Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 5

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June 5

Category:Spanish manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:03, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:OCLOCATION) or preserved in Spain (by collection). Refining it to a language-based category makes most sense. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:32, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Rename, less ambiguous. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The issue with this proposal (as with the other manuscript category renaming proposals) is that the category does not refer to language nor to discovery. It refers to origin, that is, this is a category for manuscripts produced in Spain—which is how manuscript scholars (such as myself) tend to approach the subject. Language categorization does not make sense in this context. If you recategorize by language you’ll end up with a massive, and unhelpful, ‘Latin language manuscripts’ category. SJLahey (talk) 12:26, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • We have Category:Latin manuscripts and it seems helpful. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:06, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      What Marcocapelle said. Of course, it is possible to create subcategories of Latin manuscripts (and there already are). Compare Category:Latin chronicles about France: the texts are about France, but they are written in Latin. A lot of items which were categorised as 'Spanish manuscripts' were written in Latin, and not about Spain, but about the Bible or patristics, for example, so their connection with 'Spain' (especially before 'Spain' existed in arguably 1479) is questionable.
      I do not think it is clear, at all, from the items in this category tree Category:Manuscripts by area as a whole that they are meant to group manuscripts by area of production. As I said about Category:German manuscripts: these manuscripts are written in the German language, not necessarily in Germany, nor about Germany, nor by Germans. In many cases we don't even know where it was "originally" written, because the provenance is often unclear. You can say based on internal linguistic arguments in what kind of language milieu the author lived or was influenced by, but that doesn't necessary tell you where the author actually put the pen to paper (or some other writing materials).
      Elsewhere in the category tree, there has been significant mixups between manuscripts by area, language, topic, type, collection as well, so it is not at all clear what "area" even means, and it is explained differently in different parts of the tree. So it makes sense to go for something that is actually
      WP:DEFINING, like language in this case. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:16, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
      ]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Association of African Universities

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: listify.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:04, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Convert Category:Association of African Universities to article Association of African Universities
Nominator's rationale: Non-defining characteristic; listify in new section
fgnievinski (talk) 22:17, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Swiss manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:02, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:SMALLCAT. 2 P. These mss aren't necessarily written in Switzerland or kept there (Cgm 558 is in Munich), but they are about (the history of) Switzerland. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:07, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Italian manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:03, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:OCLOCATION). Refining it to a language-based category makes most sense. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:German manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:05, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:CATSPECIFIC: these manuscripts are written in the German language, not necessarily in Germany, nor about Germany, nor by Germans. See also Category:German-language chronicles. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:31, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:French manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:05, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
Arthurian legends, and the last two are songs. See also Category:French-language chronicles. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The category does not refer to language, nor to topic of the manuscript. It refers to origin, that is, this is a category for manuscripts produced in France—which is how manuscript scholars (such as myself) tend to approach the subject. Language categorization does not make sense in this context. If you recategorize by language you’ll end up with a massive, and unhelpful, ‘Latin language manuscripts’ category. SJLahey (talk) 12:31, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Marcocapelle and I answered this question at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 5#Category:Spanish manuscripts. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:18, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Greek manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:44, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:CATSPECIFIC. These manuscripts are written in the Greek language, they are not necessarily about Greece or the Greeks, nor necessarily written by Greeks or in Greece, nor necessarily found or preserved in Greece (this is especially true about the Septuagint manuscripts). See also Category:Greek-language chronicles. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:03, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Finnish chronicles

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:45, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:SMALLCAT 1 P. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:51, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Scandinavian manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: delete.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:43, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:SMALLCAT 1 P, which is already in Category:Swedish manuscripts anyway. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Swedish manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:44, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:CATSPECIFIC. It's better to rename/rescope this to be 'about Sweden', because most of these are written in Latin, not Swedish, and some are preserved in collections outside Sweden. We're more talking about chronicles than the manuscripts of those chronicles anyway. See also Fayenatic and I talking about it elsewhere. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:29, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Middle American pictorial manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:46, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: Mesoamerica is the pre-Columbian historical-cultural region. Middle America (Americas) is the modern region. This category is about Mesoamerica. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 20:05, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds good. Originally, I named the category that way following John B. Glass's and Donald Robertson's classic work on the topic, "A Census of Native Middle American Pictorial Manuscripts" (1975). However, the suggested change seems sensible and makes the category more accurate for current readers. Tlakwilo (talk) 22:02, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Glad you agree! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:18, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Bengali-language manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:46, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:SMALLCAT 1 P. I tried to populate it with items from Category:Indian manuscripts, but couldn't find any others (except two Assamese ones, but this is a (closely related but) separate language). Parent Category:South Asian manuscripts will thus also become empty. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:55, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Rulers of Monaco

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. ✗plicit 07:27, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parents Category:Monarchs in Europe and Category:Monarchy in Monaco. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:02, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Alemannic rulers

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename.
(non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:24, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parent Category:Monarchs in Europe. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:00, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
  • In the earliest middle ages the words duke and king were used interchangeably to refer to the heads of Germanic tribes outside of Francia. They were monarchs in any case, as they were independent hereditary rulers. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, not every early medieval duke was a monarch. Nothing is gained by calling the Alemannic rulers 'monarchs'. Nothing. It is useless conformity. Srnec (talk) 00:43, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Meanwhile, 'ruler' still appears to be a vague ambiguous catch-all for whatever anyone wants it to mean. From emperor for life with absolute hereditary power (which can only be challenged by violence) down to local elected mayor for a 1-year fixed term (but removable from office by formal legal procedure if they engage in some sort of mismanagement or misconduct). The list of offices for which I have seen 'ruler' used as a synonym on English Wikipedia still keeps growing. If anyone writes that Bar was a ruler of Foo, I still have no idea what Bar's position in Fooian society was. Fortunately, we have already cleared up most ambiguities to something more
    WP:DEFINING. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:19, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:4th-century rulers in Europe

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:4th-century European people, etc. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:49, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:SMALLCAT 0 P, 1 C. See precedent Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 27#Category:1st-century rulers in Europe. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:52, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Norwegian manuscripts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:50, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:CATSPECIFIC To make clear this category is by language, not by country/area, and to match category description This category contains pages on manuscripts in the Old Norwegian language, i.e. from the earliest fragments of the 12th century to the mid-16th century. (...) We might want to trim this description a bit, because it's unnecessarily long and argumentative for simply explaining the category's purpose. See also Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 5#Category:Medieval documents of Norway (which might be merged into it), and Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 27#Category:Manuscripts by area (where I argue to change the scope from 'by area' to 'by topic'). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:29, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
@Hugo999: you may find this interesting. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per category description, and a less ambiguous category name. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:25, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:American football teams in El Paso, Texas

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:50, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:SMALLCAT (1 C, 1 P). –Aidan721 (talk) 15:33, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Cemeteries in Odesa

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: Dual merge per
WP:SMALLCAT User:Namiba 13:17, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:La Ferme Célébrités participants

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: delete.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:54, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: As celebrity contestants on a reality TV show, these fail
WP:PERFCAT --woodensuperman 11:55, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Sports in the United States by city

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:56, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Rename all to match Category:Sports in the United States by populated place. Many of these categories include places that are not designated as cities. For history, see Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_January_19#Category:Sports_in_the_United_States_by_city. Additionally merge Category:Sportspeople by city in the United States and Category:Sportspeople by town in the United States to Category:Sportspeople by populated place in the United States. –Aidan721 (talk) 11:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Doping cases in Australian soccer

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:59, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: Per
WP:NARROWCAT, only three articles in the category. Should be upmerged to Category:Australian sportspeople in doping cases and Category:Doping cases in association football. S.A. Julio (talk) 09:37, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Kapiti Coast District

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename, but this seems to have been done out of process. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Medieval documents of Norway

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 29#Category:Medieval documents of Norway

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