Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/John Barbirolli/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ucucha 03:38, 10 February 2012 [1].

John Barbirolli

John Barbirolli (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Tim riley (talk) 16:44, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This article is one of a series on British conductors on which I've worked, and having got

New York Philharmonic, and was a celebrated guest conductor in opera in Rome and in the concert hall in Berlin, but he is principally remembered as the conductor and saviour of the Hallé Orchestra in England. He was a great, occasionally eccentric, musician and he deserves a top-flight article, which I hope I have given him. Tim riley (talk) 16:44, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply
]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:48, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Be consistent in whether page ranges are abbreviated or not
  • No citations to Kennedy 2008
  • Be consistent in whether punctuation is linked or not, and whether commas appear inside or outside quotation marks in titles - for example, compare FNs 7 and 10
  • Check pagination on FN 37
  • Be consistent in how editors are notated
  • Don't repeat cited sources in External links. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:48, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All attended to, I think. Thanks as always for your sharp eyes. Tim riley (talk) 10:52, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support, with quibbles. I peer-reviewed this, but that was a while back and I have not looked at the article recently. I read it again with pleasure, but of course had to find a few things to niggle about:-

  • Second para of lead: Remove comma after "Born in London..." The first half of this paragraph is rather dense with "conductor/conducting" repetitions, which could perhaps be reduced by some slight rephrasing
  • Last sentence of lead: the "but" should be an "and" ("and was also admired..."
  • Shouldn't his baptismal names (Giovanni Battista) be mentioned in the lead intro? Otherwise an unaware reader might not realise that they are one and the same.
  • "Southampton Row is within the sound of Bow Bells, and Barbirolli always regarded himself as a Cockney." Sentence looks misplaced where it is. Suggest promote to second sentence of the paragraph.
  • I also suggest you look for instances of over-punctuation, e.g. in sentences such as: "His father, Lorenzo Barbirolli (1864–1928), was a violinist, who had settled in London with his wife, Louise Marie, née Ribeyrol (1870–1962)". (Five commas among 20 words)
  • His scholarship at Trinity College of Music is mentioned in passing, but not how or when he acquired it.
  • "regular playing partner Ethel Bartlett": Could you mention she was a pianist (if this be she).
  • "...with whom he made several early broadcasts." Can you clarify the subject of "whom"?
  • "Barbirolli's ambition remained to conduct". Perhaps "remained" is wrong here, since this ambition has not been mentioned until now.
  • I'm slightly puzzled by "Barbirolli also won warm praise from Pablo Casals, whom he had accompanied in Haydn's D major cello concerto at the same concert." The word "accompanied" does not seem apposite, if he was conducting. (see also a later point)
    • You and I have disagreed about this before. I maintain that the orchestral part of a concerto is referred to as a matter of course as the "accompaniment" (see opening para of the WP Concerto article), and you can see JB described as accompanying concertos in Bicknell's obituary tribute to him, here, or in Kennedy, p. 171, where JB firmly declines "to become a piano concerto accompanist". Tim riley (talk) 10:17, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The positioning of the two sentences relating to his marriage to Marjorie Perry is chronologically correct, but awkward. Consider if this could be arranged better.
    • I agree, but short of having a separate "Personal life" section, as I did for the Beecham article, I can't think where else to put this information. Unlike Beecham's, JB's personal life was not notable enough to run to a whole section of its own, I think. Tim riley (talk) 10:17, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a rough press campaign in New York from interested parties who wished to evict him from his post": I think this quotation should be attributed.
  • "In 1943 Barbirolli made another Atlantic crossing..." Can you clarify, e.g. "In 1943 Barbirolli flew back to England..."
    • I chose this phrasing rather carefully, because an exposition of the complete facts seemed to me to be rather wordy. JB crossed the Atlantic by ship to Portugal, and then went by plane from there to England. It was in Lisbon where Howard asked him to swap flights so that Howard could remain in Lisbon for a few days. According to some accounts, someone on Howard's flight bore a striking resemblance to Winston Churchill, which is why the Germans decided to shoot down a flight over a neutral country, but I cannot vouch for this. Tim riley (talk) 10:17, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Later he extended his teaching skills to the Royal Academy of Music..." Maybe replace "later" with a year?
  • "He found that mastering a Mahler symphony took between 18 months and two years..." Clarification necessary; maybe insert "him" between "took" and "between", since the statement is followed by a reference to "50 hours of rehearsal".
  • "Many of Barbirolli's pre-war recordings for HMV were of concertos. His reputation as an accompanist tended to obscure his talents as a symphonic conductor, and later, his detractors in New York "damned him with faint praise by exalting his powers as an accompanist and then implying that that was where it all stopped." Again, the use of the word "accompanist" confuses me in this section:. To me, an accompanist is a supporting player to a soloist, e.g. Gerald Moore; as such, Bruno Walter sometimes accompanied Kathleen Ferrier on the piano. I can't fit that understanding into the above; can you say in what sense Barbirolli was acting as an "accompanist" in these prewar HMV recordings?
  • Perhaps link, or better still describe, what is meant by an "Intendant". Otherwise it sounds like the person in charge of the cloakrooms.

These are not major matters, and I am sure you will have little difficulty disposing of them. Brianboulton (talk) 20:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much for the support, and for the comments, which I have acted on as noted above. We shall have to agree to differ over "accompanying" concertos, but for the other points I have followed up your suggestions. Tim riley (talk) 10:17, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I had forgotten our earlier colloquy on the meaning of "accompany" in musical parlance. My problem is with what I will call the "Walter–Ferrier question". Bruno Walter accompanied Kathleen Ferrier on the piano during song recitals, and also conducted the orchestra when she sang works such as Mahler's Rückert songs and Kindertotenlieder. There ought to be a way of distinguishing between these rather different activities; in the latter case the orchestra is accompanying the singer, the conductor is directing both. That, m'lud, is the essence of my case, but I am not pressing it. Brianboulton (talk) 14:59, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your magnanimity is much appreciated - thank you. Tim riley (talk) 15:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose and comprehensiveness. A few quibbles:

Lede
  • "seized the chance" Too dramatic for the lede, since you are not explaining at this time. You are also exactly duplicating the prose you use later, which I think is a bad idea.
Biography
  • Given his parentage, something should be said about his own nationality.
  • Date Otello's premiere
  • Although you do imply it in the lede, it may be worth mentioning his birth name early on.
  • "was to be absent in America," This sounds odd. Perhaps just say what he was doing across the pond.
  • " the other three were Elgar, Beecham and Pierre Monteux." This is clearly a great honour, then, judging by his fellows, I would move the information up in the sentence.
    • I take your point and have tussled mightily with this, but I can't find a way of mentioning the other three before JB without having the prose get complicated. I think I'll duck out and leave it as it is. – Tim riley (talk) 09:19, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Barbirolli's name was hardly known internationally" A little too flowery, I am afraid. Perhaps "Barbirolli was not well-known internationally".
    • Hmm. I have redrawn, but I want to get across how completely unknown JB was outside Britain. One of his biographers wrote: "Barbirolli's appointment was announced by the New York Philharmonic Society's directorial board on 7th April 1936. The musical world rubbed incredulous eyes. … In much newspaper comment the following day surprise verged on perplexity. Nobody had heard of John Barbirolli. … What sense was there in giving the New York Philharmonic to a man who had never been on an American front page before or, so far as could be made out, on any front page of moment anywhere?" I have added this as a footnote to make the point clearer. – Tim riley (talk) 09:19, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the spring of 1936, " This paragraph is a bit of a problem. As it delves further into the past it should probably be "had been confronted", etc.
  • "political lobbying" I would not disparage it with such a term. Concerns about Nazi Germany proved to be justified.
  • " the post should have been offered to "native conductors"" One post being divided among multiple native conductors reads oddly. I take it you want to keep the quote as colourful; perhaps "preference should have been given to "native conductors"
  • "Players and critics in Europe and the United States commented on the improvement in the playing of their orchestras when Barbirolli was in charge." Since the previous sentence can be read to limit Barbirolli's training to the Halle, this is jarring as the first hint that he was training outside the Halle.
  • "but he declined to be deflected from the Hallé" This seems a bit odd in phrasing.
  • "worked at " a plebeian phrase for his art, no?
  • "the Philharmonia" it is long since you mentioned them; consider a link.
  • "Barbirolli was appointed Conductor Laureate." If someone took over workaday conducting duties, I would say who. Additionally, it might be wise to mention that acceptance of such an appointment meant he was stepping back a bit.
  • "His last" Begins consecutive sentences in the penultimate paragraph of the bio section.
Honours

--Wehwalt (talk) 01:29, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks indeed for the support and the suggestions above, which I shall enjoy going through carefully tomorrow. Tim riley (talk) 18:42, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Now complete. I've adopted all your suggestions except one, which I can't find a smooth way of incorporating. Several of your suggestions have led to important improvements in the article, and I'm most grateful. – Tim riley (talk) 09:19, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support. As usual with a Tim riley article, this is a delight to read, as well as thoroughly researched, well illustrated and comprehensive. I also have a few minor suggestions, but ignore any of them with which you disagree:

  • Lead
I wonder if this information is important enough to be in the intro: "his father and grandfather were violinists".
Perhaps not, on reflection. I've removed. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The intro says: "in the 1950s he conducted productions of works by Verdi … at Covent Garden". Does this mean operas only, or other works also?
Operas only, but I drafted thus to avoid two "opera/operas" in one sentence. I think it's clear. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early years
"Barbirolli was born in … London…. He was a British national from birth". Aren't all children born in London British nationals from birth?
I don't know the legal position. I think (mind, I say I think) it was so in JB's day but is no longer so. I added this in response to an earlier FAC suggestion, and on balance I'm inclined to leave it in. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"I was scrubbing the floor in the Officers' Mess when they came and invited me to take over." I don't have a comment here, except, what a delightful story!
  • First conducting posts
"John Barbirolli's Chamber Orchestra". Did he continue to conduct this after he started at British National Opera Company?
It seems not. The biographical sources don't specify, but I've checked the concert listings in The Times, and "John Barbirolli's Chamber Orchestra" is not mentioned after 1928. However, that's not proof positive, and I'm chary of making an unqualified statement. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Barbirolli had never conducted a chorus or a large orchestra". We just said that, in 1924, he established the Guild of Singers – was this a union? Why did he do this if he never conducted a chorus?
The Guild was a group set up to allow its (soloist) members to give joint concerts. There wasn't a chorus. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"He made his operatic début. … made his début at the Royal Opera House…" I thought prev. FA discussions had indicated not to use the accent over the word debut?
They did indeed. I may have been sabotaged by the spell-check or alternatively have been in didactic mood when drafting. Now purged of its accent. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"He conducted a Royal Philharmonic Society concert at which Ralph Vaughan Williams was presented with the society's Gold Medal". Is Vaughan Williams's receiving this medal really of interest in this article?
The medal is Britain's highest musical honour, and there is considerable reflected glory in being the conductor at the concert at which the medal is awarded. For one so new to conducting as JB, this was a big feather in his cap. By a rather pleasing symmetry, when JB was awarded the medal in the 1950s it was presented to him by Vaughan Williams. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"The marriage was unsuccessful and within four years the two were living apart." Do we know that it was a thoroughly bad marriage? It lasted longer than many show-biz marriages. I would cut the first five words, unless we are saying that they quarrelled throughout the marriage. Also, we need a comma before "and".
Good point. I have moved the statement about living apart to the following section to sit alongside the divorce and remarriage. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"the musical world was taken by surprise in 1936 when he was invited to conduct the New York Philharmonic Orchestra…" Passive voice? Also, shouldn't this go in the next section?
I don't think making this active mood improves it: "It took the musical world by surprise…." As to placing, I tried this above and below the break, and it seemed to me that the prose and the narrative flow better with this sentence before the section break. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • New York Philharmonic
"In 1939, Barbirolli married the British oboist Evelyn Rothwell. The marriage lasted for the rest of Barbirolli's life." Of course! Have you ever done it with an oboeist?
"I was longing to return and it was just a question…" We need a comma before the "and".
It's a quote, and not my prose to tinker with, I'm afraid. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hallé Orchestra
The image of Free Trade Hall is less than exciting and is the fourth image in a row of a building. How about an image of Charles Hallé or Malcolm Sargent or the rather more exciting image of Albert Hall, moving the Hallé programme image higher (even though it's mentioned further down)?
True enough about the image. Hallé would be possible, and I'll experiment with how he looks there. There isn't a free image of Sargent, and I can't see how fair use would wash for using him here. The Albert Hall wasn't really core to JB's activities, and I don't think an image of that would be appropriate. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"He retained his reputation for training orchestras: after Barbirolli's death…" How about, "Barbirolli retained his reputation …: after his death…"
Yes, done. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Barbirolli received invitations to take up more prestigious and lucrative conductorships. … LSO, BBC…" Did he reject these offers? We note that he declined to be wooed away from the Hallé, but it may not be crystal clear.
Good. Amended. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Honours, awards and memorials
I made some minor proofreader's changes.
Thank you for them. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Repertoire and recordings
"Barbirolli's repertoire was not as wide…" This may be a cross-pond issue, but I would say "broad" rather than "wide". But I think "wide range", in the last section, is ok.
I think it must indeed be a UK-v-US thing. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pre-war
"The same year, he began his long association with the His Master's Voice label…" Should we add the short form "(HMV)" right after the full name?
We should. Now done. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1943 and later
"including many recordings still in the catalogues in 2010." Can you update this to 2012 or at least 2011? -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I've checked the EMI catalogue, and the recordings mentioned are still listed. (Unsurprisingly, as I gather they have always been good sellers.) Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for the support, and for the interesting points above. I shall enjoy working through them over the weekend. Tim riley (talk) 18:27, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Now done. All suggestions adopted, except where noted above. I'll experiment with the images as suggested. I'm most grateful for your support and comments. Tim riley (talk) 10:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Made one follow-up suggestion above. Again, congratulations on a super article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:41, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Spot checks

I think all but one of these points can readily be covered from available sources, which I will look out. The exception is the quote about playing everywhere but in the street. It's a good quote and I'd like to keep it in, but where did I get it from if not the ODNB? I'll search and report back. Tim riley (talk) 14:09, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Here? (pdf)
talk) 15:22, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply
]
Thank you very much for that! I have a dim memory of another, more expansive source, but the RAM site is splendidly authoritative and will do very well if I can't find the other one among my rough notes. Tim riley (talk) 19:46, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I still can't discover where I got that quote from originally, but it's in the memoirs of JB's widow, Evelyn Rothwell, and I've cited it to that. All other missing refs now in place, I think. Tim riley (talk) 14:03, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Media review

Support. This is an informative and highly readable article which should grace the home page in both content and style. I have a few queries:

  • I couldn't see any reference to his wife Evelyn's 2002 book 'Life with Glorious John: a portrait of Sir John Barbirolli'. I think it deserves inclusion in the list of sources.
    • I have killed two birds with one stone. My original draft was found deficient in citations, and Lady B's memoirs have been an excellent source for remedying that dereliction. It is, moreover, a charming work, and throws light on several points, not least why Downes was so prejudiced against JB. Tim riley (talk) 14:03, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Personally, I would like to see a little more shed on his family background. For example, according to Evelyn, both his father and his grandfather played as violinists in the first performance of Otello at La Scala. She says "John often told me how much he learnt from his father about the tempi and interpretation of Verdi's music, and about other Italian composers of opera, including Puccini." Although Barbirolli's mother ("always known as Mémé") came from Archaeon near Bordeaux, they apparently always spoke Venetian in the family.
  • A small point: In the fifth paragraph of the 'Hallé orchestra' subsection, the statement "Barbirolli's interest in new music waned in post-war years" seems to me to require some external support. I appreciate the point that the new works programmed by Barbirolli at this stage of his career were written in "a mostly traditional [viz tonal?] style". But so, it could be argued, were those of the composers listed in the third paragraph of the 'New York Philharmonic' subsection. MistyMorn (talk) 15:22, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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