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Putin

Not an error, but "

I'd have thought arrest warrant is a common-enough term that it doesn't require linking to aid reader understanding. Also, the linked article has no mention of the ICC's arrest warrants, the whole content is a breakdown of specific countries only.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:41, 17 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Wouldn't insist, but I'd say "arrest warrant" isn't as common as e.g. "arrest", "police" or "president" in terms of

WP:NOTDIC. Brandmeister^talk 21:55, 17 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply

]

Should definitely say alleged abduction of children per BLPCRIME and probably call the "official" who she officially is (if space is the worry, remove "Russian president", since everyone knows who Putin officially is). I'm not saying say "Presidential Commissioner for Children's Rights in the Russian Federation". Just "children's rights commissioner" (and "Russian" is already clear). InedibleHulk (talk) 00:23, 18 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The wording definitely should be changed. Reuters has it as for the illegal deportation, I cant find the actual arrest warrant on the ICC site yet, but their news release said the Pre-Trial Chamber has confirmed that there are reasonable grounds to believe that President Putin and Ms Lvova-Belova bear criminal responsibility for the unlawful deportation and transfer of Ukrainian children from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation, contrary to article 8(2)(a)(vii) and article 8(2)(b)(viii) of the Rome Statute. I dont think we should be using the word abduction in our blurb as the crime, and if we are going to name the crime then actually use its name, that being the unlawful deportation and transfer of children, or follow Reuters and say illegal deportation. nableezy - 05:45, 18 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I don't have the full warrants (does anyone?), but the ICC is pretty clear with the specific counts in that statement they put out. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 06:25, 18 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

nableezy, I suggest you bring this issue up on the talk page of the article first. Any hook should reflect what the article says. Schwede66 07:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That doesnt seem like a good time tbh, but our main page should not be making a claim about a living person being charged with abducting children when that is not the charge. nableezy - 15:42, 18 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Good catch, this isn't the sort of "child abduction" most civilians are aware of, where simple napping is enough reason to be arrested, international psychological genocide operation or no. My "definitely" was more aimed at "allegedly". "Alleged illegal deportation" is fair. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That viii is "taking of hostages", if anyone's interested (if so, "alleged hostage-taking"). InedibleHulk (talk) 08:10, 18 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No, the relevant viii is in section 8.2.b, not 8.2.a.

The transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory;

Note that none of these sections talk specifically about children. And when when you look at the full list of war crimes – torture, great suffering, extensive destruction, &c. – it's not clear why they have focussed only on the transfer issue when that seems comparatively benign. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That makes sense, I was wondering why I hadn't heard ransom demands, thanks for correcting. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:15, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

When it's already on the main page, someone should work on improving the linked articles, as they provide absolutely no detailed information about why both are charged. Maria Lvova-Belova's personal life section reads Lvova-Belova has been married to Pavel Kogelman, a priest of the Russian Orthodox Church and formerly a programmer, since 2003. They have five biological and eighteen adopted children. The former were born in 2005, 2007, 2010, 2014 and 2018. In February 2023, she adopted a 15-year-old boy from Mariupol, which caused controversy due to the concurrent abductions., which makes her a rescuer rather than a criminal. Very absurd.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:19, 18 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Mentioning the concurrent abductions strongly implies she's a criminal to me. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:09, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

She's not a rescuer. Mariupol is occupied territory and no Russian should be adopting anyone from there. 331dot (talk) 10:58, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

On the neutral side, there are two possibilities. Firstly, the children are being illegally adopted by Russians in order to be Russified because, according to the Russian law of adopting foreign children, there has to be a permit by their home country (in this case, Ukraine). Secondly, an exception is made to violate the law in a state of war so that the children are brought away from the risky areas. There's absolutely nothing that indicates which of these two is the case. How would someone reading the article know that Russians cannot adopt children from Ukraine without a permit if that's not written anywhere?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:21, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The official Russian position would presumably be that, as they claim to have annexed these territories, the population is Russian and so it's an internal matter. Putin doesn't seem to recognise Ukraine as a country at all – that's the main point of the war. All such issues are a part of the war which we have as Ongoing. And the latest news today is that Putin is visiting Mariupol. There's news about Putin every day, it seems. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:04, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Putin can argue his position at his trial(which is 99% likely to never happen, I know, as does the ICC). Our job is to describe what the sources say, which we do in Child abductions in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine; "During the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russia forcibly transferred thousands of Ukrainian children to areas it controls, assigned them Russian citizenship, forcibly adopted them into Russian families, and created obstacles for reunification with their parents or homeland". If this is wrong, then that needs to be taken up on the article talk page. 331dot (talk) 13:23, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The blurb doesn't say Russia did anything, rather that the ICC served two BLPs warrants for abducting children. That is, those two are child abductors and this is what they get. The article is wrong on more levels, and that's also a problem, but this blurb is still wrong on quite a few. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:15, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

• There is now an article about the warrants themselves, ICC arrest warrants for Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova, that could be worked into this blurb. 331dot (talk) 16:51, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  My preference is that the merge discussion come to a conclusion first. Schwede66 19:17, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  Either way, the blurb has to be fixed. The arrest warrant is not for the abduction of children, it is for the transfer of civilians from occupied territory. This is a V failure and a BLP failure, and seemingly the only reason it is still on the freaking main page is because we really don't like Putin. nableezy - 04:05, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  And really don't care to know nor care if we hurt Lvova-Belova. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:18, 20 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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