception. --RexxS (talk) 16:24, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  The last criterion in

  Oculi (talk) 16:36, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  Please read more carefully: the last bullet point in C2D explicitly states "This criterion may also be used to rename a set category in the same circumstances, where the set is defined by a renamed topic" (my emphasis). That means that if we renamed the article Michael Nyman to Michael L Nyman, we would use C2D to speedy rename Category:Compositions by Michael Nyman to Category:Compositions by Michael L Nyman (i.e. to match the eponymous article). That's all C2D can be used for. In the proposed renamings, there are not 1,342 composers or years (or whatever defining item) that have been renamed, so C2D simply does not apply.

  On the contrary, @

  WP:NCM

  does not support either your position or that of Francis. Nowhere in NCM is there any explicit guidance to use "compositions" instead of "musical compositions" ... and of course NCM uses 'Compositions ...' in its guidelines because that page is explicitly about music, so the musical context is clear. However, note that it doesn't do so exclusively: there are 4 uses of "musical composition".

  This is quote simple. If there was a consensus to use "compositions" instead of "musical compositions" for article or category titles, then that page would say so explicitly. Instead, you and Francis are trying to infer into the guideline something which it simply does not say.

  I have looked through Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (music) and its archives, and I can find no discussions anywhere of the question of "compositions"/"musical compositions". So the issue has not ben raised there, either on the face of the guideline page or in talk-page discussion. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:50, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Please observe

  WP:INDENTMIX

  ; it is an accessibility requirement.

  Are you going to badger everyone who disagrees with you, BHG? Can't you rely on the closer to judge who adduces the better arguments?

  You are completely wrong about

  WP:NCM

  , which most definitely does support Francis' position every time "composition" is used in guidance or example. The four uses of "musical composition" are as follows:

  1. Use "(instrumental)" or "(composition)" for instrumentals and non-lyrical musical compositions (excepting classical music). Note not Use "(instrumental)" or "(musical composition)".
  2. If two or more musical compositions share the same title, and disambiguation is necessary: - necessary in that case to distinguish between two different kinds of composition that may share the same title.
  3. If two or more musical compositions share their title but they are not of the same type, simple disambiguation may still be used, - as preceding.
  4. Collaborative songs—those in which two (or more) performers release a musical composition together ... - necessary in that case to distinguish between cases where collaboration could exist in other kinds of composition.

  Contrast those 4, which do not suggest that titling should use the phrase "musical composition" with the other 84 uses of the unadorned word "composition" in

  WP:NCM

  . Take special note of this guideline:

  • Only descriptive titles (including category names) would usually give the full name for any composer after "by" (List of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach, Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach).

  That guideline at

  WP:NCM couldn't be any clearer. It's stated in blue-and-white as Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach, and not Category:Musical compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach. Your assertion that "Nowhere in NCM is there any explicit guidance to use "compositions" instead of "musical compositions" turns out be false. That page is part of the manual of style, which enjoys project-wide consensus, and it will take more than a local consensus here to overturn it. I'm sorry, but that makes this is an invalid proposal. CfD doesn't have the authority to overturn MoS. --RexxS (talk) 17:34, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  This is not convincing at all. In every of these instances the guideline makes a completely different point, unrelated to the issue at hand whether to use compositions or musical compositions. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:07, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  RexxS, you are simply inventing stuff. Please stop that.

  There is no point in

  WP:NCM where it says "do not use musical compositions", or any words to that effect. If you wish to dispute this, please post the full paragraph which you believes contradicts me, and underline the words which you think are relevant. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:10, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  WP:NCM is clear that the naming convention for music categories of compositions of composers is Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach.

  Naming conventions which tell you how to name a page don't need to tell you how not to name a page, no matter how much you pretend otherwise.

  Find the naming convention that supports your choice of Category:Musical compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach, or drop it. Your proposal is fatally flawed because it contradicts MoS guidelines on the basis of spurious reasoning. Withdraw it before you waste any more of the community's valuable time. --RexxS (talk) 22:26, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  @RexxS, I am not wikilawyering. The only wikilawyering here is your attempts to misrepresent a guideline as saying something which it does not actually say, as a device to derail substantive discussion on the very simple matter of an ambiguous term in category titles.

  On the contrary, I am challenging your false assertions. The only bludgeoning here is your attempt to mislead editors by repeatedly posting a false claim.

  As I noted already, there is no point in

  WP:NCM

  where it says "do not use musical compositions", or any words to that effect. So I will ask you again: if you wish to dispute this, please post the full paragraph which you believes contradicts me, and underline the words which you think are relevant.

  As Marcocaelle noted, the brief fragments which you did quote are about other matters, such as the use of full names. They are not about "compositions"/"musical compositions", and that fact that the example says "compositions" is not prescriptive, because that is is not the issue being addressed. As a comparator, and a guideline about naming of categories for Irish towns noted the use of disambiguators for towns which share a name with the county, and cited the example of Category:Buildings and structures in Monaghan (town) ... that would not establish a convention to use "Buildings and structures", because that is not the point being made.

  And yes, I will keep this up until you either produce the evidence or withdraw the claim.

  BTW, note that even your misrepresentations of the guideline do not support your opposition to renaming the by-year/by-decade/by-century categories. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:53, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Why are you unable to comply with INDENTMIX? It's really thoughtless and unkind to screen reader users to continually change the type of list that is being used. Don't you care at all for the problems you cause for the disadvantaged?

  You've made 20 posts to this section, and that is classic

  WP:BLUDGEON. Don't blame me when you get your wings clipped for it. This is a survey not a dialogue between you and the rest of the contributors.

  Your assertions are the ones that are false.

  I've clearly shown that the guideline at NCM states that categories of compositions of composers is Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach.

  In contrast, you have abjectly failed to produce a single shed of evidence that any policy or guideline supports your choice of Category:Musical compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach.

  No matter how much you DIDNTHEARTHAT, I produced a guideline that supports the status quo; and you have produced nothing to back your personal preference.

  As Marcocaelle noted, the brief fragments which I quoted are about other matters, so that demolishes your prior attempt to read any significance to the four uses of the phrase. NCM contradicts your baseless assertions, no matter how much you try to minimise its overriding importance to this debate.

  If you're interested in addressing wider categories, then please explain why you are proposing to rename Category:Compositions by composer to Category:Musical compositions by composer? How much redundancy are you trying to introduce and for what purpose? Surely even you can see that such a proposal simply won't fly? --RexxS (talk) 22:44, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

  ]

  Lots of words, RexxS but still no sign of you quoting the paragraph which supports your interpretation. You seem to have DIDNTHEARTHAT problem with my repeated requests to quote the relevant para.

  And don't try that cheap trick of claiming that "musical compositions" is my personal preference, as if it's something I made up. As you will know from the nomination (which I assume you actually read), I have proposed it because it is the unambiguous term, per the dab page composition.

  If the guideline prescribed what you claim it prescribe, then you could quote the paragraph. You haven't posted it, because it doesn't exist ... and the more you make assertions without quotes, the more you underline the fact that it doesn't exist.

  Since you won't quote the passage which supports your claim (because it doesn't exist), let me quote for you in full the only paragraph which mentions of

  WP:NCM which mentions Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach

  . Note that it appears under the sub-heading "Disambiguate by last name only?"

Only when period, style, way of naming compositions etc can be confusing the added first name can give additional clarity, e.g. Requiem (Michael Haydn). A particular example of this is Johann Sebastian Bach and his many composing namesakes. Conventionally J. S. Bach's compositions would be the primary topic in any genre, i.e. without disambiguating term (Brandenburg Concertos) if not needed, and disambiguated or serialized by BWV number (Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor, BWV 582) or (Bach) parenthetical disambiguating term (Orchestral suites (Bach)). Only descriptive titles (including category names) would usually give the full name for any composer after "by" (List of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach, Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach). For the other Bachs, if parenthetical disambiguation by name of the composer is needed: add the initials (with periods and spaces) in the parenthesis:

• As anyone can see, this para is all about when to disambiguate ambiguous surnames. It is very clear not giving about whether to use "compositions" or "musical compositions" ... and no amount of bluster and assertion by you can alter what the guideline actually says. Please stop making things up to suit your purpose, and do try to focus on the fact that composition is a highly ambiguous word. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:44, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I see you're still demonstrating your disdain for those less fortunate, BHG. I'm glad you've found the section in NCM that specifically shows Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach. How about you finding one that shows Category:Musical compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach? And what about your proposed renaming of Category:Compositions by composer to Category:Musical compositions by composer? How are you going to defend that? --RexxS (talk) 16:56, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@RexxS, as already noted, the para is about disambiguating names. It is not about "compositions" or "musical compositions".

On the formatting, my disdain is solely for your disruption, bullying, personal insults and treats: see User_talk:BrownHairedGirl#INDENTMIX. I might consider your points if they were made with a civility, rather than by a disruptive bully who is maliciously weaponising a minor style issue (only against me). RexxS and has twice removed my posts entirely, and most recently has twice removed both indentation and paragraph breaks. Cool your jets. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:16, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The paragraph is about how to name musical articles and categories of the kind you want to rename and is absolutely pertinent to the question. You concede that

MOS:INDENTMIX and I tried refactoring your posts for you, but you choose to continually refactor the list style, causing greater and greater problems for screen reader users as the indents increase. I have tried everything to get you to cease. At this point you deserve no consideration beyond the removal of the offending markup, which I have done. --RexxS (talk) 20:34, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

Not so. The paragraph is explicitly about about when and how to disambiguate ambiguous surnames. My proposal does not try to change the guidance in NCM, because NCM does not offer guidance on this point.

Your cynical, bullying, abusive, edit-warring attempts to weaponise a minor formatting issue against only one editor are now at

WP:ANI#User:RexxS. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:53, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

• Support per nom and others above. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:35, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as unnecessary. As RexxS observed, readers will encounter these categories invariably at the bottom of an article about a musical composition. It may be possible to construct contexts where "composition" may be ambiguous (although I find even that far fetched), but there's no ambiguity about the meaning when considering the context where these categories occur. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:41, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per BrownHairedGirl. "Composition" is a broader term than just music (At school I was asked to complete my compositions for English lessons, while my daughter's stage school teach her dance composition). Removing ambiguity to help readers is always a good step. - SchroCat (talk) 08:01, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment (weak keep) - The nomination doesn't make a strong case; it would benefit from some examples of problems the current category names cause (e.g. articles or categories that refer to these categories and the meaning is unclear or, even "better", cases where an article has been wrongly categorized). The 1st article in these cats that I looked at is in lots of "composition" categories so adding "musical" several times would lengthen the category list. Having "composition" in some cases and "musical composition" in others wouldn't be helpful. DexDor ^(talk) 18:37, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose at least for the "Compositions by $person" type. The word "composition", in and of itself, may be ambiguous, but in this type of context I really can't see how it would be. What other "compositions" could be countable works "by" someone? I might be convinced in favour of a renaming in some of the other cases, such as "$decades composition" or "compositions set in $country" (for the latter group, I don't really see why it should exist at all, because it is completely redundant to the "operas set in $county" it contains). Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:23, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per opposers. "Composition" is ambiguous by it itself, but when you get to "Compositions by JS Foo" it is not. Paintings have compositions, but it is just not idiomatic to refer to one as a "composition", still less a novel like Little Women. Johnbod (talk) 00:47, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose it is highly unlikely that anyone encountering these categories would become confused as to the meaning of their titles. As Johnbod observes, these titles are not ambiguous in their proper context.
  LEPRICAVARK (talk) 00:50, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Oppose as I do not think that the current categories are ambiguous in the context of “Compositions by” – a scheme commonly used for works which are categorized by author, genre, century etc. While
  Choreography (dance). There is the prominent field of composition studies about the art of writing but a literary work would not be commonly called a composition. In the case of visual arts, composition is just an aspect of a work. The article Musical composition, however, states immediately in its lead that a the term is commonly shortened: Musical composition, music composition, or simply composition, [..]. --AFBorchert (talk) 09:54, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Oppose the default meaning of composer / composition refers to music. There's no reason to complicate things. If this change were to proceed to next step would naturally be changing "Musical compositions by composer" to "Musical compositions by musical composer." It is fine the way it is. Mr Ernie (talk) 10:07, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• For people who are into music it may seem obvious that it refers to music, but that is not the case for everybody. It is not a coincidence that the article is named Musical composition. Having said that, I would suggest that Category:Compositions by composer and subcategories are withdrawn from the nomination, because here it is more obvious that it is about music. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:18, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • After some eloquent argumentation regarding "by [time period]" categories I considered the question whether it would make sense for these, but in the end, no, still too much of trying to fix things that aren't broken, a.k.a. a solution in search of a problem. There has been no demonstration of actual problems with the current arrangement. The Little Women example was a thought experiment, and a quite unconvincing one for that: its page length is currently a considerable 66,954 bytes, but nowhere, that is not *anywhere* in the entire article, is it referred to as a "composition" or something that was "composed", and of course even far less any reference in sight that calls the book a composition. Under these circumstances the basic conditions for it ever being categorised in a "compositions" category are not fulfilled, i.e. neither
    WP:C2D guidance is causing problems, and doesn't prevent people from losing some sense of proportion w.r.t. more fundamental principles of the categorisation system, so I'm seeking a rewrite of the criterion in order to prevent future mishaps in this sense. E.g. according to the current C2D it could be argued that this CfD discussion would have been unnecessary in order to proceed with the deletion of 1,342 categories. That is a real problem, it seems indicated to introduce some precisions in that guidance to avoid future mishaps. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:29, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    • Nothing is being deleted. Plenty of speedy proposals which satisfy the speedy criteria are opposed at speedy (and an opposed speedy cannot pass, regardless of the quality of the oppose) and others which pass at speedy are brought back to cfd. Gerda's eloquent oppose was almost immediate, which rules out any speedy.
      Oculi (talk) 18:10, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
      ]

      Well, something is wrong with how the criterion is understood. This is not a speedy procedure, but CfD, yet C2D was used as a valid argument by most of the supporters above, even after Gerda's comments ... after which you also didn't retract your C2D rationale. After I intimated, above, that the C2D argument was invalid, yet more supporters continued to use it (and still none of the former supporters retracted their C2D rationale, instead doubling down on its validity), etc, etc. So no, as written currently, C2D is an invitation to organise timesinks, and the criterion should be rewritten more diligently, e.g.:

      I lost some time, because of the point being discussed above, to figure out whether or not the proposal here involved a "set category". Following links, reading guidance that was clear in itself but not on whether the "set category" principle applies here. Hence C2D is unclear and we shouldn't have the kind of discussion produced above on whether or not "set category" applies. Really, after reading and studying all that I still can't say whether the proposal involves a set category or not.

      Whether "set category" or not, the "eponymous article" principle applies – not only for the top parent category, but for each and every one of the 1,342 subcategories proposed in the set (duh!). I pointed to subcategories that should stay at their current name because they have eponymous mainspace articles matching the current category name... followed by more C2D-based supporters, and no sign of at least retracting these obvious non-starter C2D categories from the proposed set.

      So no, some precision is needed in the C2D description: as is currently it has proven, at least in this case, extremely counterproductive, soaking disproportionate amounts of editor time. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:01, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

      If I can be helpful,

      J S Bach, then C2D is used as the reason to then speedy-rename the category to match: Category:Compositions by J S Bach. That's all it does. --RexxS (talk) 20:42, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

      ]

      I said the guidance is clear enough what a set category means: it is defined (as you do in the paragraph above) by the articles contained in it (however, its real definition is different from yours, see Wikipedia:Categorization#Set category). It is however *not* defined by its subcategories. So what C2D says about renaming subcategories (at least in the reasonng of those supporting the massive change above) is totally and utterly unclear. C2D is, however, without a shred of doubt clear that if List of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach is the uncontroversial and unambiguous article title for a category's main article, that I can can "speedy" whatever other name than Category:Lists of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach for that category out of the way, including the one proposed for the category in the OP. And that's why the proposal above set out for failure from the start. Category experts should have figured that out long ago, but for some reason they didn't, so the language of C2D needs to be made more clear so that these time swamps can no longer be organised – and if one is initiated, that it can be checked sooner & with less drama. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:46, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

      • You are technically right, the top category is a matter of
        WP:C2C. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:29, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
        ]

        Re. "the subcategories are a matter of

        WP:C2C" – no, they are not: C2C can only be used when there is "a category naming convention ... [which is] overwhelmingly used within the tree". What the "overwhelming" convention is, is clear from around 1500 categories (that is, those included in this CfD, and several branches not included such as Category:Compositions by instrumentation + subcat, Category:Compositions by key + subcats, Category:Classical compositions + subcats). The only possible use of C2C in this context would be when weighing C2C against C2D for the top category (and that top category is not included in the current CfD). --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:19, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

        ]

        Subcategories should follow the top category, not vice versa. The fundamental error goes back to the creation in 2004 of the incorrectly named subcat scheme for

        Oculi (talk) 10:00, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

        ]

        Re. "Subcategories should follow the top category" – there's no such "speedy" rule, and likely not even a non-speedy rule. The category tree is well-established, whether or not I was the one who started it in 2004 (and I'm quite sure it was the logical thing to do per whatever rules existed at the time – and still is per whatever rules exist now). --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:20, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break (musical compositions survey)

• But the comment above regarding C2C makes clear a category tree needs not only be well-established, but also "well defined" before the C2C "speedy" rule can be used – so, whatever comes out of this CfD, it would be wise to add a category tree naming convention to
  WP:NCM, so that if anyone would, e.g., start a category named Category:Torri's operas that it can be "speedied" to whatever the explicit convention is. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:20, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • Maybe we need to have another look at the precise wording, but it is obvious that both
    WP:C2C aim at preventing that exactly the same arguments need to be repeated in multiple different discussions. After we have a thorough discussion about the article name, we do not need another identical discussion about the eponymous category name (unless there is good reason for it and different arguments apply to the category than for the article). Similarly, after we have a thorough discussion about the top category name, we do not need other identical discussions about the subcategories (unless there is good reason for it and different arguments apply to the subcategories than for the top category). Marcocapelle (talk) 11:45, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    • A sort of speedy criterion for category trees, which could absorb both C2D and C2C? Laudable idea but unrealistic. If it were possible it would have been done already. C2C asks for a category tree convention being explicitly defined elsewhere before one can start applying the criterion to additional categories of that tree. Even a well-established (but undescribed) tree convention is not enough. That probably points to issues which can not be overridden by "speedy" proceedings. And the current CfD is an excellent illustration why "speedy" is an undesirable approach in such circumstances. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:19, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Speedy does not override anything; quite the opposite. Just look at the current speedies; about half are opposed (and thus cannot proceed speedily). The first part of
        Oculi (talk) 11:29, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
        ]
• Oppose: There really seems to be a problem of English comprehension in this proposal. Yes, of course the verb "compose" has many meanings, and "composition" almost as many. ("Composer" somewhat fewer still, I think.) But in context there is no ambiguity at all, and the opinion of anyone who thinks Little Women was composed can and should be ignored. FWIW, if the category titles were supposed to be elegant English, it would be better to get rid of the repetition in "Compositions by *** composers", which could be "Works by *** composers", which unambiguously refers to music written by the people concerned. Imaginatorium (talk) 11:56, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose generally -- In theory a converse is literary compositions, but they are rarely so described. Composer is overwhelmingly used of musical works. I might accept the suggested change for a few categories at the top of the tree, but Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc did not compose non-musical works, so that the addition of "musical" is wholly redundant. I prefer category names to be kept short. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:37, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Categories can in general afford to be a bit more concise than article titles or running text, since 99% of users interact with them by starting with an article. Someone starting with an article on a Bach cantata is not going to get confused and think the category at the bottom includes literary compositions. SnowFire (talk) 01:58, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Just clarifying that a Bach cantata would not even go into Category:Compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach, but a subcategory, Category:Church cantatas by Johann Sebastian Bach, and much of what is left in the the mother category should probably also be moved. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:21, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the discussion was: Delete Timrollpickering (Talk) 11:48, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose deleting Category:Northern Virginia politicians (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  

Nominator's rationale: Subcategorizing politicians by region of the state is overcategorizing. TM 17:27, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. It's a culturally distinct region (together with Richmond and bits of Hampton Roads, they basically run the state and ignore the rest of us), but the problem is that it doesn't have precise boundaries. Is a delegate from Frederick County from Northern Virginia? (It's the northernmost county in the state, but "Northern Virginia normally doesn't mean that far west.) What about a senator from Spotsylvania County? It's far southeast of Frederick, but it's linked by Interstate 95 to Northern Virginia and basically a part of the metro area now. Same with politicians from Culpeper County, another fringe county. And finally, what about a politician who moves from Arlington County to Dickenson County (like that would ever happen); would we categorise him as being Northern Virginia or Southwestern Virginia, or both? Much better to split up the politicians by city or county, if we need to split them up. Nyttend (talk) 22:56, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Question -- Is there any robust or accepted means of splitting the state by cardinal points? If not, it must be deleted. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the discussion was: merge. – Fayenatic London 10:41, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose merging Category:Reform synagogues in West Virginia to Category:Synagogues in West Virginia and Category:Reform synagogues in the United States

Nominator's rationale: Dual upmerge. Small category (2 articles) that is unlikely to substantially grow. TM 17:02, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per OCAT as part of wider scheme (38 state sub-cats in Category:Reform synagogues in the United States). Johnbod (talk) 14:07, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge 24 of the 38 state subcategories under Category:Reform synagogues in the United States have 4 or fewer articles so I don't accept this sub-categorization scheme. Breaking up articles across a whole tree that is mostly sparsely populated doesn't aid navigation. RevelationDirect (talk) 02:25, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge per RevelationDirect. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:29, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If this way is chosen, a new full nom should be done. Until then, this should be kept. Arguments that these sub-cats are incapable of expansion would be required, I think. Johnbod (talk) 16:04, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No one is arguing that they are incapable of growing, but that they are unlikely to grow substantially. The Jewish Virtual Library say that there were 2,310 Jews in the entire state of West Virginia as of 2017. It is unlikely that there are 5 or more notable reform synagogues in a state with such a small Jewish population.--TM 16:58, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OCLOCATION can also be a criteria here. RevelationDirect (talk) 16:36, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

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The result of the discussion was: delete, moving the biography. – Fayenatic London 10:38, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose deleting Category:Deaths from fire in June 2017 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  

Nominator's rationale:

WP:NARROWCAT and there's no parent Deaths from fire in month, year categorization scheme. The category itself contains one structural fire, one wildfire, one explosion and one person, while Category:Deaths from fire is reserved for persons. Brandmeister^talk 16:29, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

• Support per nom, but add the one biography to Category:Deaths from fire. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:17, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per Marcocapelle....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 19:53, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete -- most (if not all) of the content is in Category:Fires in 2017. The Grenfell deaths were a terrible tragedy, but that does not make its victims individually notable; not any other fatal fire. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:43, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the discussion was: keep without prejudice against a fresh nomination to discuss Category:Songs by country (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 08:07, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose deleting Category:Iranian songs (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  

Nominator's rationale: Redundant - Songs should be categorized after language and/or genre (and Iranian is not a language). Semsurî (talk) 16:03, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Term 'Iranian' can be misleading since it can be understood as the the pan-ethnic term or confused for Persians (which many believe Iranian is a synonym of). The category could be renamed "songs from/of Iran" but again not relevant. --Semsurî (talk) 17:07, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - the same rationale would apply to anything in
  Oculi (talk) 19:09, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep, the same rationale would apply to much of the hierarchy Category:Culture by country – we know that national cultures are followed by the diaspora as well as the nation, but we still use the demonym. – Fayenatic London 08:47, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment currently, it only has Iranian patriotic songs subcat, so I'm indifferent to what happens to this one; although some "patriotic songs" may not be entirely from that country - the
  America (My Country, 'Tis of Thee) has different words but the same tune as the British national anthem of an anonymous but certainly not American composer. I know we had a conversation earlier about whether songs have countries, and what that connection would be based on (authorship in the country, by one of that country's citizens, or some other cultural collection?) Are all of an American songwriter's songs "American songs", even if recorded by a Canadian? or written while in Mexico? or sold more records in Japan? or were in the French language? or became a cultural fixture in Morocco? And if the American songwriter obtains a second nationality, all his or her songs become that nationality's songs as well? Or renounces his or her citizenship, the songs are no longer American? Then we get to multiple authors issues. We should resolve whether and how songs can be categorized by country. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:56, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Rename Category:Songs of Iran these seem all to be such. I was going to suggest Category:Farsi songs or Category:Songs in Farsi, which would also be relevant. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:48, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the discussion was: Merge Timrollpickering (Talk) 11:51, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose merging Category:LGBT members of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors to Category:San Francisco Board of Supervisors members, Category:LGBT city councillors from the United States, Category:LGBT history in San Francisco, Category:LGBT people from the San Francisco Bay Area

Nominator's rationale: Multiple upmerge. This is an overly narrow triple intersection of municipality, sexual orientation, and political office. TM 15:53, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge. I don't understand the reason why these particular people should be singled out/categorised due to their sexual orientation or sex-gender parity. --Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝) 16:57, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result of the discussion was: delete. The articles are already in Category:Set indices on military vehicles so a merge is not needed. (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 08:12, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose deleting Category:Tank names (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  

• Category:Germany tank names
• Category:United Kingdom tank names
• Category:United States tank names

Nominator's rationale: The existence of this category tree gives the impression that we have articles about the naming of tanks - we don't. What we have is 4 dab-like SIAs that are much better categorized in Category:Set indices on military vehicles.  Note: These pages would probably be better as dabs because incoming links are mostly/all intended to be to a specific article, but that's a separate issue. DexDor ^(talk) 14:31, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom. Those belong to relevant Category:Tanks by country subcats. Brandmeister^talk 16:36, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Note: I haven't proposed upmerging to the tanks-of-country categories as the actual articles (e.g. Tiger II) are already in those categories and these pseudo-dabs don't need to be. DexDor ^(talk) 18:49, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom, they should go in Category:Set indices on military vehicles -- 65.94.170.207 (talk) 12:24, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Perhaps Merge to a Category:Germany tanks etc, or are they already in subcats of these? Peterkingiron (talk) 15:51, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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talk page or in a deletion review

). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: delete; no need for merge as the sub-cats are in Municipalities of Central and Western Visayas‎. – Fayenatic London 10:33, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Propose deleting Category:Municipalities of Negros (Philippines) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  

Nominator's rationale: Empty category of a defunct region. —hueman1 (talk • contributions) 11:54, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment and trout slap for nominator. Per
  WP:CFD reads- "Except in uncontroversial cases such as reverting vandalism, do not amend or depopulate a category once it has been nominated at CfD as this hampers other editors' efforts to evaluate a category and participate in the discussion. The nominator depopulated the nominated category, here[5] and here[6]. I have since restored its two entries....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 12:18, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Comment: @WilliamJE: But this is uncontroversial. —hueman1 (talk • contributions) 13:11, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @HueMan1: But if something is defunct, the category sometimes gets renamed to label it as something defunct rather than deleted. I requested[7] administrator Liz to chime in. Let's abide by whatever she says. Ok?...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 13:56, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• This category has not been emptied and shouldn't be once a case has been opened. The closer will decide how to handle this and then a bot can do the work. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:47, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Absolute support: Defunct, or should I say, dead administrative region. Quoting from
  COVID-19 pandemic. Even if it is neutralized sooner (which we wish to happen as early as possible), our mindset will be the top national, public priorities (esp. public health) as opposed to the proposed federalism that might resurrect this region. As such this category needs to be deleted. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 02:42, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• @HueMan1, WilliamJE, Liz, and JWilz12345: shouldn't it be merged to Category:Municipalities of the Philippines by region rather than deleted? Marcocapelle (talk) 08:21, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• @Marcocapelle: Possible, as long as it becomes defunct and inactive after merging. The region is defunct anyway, and as per current conditions in our country, federalism that might revive it will not be a top priority at the moment. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 09:29, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]