Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation/Archive 8

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Any comments on which version of IMP works better?

• [1]
• [2]

--RoySmith 18:26, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

• The single list (2nd link), based on the relatively small number of entries and the ambiguous status of "IMP programming language" and "Edinburgh IMP" where "IMP" is a truncation of "implementation". Courtland 07:18, 24 August 2005 (UTC) P.S. I've modified the latest version (split list) in a number of minor ways based on style guidelines (removal of full stops, singular noun/noun phrase for article titles) and non-dictated style fetures (alphabetical sorting of items and update of wikilinks to bypass redirects mainly).
  • Thanks for those edits. My only question is why the need for (callsign IMP) and (iMP)? They both seem extraneous to me. Let's say I was looking for the television station, and I typed "IMP" into a search box. Obviously, I already knew IMP was the callsign, so the parenthetical comment doesn't really add anything here. Same with (iMP). It may be interesting to know that the acronym is capitalized in a strange way (well, strange by the conventional rules of English), but that information doesn't help me figure out which of the entries is the one I want. --RoySmith 11:55, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
    • I didn't want to derail the original proposed discussion with my edits, but I'll respond to your comments ... with respect to adding "callsign IMP" and "iMP", I'm working on a usability standard that suggest it is useful for the reader to understand why they are looking at a particular entry given a particular search. Rather than going on about that here, I'll open up a new section below to discuss this. Courtland 00:14, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Hmmm, now that I look at it closer, I really don't like how the fantasy creature entry was factored out. Logically, it makes a lot of sense, but visually, it doesn't work at all. The eye is naturally drawn to the two sub-heads, and the first entry doesn't have a sub-head, so it gets lost visually. The first couple of times I looked at it, I didn't even notice the entry was there (I was vaguely aware that something that used to be there was missing, but couldn't figure out what). --RoySmith 12:18, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
    • The lossage you're referring to might be helped by adding more separation between the three sections, which isn't necessary now that you've sectionized the "word" entry. A case where I've added separation is AAR, where there are two entries outside the list. This, though, might be in violation of the style guideline, I'm not sure. Courtland 00:14, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

• The first link considerably because there are sufficient entries to make it worthwhile separating. More than about seven in a continuous list (with exceptions) starts to push it. More than that and it becomes lots of text that's hard to keep track of (unless you're actually reading it, not scanning it). Neonumbers 23:29, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

This input was prompted by discussion around the IMP article.

Using IMP as an example, there are two lines that contain parenthetical information that I added. One parenthetical addition is "(iMP)" while the other is "(callsign IMP)".

• (iMP) was added because the target string "iMP" differs from the article title "IMP", though the current WikiMedia software treats these two strings as equivalent by forcing first-letter-capitalization
• (callsign IMP) was added because the target string is "IMP" and not the entry "Imparja Television"

These are instances of a general principle that would be useful to consider for inclusion in informal practice or as formal addition to the guideline. There is likely a technical term for this, but I refer to it as "letting the user know why they are seeing item X". Let's assume that instead of "Imparja Television" the target article was "Australian Aboriginal Television Imparja" (for argument's sake); given this target article title, it is not as clear why the user is seeing the article listed on a dab page aimed at the TLA "IMP" without adding information on the target string, the callsign. There are lots of related examples; for instance see AAR, where I've added the target string "air-to-air refueling" downstream of the target article link "aerial refueling", or A Train, where there are several performers who share this as a nickname or stage name and this is indicated on each line. My adding this information is an outcome of have heard a lot of useability feedback on interfaces I've contributed to building related to the user not having a clear understanding from looking at search result X why that search result was returned. It is true that parsing a dab page is not equivalent to parsing a search result, but in principle they are the same where the dab page represents a "pre-processed" search result.

My proposal for wording of a guideline addition, though I'm not sure if it's desirable to have this as anything more than a tolerated practice at this point, is something like (but with better diction): "In those cases where the dab-target article name is sufficiently distinct from the dab article title that their connection is not obvious, inclusion of a clarifying statement (such as a parenthetical following the dab-target link) can be added to increase the reader's confidence that this link indeed is the one that should be followed to the desired information."

Courtland 00:39, 25 August 2005

Question: how is this relevent to considering issues about disambiguation - isn't it a good thing, whats with the negativity?

I'm finding a number of articles that it is useful to include a linkage to Wiktionary on using the Sisterproject template {{

}} is suitable to use without forced lower case.

I propose the following:

• EFFECT: passes TLA value to wiktionary as an unmodified parameter (example usage:AAA)
  • modification of {{TLAdisambig}} to include {{wiktionary|{{PAGENAME}}}} as part of the template; this would replace in large part {{WiktionaryAbbr}} which I created a while ago
• EFFECT: passes a lowercase pagename to wiktionary as a parameter
  • introduction of a new template {{Disambigwithdicdef}} that is the same as {{Disambig}} but with {{wiktionarypar|{{PAGENAME}}}} as a part of the template ... however, I don't know how to force lowercase as part of the code so that a lowercased pagename is passed as a parameter.
• EFFECT: passes a lowercase bare page name to wiktionary as a parameter
  • introduciton of a new template {{Disambigwithdicdefstrip}} that is the same as {{Disambig}} but with {{wiktionarypar|{{PAGENAME}}}} as part of the template ... however, I don't know how to strip the " (disambiguation)" from pagename to pass a bare word as a parameter

Thanks for the input. Courtland 11:48, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

This seems terribly complicated. —Wahoofive (talk) 16:16, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I think that'd make life a bit easier, except that I don't think there's a way (though admittedly I'd have no idea). Neonumbers 07:46, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I occasionally run across disambig pages that desperately need "cleaning" (i.e. check "what-links-here", and edit all the pages to refer to the proper targets). A good example is league - see Special:Whatlinkshere/League. However, I don't have the time to stop and do it right now, but I'd like to flag it as needing cleanup. Is there some category, something like Category:Disambigs needing pruning, or something, that we can tag them with, so they are noted as needing work? Noel (talk) 06:05, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Why not propose this at

Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages maintenance and Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links —Wahoofive (talk

) 00:38, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

There is a section on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation devoted to "pages needing adoption" and "major adopted pages" and "pages that might be needed". The first is for things that need a lot of work, the second for things that have been adopted but need some real time to finish (really an unnecessary section) and the third is for things that might be needed but are non-trivial to do right. This was what I was thinking, at least, when I created these subsections. Courtland 08:56, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

There is now a substitute template, {{disambig-cleanup}} for this purpose.—Wahoofive (talk) 15:20, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I hadn't run across this page, but since there were a huge number of sports articles linking to league, I created a article called sports league (since league system isn't quite the same thing, but the two deserve to be separate articles) and I fixed the link for all the sports articles I could find.Kevin M Marshall 03:36, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Alright, here's a dumb question from a newbie. There is a page that I am proposing to split. The page is on

. Is this a disambiguation? Can someone look at the page to see that I followed the necessary guidelines.

I've been browsing Wikipedia for sometime, but started learning to edit pages recently. I'm still learning a lot of the in's and out's of how to do things. If someone can help me I'd appreciate it. Feel free to post on my talk page. Thanks... Davidpdx

I've changed the former dab page N Train to a redirect to N (New York City Subway service). This contravenes some input from Talk:1 Train, but I'm think I'm on relatively good footing by positing that "one link does not a dab page make" ... or am I? I've not looked through the archives to see if this has been addressed previously. Thanks for the input. Courtland 03:40, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

There's certainly no reason to have a one-item dab page (or even a two-item dab page), but I can understand the view on Talk:1 Train that there must be other trains in the world called "N Train". I support the redirect at the moment; it's not an ambiguous term yet and there's no reason to make a page because there might in the future be other meanings for the term. —Wahoofive (talk) 15:16, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

They were originally redirects, and someone took them to

RFD because of the ambiguity. Thus they were turned into disambigs. --SPUI (talk

) 21:59, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Could we brighten up disambig pages a bit? (Use of image tables)

I had a thought for improving disambig pages. <snip>

Debate refactored and moved to

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages). Please go there to discuss it further. Thank you. :) --Ashenai

14:10, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Real people vs. fictional characters

Maybe this should go under Naming Conventions, and if it has been discussed somewhere already I hope someone will point out where, but I had a thought about disambiguating real and fictional people. This came up before with

Cylon (Battlestar Galactica)

, and today the fictional androids or whatever they are were briefly moved to the simple "Cylon" title.

It seems to me that when a real person is notable enough to have an encyclopedia, like Cylon or Miles O'Brien, they should always get the non-disambiguated article title. Fictional Cylons or Miles O'Briens should not take precedence. Now, supposedly, in these cases the fictional characters are more well-known than the real people, and that's probably true considering who usually uses and edits Wikipedia, but I don't think that should matter. I know there is a rule about using the title that most people will expect to find, but in this case I think that rule should be ignored.

I don't want to make up a policy about it without getting other opinions though, so we can discuss it here I guess. Adam Bishop 21:55, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

While I think real people should get priority in close decisions, I don't think I'd want to make a blanket rule. If some 17th-century assistant cheesemaker happens to be named Jean-Luc Picard, that shouldn't give them priority to the article name, since the fictional character is so much better known. —Wahoofive (talk) 22:19, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, nevermind I guess. I am apparently not going to win the dispute over Cylon, so now it's a disambiguation page itself. Adam Bishop 23:53, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

There are two George Millers, both of whom are Australian, are film and television director and producers. The page currently lists both, but I want to separate them out and add the second to George Miller (disambiguation). Any ideas for how to name their respective articles? --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 06:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

If you're lucky, they might have different middle names. Another possibility would be to add their years of birth and death (if they're not still living) to the article titles. --RoySmith 10:42, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Good thinking. The second one is sometimes called George T. Miller, so I'll go with that. Thanks! --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 06:54, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that approach is always ideal. Roger Taylor, the Queen drummer, is at

Roger Meddows-Taylor, whereas that's really just a formal name that is rarely used. Roger Taylor (Queen) would be a lot better in that case. Similarly, if you do have two John Smiths with similar careers etc, it's probably better to put the name of their major work in brackets, rather than pulling out a middle initial no one has heard of, no? Stevage

15:11, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Lists of Abbreviations and Links to Disambiguation pages

See discussion thread at Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation and abbreviations#Lists of Abbreviations and Links to Disambiguation pages. Courtland 17:04, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Please help to fend off a stubborn anon from a disambiguation page Lenin (disambiguation). mikka (t) 21:48, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I need some clarification about when to use disambugation vs a link to the alternative page. I was creating a

so there is no conflict. In my article, I placed a link to the AO Lost Eden and did not create a disambiguation page (see my article if confused). I did this because as far as I can tell, there are currently only 2 Lost Edens. There is a work in progress movie link to Lost Eden on someone's talk page but a quick Google doesn't find anything so perhaps this is incorrect, I did come across a Children of the Lost Eden. Was this the correct thing to do? I have seen disambugiation pages with 2 links only before but there are usually names or general phrases which I suppose are more likely to have more then 2 enteries.

Given that I would admit, Lost Eden has never been very well popular or well known and the AO expansion pack is already much more popular and more well known, would it be preferble to make Lost Eden into a disambugation and link to the game (perhaps Lost Eden (adventure game)) and the AO expansion even with only 2 links? Nil Einne 07:12, 28 October 2005 (UTC) P.S. I just noticed the one link does not a disambig make which also supports my theory on 2 links. So it appears the general consensus is I did the right thing I think... Nil Einne 08:21, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

What you did was right. Normally there should only be a disambiguation page when there are three or more entries, or when two entries are considered equally important. —Wahoofive (talk) 15:35, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I was looking for Zorro and didn't know how to spell it so got to Zoro by mistake. This pair doesn't rate a dab page, but the two articles should reference each other. Is there a standard template to do that? --RoySmith 23:27, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

• There are a number of options for this, among them using the {{For}} template, which I've inserted at the top of each record with what I feel are appropriate disambiguating statements. Courtland 00:44, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Should a disambiguation page be classed as a stub?

should be a stub, and Cawas gave the following example:

Let's say hypoteticaly it's filthy and that everybody knows that it has more than 2 meanings. Then I want to add 2 meanings now, because I don't have the time to do the rest. I would call it a stub hoping somebody else would do the rest.

Would this be correct? Should you call filthy (were it in the above situation) a stub? Thelb⁴ 21:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for this initiative,

Cawas

00:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Stubs are articles, disambiguations are not

Absolutely not. Stubs are a kind of article. Dab pages are not articles. How many meanings a word has is not relevant, only how many Wikipedia articles might be expected to be named with the given term. To be sure, a dab page might be incomplete, in which case a note on the talk page and a {{disambig-cleanup}} tag might be appropriate. But not a stub. Anyway, what kind of stub tag would you use? They're all classed by topic now, and dab pages have multiple topics. —Wahoofive (talk) 23:06, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore, that page should be AFD'd, since it's just dicdefs and an irrelevant cross-reference. —Wahoofive (talk) 23:06, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I see your point, that was really of a great help. I really miss a "googlenification" (or organizing information) on wikipedia. I mean, it is still great wiki way of basically eliminating a lot of redundant information, but it grew up so fast and so much that a google acting deeper inside wikipedia would be great. But, once again, eventhough I'm both a googler learner and wikipedian newbie I haven't got to try both together too much, yet. :P

Thanks again! --

Cawas

00:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

When to use disambiguation

• One way to answer this is to answer the related question "Is a disambiguation page an article?" Stubs are types of articles; disambiguation pages are non-articles in the main article namespace (they have been compared to Wikipedia:Redirects). The very first words in the heading "Disambiguation pages" on the main page (for this talk page) are "These have links only", which removes them from being articles in the stubbable sense.

Another way to answer this is to look at lists. By tradition (or "Common WikiLaw" if you prefer), lists have been set outside the article types that are subject to "stubbing"; more appropriate template-driven classifications for lists are things like {{

Listdev

}}, that place the list article into special "please-expand" oriented categories.

Still another way to look at this is from a time-related standpoint. If we consider disamiguation pages to be articles but not lists, then are they subject to stubbing based on the "stub templates are transient labels" criterion? In most cases that I have seen of disambiguation pages, there is always the potential to expand their contents. Labeling something as a stub suggests that there is a time when it might not be a stub, meaning it is long enough or detailed enough or topic-comprehensive enough to no longer need the stub crutch to be considered an article in its own right. As far as I can tell, there is not even a fuzzy boundary that can be identified like this for disambiguation pages. There are cases of such pages consisting of one live link and one red-link, or two live links (even two red-links); at the other end, ABC has close to 50 entries (with no sign that the content is complete).

In the end I think that the disambiguation template ({{

Wikipedia:Manual of style (disambiguation pages)

).

Regards, Courtland 23:15, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I could understand that. But what about keeping an article together with a disambiguation page? That was also the case with filthy. It had 1 defintion and 1 link that I just grabed from the fact it was a redirect page before. So it couldn't be classified as a disambiguation page, and that's why you removed the definition. But that was a nice definition "translated" from the dictionary. Why removing it? It was another way to see the samething. This kind of information can prove itself usefull from time to time. I think maybe we could use another mid-term classification for a "dictionary2pedia + disambiguation page". Or maybe just add two classifications.

oops, I forgot to sign (again). Also, maybe this could be better discussed on Talk:Filthy?

--

Cawas

00:54, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

• I think it's ok to discuss here as we're using Filthy as an example of a set of edit styles.
• There is an article-dab chimera that I've advocated recently for really complicated situations (such as Aborigine and Affine), the "Signpost article", but the invocation of that article type doesn't fit this situation (in my opinion).
• Definitions translated from Wiktionary are still definitions. They are fine as part of articles. Consider, for instance, Sketch comedy or just about any article that is about a thing (in the most generic sense); a definition of some kind is almost always found in the introduction in order to provide context to the reader about what the article is about. However, that does not mean that a full dictionary definition is in order; that is what Wiktionary is for. Now I fully understand the desire to either a) eliminate Wiktionary and move all the content into Wikipedia or b) duplicate salient content between the two (both a and b fitting into your "dictionary2pedia" proposal), but neither of these things is accepted as consensus-supported editing activities in the Wikipedia environment; a certain technology option seems a no-brainer but is not a capability right now ... c) enable a cross-resource search function that would return both Wikipedia and Wiktionary articles (damn, I'd love to see that). The way that is currently supported in the Wikipedia environment to do what you did is not to duplicate content but to reference that content in Wiktionary.
• Another thing to consider is that "filthy" is an adjective, and adjectives as names of articles or as concepts standing alone as wikipedia articles are rare and kept so by policy emerging from consensus. Some information and opinion on this can be found at
  Wikipedia Naming Conventions
  provides context to these other pages. Of course, "Filthy" as the name of a band or film is a proper noun, not an adjective.

P.S. I'd forgotten I'd written some stuff related to dab pages and Wiktionary that sits in an earlier thread, above (see the heading Proposed templates and template changes including Wiktionary linkage; unfortunately, the proposals needed more than simple wikiwork but some coding magic that would be better proposed elsewhere.

Regards, Courtland 01:53, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Amazing! Thanks, I've loved specially when you "fully understood" the desire that I had to eliminate Wiktionary. I believe I understood that when I read your paragraph! And now I also agree wiktionary is actually great and your edition was good. :)

This was great for me, I just got to quickly read Wikipedia:Disambiguation and I've noticed I knew about everything important in there, thanks to this discussion! o_O

But I got to see some new things as well, of course. :P

I'm want to help to create a new article right now, and I believe it better goes by being classified as wikipedia:stub.

Here's the article:

Google search technology

Be carefull, I'm still finishing it up a very tiny little bit, but there is a

bug

on wikipedia that might trick you right now if you click on the article link.

Thanks again for everything, people! :)

--

Cawas

03:46, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

An item on AFD has brought up a dispute on the validity of a disambiguation page containing exclusively redlinks. This isn't covered in the guideline, although redlinks themselves are permitted, and I'd encourage discussion here on whether there should be a policy on it. —Wahoofive (talk) 16:57, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

My view is, if there's a link to an article and it's reasonable that an encyclopedic article could be written, then there is some level of demand for said article. That a dab page is entirely redlinks shouldn't be a problem, because normally no-one's going to see a dab page. Josh Parris # 23:48, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I would not support deleting a page just because it was a dab-page of redlinks, but I certainly would not encourage the production of these pages. It would be useful (remind me if it is already there) to add a tiny blurb about creation of dab pages, that dab pages are meant to provide navigational assistance between articles and that it is best to create the article(s) first then create the dab page(s) after ... if in fact such dab page(s) is really needed. The case of a dab-page of all red-links might well arise when one or more related articles have been deleted that were disambiguated by the page; in this case, it can be argued that if all the targets were deleted via AfD process, then the dab page that provided navigation assistance among them should be deleted as well. Courtland 00:59, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I work with the

)• 20:19, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The

MoS already says you're supposed to include dates of birth and death. Unfortunately, conformance to the MoS is hit and miss. --RoySmith

20:26, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I'll post this to the bots page to see if anyone bites on it.

You should consider whether the dab pages or the LoPbN (list of people by name) should be the core reference for persons, or if they should be on equal footing. Note that birth-deah years are related differently on the two: on dab pages there is a mix of YYYY-YYYY (using '-') and YYYY–YYYY (using 'ndash') and grammatical convention suggests usage of the latter, while on LoPbN YYYY-YYYY (using '-') is used exclusively (at present) in the interests of keeping page size to a minimum. This is something that a bot should be aware of. Also, as you are no doubt aware, the usage of birth and death categories is by no means ubiquitous. Courtland 04:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I was wondering what the policy was on including external links on disamb pages, because there is one on Flat Rock (at least at the time of this writing). - Akamad 23:12, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

If there should be an external link, it should at least exist an article about the subject, in my opinion. --Boivie 14:25, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

I can't think of any legitimate reason for a WP article disambiguation page to have an external link. —Wahoofive (talk) 04:49, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Oops —Wahoofive (talk) 21:39, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

In response to

MoS information on content of individual entries

.

In response to User:Wahoofive, if we did not allow external links in Wikipedia articles, there is no way that we could reference sources, so a blanket "(no) reason for a WP article to have an external link" is ... is that really what you meant to say?

In response to the original question, my feeling is that a) if there is an existing article, there should not be an external link (this is an internal navigational tool) and b) if there is a red-link'd article then in general no external link should be provided. The b) requires explanation and softening ... much of the discussion around Manual of Style matters has in the past been over the role of disambiguation pages: navigational (finding specific articles), educational/edutainal (supporting branching in searches, leading to articles previously unanticipated), editorial (assistance in finding articles to write via red-links). I think that external links for red-link articles could best be put in the talk-space for the dab page; alternatively, if the red-link article belongs to a class of articles that are thought to be suitable for encyclopedic inclusion, there is a Wikipedia page-set devoted to requesting articles for inclusion, and there is an entire WikiProject devoted to this (see Wikipedia:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles), and some user- and wikipedia-space pages have been constructed to capture this information (one of mine comes to mind ... see User:Ceyockey/List of companies by publication mention for instance).

Regards, Courtland 12:57, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Putting external links for redlinks on the talk page is an excellent idea. —Wahoofive (talk) 21:39, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

The "Lift" example in the guideline does not conform to the MoS, does it? E.g. each line does not start with a link; and other words in the line are also linked. Even if these are valid exceptions (and I don't see why they would be), better to give an example that does not contain exceptions. While I'm at it, is this guideline really the place to be told how to pronounce disambiguation? Nurg 22:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Quoth the

MoS

:

If the item described appears as part of another page, link to the relevant section of that page instead (using the

#anchor notation

) and conceal that by making it a piped link, as shown with "coin", below. In this case the link may not start the line, but it should still be the only wikilink.

Tail may also be: The reverse side of a coin Part of an airplane fuselage Part of a bird's anatomy

I deliberately selected an example that includes both types of disambiguation links (to convey the fact that this other variety exists and is appropriate), and I removed the links to peripherally related pages (both here and on the actual

Lifeisunfair

23:26, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I also don't like the lift example because by adding it, we've specifically added a recommendation (at least an example) that nested lists are to be used for disambiguation pages. Up till now, neither this page nor

has recommended or allowed nested lists, and in my opinion they should not be used in disambiguation pages. You may argue that it doesn't recommend against them; fine—let it remain that way.

I'm going to find a better example and replace this one. —Michael Z. 2005-12-3 06:27 Z

A good example should have examples of the different types of links (same name, name with "(disambiguation)", similar name, different name plus link, different name plus section link). It should be relatively brief, and contain few or no exceptions to the recommendations. It should be relatively stable. I haven't found a perfect one, but below are some candidates. —Michael Z. 2005-12-3 07:11 Z

• Anchor (disambiguation)
• Bison (disambiguation)
• Dam (disambiguation)
• Mafia (disambiguation)
• Mine
• Sabre (disambiguation)
• Tank (disambiguation)