Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 30

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March 30

Category:1909 in sports in Maine

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. – Fayenatic London 20:36, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Each year in sports in Maine category contains a redirect to Maine Black Bears football, 1892–1899 or Maine Black Bears football, 1900–1909, which are both already categorized in the decade in sports in Maine categories. Merge all to year in Maine category. –Aidan721 (talk) 22:26, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:30, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per nom. The 1890s teams were remarkably unsuccessful.
    Oculi (talk) 13:55, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Bulgarian Empire

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:34, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: dabify/merge, there aren't any reliable sources that treat the First Bulgarian Empire and the Second Bulgarian Empire as one continuous empire. They were separated by more than 150 years. This is follow-up on this earlier discussion about the article. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:17, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose: Both empires were the same country. Sometimes countries fall and are reborn again which does not mean that they are not the same. They were called Bulgarian Empire/Tsardom or simply Bulgaria during their existence. "First" and "Second" are just later clarification for the purpose of nomenclature; the name of the country was the same both in the period 681-1018 and 1185-1396. While there were more than 150 year apart between the two, it was still the same state. The founders of the second empire considered themselves successors of the first one; the first emperor of the second empire even renamed himself Peter, after the first fully recognised Bulgarian emperor. Diluting the well-established and very clear structure of the current categorisation in the way suggested above is counter productive and would by no means ease the readers of Wikipedia. --Gligan (talk) 20:02, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Siddur of Orthodox Judaism

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
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The result of the discussion was: rename to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:34, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: The plural of
siddurim. One siddur, two siddurim. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 15:09, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
  • rename per nom. An alternative would be Prayer books of Orthodox Judaism which is more accessible language wise.
~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 17:13, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Stuttering Foundation Presidents

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: delete.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:35, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: Per
WP:NONDEF. User:Namiba 14:02, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Both are now in Category:Stuttering.--User:Namiba 18:57, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Mohels

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: rename to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:35, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: A
mohelet is a woman. The Hebrew plural of "mohel" is "mohalim" (which includes both men and women), while the feminine plural is mohalot. To avoid sexist language and to use the proper Hebrew pluralization, we should change the name of this category. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 14:00, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Giving Pledgers

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: delete.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:35, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: Categorization by a
non-defining characteristic. User:Namiba 13:10, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Categories of recipients of orders of merit

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: No consensus for en bloc deletion; closed without prejudice to individual nominations of specific categories Timrollpickering (talk) 09:19, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
23 other categories up for deletion

Category:Recipients of the Legion of Honour
Category:Recipients of the Order of Merit (Lebanon)
Category:Recipients of the Order of Merit of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg
Category:Recipients of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Hungary
Category:Recipients of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Poland
Category:Order of Civil Merit members
Category:Recipients of the Decoration for Services to the Republic of Austria
Category:Recipients of the National Order of Merit (Malta)
Category:Recipients of the Order "For Merit to the Fatherland"
Category:Recipients of the Order of Merit (Egypt)
Category:Recipients of the Order of Merit (Jamaica)
Category:Recipients of the Order of Merit (Portugal)
Category:Recipients of the Order of Merit of Malaysia
Category:Recipients of the Order of Merit of the Italian Republic
Category:Recipients of the Order of Military Merit (France)
Category:Recipients of the Order of the Crown (Italy)
Category:Recipients of the Order of Work Glory
Category:Recipients of the Ordre de la Santé publique
Category:Recipients of the Ordre des Arts et des Lettres
Category:Recipients of the Ordre des Palmes Académiques
Category:Recipients of the Ordre national du Mérite
Category:Recipients of the Pour le Mérite
Category:Members of the Order of Merit

Nominator's rationale: All nondefining awards: I checked several recipients and found no indication that the award is ever defining for any recipient. The Category:Recipients of the Order Pro Merito Melitensi (see discussion about its deletion here) was deleted on this ground, hence for coherence, categories of recipients of other orders of merit should follow, unless the category for Recipients of the Order Pro Merito Melitensi is reinstated accordingly, or another coherent rule is provided. Baronnet (talk) 12:32, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Moral support for deletion while it is certainly the case that very few if any of these awards are defining to most notable recipients, such a large bundled nomination is likely to be a trainwreck. (t · c) buidhe 16:56, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:36, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, Baronnet (talk · contribs) what is the defining award for you? The fact that someone has received an order of merit of a particular country is, in my opinion, defining for his activities. After all, we are talking about very exclusive awards, given to a maximum of 100-200 people a year. And the highest class literally a few people a year. Marcelus (talk) 07:27, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    "Defining", according to this very debatable criterion of the English Wikipedia only (other language-versions of Wikipedia are more flexible) meant to fight "overcategorization" (i.e. too many categories for each article), signifies essentially a quality that would be mentioned in the lead section of the article. For example : the lead section of the article about Sylvester Stallone mentions that he is an American actor and filmmaker (so these categories are OK), not that he is an Officer of the Order of Arts and Letters (so although he indeed received this honour, this category is not OK, according to the English Wikipedia rule). I feel this rule is too stringent, and I agree that these awards are exclusive, but if this rule is applied stringently to delete "Category:Recipients of the Order Pro Merito Melitensi", it should be applied to all categories for recipients of orders of merit, which are never the main defining characteristic for the persons who receive them. It is rather a consequence of other defining characteristics. See these pages : Wikipedia:Defining and Wikipedia:Overcategorization. I have not been able to find when and where this rule was created, and where it can be debated. Baronnet (talk) 14:51, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, but following this line of thought, we should remove all categories related to any awards or decorations, except for completely exceptional ones. Besides, for some characters, receiving a decoration is one of the prerequisites for
    WP:ANYBIO
    ).
    It cannot be considered a priori that Orders of Merit, are undefining; for someone they may be, for someone else they may not. What about categories [[[Category:Alumni by university or college]], they are rarely defining, does that mean they should be removed? Marcelus (talk) 15:02, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    As absurd as it may seem, given the "defining" criterion, you are right: they should be removed too. Or the rule should be relaxed (given this stringent rule, the English Wikipedia will loose many of its categories: you will need to go to other language versions of Wikipedia to be able to find these "nondefining" but often useful categories). I would like to find the discussion from which this criterion emerged, but I have not found it. Baronnet (talk) 15:31, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • "we should remove all categories related to any awards or decorations, except for completely exceptional ones" -> indeed, that is what
      WP:OCAWARD says too. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:32, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
      ]
    By the way, there is no logical contradiction between the fact that the category is deemed nondefining, and the fact that an order of merit is a criterion of notability. The deletion of the category has no impact on the corpus of the article, which will still mention honours and awards. The projet page Wikipedia:Defining deals with the difference between these concepts: "Often, users can become confused between the standards of notability, verifiability, and "definingness". Notability is the test that is used to determine whether a topic should have its own article. This test, combined with the test of verifiability, is used to determine whether particular information should be included in an article about a topic. Definingness is the test that is used to determine whether a category should be created for a particular attribute of a topic. In general, it is much easier to verifiably demonstrate that a particular characteristic is notable than to prove that it is a defining characteristic of the topic. In cases where a particular attribute about a topic is verifiable and notable but not defining, or where doubt exists, creation of a list article is often the preferred alternative". The result is that the English Wikipedia prefers lists to categories. I personally prefer the opposite, but I cannot go alone against consensus... Baronnet (talk) 15:46, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Exactly, most awards reflect pre-existing fame but do little to expand fame. That makes them great for establishing notability of an article (yup, they're famous) but they're not defining (they were already famous). - RevelationDirect (talk) 11:00, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. When one considers that Pour le Mérite or the Legion of Honour are not defining awards, it's a sign the overreaching is a bit too large. I think you missed Category:Recipients of the Victoria Cross and Category:Recipients of the Medal of Honor. Place Clichy (talk) 20:38, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Victoria Cross and Medal of Honor where not listed in the category of recipients of orders of merit, so I did not include them within the scope of nomination. And they could be distinguished from the nominated categories on two grounds:
    1. VC is often mentioned as postnominal, thus appearing in the lead section of articles, making in a defining trait according to the rule of thumb of Wikipedia:Defining ; this criterion is unsatisfactory, however, because it would save most British honours (mentioned as postnominals) while striking down honours of most other countries.
    2. VC and Medal of Honour cannot be compared, given their rarity (1355 and 3525 recipients in total since creation), with the Légion d'honneur which has been awarded roughly to 1 million (yes, 1 million) recipients since inception (source of the figure: Anne de Chefdebien et Bertrand Galimard Flavigny, La Légion d'honneur : un ordre au service de la Nation, Paris, Éditions Gallimard, Coll. Découvertes Gallimard, 2002, ISBN 9782070765256).
    So I don't think this can save the nominated categories, unless the criterion is relaxed for all orders of merit. Baronnet (talk) 22:59, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exactly per Place Clichy. The French Legion d'honneur and PLM are absolutely defining awards. No comment on the others because I haven't researched them.—S Marshall T/C 10:25, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Could you please provide a few examples where Légion d'honneur and PLM are characteristics mentioned in the lead section of the article about someone, which seems to be the "rule of thumb" according Wikipedia:Defining? Having never seen them mentioned as a main defining trait, but rather with other rewards at the end of articles, they rather seem to me to be non-defining, or if defining not in an absolute manner, but in relatively seldom occasions. Baronnet (talk) 22:47, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conceptually Favor Most/Procedurally Oppose The vast majority of award categories are not defining because they merely reflect rather than promote someone's fame. Most private awards just aspire for their award to be defining while many government awards are throw-away diplomatic trinkets for visiting dignitaries.
But there's nothing inherently defining or non-defining about an award have the word "merit" in it, or at least being translated that way. And this would leave the un-nominated subcategories behind (Portugal, Ukraine, etc.)- RevelationDirect (talk) 11:18, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would take the problem the other way round. These categories are non-defining, per Wikipedia:Defining: up to now, no one has proven that one or the other is indeed defining. Baronnet (talk) 23:04, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Italian art institutions

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:36, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: "Fooian art institutions" is unique category name in enwiki cat system Estopedist1 (talk) 12:21, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well if that's your rationale you should be merging TO "Italian art institutions", not FROM it to the other two. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:39, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per nom, it is an outlierish category. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:33, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge No conceptual objection to this category naming but it doesn't follow an established category tree name (
    WP:C2C). - RevelationDirect (talk) 05:55, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Historians of ancient China

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
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The result of the discussion was: merge to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:36, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: Merge, moving the single article J. A. G. Roberts only to that one parent as it makes no mention of antiquity. Note: I have removed a former sub-cat Category:Ancient Chinese historians (see also this CFD) which is by nationality/period lived rather than by area of study. – Fayenatic London 11:12, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Historians by country

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: option 1.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 02:34, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: Clarify the meaning of these categories, and make them consistent with parent categories including Category:Historians by field of study. – Fayenatic London 10:55, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option 1 has a clearer scope. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:24, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: we currently don't have a separate category for historians who studied former countries. Two of these are named "Scholars of X history" and are sorted at the top of the category. Others e.g. British Empire, Dutch Republic, are within the UK/Netherlands categories. I'm open to suggestions for a clear name to create a new cat, but "Historians by former country of study" sounds as if it's for people who stopped studying those countries. – Fayenatic London 11:44, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename and split per option 1, much clearer. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:49, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename and Split per option 1.
    William Allen Simpson (talk) 06:37, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename and Split per option 1. --
    WP:SOCKSTRIKE. ✗plicit 14:50, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Estonian Righteous Among the Nations

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: merge to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:37, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: Per
WP:SMALLCAT. This category has only 1 entry. Estopedist1 (talk) 09:05, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
WP:WTAF. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 21:45, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
No objection to recreating if those 5 articles materialize. - RevelationDirect (talk) 04:09, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Expatriates of the Netherlands

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
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The result of the discussion was: merge to
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:38, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: the same Skovl (talk) 08:38, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Undesirable organizations in Russia

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: speedy delete (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 18:58, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: I am writing to inform you that the list of organisations that the
Putin regime does not like, as requested by the prior CfD, has been implemented this morning, at Russian undesirable organizations law § Targeted organizations. I apologise for having to use archive.is: repeated attempts to save a snapshot via the Wayback Machine have been unsuccessful. --Minoa (talk) 07:29, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Yes, this is a follow-up notification that I have now implemented the "listify" decision with a suitable list sourced from the Ministry of Justice website, and thus the deletion of the category can now proceed. Sorry if I sounded unclear. --Minoa (talk) 14:43, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I believe this category qualifies for a
    G6 speedy deletion, in particular with template {{db-xfd}}: for pages where a consensus to delete has been previously reached via deletion discussion, but which were not deleted. V27t [ T • C ] 18:48, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Wikipedians interested in literature by genre

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 April 13#Category:Wikipedians interested in literature by genre

Category:Wikipedians interested in a franchise

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 April 13#Category:Wikipedians interested in a franchise

Category:Wikipedians interested in Slavism

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was: delete.
(non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:39, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Nominator's rationale: This originally came to my attention because there is no article on
advocacy category masquerading as a "interested in" category. * Pppery * it has begun... 04:17, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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