Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 393

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

What best describes The Economist's news coverage of transgender topics?

• Option 1: Generally
  reliable
  for factual reporting
• Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
• Option 3: Generally
  unreliable
  for factual reporting
• Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be
  deprecated

gnu57 13:35, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Addition:

• Option X: This RfC is not presented in such a manner as to encourage informed discussion, and should be closed procedurally.

-- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 13:57, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Further down, you say that the RFC question should contain arguments against option 1 (Any RfC on this question should contain, at a minimum, a summary of reasons people have objected to the use of The Economist on trans topics). That would violate

WP:RFCST, and is in no way a reason to close anything procedurally. The RFC was indeed started somewhat prematurely, but it'll stay open for weeks/a month or so, giving both sides plenty of time to offer new evience. DFlhb (talk

) 19:42, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

— Note: An editor has expressed a concern that editors have been canvassed to this discussion. (diff)

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Discussion (The Economist)

Instances where the factual accuracy of covetage of transgender issues in reporting by The Economist include this discusion. Newimpartial (talk) 19:40, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

This seems to be trying to get a simple answer to a complex question. Reliability on a single issue (such as transgender) is not necessarily determined at editorial level, and could be down to the columnist. Transgender issues vary over social, legal and medical matters. We already have

reliability of the author. -- Colin°^Talk

14:14, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Bias is not an issue. Slatersteven (talk) 15:25, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1. The Economist is well-regarded as a reliable source. No evidence has been provided that it is not.Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:53, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. This is clear. I mean no disrespect to OP but it would be great to close at least two of these RfCs that are bound to be uncontested and are taking up quite a bit of space for the same discussion to happen three times. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:21, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. Obvious and established. Andre🚐 19:33, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 2 - as I noted for the two broadsheets listed below, the OP appears to have presented these filings devoid of context or Talk notifications in order to achieve quick SNOW endorsements that they can use as a cudgel in Talk discussions. Editors familiar with the coverage of trans topics by these three outlets are aware of the ways all three have placed their news coverage in the service of political campaigns to limit or reverse trans rights. This is most certainly a case where additional considerations apply. Newimpartial (talk) 19:40, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Various editors in this discussion have apparently !voted on the RfC question without examining any evidence beyond their own perceptions of The Economist as a reliable source in general [2] [3] [4]

  This in spite of documentation that The Economist as having published "anti-trans screeds",[5] and has mischaracterised their own articles to discuss the "sterilisation" of trans people[6] on social media.

  A "gender critical" editorial line was pursued under the leadership of Helen Joyce, as has been documented in (RSN-green source) the Daily Dot in 2019. Outside of her work at The Economist, Joyce continued to pursue this approach in her controversial[7] book Trans, written while working for The Economist,[8], and that she now follows (while on leave from The Economist) as director of advocacy for sex matters, a group campaigning to protect the expression of "gender-critical" views.[9]

  Some editors have argued that bias is not an issue in source reliability.[10] However, the main point made in the policy section on

  WP:BIASEDSOURCES

  is that Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. I am not in any way disputing that The Economist is a reliable source for its own "gender critical" opinions on contemporary issues, but the concerns I am raising have nothing to do with the reliability of the magazine's coverage arise when it is elaborating its own "viewpoint" - they are all about claims made in avowedly factual news coverage. The assertion that because The Economist is generally respected for its factual coverage in other areas, that therefore this also applies to its coverage of transgender topics, seems to assume the conclusion that this filing is intended to assess.

  Some editors have argued that the issues identified by RS about coverage of transgender issues are confined to editorials, headlines, or statements attributed to sources. I have therefore come up with four examples to discuss, of claims that could be made (or have actually been proposed in WP article text; two of each). These claims refer only to statements made recently (2021-22) in the editorial voice of The Economist in news articles (only).

  The purpose of these examples is to evaluate whether or not The Economist is reliable for the statements in question and also whether or not it may be expressing the view of a

  WP:DUE for inclusion in WP articles. If one or both of these problems exist in these instances, I think it should be clear that a policy-based close of this filing cannot conclude that the magazine is generally reliable for its coverage of transgender topics (as the filer, who has advocate its use in one of the cases I am using as an example, had presumably hoped[11]

  ), but rather that additional considerations apply.

• Given these four examples, it seems clear to me that the policy-compliant conckusion is that additional considerations apply, given the repeated statements The Economist makes in its news coverage, in its own voice, that align with a tiny minority of FRINGE sources rather than the overwhelming

  WP:FALSEBALANCE article text in which the talking points The Economist shares only with FRINGE publications would be presented as an alternative reality alongside the consensus reality documented in the bulk of reliable sources. Newimpartial (talk) 22:02, 13 November 2022 (UTC) corrections by Newimpartial (talk

  ) 02:44, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Your first two examples are based on The Economist's use of the term "trans ideology/gender ideology". You state that there is a consensus that this does not exist. If it doesn't exist, there can be no reliable source saying that it influences anything. However, this is a challenge to the use of a term. Instead of/in addition to challenging the term, we should look at the things that it is said to consist of... according to the second Economist article, this is: "the Biden administration’s embrace of gender ideology, which holds that trans people should be recognised as the sex with which they identify". So, the question changes from "Is The Economist a reliable source for the statement that the Biden administration has embraced gender ideology?" to "Is The Economist a reliable source for the statement that the Biden administration has embraced the idea that trans people should be recognised as the sex with which they identify?" EddieHugh (talk) 23:25, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Well, I agree that The Economist could be used as a source for the latter statement, along with other more mainstream sources. But that wasn't my question. One characteristic of editors sympathetic to "gender-critical" positions in the GENSEX area is their insistence that the language of

WP:BIASEDSOURCES be retained in WP article text. As noted in my response to VickKiang below, one of the additional considerations I would like to see noted in the close is that the fact that The Economist often includes highly partisan language in its coverage of trans issues, language which should not be regarded as factual or presented in wikivoice. Your paraphrase here sidesteps what I regard as a critical concern. Newimpartial (talk

) 01:01, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

It's not my paraphrase; it's quoting The Economist. I generally oppose labelling when we can describe, but it's very popular here... I wouldn't advocate using "gender ideology" merely because a reliable source uses it, but I also wouldn't oppose using a description of (part of) the same thing from a reliable source. For me, the fact that a source uses both a label and a description doesn't make it unreliable. As editors, we can use judgement in deciding what from a reliable source is best to use, for the benefit of readers. EddieHugh (talk) 18:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Typically in the GENSEX area editors insist that the "facts", the "labels", the "opinions" and the salience of inclusions are all based on the sources used. What I am saying is that in cases where The Economist includes facts, labels and opinions that may correspond to those used in FRINGE sources but are not found in other reliable sources, that these should not be regarded as salient (and in the case of labels, that they should not be employed in wikivoice). Newimpartial (talk) 18:29, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

The third one: they quote people from the two groups that you mention, and the head of the drafting committee: "This is a professional organisation of people who all adhere to the Hippocratic oath." The article might not be 100% balanced, but what is factually inaccurate? The proposed use that you link to is: "Should the article mention the controversy over the Eunuch chapter in SOC8?" Exactly what that proposes isn't clear to me. The article contains only two sentences that are specifically about a eunuch chapter... is anything in them incorrect? They describe it as "the most controversial chapter", which looks like opinion, so would have to be attributed if used; the quotation can be checked; leaving the website claim. EddieHugh (talk) 23:46, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

As I specified, The Economist specifies in its own voice, as an unattributed, factual statement, that the public launch ... was a mess. With a publication that is regarded as generally reliable for transgender topics, we would take this judgement at face value. Can we, for The Economist, particularly given their selection of voices used to support this characterisation? With a generally reliable source, we would assume that the content of those sentences about the Eunuch chapter (the topic the WPATH page editors were aiming to include) is factually accurate, but is it safe to assume that concerning statements of fact that are not made in other

WP:RS? The assumption that The Economist must be reliable on these topics because it is reliable on non-trans related topics seems to me to be circular and unconvincing, given the well-established biases of the source. Newimpartial (talk

) 01:09, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Is describing something as "a mess" a statement about facts? It's an opinion, which is immediately followed by an explanation: "they originally included a list of minimum ages for treatments—14 for cross-sex hormones, 15 for removal of breasts, 17 for testicles. Hours later, a 'correction' eliminated the age limits. The head of the drafting committee, Eli Coleman, said the publisher went ahead 'without approval' before final changes were made." That's a statement about facts. Is it inaccurate? EddieHugh (talk) 18:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

As I noted above, typically in the GENSEX area editors insist that the "facts", the "labels", the "opinions" and the salience of inclusions are all based on the sources used. What I am saying is that in cases where The Economist includes facts, labels and opinions that may correspond to those used in FRINGE sources but not in other reliable sources, that these should not be regarded as salient (and in the case of labels, that they should not be employed in wikivoice). This is the nature of the "additional considerations" I would like to see noted in the close. Newimpartial (talk) 18:31, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps we should instead reconsider if the other sources are actually FRINGE? Sorry, this really does come across as trying to argue to a conclusion that is preferred vs following the sources. Springee (talk) 21:23, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

That's a good idea. See below. Newimpartial (talk) 22:12, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Thomas Johnson, the lead author of the eunuch chapter, also recently co-authored this journal article about the Eunuch Archive website. Table 1 ("Various forms of voluntary and involuntary genital ablations in the top 100 Eunuch Archive stories") confirms the Economist's claim that the site hosts stories about castrating boys against their will. gnu57 02:22, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't have access to the journal article in question: what is the passage that supports stories about castrating boys against their will? Or course, if the scholarly source does confirm this,

WP:V is satisfied without consulting The Economist... Newimpartial (talk

) 02:36, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: It's a table, so there's no directly quotable passage, but Table 1 says that 34/100 of the top stories on the website contain "involuntary ablations" of minors where "ablation" refers to any kind of genital removal. In terms of specifically castration (orchiectomy), 24/100 of the top stories on the website include an involuntary castration of a minor. The reason why one might wish to use The Economist over that journal article is because The Economist is a secondary source, while that journal article is a primary source written by someone involved with the guidelines. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:48, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

While I'm not going to pose as an expert in sadomasochistic erotica, it is precisely the move from the table's involuntary to The Economist's against their will that I am questioning here. And given that no other sources appear to back up the interpretation offered by The Economist, we have reason to doubt that the journalist's expertise in this area is any stronger than mine. So I actually think this remains an excellent example of a case where we should not simply defer to the magazine's overall reputation in assessing it as a source. Newimpartial (talk) 18:56, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: Nobody is expecting you to be an expert in sadomasochistic erotica, but it's generally expected that editors on Wikipedia will know basic linguistic concepts such as the idea of a synonym. Here is a link to a dictionary that defines "involuntary" as an adjective meaning Acting or done without or against one's will. [26] The Economist using words you do not understand does not make it an unreliable source. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:18, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

My understanding is that in this context the terms are not necessarily synonyms. To use an analogy: compulsory military service is "involuntary", but being press-ganged is "against one's will". Please do not condescend to me with phrases like using words you do not understand when I am trying to have a

WP:CIVIL discussion about specific meanings; I find it unhelpful. Newimpartial (talk

) 21:34, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: Your understanding of the English language should be cited to reliable sources. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 22:23, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. I am a linguistic pragmatist, with the result that I don't find appeals to dictionaries especially helpful. Newimpartial (talk) 22:28, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: By that logic, I can easily get any source rated as unreliable at RSN by redefining words in my own head so that the source is now wrong. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:36, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

But redefining words in my own head is pretty much the opposite of linguistic pragmatism. What we do is pay attention to how words are used in specific contexts, and there can be a significant semantic difference between "involuntarily" and "against one's will" - in spite of what some dictionaries might say. Newimpartial (talk) 21:14, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Most of these arguments rely on: "well, The Economist covered this, but some other outlets didn't"; which is a fantastic argument for not downgrading The Economist's reliability so all credible arguments can be represented fairly. The Economist typically extensively quotes subject-matter experts in their trans coverage, and I find all these articles credible; though obviously we can all disagree with credible articles and have our own perspectives.

• Your source for "anti-trans screed" comments on an op-ed.
• You link to a Daily Dot article about Helen Joyce; I already debunked that she has anything to do with the Economist's trans coverage. Again, she was a Finance editor. And her book had nothing to do with the Economist.

Now onto the sources:

1. The Economist argues that gender ideology has distorted U.S. medical education, to the detriment of patients, including trans people. They present several arguments, good evidence, quotes from students and doctors (including trans doctors) who agreed, and criticizes dehumanizing language in textbooks. I see no bias or factual inaccuracies. The fact that you disagree with them doesn't make them fringe. Of the so-called experts you point to, who argue that "gender ideology" is a myth, most of them self-describe as activists, and none of them are medical experts who would be qualified to discuss what the Economist is talking about. It kind of proves the Economist's point, and to me, shows why it must not be downgraded so that all credible viewpoints can be correctly represented on Wikipedia. I don't see the piece as biased at all; it makes its case well.
2. Here again, the argument relies on "gender ideology" being a conspiracy theory, when the Economist is talking about concrete policy steps. It's a purely semantic argument, with its critics taking it to mean something different than what The Economist uses it for. The argument that medicine has become politicized is a perfectly valid one; not a biased one.
3. I see nothing wrong with the piece on the Eunuch passage; it seems perfectly factually accurate. The groups you call fringe are correctly described as advocacy groups by The Economist; and they include the WPATH's response, which seems fair.
4. I'm not considering whether it's due; merely whether it's factually accurate and non-ideologically biased. Marci Bowers's response did not pointed to clear inaccuracies or bias; yes, her comments were truncated, but that's universal to every single newspaper interview. In this case, it didn't seem like cherry-picking. I see zero issues here.

I find it hard to conclude that the Economist should be categorized as biased, without us also needing to categorize practically all LGBT-focused sources as biased (since many of their writers, again, self-describe as activists). I think that would be highly unwise, and would make for worse coverage in trans article, and would support the status quo here. Moreover, since the Economist's pieces are well-researched and argued, I think a downgrade would be highly detrimental to our coverage on trans topics, and would lead to widespread

WP:NPOV violations. That doesn't mean we must only use The Economist! But trying to downgrade it to avoid these necessary talk page discussions would be inappropriate. DFlhb (talk

) 01:00, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

DFlhb, why do you regard this Adcocate piece as an op-ed?

Also, your claim to have debunked that (Joyce) has anything to do with the Economist's trans coverage is flatly contradicted by the Daily Dot RS, which links a number of articles published under her byline. Perhaps you might read that one again, with less implicit confidence in your own prior assumptions?

Concerning your other claims:

1. Are you claiming that "gender ideology" actually exists, and is shown in RS to do so? Your comment here appears to reverse Wikipedia's

WP:RS

hierarchy that puts peer-reviewed publications and experts ahead of general and self-published sources.

2. Once again, you are siding with The Economist against the great bulk of scholarly and high-quality sources.

3. If you think an aricle that presents 80% of the response to the WPATH through the perspective of

WP:FRINGE

anti-trans advocacy groups is fair - well, I have to question your judgement about that one. The perspective of mainstream transgender health practitioners is entirely left out in The Economist's reporting.

4. If it didn't seem like cherry-picking to you, but it did seem that way to the interview subject, why should we take your opinion over that of the interview subject?

Finally, your claim that the Economist's pieces are well-researched and argued when they largely ignore the scholarly and professional consensus around transgender healthcare while amplifying the views of FRINGE cranks like Genspect and SEGM - well, I remain unconvinced of that one. The position that Wikipedia needs to platform FRINGE views to prevent widespread WP:NPOV violations does not meet with widespread community support, to the best of my knowledge. Newimpartial (talk) 01:32, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

The Advocate piece is news, but comments on an op-ed (labelled "By Invitation").

For the Daily Dot, that's precisely what I debunked. Not a single one of the articles were published under her byline. She wrote a fluff piece to conclude a series of op-eds (all "Open Future" articles are opinion pieces by contributing writers), all of which were written by others.

1. I'd agree if the scholars argued the same point as The Economist; but they merely argue that it's a harmful term (very reasonable argument); The Economist only uses it in the headline, but the article body is detailed about specific problems documented by medical students and doctors (I restate, including a trans doctor), and doesn't feel cherry-picked. Scholarly pieces on terminology have zero bearing on whether the Economist's arguments there are biased or misleading.
2. Same comment; there is no conflict between scholarly sources & The Economist, since the former aren't addressing what the latter is talking about.
3. That article's claims (that critics worry about the minimum age limit, overmedicalization, and reversibility) are factual, and I believe those criticisms are fringe within the broader medical community (though we may disagree with these views ourselves).
4. The interviewee restates her concerns over puberty blockers in her 'correction', far from walking them back; from my reading, it seemed like she made controversial statements, which she was presumably attacked for on social media, and was trying to lay the blame on the Economist, but I don't think that she ever repudiated the controversial things she said, which she confirmed she still believed. It seemed more like damage control. Indeed, Marci Bowers is still criticized in the trans community for those statements.

Cheers DFlhb (talk) 02:03, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Concerning Joyce, your description of her conclusion as a fluff piece completely understate s her role (and undermines her agency) in making the series happen in the first place. Also, I am getting tired of your false or partial statements:

1. The Economist only uses the concept of trans ideology in the headline - no, it is used twice in the article text, as I documented above.

2. there is no conflict between scholarly sources & The Economist, since the former aren't addressing what the latter is talking about. What is the difference between the "gender ideology" that The Economist presents as real and the "gender ideology" the RS describe as not being real?

3. Presumably you don't believe those criticisms are fringe within the broader medical community, but why? I found no non-FRINGE sources for any of them.

4. It seemed more like damage control - you never answered my question about why your interpretation is more credible than that of the interview subject; all you did was elaborate on your interpretation. Newimpartial (talk) 02:22, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Also, I meant to point out that your description of James Cantor and other Genspect devotees as subject-matter experts strikes me as hilarious, clueless and contemptible all at once. Newimpartial (talk) 03:38, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I expected you'd misread my comment or place words in my mouth (sadly far from the first time). I was referring to the fact they quote doctors (unaffiliated with any partisan group) in practically every piece of coverage; they are subject matter experts, not Genspect or Cantor. DFlhb (talk) 03:55, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

It is actually more typical of The Economist to quote doctors who are affiliated with a FRINGE geoup (which is presumably how the magazine finds them) without noting their partisan affiliation - as in the example I gave earlier. Newimpartial (talk) 04:04, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Newimpartial: As elaborated below I find these evidence to be weak at best:

To ping a few users who've supported or refuted similar evidences in this RfC: LokiTheLiar, DFlhb and Red-tailed hawk, would you agree or disagree with this assessment? Thanks. VickKiang (talk) 00:02, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

:::@Newimpartial: And P.S. you accuse me of perceiving The Economist in general but seem to ignore totally that I have refuted the so-called evidence you and Loki provided. VickKiang (talk) 00:20, 14 November 2022 (UTC) Strike comment per comments and objection below.

Please don't over-interpret my diffs; I only made reference to your original !vote which, as far as I can tell, was made before you had examined any of the context for this filing.

As far as your claim to have refuted the so-called evidence I provided, I don't believe you to have done so; see below. On the other hand, your subjective belief that you have done so suggests a

WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and may also explain why you seem to have misconstrued both my intention in presenting the evidence and some of the evidence itself. Newimpartial (talk

) 00:55, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I have striked my comment, which might be confrontational in your opinion, but I don't believe I have violated BATTLEGROUND, NPA, CANVASS... otherwise. Your comment is inaccurate as I've commented at the LBC News and read the discussion, please don't draw such sweeping conclusions next time to other editors and I as well. Not saying that you are implying this, but just because I commented promptly doesn't mean I am ignoring the context (again, not suggesting that you mean this, just a side observation). If you have other concerns with my conduct feel free to bring it to another venue (not implying that you have so, so not

WP:STRAWMAN at all). Nevertheless, thanks still for the note. VickKiang (talk)

10:05, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

And side note: Once again apologies for the wording. While that refute is similar to the wording used at

WP:NEGOTIATE and was not meant to be "defeat" or "won"... I apologise if the confrontational wording rendered in your intrepretations. Thanks. VickKiang (talk)

20:27, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

To begin with, I don't want to be dragged into a Helen Joyce rabbit-hole, but there is plenty of expert sourcing about The Economist's publications on trans issues prior to 2020 that makes both her biases, and the continuity with her subsequent non-Economist publications and advocacy, quite clear.

Concerning the medical education aricle, I will correct my statement above, but the relevant passages from the article body incude It suggested that gender-identity ideology, which holds that transgender women are women and trans men are men, had influenced some of those who were training her to be a doctor and How has trans ideology made its way into medical schools? - still unattributed statements in the voice of The Economist. In spite of your claims, neither of these statements are attributed to the lecturer.

If the proposed use of The Economist in this instance were "one medical student suspected that gender ideology had distorted her medical education", I would agree that the magazine would be reliable for that statement, but that was not the question, it was Is The Economist a reliable source for the statement that trans ideology Is distorting US medical education? I do not see how this question could be answered in the affirmative.

Similarly, my second question was Is The Economist a reliable source for the statement that the Biden administration has embraced gender ideology? This is a factual question which demands a yes or no answer: either "gender ideology" is real or it isn't, and if real either the Biden administration has embraced it or it hasn't. VickKiang, I simply don't understand how you can in good conscience duck this key question, on which The Economist lines up with the FRINGE sources against mainstream sources, and then conclude that the claim is BIASED but with no prejudice against the reliability of the source.

On the third issue, my point was that we have a specific characterisation that is made in The Economist alone. My question is whether the source can be regarded as reliable for the claim, and onxe again you dodge the question with reference to DUE. If your point is that, when The Economist relies on FRINGE spokespeople and is the only periodical publishing a characterisation, that it is unlikely for that characterisation to be DUE, then in fact you are supporting what I mean when I say that additional considerations apply. Those seekinf to rubberstamp the prior assumption that The Econimist is "generally reliable on transgender topics" are precisely seeking to ensure that content sourced only to it and similar

WP:BIASEDSOURCES

is considered DUE and presented as fact in wikivoice- as I have documented above.

Finally, on my fourth example, if you do not see the interview subject's own disavowal of the published coverage of the interview as directly contradicting any claims made by The Economist then I'm afraid I don't know how to interact with you. The Economist states that "gender identity ideology" exists (in many more articles beyond the ones I discuss here), while the high-quality sources on transgender topics are clear that it does not - that seems like a rather direct contradiction.

Finally, I'm afraid you are strawmanning my argument when you say, Stating that a couple of cases are WP:FRINGE does not equate to marginal reliability - I have never been suggesting marginal reliability, I am proposing that additional considerations apply. To specify what those considerations might be, they might include the fact that The Economist often includes highly partisan language in its coverage of trans issues, language which should not be regarded as factual or presented in wikivoice, as numerous editors in the GENSEX area typically insist on doing. Another consideration is that when The Econonist choses to amplify FRINGE voices in its news reporting, this form of advocacy should not be considered as contributing to

WP:DUE except where issues are picked up outside of the "gender critical" echo chamber. Inclusion of those two caveats would go most of the way to addressing the concerns I have been articulating all along, concerns that I believe the initial filing was intended to pre-empt and plow under. Newimpartial (talk

) 00:47, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Option 2 can also mean marginally reliable, this is not at all a straw man. I am intrigued what do you mean by the mainstream sources. Additionally, you enjoy straw man my argument and Chess’s as well by exaggerating a single comment. Your comments state high quality sources- as in scholarly ones or the standard similar to FAA? Further, you still generalise the Joyce one as quite clear without providing examples. VickKiang (talk) 00:55, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Did my !vote specify what I meant ("additional consideractions apply"), or did I not?

Meanwhile, I don't see how linking the diff of your !vote could straw man (your) argument. I wasn't saying anything about your subsequent argument, at that point, only the logic of your initial !vote. Newimpartial (talk) 02:04, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I don't see how linking the diff of your !vote could straw man (your) argument. I wasn't saying anything about your subsequent argument, at that point, only the logic of your initial !vote- in fact, I could also link your initial vote devoid of context before you completed your insightful analysis. But that is obviously unhelpful. VickKiang (talk) 02:28, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Incidentally, per

WP:MREL No consensus, unclear, or additional considerations apply: The source is marginally reliable (i.e. neither generally reliable nor generally unreliable), and may be usable depending on context. "additional considerations apply" could be taken marginally reliable and may be usable depending on context. This is not a straw-man argument, but I apologise if my imprecise wording bothers you. VickKiang (talk)

02:30, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Through If your point is that, when The Economist relies on FRINGE spokespeople and is the only periodical publishing a characterisation, that it is unlikely for that characterisation to be DUE, then in fact you are supporting what I mean when I say that additional considerations apply- per

WP:BIASED in occasional (not most) examples you gave does not mean I would like to downgrade it to additional considerations apply. If the viewpoint from The Economist is minor it might not be a significant viewpoint per DUE, of course. But I don't see how at all how I am indirectly supporting your position. VickKiang (talk)

02:57, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I understand that you are unwilling to caveat The Economist with an "additional considerations" note, but I don't really understand why. You acknowledged above that Citing WP:FRINGE but not downright WP:QS sources is a further testimony of WP:BIASED and WP:UNDUE but I don't see reliability being a concern, but the selection of sources is precisely one aspect of reliability (alongside the use of inflammatory or biased language) that I see as the relevant additional consideration. I had meant to note previously that many of those sought out for comment by The Economist are

WP:QS as well as WP:FRINGE; you referred to the categories as though they were mutually exclusive, when in fact they overlap significantly. In your reply to my evidence you repeatedly noted that The Economist was sourcing statements that would not be DUE for inclusion in our articles: that is what I regard as indirectly supporting my substantive position on article content (though not my recommendation for RSN caveats). Newimpartial (talk

) 03:34, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

I will not be amending it here. Indeed, per my original vote I consider to be a generally mainstream, well-established magazine that occasionally is

WP:QS to be generally unreliable sources, many of the other sources you cited that report the story, e.g., Examiner, WebMD does not fall into this category. Given that you described my general viewing of the source as Various editors in this discussion have apparently !voted on the RfC question without examining any evidence beyond their own perceptions of The Economist as a reliable source in general, it is obvious that we will not come to an agreement so I will abstain from this discussion. VickKiang (talk)

04:53, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

It suggested that gender-identity ideology, which holds that transgender women are women and trans men are men, had influenced some of those who were training her to be a doctor and How has trans ideology made its way into medical schools?

Just before It suggested..., The Economist states that when a lecuter told a class that gender dysphoria was not a mental illness... and previously also refers to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. I do not see this instance being in its editorial voice. This is not an example of editorial voice.

Moreover, sources that occasionally cite

WP:FRINGE

context are not always considered to be unreliable. E.g., on RSP, National Geographic, Science Based Medicine, and even Snopes are described as frequently covering fringe material.

Further, in the piece from I remain disappointed by the tone and intent of the article. My comments were taken out of context and used to cast doubt upon trans care, particularly the use of puberty blockers. Worse, Jazz Jennings was disrespectfully and erroneously portrayed as a puberty blockade failure, based solely upon her television portrayal. That said, the author conveyed to me that she is not against the use of puberty blockade but rather, interested in better informed consent, a principle upon which we both agreed. I did believe that my comments would be conveyed fairly. While the interviewee criticised the usage of the context, I also had a look at a related article from The New York Times quoting Bowers, though I don't see equitable criticism there.

On the fourth point, the current version of the FAQ states that Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria is a largely discredited acronym referring to those transgender persons who appear to ‘come out of nowhere’, skeptics attributing their choice to transition as nothing more than social contagion. It is a term used by conservatives and naysayers to deny, discredit and de-legitimize transgender persons and their search for identity as being a short term, impulsive act influenced by others. However, consider an archived version early in 2021, I don't see any parts of the FAQ criticising ROGD as so. Similarly, in a September 2021 archived version at here I couldn't find info from the FAQ that contradicts The Economist's comment on ROGD. From what I see in the archives the FAQ has substantially changed from the 2021 versions to the 2022 versions. Do you have sources that demonstrate that prior to The Economist's reporting Marci had a directly contradictory view of ROGD? Thanks. VickKiang (talk) 02:52, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

The first issue here is becoming a bit ridiculous. It can by no means refer to the DSM, which cannot possibly have suggested that gender-identity ideology, which holds that transgender women are women and trans men are men, had influenced some of those who were training her to be a doctor. Only the content of the lecture could have done that, and this content (when a lecturer told a class that gender dysphoria was not a mental illness) is presented in neutral narrative voice - as fact - by The Economist.

Also, I don't understand what you mean by I also had a look at a related article from The New York Times quoting Bowers, though I don't see equitable criticism there - are you suggesting that the content of The Economist and the NYT on this matter are the same? Because I'm not aware of any issues using the NYT as a source on this, and I wouldn't expect the views of the interview subject to the the same concerning the two sources.

Finally, I'm afraid I'm not understanding quite what you're saying about archived versions of the FAQ. Are you suggesting that something in an old version of the FAQ confirms information presented by The Economist that became discredited by later versions of the FAQ? Because I was only referring to The Economist's interpretation of the Bowers interview, not to anything else in its article which may or may not have been up to date at the time. Newimpartial (talk) 03:13, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1.
  WP:MREL that needs to be examined on a case-to-case basis. (This is of course my personal opinion, I'll try to abstain from commenting any further otherwise.) VickKiang (talk)
  20:37, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. This is a standard liberal
  biomedical information, much in the same way that we should not use the Washington Post and The Guardian for claims relating to human biomedical information. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest)
  20:54, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

The Economist is deeply conservative. Are you getting their economic position (economic liberalism) confused with their political one?Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:19, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm not confused here; the paper expresses both economically and socially liberal stances (and has done so throughout its existence). It is hardly a paper of deeply rooted social conservatism; the paper has supported decriminalization and legalizaion of drugs including (cocaine and psychedelics), supported same-sex marriage as early as 2004 (when six-in-ten Americans and about half of Brits opposed it), comments positively upon laws banning corporal punishment in children, supports the decriminalization of prostitution among other items. While they endorsed Bush in 2000, they've endorsed the Democratic candidate for President in every single U.S. election since John Kerry in 2004. Looking across the pond, their U.K. general election endorsements since 2001 have broken for Labour twice, the Tories twice, and the Lib Dems twice. Its editorial stance can be described as being radically centrist or classically liberal, but I'm not really sure how one could conclude that deeply conservative could plausibly apply as a descriptor for this publication's broad editorial and political position. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 16:19, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 3. One of
  WP:BIASED trans coverage in British newspapers), I believe The Economist is not reliable on trans issues, as a major figure in their editorial process demonstrably holds strong fringe opinions on this matter. Loki (talk) 21:02, 11 November 2022 (UTC) See amended vote below. Loki (talk
  ) 18:35, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality is not a book published directly by The Economist, but another book published by its executives. Could high-quality scholarly sources be provided that demonstrated Helen's reporting in news pieces is routinely inaccurate in relation to this topic? VickKiang (talk) 21:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  I think the relevant argument is that her influence as editor had an impact on news coverage of trans issues by The Economist (the relationship between news and editorial in the UK being more like a

  Blood-brain barrier than a water-tight compartment). Newimpartial (talk

  ) 21:40, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  I'm aware that you are compiling a list, so please ping me on Sunday once you get multiple sources directly criticising Helen Joyce's coverage instead of an assumption currently without much evidence. Many thanks! VickKiang (talk) 22:04, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  the relationship between news and editorial in the UK being more like a Blood-brain barrier than a water-tight compartment- we are asking about What best describes The Economist's news coverage of transgender topics? Opinion pieces seem irrelevant, and contradict the consensus at

  WP:RSOPINION. VickKiang (talk)

  22:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• Just to note, Helen Joyce was an executive editor for The Economist’s events business (whatever that means) since March 2020, and was a finance editor before that. She's not an executive, she's currently on a sabbatical, and she had nothing to do with the article being disputed here on WPATH.

She also had nothing to do with the series of editorials on trans identity that you link to (back then, again, she was Finance editor); she just wrote an article linking to all those editorials in one place; but didn't author any of them (each of them has a byline and an identified author).

I do obviously condemn her, but I don't agree that this remotely justifies downgrading The Economist. DFlhb (talk) 21:10, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• Given that she's on unpaid sabbatical, and worked in the event space, I wouldn't say she's "a major figure in their editorial process". Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 21:10, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  After the line Helen Joyce is the Finance editor at The Economist it does indeed link to various other pieces by numerous other editors. I couldn't see evidence that those other linked pieces are inaccurate and severely misleading. Of course, Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality is a rightfully critiqued book but it's published by Oneworld Publications, Simon & Schuster per the WP page, not through The Economist. VickKiang (talk) 21:15, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment A few sources I have found on the general issue with transphobia in the British press (not necessarily the Economist specifically):

• CNN: Anti-trans rhetoric is rife in the British media. Little is being done to extinguish the flames
• Paul Baker, a professor of linguistics: Representing trans people in the UK press – a follow-up study (NB: I'd like to find a peer reviewed version of either this or the original study but for now this is what I could find)
• Xtra: British media is increasingly transphobic. Here’s why
• Them: Meet the Trans Storytellers Fighting British Transphobia (subtitle calls Britain's press "virulently transphobic")
• PinkNews: Journalist Juliet Jacques on how UK media is trying to ‘crush’ trans people: ‘We’re not in control’
• Gay Times: Meet the journalist navigating Britain’s anti-trans press
• USAToday: The Roots of Anti-Trans Feminism in the U.K.
• Vice: The UK Is So Transphobic That Some Trans People Are Leaving
• Insider: The BBC and The Times are accused of stoking a 'moral panic' against the trans community

Loki (talk) 21:41, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that we generally declare the press of the United Kingdom unreliable for coverage of transgender topics? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 21:47, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@

WP:RSOPINION, I don't think we should, in a RfC about What best describes The Daily Telegraph's news coverage of transgender topics, link to pages criticising their opinion/commentary coverage. VickKiang (talk)

21:53, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@Red-tailed hawk: Unreliable per se, no: I'm sure there are some exceptions. But since this is clearly a systemic issue I don't see what we gain from tackling it on a paper-by-paper basis. I do think that because of the systemic problems with the UK press, we should stop assuming that UK newsorgs that are reliable generally are necessarily reliable for trans issues specifically, and instead require separate evidence of that. Loki (talk) 23:37, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@LokiTheLiar: It's certainly interesting to hear that you legitimately want to blanket ban the UK press on trans issues. Methinks we should ban the American press from covering overseas newspapers, due to the systemic issue of American newspapers thinking they are better than everyone else in the world (American exceptionalism). Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 05:30, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Do you have any sources which actually talk about that being a real issue in American newspapers? If you do then of course that is something we can discuss, if it does not then don't be disruptive. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:23, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back: Here's several about the New York Times. [27] [28] [29] Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 18:47, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Those are opinion pieces, I'm asking for real sources. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:52, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back: Most of the sources in the original comments aren't real sources either. They're opinion pieces or interviews. Trying to declare the whole British media as being unreliable on the subject of transgender topics based on those sources is the same as what I'm doing, which is linking a bunch of opinion pieces attacking a newspaper that isn't even the subject of this discussion.

As far as I'm aware, using sarcasm on a Wikipedia noticeboard is not disruptive. If it was, we'd have to block a fifth of our editors. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:31, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

On the whole, I think we should consider UK press as

WP:MREL when it specifically comes to trans topics. Some sources are better than others, but as Loki has pointed out British media has an overall anti-trans bias that in some cases is impacting on their ability to accurately report on factual matters. Accordingly these sources should be more carefully scrutinised in this context. Sideswipe9th (talk

) 22:00, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I won't do my usual breakdown here, but, similar to my detailed analysis of similar sources when it comes to the Telegraph discussion below, given my quick read of these links, I don't think they demonstrate any unreliability. DFlhb (talk) 23:20, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1: I don't see how the opinions of the events editor are relevant to editorial accuracy of the news division. The sources alleging transphobia in the British press cover accusations or of questionable quality. 2A01:4B00:9D42:6E00:A960:7681:3CB9:A529 (talk) 22:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. Honestly I don't see the need for this RfC and I suggest a quick
  WP:SNOWBALL. Gitz (talk) (contribs
  ) 23:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  How can

  WP:SNOWBALL apply when the !votes are divided? Newimpartial (talk

  ) 00:19, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1 I do think snowball applies to all three RFCs. DFlhb (talk) 23:21, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

  Given the !votes for Option 2 and/or Option 3 in alll three discussions, I have no idea how you feel that

  WP:SNOW might apply. Newimpartial (talk

  ) 00:17, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: Separate to the question of reliability is the question of bias, which some assert, and some dismiss as constrained to op-eds. But I think option 1 supporters should more clarify whether they consider the factual reporting biased or unbiased, to avoid causing the closer any headaches, or ending up with a "factual but potentially biased" listing at
  WP:RSP (which covers the news, not op-eds), as that may or may not match editors' beliefs. Personally, not only have I not seen evidence that its news reporting is unreliable, none of the proof of bias given about op-eds covers the factual reporting; I've read much of said reporting myself, and it seems matter-of-fact and neutral. However I'm open to new evidence,and I'd appreciate if option 2/3 supporters to link to specific articles they feel are biased, rather than by using academic sources that are commenting on the op-eds. DFlhb (talk
  ) 01:15, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1: If editors want to question a specific claim/article that might be valid but to suggest an otherwise well respected source is somehow not respected for just this topic? No and the evidence doesn't support any form of downgrade. Springee (talk) 04:54, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Right; I'll remind editors here that even the very most reliable oulets on Earth sometimes publish nonsense, poorly fact-checked stuff, and factual inaccuracies, and

  WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. DFlhb (talk

  ) 05:02, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1 No evidence of unreliability, no evidence of bias. Boynamedsue (talk) 12:15, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X: Scrap RfC. This seems to be a case of someone asking a question on which they favor the status quo, without presenting any of the arguments that have been given elsewhere against the status quo, to drum up easy !votes on their side. Any RfC on this question should contain, at a minimum, a summary of reasons people have objected to the use of The Economist on trans topics. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 13:54, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Are you arguing that this RfC prompt is not neutral and brief? A simple question on the general reliability with respect to a topic, with a space below to allow for editors to discuss that, is both the standard RfC format for editors to discuss general source reliability and one that presents the question neutrally. I see no policy basis for including a summary of reasons people have objected to the use of The Economist on trans topics in the RfC prompt; that is what the discussion among editors is for. The RfC is appropriately worded, and you have ample opportunity to present the arguments against the status quo in this discussion here; we need not scrap the RfC simply because the arguments in opposition to general reliability are not among the very first arguments presented. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 14:19, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  How can an RfC be neutral if it asks a controversial question with zero context? In particular, when it's a question where the argument against the status quo may not be one the average person—who knows only the source's overall positive reputation—is familiar with? Silence is not the same thing as neutrality. Think of it this way: There are respected academics who theorize that gravity is not a fundamental force. If there were an ongoing discussion on an article talkpage about whether we should cite a source that says that it isn't, and a participant then went to a noticeboard and said, with no context, "RfC: Is gravity a fundamental force?", would we see that as a proper RfC? I know I wouldn't. I would see it as an attempt to run up the score early and to sidestep an article-specific discussion of whether the given source is reliable in that context, by someone who knows that anyone asked that question out of context will say "What? Yes, of course." But maybe you have a higher tolerance for people gaming the system than I do. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 15:03, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  A simple 4-option RfC prompt itself is quite neutral. Your example of someone going to

  WP:FTN

  is explicitly made to seek advice on whether a particular topic (such as the fundamental nature of the gravitational force) is fringe or mainstream. So long as the discussion is well advertised (which, by the nature of being on a well-visited noticeboard it is), I see nothing wrong with that sort of thing and I don't see why your example (or this RfC, for that matter) is anywhere near gaming the system.

  People in this RfC, and in the two RfCs below, have been substantially discussing the claimed issues with the three sources and editors have been presenting arguments related to them. The notion that an RfC that simply asks the broader community to discuss the reliability of a source for a particular set of topics in its coverage is somehow non-neutral is frankly not well-supported. And the assumption that this is done to attempt to run up the score early or to drum up easy !votes on their side seems to be a

  weakly evidenced claim that the RfC creator is engaging in battleground behavior by merely asking this question to the community; I don't see their actions that way and I can't get behind that sort of sentiment at all. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest)

  15:18, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  If you feel I'm casting aspersions, you are welcome to raise the matter at the appropriate noticeboard. Gnu made a choice to start this RfC without so much as linking to the related ongoing RfC that they and I have participated in and that prompted these RfCs. I see

  no reason to pretend this was done for reasons other than to try to do an end-run around that discussion. The alternative would be to assume incompetence on the part of an experienced user, which personally I find more insulting than assuming intent. (And that you are, judging from your answer, generally in favor of abusing RfCs to manipulate consensus is irrelevant to the question of whether that's what's happening here.) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed}

  ] (she|they|xe) 15:32, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  With respect, I do think this is the appropriate noticeboard to note the relatively weak evidence presented that the RfC creator is acting in bad faith, as that claim of bad faith (rather than a

  reasonable assumption of good faith) is central to the stated logic of your support for Option X. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest)

  22:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Tamzin: without so much as linking to the related ongoing RfC that they and I have participated in and that prompted these RfCs -- what RfC are you referring to? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:48, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

  @ProcrastinatingReader: Talk:Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People § RfC: Eunuchs. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 23:09, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option X per Tamzin et al. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 14:02, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 Oh no, biased op-eds! Perish the thought![30] Adoring nanny (talk) 15:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X In retrospect I shouldn't have said anything but "non-neutral RFC" here. The person who nominated this wants it to be declared reliable. They are
  WP:FORUMSHOPPING from the discussion on Talk:Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People. As such, this RFC is premature: no discussion has been had on why these sources might not be reliable on trans issues. Loki (talk
  ) 18:35, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X no FORUMSHOPPING, please. HouseBlaster^talk 18:49, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Respectfully, while I understand the "premature RFC" arguments, this isn't FORUMSHOPPING, which involves "raising essentially the same issue" on multiple talk pages. The talk page argument that this stemmed from was about the inclusion of a controversy with several

  WP:RS sources (a question of dueness), not about whether these three outlets are usable on trans topics; that was just one of the argument that was brought up against dueness. DFlhb (talk

  ) 19:01, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option X this is just forumshopping a content dispute in a misleading manner and there's already an RfC going on in the article in question on whether it is DUE to include the information anyways. Silverseren^C 19:32, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

(This comment chain was initially added to the RFC prompt, which wasn't quite kosher. Per

WP:RFCNEUTRAL, RFC prompts can't "argue" in favor of one option other others. Moving down so it can be discussed here:) DFlhb (talk

) 19:51, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option X: This RfC is not presented in such a manner as to encourage informed discussion, and should be closed procedurally.

-- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 13:57, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Further down, you say that the RFC question should contain arguments against option 1 (Any RfC on this question should contain, at a minimum, a summary of reasons people have objected to the use of The Economist on trans topics). That would violate

WP:RFCST, and is in no way a reason to close anything procedurally. The RFC was indeed started somewhat prematurely, but it'll stay open for weeks/a month or so, giving both sides plenty of time to offer new evience. DFlhb (talk

) 19:42, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1, no evidence of unreliability for facts has been presented. As for the claims that this RfC is forum shopping, many in these discussions have been arguing repeatedly, not just at the
  WP:RSP. They variously seem to expect us to take their word for it, or cite the same few op-eds and similar from 'progressive' American media complaining that British papers of record don't go all-in on their preferred policy of absolute gender self-identification. These complainants either need to stop making this disruptive argument or present a case to change the community's mind. After months they failed to do so, preferring to instead disregard RSP on individual talk pages, and so someone else started a discussion. They keep saying a discussion needs to happen, so let's have it. Crossroads ^-talk-
  21:17, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option X I agree with Tamzin that this RfC has not been presented in a way that encourages informed discussion. The context of the underlying discussions that lead to the snap creation of this RfC has been left out by the filer, which is interesting when you compare these three RfCs, with the related discussion on LBC News, also started by the filer. Uninvolved editors are being asked to ask blindly whether or not these sources are reliable in a specific context, without any information as to why they are being discussed as unreliable in that context. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:18, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Comment. I would like to point out (controversially) that other editors voting Option 2/3 or Option X also expressed interest towards starting a RfC. E.g., on this very noticeboard in the LBC News section, Newimpartial stated that So far, the relevant discussuons are taking place at article Talk pages, where some of the HQ/academic sources have been presented in an ad hoc way. A number of editors have acknowleged that a noticeboard discussion will be required to amend the list entry; I would attribute my own procrastination on this to (1) my preference to treat The Times and The Telegraph together on this, so we don't see Times pickups replacing Telegraph coverage (as currently happens when either source runs with a Daily Mail story for example) and (2) my inclination to wait for the academic sourcing on this to strengthen further (as seems inevitable given recent developments in the UK), and a range of discussions at User talk:Newimpartial on the potential likelihood of taking The Times and The Telegraph to a noticeboard. Again, just an observation, I have no objectionns towards the Option X being included in the prompt though. VickKiang (talk) 21:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  I agree that a dual RfC on The Times and The Telegraph will be necessary, as there is sufficient evidence that demonstrates that the anti-trans editorial bias from these publications has lead to issues that call their reliability into question. However I know I am still in the preparation stages for those discussions, so at best I see this RfC as a premature filing, and at worst I see it as an outright attempt at putting editors like myself on the back foot by forcing an RfC before we are ready. Either way, this is not contributing to an informed discussion about these two sources. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:37, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  I agree that a dual RfC on The Times and The Telegraph will be necessary, as there is sufficient evidence that demonstrates that the anti-trans editorial bias from these publications has lead to issues that call their reliability into question- I disagree that we should combine two distinct sources together. and at worst I see it as an outright attempt at putting editors like myself on the back foot by forcing an RfC before we are ready- I also happen to strongly disagree that this is a

  WP:FORUMSHOP attempt, as per that: It does not help develop consensus to try different forums in the hope of finding one where you get the answer you want. (This is also known as "asking the other parent".) Queries placed on noticeboards and talk pages should be phrased as neutrally as possible, in order to get uninvolved and neutral additional opinions- these RfCs have only been asked at RSN, not at other locations. Moreover, it is a standard four-option choice with context additionally added, violates the neutral requirement, so I respectfully disagree. However I know I am still in the preparation stages for those discussions, so at best I see this RfC as a premature filing, and at worst I see it as an outright attempt at putting editors like myself on the back foot by forcing an RfC before we are ready- here I'm unsure if it's that you require more time gathering more evidence or that currently there is insufficient evidence yet, if the latter is true I disagree this filing is premature. Moreover, I should point out that Newimpartial stated they would provide evidence this Sunday. Thanks. VickKiang (talk)

  21:48, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  I should also note for the lack of context issues- while it's better to have some context, they were added by Newimpartial quickly, and even after that there were still voters voting Option 1. Additionally, many past RfCs ending in downgrade/deprecation didn't have context, e.g., Daily Wire RfC at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 358, Daily Star at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 311, New York Post at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 312, to give a few examples. VickKiang (talk) 22:02, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  Indeed, I have seen RFCs dismissed as not neutral because the initial poster added context. Blueboar (talk) 22:14, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

  FWIW, as someone who said something similar, I still mean to discuss the bias of the entire UK press as a whole here at some point. The problem with RFCs on individual papers is, well, look around you. Loki (talk) 23:10, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1/2 but I think it should not be logged at
  WP:RSP. Otherwise, we might be giving the impression that the source is particularly reliable about this topic, rather than just generally reliably genelist press. Which can also be summarized as Option X. MarioGom (talk
  ) 22:23, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 The Economist is a reliable source, bias in opinion pieces is the nature of opinion pieces. For news articles claiming to be about a medical issue see
  WP:MEDRS. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords
  ° 22:58, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. A top tier source, and the fact that we need to have this discussion demonstrates why the RSN process needs to be overhauled or abandoned.

I note that editors opening an RFC are forbidden from presenting arguments for or against the status quo as part of doing so, per

WP:RFCNEUTRAL. BilledMammal (talk

) 04:06, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

• Unsuitable RfC: the dispute seems to be about the article
  WP:DUE / UNDUE, and thus this RfC is not an appropriate way to resolve it. --K.e.coffman (talk
  ) 06:25, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

  Reading the related discussion, it's quite clear that some editors party to it believe that The Times, Telegraph, and Economist are not reliable sources on the topic of trans issues, which itself is a question of reliability; the source discussion is not simply about whether or not the sources are

  WP:DUE, so community discussion on The Economist will help to resolve that part of the question given that its reliability in this topic area is explicitly contested by an editor in that discussion. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest)

  15:38, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

  Yes and No… IF consensus is that these sources are not reliable, THEN we can say that the content cited to them is UNDUE (because reliability is one of several factors in determining whether content DUE/UNDUE). However, if consensus is that they are reliable, we can not say that the content is DUE (because Reliability is not the only factor in determining whether content is DUE/UNDUE… we have to look at the other factors as well.)

So… while these RFCs are a necessary step in resolving the DUE dispute… they probably will not be the final step. Blueboar (talk) 17:00, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Blueboar, this is not helpful and comes across frankly as naive. I suggest you read some of the trans conflict articles and consider how a "Community consensus vote of approval: ABC is reliable for transgender topics" will be used to game the system. How do you weigh *silence? When a story is only covered in anti-trans articles, by anti-trans journalists and, in the case of the Telegraph, an extremely anti-trans newspaper. When the only coverage of an issue is extremely biased, which makes claims like saying mainstream medicine is "extreme" and arguing for mainstream health-system clinics to close down and those are the only sources. There isn't an "other side" of "reliable sources on the topic" to cite. There's just the hate side. If the Telegraph can pump out hundreds of anti-trans articles a year, what would Wikipedia look like if we included them all? Because that's what approval here will encourage. -- Colin°^Talk 19:56, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1. No evidence has been provided of false reporting by this highly reputable source. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 08:04, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1. It is and has always been a reputable source. (Imagine if the reliability of The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The New Yorker, The Financial Times,The Spectator, and every highly regarded newspaper and magazine everywhere were to be questioned here because they had a controversial editor or author on board, or had published an article or opinion considered controversial!) Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 12:06, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 Yes, this is a reputable source, reliable for facts, and no evidence suggests it would not be reputable for a specific topic. --Molochmeditates (talk) 05:12, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 Clearly a reliable source. The arguments presented above that it is not a reliable source on these topics are unpersuasive and misdirected, and the arguments that this RFC is procedurally improper are misconceived. This should be closed as
  Banks Irk (talk
  ) 19:02, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  Did you read the analysis I provided, or did you figure a "gut check" would suffice?

  Also, I don't see how

  WP:SNOW could apply in this situation - have you read it, recently? Newimpartial (talk

  ) 19:07, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  It's possible for people to read what you have written and still believe you are wrong. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  That is entirely true. In fact, I would argue that without reading what I have written, no-one can truly know whether they believe me to be wrong or not. Newimpartial (talk) 22:17, 14 November 2022 (UTC)