Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 13

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June 13

Category:Saggart

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. There is sufficient support to delete this category. I have moved Citywest to Category:Places in South Dublin (county) per Marcocapelle's suggestion. TheSandDoctor Talk 00:10, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per
WP:SMALLCAT. 14 years after its creation, this contains only the head article Saggart and three others.
Saggart is rapidly-growing suburb of Dublin but until a few decades ago it was just a wee village without a very significant history. There is little prospect of expansion for a area which is mostly new-build housing estates. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:45, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Support - the only growth likely is in people, who would sit in a sub-cat.; per other area-related-category discussions here, this can be handled without the "bracket" category. SeoR (talk) 00:17, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Priorswood

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:19, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: Per
WP:SMALLCAT. Contains only the head article Priorswood and one other. Priorswood is a tiny part of the Dublin suburb of Coolock, and there is no prospect of expansion BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:32, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Query - I would not go so far as to say "no prospect" but as with Saggart, the potential is limited, and comprises three main strands - history, amenities and notable people. The reason I hesitate is that Coolock is a very large area (pop. >50,000, far more than most Irish towns) with a long history, and I think there might be benefit is having sub-cats for areas like Priorswood and Darndale, which are not so small population-wise, and do have identities of their own, and 1-2 historic buildings and a park each, for example, which have or might have articles. This is a case where structure might be beneficial. But perhaps this is something which could be come back to later, when more articles of relevance exist. SeoR (talk) 00:22, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge for Now If the category ever gets to 5+ articles, no objection to recreation. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:13, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Education schools in Ireland

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:20, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Propose renaming:
Nominator's rationale: to reflect Irish usage. The term "Education school" is not used in Ireland. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:25, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I support the idea of a change - but I would say that the most common Irish usage is the slightly longer "Teacher training college" - I am from a family with teachers and have never heard "Teachers colleges" (or "Teacher colleges", etc.) used. Or... the modern usage is "Colleges of education". SeoR (talk) 00:28, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@SeoR: "Colleges of education" is not a helpful term. Surely all colleges are "Colleges of education"?
"Teacher training colleges" is much clearer, and as @
Oculi
notes it's the term used for the UK categories, so that avoids a clash of terms in Northern Ireland.
Thanks to you both: I will amend the nom. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:06, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Tram transport in Ireland before partition

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: Merge (non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 20:34, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: There is no wider scheme of pre-partition of Ireland categories and no benefit in creating one. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:14, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but... - I think we can't say "no benefit in creating one" so categorically (pun not intended), as in fact it might some day be useful - but for now, I support the merge. SeoR (talk) 00:29, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Dublin Wheelers

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: Delete (non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 20:34, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per
WP:SMALLCAT. Contains only the head article Dublin Wheelers and one subcat. No prospect of expansion. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:09, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Support - serves only to "bracket" people with club, no other articles very likely (some day, perhaps a list article or two, or a competition article, but no sign yet), so for now, sayonara... SeoR (talk) 00:31, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Raheny GAA

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: Delete (non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 20:34, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per
WP:SMALLCAT. Contains only the head article Raheny GAA and one subcat. No prospect of expansion. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:07, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
No issue - bracketed the club and players, indeed unlikely to contain anything else. SeoR (talk) 00:15, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Ballygall

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: Merge (non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 20:34, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Per
WP:SMALLCAT. This was a strange hybrid category, a mix of people and places. I moved the people to a new subcat Category:People from Ballygall which leaves only 2 articles. Ballygall is a small district, so there is little room for growth. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:57, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Support - it was a small cat., and really just bracketed people and the place, which is not even a full distinct district / suburb, so the cat. can be dispensed with without much issue. SeoR (talk) 00:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Television series by Uncharted

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:21, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: I'm unclear on what the correct disambiguation for this should be. The article says that it is a production label. Gonnym (talk) 19:43, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Manu Gavassi

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: delete.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:22, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: With only subcategories for articles on albums and songs which already interlink with each other, this is another unnecessary eponymous parent.
WP:OCEPON. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 18:24, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:European civilizations

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: selective merge and delete.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:23, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: Follow-up to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 April 25#Category:Post-classical civilizations. This category was overlooked (by me) in the last round of discussions on civilizations categories created by Maxaxax in late 2022. Rationale remains the same. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:11, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Turkish-speaking countries and territories

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename and purge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:55, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Expatriates A-G

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: withdrawn by nominator. – Fayenatic London 21:16, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Full list of around 310 categories
This is the full list of categories nominated at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 13#Expatriates A-G
  • Rationale: recent cfds such as
    Oculi (talk) 15:38, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:21, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:02, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. These mergers to multiple targets create a maintenance nightmare, and the sheer scale of tis nomination makes it impossible to believe that the nominator has done
    WP:SMALLCAT which is for "Small with no potential for growth": categories that, by their very definition, will never have more than a few members, unless such categories are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme.
    These cats are indeed part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme, and i our age of globalisation, they do have potential for growth. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:58, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Merge per nom. The value of these categories if incomplete is dubious and as has been observed, actually populating them would take many thousands of hours. They should be kept in the respective parent categories and only created when a more reasonable number are already in the parent. - car chasm (talk) 03:50, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well said. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:38, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Carchasm & @Nederlandse Leeuw: you both write as if you have never actually done the work of populating such categories, and are advocating an idealised process which won't work in practise.
    There are basically two possible approaches when you find an article on an emigrant from Foo to Bar:
    1. add the page to Category:Fooian emigrants to Bar. If the category doesn't exist, then create it
    2. add the page to Category:Fooian emigrants and add the page to Category:Immigrants to Bar.
    The first approach, which I favour, ensures that neither of the parent categries grows too big, because the articles are subcatted by a quick and easy distributed process.
    The second approach, which you two seem to advocate, means that the creation of a subcat requires an editor to first review dozens or even hundreds of articles in Category:Fooian emigrants and Category:Immigrants to Bar to try to find four other articles to populate a Category:Fooian emigrants to Bar.
    Beacuse the subcats have not been created on the go, both Category:Fooian emigrants and Category:Immigrants to Bar will be large. That makes it a huge job to scan each of them to populate possible subcats, and we simply do not have that many skilled category editors willing to put in the huge amounts of time required to do this routinely for 200+ countries.
    This is letting the best be the enemy of the good. It's well-intended, but in reality it's not gonna happen. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:56, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, the first approach assumes that once we've found 1 Belgian emigrant to Uzbekistan, we should immediately create
    important rules to follow. And, also like building construction, you can't expect the inspectors to fix things for you, or to close their eyes and hope the problem will fix itself someday. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:27, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    @Nederlandse Leeuw: you don't seem to be hearing me. As above, either we build the subcats as soon as there is a article to populate them, or they don't get built ... 'cos it is v unlikely that anyone will put in the huge amount of time needed to gather sets of 5 articles out of long lists. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:59, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh I hear you, I just don't agree with you because of the policies, guidelines and essays mentioned. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:11, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I create new categories with at least 5 items all the time. It's not rocket science (unless we're talking about Category:Rocket scientists or something). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, the guideline
    WP:SMALLCAT
    supports my view: "part of an established series". Also "no potential for growth", and for none of the >300 nominated categories has anyone offered any evidence at all about growth potential. Nada, nothing.
    It's a pity that some editors want to ignore the guidelines and in your case to illustrate your point with non-existent categories. I hope that the closer will do their
    WP:NOTAVOTE
    job and discard all the !votes which flagrantly ignore the guidelines.
    And of course it's not rocket science. It's just a huge amount of work to find sets of 5 when there are >200 possible subcats.
    That means that in exremis it would be possible for a Category:Emigrants from Foo to contain nearly 1000 articles without any of them reaching the minimum threshold to create a subcat. That's why these emigrant categories are an odd case, because it's v rare to have so many possible permutations. If you or the other deletionists here had actually tried subcatting emigrant expat categories, you'd be aware of the difficulties. This is a radically different situation to case where there are a few dozen potential subcats. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:00, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    for none of the >300 nominated categories has anyone offered any evidence at all about growth potential. The burden of evidence for growth potential was on whoever created those nearly-unpopulated categories in the first place.
    illustrate your point with non-existent categories. Those are thought experiments to make my case; what's wrong with that? You use non-existent category Category:Fooian emigrants to Bar yourself, I don't see the problem.
    flagrantly ignore the guidelines. Indeed, the guidelines should not be ignored, just like the "Word of warning" section should not be ignored when
    WP:DEMOLISH
    is invoked.
    it would be possible for a Category:Emigrants from Foo to contain nearly 1000 articles without any of them reaching the minimum threshold to create a subcat. That's well-reasoned, but in reality it's not gonna happen.
    It's just a huge amount of work to find sets of 5 when there are >200 possible subcats. I don't know how you look for subcats to put items in, but if I wanted to put Henk in Category:Fooian emigrants to Bar, I would put "category:Emigrants by" in the search bar, find Category:Emigrants by nationality, click on the Category:Fooian emigrants subcat and see if it has a Category:Fooian emigrants to Bar subsubcat. That takes me fewer than 20 seconds. If it doesn't, I can always try and see if there are at least 5 "to Bar" items in the Category:Fooian emigrants subcat to create that subsubcat myself. That can be done manually, or by searching for a combination of "Fooian emigrants" + "Bar" in the search bar. I might even do an external search with Google to find the exact word combination in site:en.wikipedia.org. That shouldn't take more than 10 minutes. I don't know what the relevance is of ">200 possible subcats" existing when I'm looking for a very specific combination of "to Bar" in an existing category of "Fooian emigrants". Am I missing something? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:57, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Utter nonsense. See
    WP:BEFORE
    : The burden is on the nominator.
    Your search fails, because the article may not state the country: it may name the city or county or region or state.
    It's blindingly obvious that you are pontificating away with great certainty about how to do a task which you have never actually done. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:13, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:OC
    the burden is on the category creator, because there are certain types of categories that should generally be avoided; and such categories, if created, are likely to be deleted if the creator does not follow this editing guideline.
    the article may not state the country True, but I could also search of city, region, state etc. like you suggested. Moreover, if there are 10 articles which would fit the intended category, but only 7 state the country, I've still got enough items to create the category. The point is: I don't need to find all fitting items immediately, I just need to cross that threshold of at least 5 items to create a new category. It's a minimal effort the community can require of me. I don't think it's acceptable to let me create a
    WP:SMALLCAT
    as soon as I've found only 1 or 2 item(s), and then move on to something else. I think that would be lazy of me, and the community should not allow me to do that.
    It's blindingly obvious that you are pontificating away with great certainty about how to do a task which you have never actually done. Well, I've just created Category:Latin manuscripts about England, a nice new category with 11 items. To be honest with you, it took me a little under two hours to verify that these 11 items fitted that description. Normally it doesn't take that long, but that's because many of the articles do not say explicitly in which language the manuscript is written, or what the text is about. But I'd rather take my time to do a task properly than to just rush through it, creating SMALLCATs everywhere or miscategorising items as I go, leaving heaps of rubbish for others to clean up. So I do do certain tasks of categorising, not because they are easy, but because they help both readers and editors find what they're looking for, without creating more category clutter, and per chance by cleaning up existing category clutter in the process. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd rather take my time to do a task properly than to just rush through it. It's a great pity that the nominator appears not hae taken the time to do
    WP:BEFORE properly. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:54, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Yeah, agreed with Nederlandse Leeuw. I'm currently working on the philosopher categories, and having all of, e.g. Category:Epistemologists populated makes it much easier to determine which subcategories can be made that partition the set and find the articles that belong in them. I understand not letting the best be the enemy of the good, I just don't think a category that's mostly unpopulated *is* good. I'd rather never have X emigrants to y country be created at all than have it only contain 4% of the eligible articles. - car chasm (talk) 17:42, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note to closer. This nomiation is deeply flawed:
  1. It has no
    WP:BEFORE
  2. it ignores the guideline
    WP:SMALLCAT
    's restriction to categories with "no potential for growth", without indication of any assessment of such potential
  3. #it ignores the guideline
    WP:SMALLCAT
    's exception for categories whch are part of an established series, as these are.
So if this is closed as "merge", I will take it to
WP:DRV. Please can you therefore hold off implementing any close to allow the DRV to happen first. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:23, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
@
WP:CLOSECHALLENGE
does not allow a deletion review to be used 5. to repeat arguments already made in the deletion discussion.
Your 18:58, 13 June 2023 Oppose !vote already argued that it is impossible to believe that the nominator has done
WP:SMALLCAT
which is for "Small with no potential for growth". You've repeatedly invoked both policies in your comments since, so this cannot be a ground for a deletion review.
Moreover, I think you shouldn't be sort of 'intimidating' the closer by warning that you will take it to
WP:DRV
 before any decision has even been made. A closer needs to be able to make a decision without any beforehand pressure from any editor involved that there will be negative consequences if they make a decision which any editor involved disagrees with.
This isn't the first time in this discussion that I think the way you are treating your fellow editors (myself included) should be a bit more
WP:CIVIL
.
  • E.g. you've said it was impossible to believe that the nominator has done
    WP:AGF
    );
  • You've called Marcocapelle's comment disingenuous (potentially at odds with
    WP:AGF
    );
  • You've said It's a pity that some editors want to ignore the guidelines and discard all the !votes which flagrantly ignore the guidelines. (potentially at odds with
    WP:AGF
    , as this implicitly accuses fellow editors of incompetence or acting in bad faith);
  • This last set of statements is less worrisome, but still a bit on the edge. @Carchasm & @Nederlandse Leeuw: you both write as if you have never actually done the work of populating such categories, and are advocating an idealised process which won't work in practise, and If you or the other deletionists here had actually tried subcatting emigrant expat categories, you'd be aware of the difficulties., and It's blindingly obvious that you are pontificating away with great certainty about how to do a task which you have never actually done. This is essentially accusing us of incompetence, although I can understand your frustration if you feel like you've got a lot more experience with editing in this field. Your statement I am alarmed by the scant regard which this nomination and its supporters show for the purpose of categories and for the preservation of metadata seems to confirm you've got genuine and legitimate concerns over what is going to happen if the nominated categories will be deleted, and you're perfectly within your rights to say this. Expressing this frustration that we don't seem to understand or agree with your point of view is okay, but I wish you would word it differently per
    WP:AVOIDUNCIVIL
    Avoid condescension.
I would really like to continue cooperating with you on lots issues. In fact, I find myself often agreeing with lots of comments and arguments you've made here at Categories for discussion; you've got a keen eye for details that many others miss, and you often provide solutions I agree with. It becomes a bit difficult to do that when comments such as the above are the way you are treating me and fellow editors. I fully understand your frustration, and I am familiar with it, but I hope you can find better ways to deal with it. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:48, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's just wikilawyering and offence-taking.
When it comes the treatment of other editors, the real issue here is the attempt to demolish the categorisation work of many editors without doing
WP:BEFORE
, without following the long-established guideline and without considering a less radical alternative.
As to deletion review, I stand by my comments. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:59, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nederlandse Leeuw's clear-eyed overview of of the comments under this nom deserved more than 11 minutes of consideration before you dismissed it out of hand as "just wikilawyering and offence-taking". - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:37, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I stand by my response.
Take for example my comment that it is impossible to believe that the nominator has done
WP:BEFORE
. To do a meaningful assessment of the number of uncategorised emigrants from Foo to Bar takes several minutes for each Foo-Bar pairing. There are 300 categories in this nom so even if the nom had woked at high speed and spent two minutes on each category, that's 600 minutes of work. Ten hours, even in turbo mode. Several days at normal speed.
If the nom had really put in ten or more hours of work on this assessment, it would be weird for them to make no mention of that in the nomination. And if this highly experienced editor had put in ten or more hours of work but not mentioned it in the nomination, it is impossible to believe that they would continue to keep that hard work a secret when challenged. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:28, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Those by-continent groupings would be more useful than the proposed global categories, which lump in migrants from Asia with tfrom Africa, Europe, Oceania, South America and North America. I would still oppose the merges, but using by-continent targets would be significantly less destructive than this proposal to simply demolish a large chunk of our human migration categories. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • While the proposal has the appearance of a massive change, it will in practice result in very few articles added directly to each of the parent categories, such that a further split of those parent categories (by continent or by anything else) is completely unnecessary. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:29, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Marcocapelle, you appear to be approaching this from a purely mathematical perspective. Hoever, the purpose of categories is to assist navigation, and the avoidable loss of continent data is a significant impediment to navigation. I am alarmed by the scant regard which this nomination and its supporters show for the purpose of categories and for the preservation of metadata.
    Category:Afghan emigrants to Europe and Category:Asian emigrants to the Czech Republic would both be well-populated with other articles and categories. This fits with the existing by-continent categories such as Category:Czech people of Asian descent, of which Category:Asian emigrants to the Czech Republic would be a subcat. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:45, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • For the nominated tree there is no loss of continent data because these data do not exist yet. I would not stop you if you would start creating continent categories, but frankly I think you can use your time better than that. In any case it is not a reason to postpone the implementation of this nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:56, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Utter nonsense, @Marcocapelle. The eample of Category:Afghan emigrants to the Czech Republic defines the articles as being about emigrants from a named Asian country to a named European county. Similarly, Category:Australian emigrants to Malaysia defines the articles as being about emigrants from a named country in Oceania to a named Asian county
      The proposed merges will lose that continent data.
      It's kinda scary to see that denied when such a large set of merges is proposed. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:26, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • That is utter nonsense. There is no diffusion by continent in this tree. Period. The fact that you happen to know that a country is located in a continent does not change that fact. I.e. your claim that this proposal leads to loss of continent data does not make any sense. One can't lose what does not exist. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:13, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        @Marcocapelle: please please please please please please please read what I wrote. I did not say that there was diffusion by continent.
        Are you really really really really really really really really saying that the knowledge a country is located in a continent is some sort of rare insight possessed only by a few people with special talents? This is absurdistan.
        The simple fact is this nomination proposes to remove a lot of categories by country. Each of those categories relates to a continent. My objection is that if you are going to rip out the countries then the next available type of area is continent. The continent name can be objectively and unambiguously derived from the country name -- I have created templates to do that -- so of course the continent data exists.
        I really find it hard to believe that I am seriously having to debate such a simple point. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:02, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • Agree on the latter. I have never said rare or special, the only thing I say is it is non-existent in this category tree hence there is no loss of data. Again, I will not stop you if you want to add this data. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:40, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
          @Marcocapelle: for goodness sake, as I explained above, the data is already there. You want to discard that data.
          The fact that we don't currently have categories for emigrants by continent is irrelevant: Afghanisatan is in Asia regardless of whether there is a category. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:44, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think adding brand new continent categories to this tree would be fine and, since this country nom is silent on contents, it wouldn't go against any possible outcome of this CFD. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:43, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Adding continent categories after the merges would require re-assessing each of the hundreds of articles to re-add the continent data which has been lost. Much better to get the bot to do it as part of the merge, using the continent data from the existing category titles. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:33, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, that make sense. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're not wrong that this has a lot of participants compared to other recent nominations but, if you look at CFD 10 years ago, it's striking how much participation has dwindled. Wikimedia's decision to not display categories in the mobile view certainly accelerated that dropoff in participation. Having a smaller number of participants also means more inconsistent decisions are inevitable. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:36, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe because being an expatriate is far less defining than being an emigrant. Living in another country for a bit with the expectation of returning to one's home country at some point versus permanently moving to another country (and often acquiring citizenship). The two are often confused, but they are very different. Personally, I would delete all the expatriate cats as fairly pointless, but I would very much support retention of all the emigrant cats. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:49, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The way to bring back categories that were deleted per
    WP:SMALLCAT is to write/find 5 articles that belong in a category and boldly recreate it. These CFD discussions are based on anticipated article growth, and are always subject to correction by actual article growth. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:36, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    @RevelationDirect: please note that the nominator has offered precisely zero evidence or assessment of the growth potential of any of the 300 nominated categories. Zilch, nada, nothing.
    The nomination is based solely on the current size of the categories. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:10, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was replying specifically to Liz's thoughts about other categories outside this nom that had already been deleted, but that wasn't obvious since this is under a CFD nom. @Liz: I'm gonna collapse this important side conversation so it doesn't clutter the nom. - RevelationDirect (talk) 13:29, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure, but your observation also points to a huge deficiency in this nomination. The basis that you set for applying SMALLCAT has not been applied to any of these 300 categories. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:28, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And I'll note that more and more of these categories are being emptied every day during this CFD. If these categories are Kept, will they need to be repopulated? The script that indicates what articles or categories have been added or removed from a category typically just goes a few days back, not a few weeks so we might not have that data for very long. Since CFD discussions typically last longer than other deletion discussions, all of these categories could be emptied by the time this one gets closed! Liz Read! Talk! 01:36, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not it! I have not emptied any of these categories during this nom. - RevelationDirect (talk) 02:56, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Russian-speaking countries and territories

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename and purge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale:
Russian Federation, we need not list every single federal subject here (although for completeness' sake we might do so anyway). I'm also not sure if Russian was officially used in some historic states such as Ukrainian People's Republic
; the infobox suggests this was not the case, despite "widespread" unofficial use.
Note that this category is about law, the legal status of the Russian language per jurisdiction. It is not about where the Russian language is spoken (or written) by anyone (geography) or by how many people (demographics). The Category:Geographical distribution of the Russian language and its main article Geographical distribution of Russian speakers already serve that purpose / those purposes. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:36, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Danish-speaking countries and territories

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename and purge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:29, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Chinese-speaking countries and territories

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename and purge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, and recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:29, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
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Category:Cherokee-speaking countries and territories

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: Delete (non-admin closure) * Pppery * it has begun... 20:34, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, and recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:27, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Rename & Purge To avoid
    WP:SUBJECTIVECAT. Care should be taken with purging as different jurisdictions may make the language "official" in different ways. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:50, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Delete. The relevant tribes already appear under Category:Cherokee and the reservation is under the appropriate subcat. The three tribes also conduct all business in English (unlike the Navajo Nation which requires its president to be a Navajo language speaker). The cat includes an organization, a state, a former territory, and a reservation; so mostly neither countries nor territories (one exception). Indian Territory never had an official language and was home to innumerable tribes. Oklahoma has a (really crappy) English as Unifying Language law, so Cherokee is assuredly not an official language in the state. This category is unhelpful and inaccurate; it's basically fantasizing. Yuchitown (talk) 15:54, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]
    Interesting, I did not know that. Then perhaps deletion is a better option indeed. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:55, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm open to deletion as well. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:33, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Bulgarian-speaking countries and territories

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename and purge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, and recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:26, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
@RevelationDirect did you miss this one? Seems like you left identical comments under each nom but skipped this one. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:39, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I did miss it. - RevelationDirect (talk) 09:56, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename & Purge To avoid
    WP:SUBJECTIVECAT. Care should be taken with purging as different jurisdictions may make the language "official" in different ways. - RevelationDirect (talk) 09:56, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Bengali-speaking countries and territories

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename and purge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, and recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:25, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Balochi-speaking countries and territories

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename and purge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, and recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:24, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Avar-speaking countries and territories

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename and purge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, and recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:23, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Arabic-speaking countries and territories

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename and purge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale:
WP:C2C parent Category:Countries and territories by official language, recently renamed siblings about German, Greek, Portuguese, Azerbaijani, Hungarian, Somali, and Tamil. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:21, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Broadcasters from from Cork (city)

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: procedural close: category has already been speedily deleted (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 17:31, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Only one preposition needed Certes (talk) 14:02, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:13th-century rulers of Monaco

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 2#Category:13th-century rulers of Monaco

Category:Monarchs of the Hebrew Bible

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 2#Category:Monarchs of the Hebrew Bible

Category:Gun politics by country

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete, merge, and purge as prescribed by nom.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:34, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: "Gun politics" is a US-centric term, and does not describe any actual political movement or ideology in most other countries. Almost all of these categories were set up as parents of mass-shooting categories, which is inappropriate as mass shootings are not regarded as a political issue over gun ownership outside of the United States, as far as I'm aware. These subcats should all be purged. Other than that, Group B contain only a handful of categories that are about gun laws (not politics), and should be merged to the respective Law of Foo categories. Group C contain some articles that aren't specifically about gun laws. They should be pruned and the remaining articles recategorised under Firearms in Foo or something similar. Note that I have not touched the Australia category, in addition to (obviously) the United States. --Paul_012 (talk) 09:48, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please allow some time while I build the CfD nom and tag the subcats. Done. --Paul_012 (talk) 10:06, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per well-researched rationale of nom. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:28, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    PS: as mass shootings are not regarded as a political issue over gun ownership outside of the United States, as far as I'm aware. This may not be entirely true; it definitely was the reason for tight gun control in Australia after the 1996 Port Arthur massacre (Australia). It may also apply to Gun control in Brazil, though that article needs to be updated as noted already. For other countries you are probably right, e.g. in Switzerland, gun ownership has a strong correlation with suicide, though not with homicide, let alone mass shootings. People advocating for less gun ownership usually do so to reduce suicide rates, not because they are particularly concerned over mass shootings (although I can vividly remember the 2001 Zug massacre causing a lot of political debate over gun ownership). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 17:45, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, the articles are about law, not about politics. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:42, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:20th century in philosophy

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename and merge as in alt proposal.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:32, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: Duplicate category, no other centuries in philosophy exist in this format. (t · c) buidhe 04:04, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, sounds grammatically erroneous as well. Okiyo9228 (talk) 05:57, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is the other century categories that should be renamed, consistent with other topics by century trees. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:17, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Support Alt renaming per Marcocapelle, "18/19/20th century philosophy" doesn't have any special meaning in the field, we should follow the convention of the other trees. - car chasm (talk) 03:43, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alt proposal:
I will tag these categories as well. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:09, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It’s been a week or so; how long does it take to move it. Okiyo9228 (talk) 16:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Wikipedians who feel disappointed with WMF

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:31, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: WMF is short for "Wikimedia Foundation", "with Wikimedia Foundation" is ungrammatical. I considered listing this for C2A, but I doubted if this consituted an obvious error. CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 03:08, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
True. Added as an alternative. CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 15:56, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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