Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Archive 157

[moved my second proposal to its own section below]

So what's the null hypothesis that you propose attempting to disprove? There's bound to be some correlation, however statistically insignificant it may be. --

Fatuorum

15:44, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't see it in terms of proving or disproving something, only as an attempt to increase transparency and communication. What truths are going to be communicated are up to whoever's doing the talking. - Dan

send/receive

) 15:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Then the attempt to collect data will be futile, and encourage post hoc analysis which is likely to be misleading at best. --

Fatuorum

15:56, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

My fault, Malleus, I wasn't paying attention to the indentation. My last comment was on the second proposal, to do RFAs for each candidate twice, spaced 3 months apart. - Dan

send/receive

) 15:59, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I see. We were talking at cross-purposes then. I've got no opinion about the two RfAs idea except to say that it seems uneccessarily cruel to subject candidates to the ordeal twice. --

Fatuorum

16:05, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

<outdent> Just a thought. Isn't using the RFA talkpage as the forum for deciding whether the RFA talkpage is useful or useless a bit like asking Congress/Parliament to give itself a paycut for bad performance? Keeper | 76 16:39, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Well... you could always create Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship where we can discuss this page. Majorly talk 16:42, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

LOL!!! Good point.  :-) Majorly: 1, Wikipedia: 0 Keeper | 76 16:44, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk talk, surely? :)

talk

) 16:14, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

To anyone who's interested - the

Best of luck, Gazimoff 21:38, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

[Moved from above; I'm getting support for this, so time to turn it into a section] What's striking about RFA is how many highly clueful candidates are surprised by what's said in support and opposition, and surprised by the outcome, too. We'd generate more admins, and we'd make a lot more friends, if we could spare the time to do every RFA twice; that is, the first time someone shows up, we never actually pass them, but we attempt to vote and discuss exactly as if it were the real RFA; that way, the real RFA 3 months later would be less contentious, and probably be widely perceived as higher quality, too. - Dan

????---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 16:31, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

No. A waste of time. Majorly talk 16:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

(e/c)So basically, we have an rfa to see if someone qualifies to try an rfa three months later? So, the week long vetting is now a week of nitpicking, 3 months of agonizingly sheepish editing, and then another week of nitpicking to see if they behaved for those three months? Sounds fun. Keeper | 76 16:36, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Keeper, you're saying that someone would feel more sheepish or anxious in the 3 months prior to their real RFA if they did it with knowledge of what RFA is expecting, as opposed to spending that 3 months with no idea? - Dan

send/receive

) 16:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Keeper's got it about right. In my case, I found the best way to learn about and prepare for RFA, was to participate in the process for a while first. I knew what a horrid process it was going in... (I even directly expected one or two of the typical opposes I got, from the same typical users :) ) SQL^{Query me!} 21:02, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Right, I think we might have too many candidates on our hands if it was like that. Newbies could spend time looking through past RfAs, both successful and failed, to learn how the process usually goes.

talk

) 16:37, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Gary ... do people not do that now? If there was a trial-run RFA, wouldn't they be more likely to read their own trial RFA for ideas on how to proceed, rather than past RFAs? Majorly, if you mentally organize people who show up at RFA-reform straw polls into "factions", then for your "faction", that's right, it's a complete waste of time. But the reason the current RFA reform proposals probably won't succeed is that there's a much larger "faction" that has a different mindset. They don't think that the RFA people need to be handed extra power to desysop; they think that we RFA people need to get our own house in order, starting with checking to see if some of the assumptions we make about who will and who won't turn out to be a good admin are valid. One way to do that would be to attempt to use the usual RFA logic in the trial run, and then check 3 months later to see how we were right and how we were wrong and what needs tweaking. - Dan

send/receive

) 16:47, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Trial RfAs already exist. They're called admin coaching.

Townlake (talk

) 16:54, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

(I hope I'm not coming off as badgering; feel free to tell me if I am. I'm headed to lunch and I'll leave this alone for a while to see what people say.) I think Balloonman will confirm that his support for the concept of admin coaching did not help his recent RfB. People don't want one person to tell someone what to do to become an admin; they want the advice to come from the whole community. In a sense, that's what we do now; we have a lot of failed RfAs in which people learned what they should have known all along. Wouldn't it be less painful and more productive if that first failed RfA were a trial RfA? - Dan

send/receive

) 17:00, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

No coaching did not help, which is a real shame. I am a teacher at heart, I like to teach, instruct, and educate. It's what drives me, which is why I got involved with coaching. But Wikipedia frowns upon any efforts to educate/teach others. People are expected to learn WP via osmosis and if somebody attempts to share their knowledge/experience in any formal manner, it is condemned/criticized/looked down upon. Does coaching work? We have mixed results---I think in some cases, it clearly does. In others, it doesn't. Unfortunately, we have people whose biases are so great that they won't even entertain the notion that it can be done effectively.---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 17:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

What's wrong with coaching is what is being coached for. There's a difference between coaching someone to be a good admin and coaching someone to pass an RFA. Durin said it best - you can't teach someone to be an admin. They either have the qualities to be one or don't. It's as simple as that. Majorly talk 17:14, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree, which is why I've opposed a large number of people who have been coached to pass an RfA---but I would argue that my coaching isn't to pass an RfA, but to be a better wikipedian. If what I've done isn't to be a better wikipedian, then I can't see what would be. I would invite you (or anybody) to show me how I am coaching simply to pass an RfA as compared to being a more rounded editor. The reality of the situation, however, is that the good and the bad are both thrown out. And people see "admin coaching" and cry out in disgust.---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 17:19, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Not to mention, going through RfA can be distressing. Which is why it's often better to go through it when you are actually ready.

talk

) 16:57, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Gary, I think you should have defined what you mean by

when you are actually ready. ;-)---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results

17:06, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

This idea is like admin coaching on steroids. All it will do is instruct in how to pass a second RfA down the line after, as Keeper so rightly says above, "3 months of agonizingly sheepish editing". There is nothing to be gained from any changes to RfA until the desysoping problem is sorted out. --

Fatuorum

17:08, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

What problem is this? Majorly talk 17:09, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflicts) There's a good idea at the heart of this. Part of the current problem is that we are judging how people would use the tools when they don't yet have them. So why not have probationary admins for three months before their RFA, with crats awarding the probationary status? Then those who choose to have an RFA can be judged on how they've actually used the mop. No more insufficient need for the tools arguments, no need to link this with admin recall and if people find the tools aren't useful to them, no need to waste everyone's time with an RFA. We could also retain the existing RFA process as an alternative option for former admins and the optimistic. It would even appease those who demand ever higher standards at RFA because after three months with the tools hopefully the good candidates will have achieved a higher standard. WereSpielChequers 17:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, granting some or all of the tools for 3 months is an option, and maybe better than my suggestion; the reason I didn't bring that up is that it will make the conversation harder, because we'd be talking about something we're not familiar with; "RFA lite", an RFA to grant a different set of tools or to provisionally grant all the admin tools would inevitably be a different beast than the fairly predictable process we've got now. My proposal is that voters will make a good-faith effort to pretend that the trial run is the real thing, and tell the candidate exactly what they would say if RFA were still being done the old way. If you change what's being offered, then people will have to completely rethink. That could be good or bad, but either way, the discussion would take longer; I was hoping for something that was easy to understand and easy to do on a trial basis. - Dan

send/receive

) 18:21, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

That seems like far too sensible an idea to have any chance of success WereSpielChequers. --

Fatuorum

18:25, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

A good idea in theory, but then you have to remember there are the admins who start to "lose it" way after three months. I personally began to "lose it" well over a year into adminship. Majorly talk 18:28, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

(reply to Majorly). The problem that desysoping is for all practical purposes impossible except in the most egregious of cases. --

Fatuorum

18:15, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Then you have people like me who, if they went through this process, would instantly break it. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 17:29, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I hate how "egregious" is now becoming the most used word in every discussion I visit.--Patton^t/c 23:36, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

What I hate is how the word "egregious" is becoming increasingly appropriate. --

Fatuorum

01:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

If done right, this could be good, for the same reason that admin coaching is good if done right. Before running for adminship, candidates should take a long hard look at what's involved and what it means to be an admin. Good coaching helps him do that. This process could do the same. If a candidate basically said "I want to be an admin, what am I doing right, what am I doing wrong, and what am I simply not doing that an admin needs to do" then spend the next 3 months righting the wrongs and doing what he previously didn't do, that would not only help him decide if he wanted to be an admin, it would make him a better admin when he did get the bit, and would very likely make him a better editor. I know the self-study I've been doing the past few months has prevented some possible oop-sies and probably made be a better editor than if I just came in last fall and self-nominated. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 03:52, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

This is what

Alternatively, people could just stop being dicks in the opposition. Anyone who runs for RfA, but either hasn't been seen on this talk page before, or may have, at some point along the way disagreed with them about flagged revisions, or RfA standards is routinely flogged for no good reason. Half the opposition these days essentially declares candidates who did not work in {arbitrarily select any wikisomething space and insert here} grossly negligent terrorists hell bent on using the mop solely for malfeasance. Hiberniantears (talk) 18:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

The one thing everyone agrees on at RFA is that decisions are being made (always by other people, of course :) without data or inconsistently, so that problem needs to be addressed before trying a pretend-RFA or pre-RFA (I'm calling it PRFA); otherwise, we'll get the same complaints about PRFA that we get about RFA, which will sink PRFA. I'll tackle the data problem in a new thread below. - Dan

It's rather common to start an RfA nomination and then fill it out or wait for an acceptance then forget to update the ending time. Sometimes it's not a big deal like a couple hours, but many hours can get to be a problem. An RfA isn't active until it is listed on

Why so serius? This is Rfa:talk. Keeper | 76 04:01, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

It looks like a useful reminder to me. - Dan

send/receive

) 13:51, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I'll do my best not to let that type of egregious transgression occur again. :) It's just that it's a recurring issue and a number of people like to know what they can do to help. That's an easy and important one. - Taxman ^Talk 22:07, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

• Bot writer anyone? --Hammersoft (talk) 15:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Seems appropriate. - Taxman ^Talk 22:07, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I feel the end time should be updated to reflect 7 days from actual filing at RFA. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:15, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we mean the same thing. When I say listed on RfA, I mean the editing of Wikipedia:Requests for adminship to include the link to the active nomination. I assume that's what you mean, no? - Taxman ^Talk 22:47, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Obviously. An RFA may well sit for some time if there are multiple nominators waiting to add their bit. It is up to the transcluder to adjust the end time. A bot may help, but it really is a minor thing. At the end of the day, if it is not done on transclusion it will be done very soon afterwards by one of the many many editors who "clerk" RFA. Pedro :  Chat  00:34, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

But the reason I brought it up is it is often not done and the uncorrected closing time rolls around as much as 24 hours before the correct one. You're right a couple hours is no big deal. A day may not be, but we have decided on 7 days as the time to gather consensus and we should at least be consistent. - Taxman ^Talk 12:52, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh look, there are no candidates at either RfA or RfB (again). Is the world imploding? I haven't checked the news yet today; should I whitewash all of my windows and take the doors off their hinges? --

So what do you suggest? Nominate User:Example? Simon^KSK 23:30, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I expect all the good candidates have been scared away. Majorly talk 23:31, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Or, all the good candidates don't WANT to put up with the abuse known as RFA right now. ArcAngel (talk) 23:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I suggest not worrying about it. There are too many administrators as it is. ;-) --

Fatuorum

23:34, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Why would they be scared of such a nice place? And, Malleus, you're right. Too many admins. Some of them don't even deserve it. Simon^KSK 23:35, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

We had a nomination about 30 minutes ago; I can't work out if it was a joke or the user in question is about 12, one of the two. The problem is that any user who goes through the thing once (or hangs around here) never wants to touch it again, and those who don't hang around here are unlikely to reply to any requests for candidates made here. actually now that I think about it me and Ten Pound Hammer keep coming back like abused wives. Exceptions that prove the rule, I guess (as much as I hate that phrase). Ironholds (talk) 23:42, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

It was closed 0-1-0, which was defensible (and the candidate seemed cool with it), but 0-1-0 seems quick to be closing, even when NOTNOW seems likely. Even NOTNOWs can allow wannabe-admins to get valuable advice from the community before they're shut down. Not criticizing the closer here, just one opinion.

Townlake (talk

) 00:00, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, my miserable slogging at CSD between 10:30 and 13:30 today getting rid of attack pages that had been hanging around for hours really indicates we have too many admins. Try - "we have too many inactive admins" and come back to me. Until then.... Pedro :  Chat  23:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, we need more. The problem is (and there is no way to rectify this without being unfair to candidates) that unlike Checkusers, Administrators are picked regardless of location. If you have 400 active admins, 300 of whom are in American timezones (massive generalisation and exaggeration, I know) then there are going to be 'blind spots' where admins are not online during certain hours/are but are doing something else. Ironholds (talk) 23:48, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Generalisation accepted, but also agreed on. UTC 10:00 sees the west coast Americans going to bed, the very late Australian contingency about to, our Indian / Middle East friends are few in number, and the Brits are at work. I edit from work, ('cause I can!) but I guarantee that there are far fewer active admins around then = Waggers, Redvers, Peter Symonds (now he's rejoined the evil cabal of deleting attack pages) are a few but it's not like 01:00 UTC by any stretch. I'm not proposing we bias towards timezone, but off hand "we have too many admins" comments are, well, wrong and frankly Malleus and SimonKSK would do well to put up evidence or shut up. I sat there deleting crap - you didn't - so show the evidence we have too many admins. Pedro :  Chat  00:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Well I'm a Brit who doesn't work or sleep (hint, hint :P). We shouldn't start selecting users by timezone, but perhaps we could start a drive to find good candidates who have slipped under the radar (the best kind, since turning up at ANI and places often is a bad sign rather than a good one) and do so through category searching. Look through Category:Users from India or something similar depending on the timezone required. It is as good a way to start as any, and trawling through every wikipedian would take so long. If we're going to search for decent candidates, we may as well search for those candidates who can do the greatest good if their request passes. Ironholds (talk) 00:25, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I thought you had the bit? Pedro :  Chat  00:30, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

People keep saying that; I don't know why. Maybe people think that with that many RfAs from one person one of them must have been successful by now :P. But no, I'm not an admin after five requests (two notnows, one almost-notnow, one dramahfest and one dramahfest where I broke even and got a barnstar from Balloonman). Ironholds (talk) 00:31, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Where is this myth that we have too many admins coming from? And SimonKSK, what does deserving it have to do with anything? Mind giving some names? I hear lots of "admin abuse" cries, but never any solid examples. Majorly talk 23:46, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we definitely do not need to have a list of examples here on this page.

^T

00:32, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

There aren't any names. People can cry "admin abuse" till the cows come home. The reality is, while there are some admins who aren't especially competent, our admins are all pretty decent, and the really bad ones are removed. Majorly talk 00:35, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

If RfA dies down a bit, you can always list my name as a backup. That will be sure to fill up seven days worth of drama. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:28, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Support posting an RfA for Ottava on the condition that it is moved to

WP:ANI, where drama of that magnitude belongs :P. Ironholds (talk

) 00:33, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Why don't they just give me my own subpage of WP:AN (does WP:AN/OR already exist? haha)? Ottava Rima (talk) 00:43, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Are you really as bad as Betacommand? :) Majorly talk 00:45, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Well he can still edit, so obviously not :P. Ironholds (talk) 00:46, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I am, after all, completely technologically inept, don't understand how to program, can't use a bot or any auto program, and prefer typewriters over processors. I think that is one of the few things that keeps me from being seen as a threat. I'm like a snail. Sure, I may be evil and stuff, but it would take me forever to do any actual harm. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 00:51, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

or there is Sceptre-style editing; your screwups cause just enough trouble to be brought to ANI but too much dramah for consensus over a block to be reached. Ironholds (talk) 00:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Unwaranted. Why bring another editor who rarely edits this page in recent times into this? Pedro :  Chat  00:59, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Pedro. I know Sceptre. He would never want to be compared to me. Haha. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 01:07, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

My apologies, it was more a 'well if we're comparing drama styles by editor now..' comment than any attempt at causing disruption/drama. Ironholds (talk) 01:13, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Whose round is it now? Oh how I love going down to the Dog and Duck RFA talk page on a Friday night! Majorly talk 00:58, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

This is a sad way to spend a Friday, but then I spent New Years Day playing an RPG with WP editors over IRC (so many abbreviations, so little time). Ironholds (talk) 01:00, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

If you need people to nominate, there is always

Please have a read of this. It's embarrassing that my home project can't get its act together and put something like this together. Majorly talk 19:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Ideas like that can be created very simply when it is one person writing it. When it is 200 people bringing their preconceived notions of what RfA should be and history with other users to the table agreement is much more difficult. An example would be a cake: a single person making a carrot cake would be easy; when you are fitting 200 people into the kitchen fighting over the ingredients it gets more difficult, especially when half the cooks aren't talking to the other half and wanted to make a chocolate cake anyway. Ironholds (talk) 19:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

That's pretty half-baked, IMO. Who's to say what's "irrational"? You? Me? (Ideally me, of course.) People are fixated with this voting idea, and just aren't thinking outside the box. For instance, just off the top of my head, why not a system along the lines of the one that eBay uses to rank buyers and sellers? That might have the added advantage of giving some substance to barnstars, as well. --

Fatuorum

19:26, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

A++++++ editing, fast reverting, would buy again. –

talk

) 19:30, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Pretty much like that, yes. And then when you get to 250, or whatever, you're automatically an admin. And of course, if your ranking drops below the promotion level because of negative feedback, then you're also automatically desysoped. How easy is that? :-) --

Fatuorum

19:34, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

That would certainly make it easy for the quid pro quo groups, one more thing besides barnstars and GAs they can exchange!--Wehwalt (talk) 19:37, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Why pretend that's not happening already? --

Fatuorum

19:39, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The problem with the eBay rating system is that it kind of encourages revenge. One guy waits until the other posts feedback first, and if it is negative, he posts negative feedback as well, regardless of their performance. Something like that could also happen on Wikipedia. Useight (talk) 19:41, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Why pretend that's not happening already? --

Fatuorum

19:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Touché. Useight (talk) 19:45, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Negative feedback is not encouraged on eBay. Unlike Wikipedia, where people oppose right left and centre over things ranging from making a typo in the nomination, to tagging a page for deletion incorrectly three years ago, eBay will suggest all sort of alternative routes to go instead of giving negative feedback. I do quite a bit of shopping on eBay and I've yet to see someone with less than 97% positive feedback. Majorly talk 19:46, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

In fact, sellers can't even give negative feedback. All they can do is either to give positive, or none. --

Fatuorum

19:50, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Really? It's been a long time since I've used eBay. Useight (talk) 19:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes. I just checked something and saw someone with 93% positive, but they only had 46 comments altogether so it was rather skewed. I reckon once it goes below a certain level, they get kicked off. Majorly talk 19:54, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Not sure whether they get kicked off or not, but although sellers can't leave negative feedback, they do have a button to report problems they've had with the seller to eBay. That's perhaps where the

Fatuorum

20:03, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Lately, I have read many of your comments, Majorly, criticising everything possible regarding opposes both on RfAs and here. Also, I have read this blog post. Thinking about both your comments and that blog post, I started asking myself the following questions: What is the thing administrators must have? Right, trust. Trust, however is a merely subjective thing. Yes, it is. It simply can not be measured objectively. If one says “I do not trust ...” this has to accepted — completely and absolutely regardless whether you agree. And even if you start discounting every vote you do not agree with — what is the point in doing this? Well, the candidate becomes an admin then, fine. An admin without the trust of the community. Great. Is it that what you try to achieve? Obviously it is. Simply, it's inevitable if we start doing this. Though I know no one will care anyway, I want to emphasise what I've written above already: Trust is subjective. This matter of fact should be accepted in the end. This badgering of persons which are not of the same mind is unbearable. It's unbearable. And now, go ahead, start claiming that me voicing my opinion has to stop. User:WJBscribe said it once at this talk page: Our RfA system is okay. It works. No need to change it. Wikipedia exists since years with this system and until now it [i.e. Wikipedia] did not go down. Strange, isn't it? And I also say it works: Candidates who have the trust of the community are promoted, those who haven't are not. Finally, we have excellent bureaucrats making excellent decisions. There's nothing wrong — the only thing that's wrong is that badgering of persons which are not of the same mind. — Aitias // discussion 20:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

The problem, as I see it, is that people are not thinking on an ambitious enough scale. RfA would be OK in its present form if there was a practical method for reversing its decisions. But there isn't, so it can't be fixed in isolation. --

Fatuorum

20:07, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Could you please elaborate a bit on this? I don't quite understand. — Aitias // discussion 20:12, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Aitias: I'm afraid you are overestimating the weight of one hundred regular voters at RFA. One hundred is not the community.

NVO (talk

) 20:13, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Everyone who wants to voice their opinion is entitled to it. If they do not, that's their problem, isn't it? — Aitias // discussion 20:17, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

How long were you here in wikipedia before you knew that there was such a thing as RfA? It certainly weasn't something that I stumbled across for a good long time. And that's part of the problem, the community is not involved, just a relative handful of RfA regulars. Compounded by the fact that the ludicrous canvassing policy demands that the election be held in almost total secrecy. Not healthy. --

Fatuorum

20:23, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

That's an interesting question actually. I first came across an RFA quite early on - about a month after I joined. My first vote was *gasp* an oppose. Lol. How things have changed.

Back to the point, that's yet another problem with enwiki RFA. We'll never get the community's true opinion. On Meta-wiki, when there is an RFA, pretty much every active editor votes (and nearly all RFAs pass unanimously). If only it was like that here. Majorly talk 20:30, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

You clearly have not read my comments properly, Aitias. There are only certain aspects of oppose votes I dislike. I have opposed people many, many times. I have not, at any point ever, said that opposes are not allowed. What I have said is they should not be thrown around willy-nilly. This is a person we are talking about, not some object. Candidates have feelings too you know. While they may be completely dreadful as a candidate, it's not an excuse to make a vicious attack on their character. This is what I hate about opposes. They are negative. They bring down the atmosphere. This is why oppose so rarely, and why I dislike them so much.

You're clearly either misrepresenting my comments, or not understanding what I'm saying Aitias. I've said the same thing as WJBscribe. The process is fine. It's the people that participate in it that bring it down. You don't have to oppose everyone right left and centre, do you? It's your own choice. Just like it's my choice to ask why you do that. Are you a negative person in real life Aitias? I hope not. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If you don't like being badgered don't vote. Or even better - vote with damn good reasoning. If your reasoning is rock solid, no one will need to question you. You'll notice how I don't question every opposer - only the ones that lack solid reasoning. "I don't trust him" simply tells no one anything, and is not the way to help build consensus. Sorry if you can't see that.

The only thing wrong with the RFA process is the people participating in it. It's ultimately the opposers that decide if the candidate passes or fails, because an oppose is worth four supports. It's quite unfortunate that many of their rationales don't have the slightest relevance to being a Wikipedia admin. I know you like following policy to the letter, and expecting every admin to do the same, but the rest of us are here to write an encyclopedia. That's all that matters on Wikipedia. If you'd like to join us, you're very welcome. Majorly talk 20:20, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll leave you two to your argument. I had no great hopes of opening up anyone's mind to possible alternatives anyway. This is wikipedia after all. :-) --

Fatuorum

20:26, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the main way to go seems to be a more effective desysopping process. Get rid of the 'an admin is for life, not just for christmas' mentality and people will stop getting shitscared at the smallest issue. Ironholds (talk) 20:28, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

That would certainly be a very significant beginning. If adminship is no big deal, then non-adminship is also no big deal. Strange how so many seem to be unable to understand, or choose to ignore, the corollary. --

Fatuorum

20:37, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

@Majorly: “You'll notice how I don't question every opposer - only the ones that lack solid reasoning.” Are you the one to judge that?

“This is a person we are talking about, not some object. Candidates have feelings too you know.” Oh, really? What about re-reading the last paragraph of your message then? Nothing but offending. — Aitias // discussion 20:35, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, is there a problem with me expressing my opinion on what I think of someone's rationale? Or are you opposed to any kind of discussion on RFA? RFA does not stop untrustworthy people passing, likewise it does stop trustworthy people passing - thanks to people like you opposing good candidates. If you're opposing to try and stop "untrustworthy" people passing, you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's not working. Majorly talk 20:40, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

EVula's ideal RfA process

User:EVula/opining/RfA overhaul

In short: same as it is now, but with the above process tacked on so we can remove sysops easily. I honestly believe that would eliminate the hesitation that a lot of participants have with giving out the sysop flag. Shouldn't be as easy as rollback, but it should be easier than it currently is. EVula // talk // ☯ // 08:10, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Being that it's 1:30AM here and I'm too tired to think straight, this looks like a good write-up of the ocassionally-brought-up "let's simplify desysopping". I, too, think there should be an easier and/or quicker way to desysop, but it shouldn't be too easy. I don't think adminship should just come on and off like a pair of socks. Perhaps some limit should also be imposed that a particular candidate can't be "RFDA'd" more than once every X number of months. Perhaps the case should go to ArbCom if the bureaucrats decide there is no consensus. I don't know. I'm sure this will be dissected in much greater detail in the coming hours by people who aren't about to dive into bed. That's all I have for now, except I'd like to add that your final point at the bottom was a nice touch. Useight (talk) 08:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, let's start by considering if it's right that desysoping should be so much more difficult than sysoping. --

Fatuorum

08:48, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)) Well, probably the simplest way to go about it. Should be a required number of people needed to file a request (say five) to avoid random nuts from nominating admins they don't like. Agree with Useight that there should be a hard limit on the RfDAs that can be filed on an admin (say one every six months). I'm hesitant though to make it a direct clone of RfA though. Maybe require proof of previous attempts to correct or note the admin's inappropriate behavior (RfC/U, ANI cases, etc.) as a further barrier to frivolous noms. Anyhow, enough of my tired musings. Interested to hear in what others have to say about this. — sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 08:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

An RfA doesn't require five nominators, so why should a request for desysoping? --

Fatuorum

09:11, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

So that the concerns raised go beyond one guy wanting to grind an axe. If that one person has a persuasive enough argument to desysop someone, then he or she should easily be able to convince four other people to support their proposal. It's simply another barrier to frivolous desysop attempts (which are annoying regardless of their validity). — sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 12:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

This seems similar to a proposal I saw in the past, but I can't find it. Either way, this seems like a good start to a process, but it does need some work. As Malleus and Useight have pointed above, it is certainly subject to abuse. I would not oppose a limit set on how many times they can be nominated. However, if some new user is abusing the process, then it would likely just get snow closed as "keep". Xclamation point 09:27, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I've been thinking about something like this as well, but there are two major concerns. First, the last concern raised by EVula is flat out wrong... Second, I think we might want to consider an acceptance approach similar to ARBCOM. EG somebody raises a concern and the crats first determine if there is merit or if it is mere sour grapes. I'm afraid that if we just let anybody nom somebody at anytime, then we are going to open the flood gates to every person who gets offended at any point in time... I mean, I can see

Moi? You'd probably be surprised. In spite of appearances, I firmly believe that most admins do as good a job as they can. Sadly, the best they're capable of too often just isn't good enough. --

Fatuorum

09:53, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Haha. Wonderful response 'it isn't that I think you're actively working against the project, no. I just think you're physically incapable of doing the job at hand' :P. Ironholds (talk) 11:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

This would be an interesting change, but I can't help thinking of what the resentful admin would do during the period between seeing consensus to desysop becoming clear and actual closing of the discussion.  Frank  |  talk  13:13, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I take it, EVula, that effectively speaking, an 80 percent vote for desysopping would most likely pass, and under 70 percent would most likely fail? If so, I could live with the process. Say, minimum of five, they present a statement and the admin could present a statement if they wanted to. If a bureaucrat (who will not be the one to later gauge consensus) thinks there is enough to it according to certain standards that would have to be developed, the actual !vote begins. If not, or if the thing fails, no petition against that admin will be considered for six months (with some safeguard to prevent a "straw man" petition with obvious lack of merit which is designed to give an admin a six months' shield). The admin could still be desysopped through normal means, i.e., an ArbCom judgment.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:19, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Support that idea. What hoops would we have to jump through to put it in place? Ironholds (talk) 13:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I also support that idea. But not to sure how it would be implemented without a large poll. We are supposed to build a consensus through discussions, but I can see this discussion getting nowhere like many other attempts at fixing RfA. Who knows?

talk

// 14:53, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

We may as well try; nothing ventured nothing gained. I hope everyone appreciates the lol-value of the fact that many more people will vote in a community poll on RfA reform than actively take part in RfA. Ironholds (talk) 15:04, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I do not see much use for such a process. Usually the community loses trust in an admin, when they make blatant mistakes and misuse the tools deliberately to further their own agenda. In those cases though, the admin in question will be brought to ANI and usually be blocked if they really start wheel-warring or similar. As Frank points out above, there is a risk that the admin in question would start vandalizing with their tools when they see that they will surely lose them. Also, you can withdraw an RfA, but you couldn't withdraw an RfDA so I think Balloonman is correct to say that there need to be clerks of some kind to weed out bad-faith nominations, which is what the crats would have to do then. Regards SoWhy 15:29, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Clerking works for me. If we institute a system whereby RfDA is a simpler process and RfA therefore becomes 'easier' to pass (an admin is for christmas, not for life) then this could encourage users not to abuse the tools if they know they are going to loose them; such behavior would be a death sentence for any subsequent RfA. If they know there is a (reasonable) change they can get the tools back at a later date without Ed Poor-style dramah should they behave then such issues should fix themselves. Ironholds (talk) 15:33, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

It was noted above that some voters at RFA are biased in one direction or the other; the miracle is that the process works as well as it does, better than it would in any other organization I can think of. When we start up RfDA (Request for Demoting Administrator?), bias could have a much bigger impact. It shouldn't be difficult to look through an admin's deletion and block log, see who's angry, and organize a posse to go through every single contribution of the admin, looking for flaws. We can hope, of course, that angry people will be obvious and clumsy, but that's not a given; they may have friends and socks show up at RfDA who have no apparent connection to the admin, who do a good job of coming off as "concerned wiki-citizens". If admins start losing the mop, and other admins get the impression that the RfDA was not entirely fair, that's going to have a strong chilling effect on admins, and you'll see fewer blocks and deletions ... especially of exactly those people and articles that most need to be blocked or deleted, because those are the ones most likely to seek revenge, and do a good job of it.

On the other hand, my faith in the RFA process has risen steadily ... despite all the drama, we usually seem to get it right (although sometimes just barely) ... and RfDA would build an important feedback mechanism into RFA; when we get it wrong, we really need to have some eye-opening done on just how wrong we got it. That will make RfA better, and I'm convinced that if there's a chilling effect on admins, they'll tell us, and we'll adjust the culture and probably the percentage cutoff as necessary. So ... it's a bit of a leap of faith, but yes, I'm in favor of RfDA, mainly because I think the timing is right. - Dan

send/receive

) 15:53, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

P.S. Initial input from the very active admins is very negative, and no matter whether it's a good idea or not, we can't afford for current admins to cut back on their work out of fear of unknown repercussions; in light of that, I'm thinking that if we do RFDA, it should apply only to people who pass RFA after the proposal is approved. Discussion welcome at

send/receive

) 19:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Is someone going to be

WP:BOLD and start up a poll/proposal page then? We'll need somewhere to wrangle out the details and gain further community input (not that most of the community will get involved in the finished product anyway should it pass). Ironholds (talk

) 15:55, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

A poll would be as good a way as any to proceed, I suppose, but clue people in that this is going to be the strawiest of

send/receive

) 16:14, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

So a sort of RfC style thing? We suggest something with clerking, five users and a six month limit, someone else wants ten users and no limit sorta thing and we see how many people want which version? Ironholds (talk) 16:23, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Moi, I would prefer to see a "probation" status first. We've seen how danged difficult it is to become an admin after either voluntarily de-sysopping or having admin status removed, even when the editor is truly deserving. A hiccup is just a hiccup, and may be reparable. Of course, this would depend on the level of hiccup - a scale of damage so to say. The probation period cannot simply be some piddly period of time that the admin has to keep their nose clean ... you need a real period of time. Maybe noob-admins need one too? (

talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track

) 16:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I do not know for sure what I would do if I got dragged in front of a tribunal and desysopped when I didn't do anything. My guess is that on the day before it closed, I would just go around and block/delete/protect/vandalize everything I could think of. I usually act rationally, and I usually think about what I do before I do it. But if I see something really, really, wrong, and I can't do anything to undo it, I generally react by going completely nuts. Most of the time, I keep it to myself, or I just go for a hard run or something. But if it was something like Wikipedia, that doesn't really matter, I doubt I would have any qualms about burning bridges. I am being perfectly honest here. I truly believe, as I stated a few days ago on this page, that the community at large hates administrators with a passion - merely for being administrators - nevermind how much good they do, or how little bad. This, combined with the numerous enemies my anti-vandal and NPP work have undoubtably gained me, leads me to believe that my chances of retaining my bit at an RfDA would be nil. I would suspect that most administrators, who have had a far longer tenure than I, would fare much worse. How can I help but think this? Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&limit=100&username=Misza. Those are not likely to all be bored schoolchildren. I cannot begin to imagine the sockpuppetry that would happen in a potential Wikipedia:Requests for de-adminship/Misza13.

I unequivocally do not trust that the community will be able to separate legitimate complaints from complaints that are actually rooted in months or years of resentment as a result of being thwarted again and again by an administrator with an active mind and a nimble hand. And in any case, I do not think that I, being an incurable pessimist, would be able to handle the stress of knowing that any of the people I block could end up getting my bit taken away from me. The only way I would be likely to support a proposal like this would be if at least three bureaucrats all had to agree that there was enough evidence against the accused to warrant an RfDA, and I don't think it is right to force the bureaucrats to do even more work. Besides, if three bureaucrats thought that an admin should be desysopped, why would we even need to have the RfDA?

That being said, I am not afraid of being held accountable. I am afraid that admins' hands will be chained by the fear of pissing off a determined (and technically savvy) vandal/spammer. What assurance do we, admins, have that we will not end up being desysopped for deleting some guy's myspace band article? I will say, that if any request modeled primarily after RfA were to be adopted, I would most likely voluntarily resign my bit, and possibly retire. I do, after all, only edit Wikipedia because I enjoy doing it, and I do not think I could live with that much stress. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 17:21, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Well firstly the clerk (presumably a member of the community) would be tasked with weeding out such sour grapes early on. Even assuming that they let a few through it then goes to a 'crat, who can be trusted (99.9% of the time) to weed out any remaining horse shit. Lastly I'd point out that Wikipedia is only a website; if the risk of getting a couple of tools taken away causes you stress perhaps you should take the place less seriously. Ironholds (talk) 17:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I gree with J.delanoy. I simply cannot expect that this kind of process would end up with less than 99% of requests being

talk

) 19:39, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

How many frivolous RfAs actually go anywhere? I see a comparable number when it comes to RfDAs. Editors that continue to post frivolous RfDAs will wear out their welcome in the community; they'll either ostracize themselves or leave of their own volition. I see the matter of repeated RfDA attempts as a self-policing system. EVula // talk // ☯ // 19:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Why no preconditions are needed for a desysopping process

Personally, I am in favor of EVula's idea. Count me in for a stronger than strongest possible support !vote on this one. I don't think it'll fly, though, for precisely the reasons that most ideas to alter RfA have: people can't agree on any preconditions. (See

1. High minimum number of nominators: This doesn't really make sense, given that the whole reason for floating this process in the first place is to make it easy to desysop. As an admin myself, obviously I don't want some editor who's dissatisfied with my close of an
   WP:SNOW
   , which has been used (as far as I know) with very few problems at RfA to remove requests which have no chance of passing. The same logic would apply at an Rfda: if the nominator provides only one diff to show "abuse", people are going to be edit-conflicted all over the place removing the request. Will there be borderline cases? Yes. There are borderline cases all the time, all over Wikipedia, but we deal with them just fine. I look at it this way: if Rfa is such a trial, then an Rfda that's unjustified is going to be much less of a trial, because it will go down in flames rather quickly. If you want to see what I mean, watch what happens any unjustified posts to ANI or AN screaming "admin abuse!" They get shot down faster than a 10-point buck during hunting season. (I think I just gave away my nationality. *grin*)
2. Time limit between Rfda's: again,
   WP:SNOW
   , and the nominator would probably be warned about disruptive behavior. So that is a self-correcting problem, I think. Repeat filings with no new information would certainly count as disruptive behavior, and grounds for a block.
3. Probation for new admins: This is listed at
   WP:PEREN#Hierarchical structures
   as a perennial proposal. The reason given there for why it's not going to fly is better than what I could say:

   It's confusing; if we can't trust people to use their tools sensibly, they don't become admins period. A "partial admin" process would at least double the already considerable frictional effort expended at WP:RFA, as users debate who gets full sysop powers versus who gets only partial abilities.

So, to sum up: I probably missed some of the preconditions that were listed above. If so, I bet they can be resolved through judicious use of

Ok, I'm done ranting now. You can start ripping apart my logic. Cheers!--

For the second point we could have something similar to the way the English legal system works; retrials are only allowed with significant new information, or new offences. If admin X has an RfDA get snowed out but a few weeks later some additional information turns up on his/her misbehavior the clerks can decide whether it is sufficient to justify allowing a new request (I'm sure J Delanoy will have something to say about that being as clerks are mere community members). Ironholds (talk) 17:38, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

That's pretty much the point of number 2 above, yes. You've also reminded me about a third point to refute: the need for clerks. Rfa has no clerks that I'm aware of.

mover

, but not a shaker 17:57, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

J.Delanoy: Surely if you do not trust the community you should immediately resign! After all, they elected you :P. Your points are good, and anything that limits the amount of bureaucracy involved in the process is a good thing. I do worry about requests being removed by yes-men of the admin in question, or kept through the complaints of supporters of the requester, but I'm sure the involved crat can deal with that quite easily should it arise. Ironholds (talk) 18:02, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you are right, I don't know. I'll have to think about it. I always try to do what I think is right, and I cannot stand the idea of being desysopped for doing so. I just have no confidence that trivial requests will not be shot down. During the 4chan raid a couple of days ago, it got as high as 35 reversions per minute. In my rush to try to keep up, I unquestionably made many mistakes accidentally reverting legitimate edits. I IARed with nearly every block I laid down (i.e. no warnings, 1 warning, etc.) Those are all technically incorrect actions. Would I be brought to stand for those? I honestly would not be surprised if I were, nor would I be incredibly shocked if I was desysopped. I am, as I said, incredibly pessimistic. My RFA was greater than 90% support as Saturday began. (it started at about noon local time on a Sunday) I went to sleep Saturday night truly worried that I would wake up and find that I was failing. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 18:57, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

With regard to a member of the community clerking, I do not distrust induvidual members of the community, I am afraid of the legions of sockpuppets that would be raised in any request for de-adminship. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 19:03, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

So you trust community members to be able to deal with a complex RfDA situation but not to identify sockpuppets? Ironholds (talk) 19:09, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

In essence, I suppose yes. But it is not so much the my fear of the community's ability to detect sockpuppets as it is my fear of vandals' ability to avoid detection. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 19:42, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

That's what {{

spa}} is for; the closing bureaucrat will need to be mindful of !vote-stuffing. However, it's a threat shared by any de-admining process. EVula // talk // ☯

// 20:03, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

No, you know what, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I'm confident enough in the community that I'm willing to be the first RfDA candidate. There are obviously plenty of people that dislike me for doing my job to the best of my ability, so I'm not a lame candidate; there's an actual chance they could come out of the woodwork. I'm confident that the voices of reason will drown out those of ill intention. EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:19, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

EVula's proposal is useful, it's easy, it's common sense, and it's been proposed over and over. So far, the biggest objection I've ever heard to this is "But we can't do that- it's never been done before!" Believe it or not, this actually passes as a reasonable objection in the minds of a great many otherwise-smart editors. I've never seen a way around it. Friday (talk) 18:17, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Support for an RfC style straw poll on this, then? Ironholds (talk) 18:19, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Ironholds, I'm fine with the poll; if you decide to start it up, include a statement (tweaks are welcome): "Note: this is a

send/receive

) 19:12, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Ironholds, I guess that's a vote option: "RFDA only for people who pass RFA after this proposal passes, only to be extended to all admins after 3 months, and only if approved by the entire community at that time". Another option: "RFDA only for people who pass RFA after this proposal passes, never to be extended to admins who pass before that time". (That actually might work: the theory would be that you'd get the benefits to RFA ... easier to pass, and we get valuable feedback to the RFA process from the RFDA's ... and the things discussed at RFDA would give Arbcom a stronger sense of what the community expects from admins, which would probably make it easier for them to justify desysopping troublesome admins.) - Dan

send/receive

) 19:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think polls are needed. If the crats decided among themselves to entertain requests for removing adminship, that's all that is needed. Certainly they shouldn't do so over significant and reasonable objections from the community, but I think that trying to get the community to actively approve such a thing will only lead to paralysis. Friday (talk) 19:33, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that the 'crats do not have the power to desysop at the current time. Only

ARBCOM

. There have been suggestions to grant desysop power to bureaucrats, but they've been shot down every time.

@DanK55: I would oppose any sort of limitation on who the Rfda process could be used on. I highly doubt there would be an "admin strike" whatever we decide. I think adding more options to a straw poll or RfC would just confuse the issue and make it harder to reach consensus. That said, I can't stop you from offering the idea for consideration to the community in the RfC, as that's your right. I just disagree with it.--

mover

, but not a shaker 19:42, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

The crats would request a steward actually push the button, showing them where consensus had been reached on the local wiki. This is how stewards work. It's not a problem at all them not having the button themselves- this won't be happening all that often. Friday (talk) 19:44, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Correct; all the stewards need is evidence of community consensus, they won't get hung up on who is making the request. However, I'd still prefer that de-sysopping was performed on-wiki for the sake of transparency. EVula // talk // ☯ // 19:46, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

So it's in logs in the local wiki, you mean? Hmm, yeah- that would be much better than not having it in the logs. Still, the devs could easily enable this feature, right? I can't imagine it would be difficult technically. Friday (talk) 19:51, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I honestly have no clue if it's easy to do or not, but I suspect not; the changes are done on Meta, and I don't think it's easy to just view Meta's logs on another wiki. EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:05, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

It's small beer. There are workarounds. If nothing else, if someone loses the bit, set them to rollbacker or something with an appropriate summary. This way it shows up in the user rights log where it belongs. Friday (talk) 20:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Aervanath and Friday get the spirit of my initial post: we need to have a system that isn't bogged down with tacked-on ideas that, while well-meaning, warp the whole purpose of the system. Keep it simple. Clerks? Not needed. Multiple nominators just to initiate? Not needed. Probation? Not needed. (if someone screws up so seriously on their very first time out of the gate, perhaps it was a mistake to promote them at that time; we can nip it in the bud early) EVula // talk // ☯ // 19:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Set up a straw poll thingy for it and we'll see what the wider wiki world think. Ironholds (talk) 19:48, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm fine with the straw poll; I struck my suggestion for "RfDA for people who pass from now on, reevaluate in 3 months". The only vote option I'm proposing (other than "yes" and "no") is "RfDA for people whose RFA begins after this proposal passes". - Dan

send/receive

) 20:06, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I strongly support EVula's initiative and suggest you fellows get sandboxing a straw poll. Skomorokh 20:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I find this proposal disturbingly indicative of a very defensive attitude that's apparent in too many administrators. What is it that you all have to hide? Would you, Dank55, be making a similar suggestion if the propsal was to decrease the accountability of administrators, or to introduce some new admin-only function? "New button only for administrators who pass from now on." I rather doubt it. --

Fatuorum

21:06, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Heh, I was just headed over to your talk page to get your feedback, Malleus, but I see I don't need to :) I admit that my quick poll may not be giving me a correct assessment of the likely reaction of admins; we can find that out from the straw poll. But I reject the idea that I'm being defensive or vague; it's not a complicated point. 1. If 99% of Wikipedians decide that X should happen and 1% are opposed, but the 1% are responsible for a critical task and we can't figure out a way to do without them, then we have to listen to the 1% whether we want to or not, if we care what happens to Wikipedia. 2. The straw poll will give us some numbers; I don't think we're talking about 1%. 3. I'm maybe more optimistic about ArbCom than some. I think they're smart, and also very much creatures of the Wikipedian community. If we get lots of participation at RFDA, and standards for de-sysopping evolve, I think that's like to have a big impact on ArbCom's willingness to apply similar standards to current admins. - Dan

send/receive

) 21:27, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

P.S. I hereby offer to include myself as subject to RFDA if it passes by March 31 in a form that wouldn't otherwise apply to me. - Dan

send/receive

) 21:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Dan, if ordinary editors are competent enough to judge which editors ought to be made administrators without sending the encyclopaedia into a spiral, how is it that they are not competent to judge when editors ought not be administrators? Skomorokh 21:34, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that's the most concise and powerful pro-RFDA statement, Skomorokh. And, I won't be upset if EVula's recommendation is accepted (except that we need to find a way to efficiently and fairly toss SNOW cases). I'm hearing roughly 3 objections to that: 1. The problem with the logic is that it's not the same "we". "We" at RFA tends to be the same people, and the people who aren't regulars haven't so far been able to turn the process on its head; in contrast, the heavy-duty admins have already pissed off large numbers of people, and every admin I've asked is fairly certain (but possibly wrong) that RFDA will be largely inhabited by the friends and socks of the people they've pissed off. These people don't carry warning labels; we won't know who they are, and we have to allow for the possibility that they will be diligent and skillful in seeking revenge. 2. Even if that doesn't happen, the fear that it might happen, or the fear that ordinary Wikipedians will be inventing the criteria as they go along (which is the current proposal), will mean that admins think two and 3 times before performing actions. That can be a good thing ... but if only half the work gets done, we're going to start hurting, at least, that's the claim. 3. Suppose none of that is a problem; what happens when someone gets desysopped, and admins can't tell for sure why it happened? It's likely that they will stop blocking so many people; in fact, they'll stop blocking the very worst people, the ones who would be most skillful at exacting vengeance in an RFDA. - Dan

send/receive

) 21:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

"... but the 1% are responsible for a critical task and we can't figure out a way to do without them ...". There is only one "critical task" here, and it has nothing to do with whether Fred or Betty are administrators or not. That's just vanity. --

Fatuorum

01:10, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Context, please: "The straw poll will give us some numbers; I don't think we're talking about 1%". - Dan

send/receive

) 01:35, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not bothered about percentages, simply about your interpretation of "critical task". If the project were frozen tomorrow, no more edits, what would readers be likely to consider that "critical task" to have been? --

Fatuorum

01:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Errr... the blindingly obvious appears to be overlooked

Great ideas, agree desysoping should be easier, agree we need a better process for it. One tiny flaw in the plan my friends. We kind of need a volunteer to go first to see how this grand new process works in practice. Any volunteers? Time to include a criteria for desysop as Q4 if you ask me.Pedro :  Chat  20:34, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Read the above thread; EVula has graciously volunteered. History has shown asking admins to propose their own criteria to be laughable. Editors giveth, editors taketh away. Skomorokh 20:37, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not make it clear. The admins that will set up open criteria and volunteer to be re-assesed are not the ones we need to be rid of. That was my point (not expressed to well by me - it was in my head but not in my typing) Pedro :  Chat  20:40, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Ah, sorry for misunderstanding you. I interpret the current proposal quite differently. Skomorokh 20:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Err, you want to test it by trying to de-admin someone you don't think should be de-admined? Why? We don't practice deletion on perfectly good articles. Why not just try it whenever a real case comes along? Friday (talk) 20:41, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Not sure who that was to Friday, but it is my point exactly, despite my ineloquent expression. The people we need to desysop are the very people that would not accept the process and use every bit of lawyering to avoid it. The people we don't want to desysop would willingly agree to the process. Pedro :  Chat  20:44, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Pedro, does RfA not imply that the administratorship of any editor is dependent on editorial consensus? Why would admin miscreants have the right to dictate process? Skomorokh 20:49, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

On balance my friend I will not give you a list of abusive admins who would nicely wikilawyer their way around a policy / guideline / process that came after they gained th ebit. But there are plenty. RFA is a snapshot - it does not include for future removal of rights (to put it another way, when we vote for a candidate in an election we know they will only have x years before we can get rid of them - and yes RFA is not a vote but I hope you get my drift). Honest admins will subsribe willingly to desysop criteria - which means they are honest and therefore we do not need a forcible desysop process in the first place Q.E.D. Crap admins will go to every length to stop the bit being removed. Think centralised discussion on this, think wikilawyering - frankly think Wikipedia Review. I agree fully we need easy desysop - I'm pointing out we're shouting in the wind. It's not good - but it is reality. Pedro :  Chat  20:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

And I'm now offline - sorry. Pedro :  Chat  20:55, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

"Honest admins will subsribe willingly to desysop criteria..." And by implication, those that do not subscribe willingly to desysop criteria are not honest? Just asking. I don't subscribe to a desysop criteria, have never been open to recall, will never be open to recall (voluntarily), and always advise admin-candidates who email me for advice to either ignore the recall question or plainly state "No, I will not be open for recall". Now, I don't believe I'm a bad admin, I don't believe I'd be recalled, and I don't believe I have legions of enemies awaiting my downfall (maybe I'm just insanely naive), but I do believe recall has thus far provided nothing more than a spotlight for the dramawhores. That is why I am not open for recall. That, and because being an admin makes me better than everybody else. ;-) - auburnpilot talk 00:20, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I 100% agree with Auburn here. "Agree with us or you're a bad admin" is a bullying tactic. RfDA will create huge and needless drama and I believe that it will lead to almost no admins being desysopped than currently would be by ArbCom (if any). Taking away the mop is pretty serious (that it's

no big deal to have means that it's quite the big deal to take away) and if there was really a case where a majority or a supermajority of admins wanted someone desysopped I'd say that case is probably going to need ArbCom to sort out anyway. Oren0 (talk

) 08:10, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I see what you're saying, but I'm not convinced that your concerns are entirely justified. I don't think wikilawyering is a threat unless bad admins somehow collude to fix the process from the beginning. If, crudely, RfDA was a mirror of RfA in terms of levels of support needed for a change, the editors would have their say, then the bureaucrats would assess it and judge consensus. Your concerns seem more relevant to an Arbcom-type process where the technicalities of rule-breaking are important; RfA is far, far less legalistic. Skomorokh 21:10, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

The biggest difference between my proposed RfDA system and the current RfA system (aside from the minor detail of one providing sysop and the other taking it away) is that, while a candidate must accept their RfA for it to continue, there is no such step for an RfDA. There will need to be sort of check to make sure that the candidate is at least aware of the RfDA, if for no other reason so that they can defend themselves against bogus claims (or explain their actions of the claims have merit). But Pedro's concern about the bad apples trying to cover their ass is a very real one once there's a system in place for them to lose their bit; we should accept no administrator that has lost the faith of the community. If a sysop silences (or at least tries to silence) an editor attempting to have the demoted, that'd be additional fuel for the fire, and they'll be gone within a week. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:47, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Same idea, different approach

I recently found this discussion, and felt it would be good for me to add my opinion here.

For starters, I'm not sure how making a desysop of an administrator an easy endeavor will be to the benefit of the project - in fact, it would be easy to game such a system. If it's easy to be desysopped, then there will undoubtedly be editors who gnome RfDA who support a desysop of an admin for disagreements they have with them. The system should be stringent, because a desysop should ideally only happen when an administrator really (excuse my language) fucks up the trust of the community. Additionally, having a lenient desysop system in place could potentially lead to the site losing more and more admins every week. Not a desirable result by any means, and a result that, were we to implement a desysop process of this sort, should definitely be avoided.

Another concern is the level of dramaz it will probably provoke. Think of it - an admin being discussed for a desysop. Lots of people will come to express their viewpoints and rabble on whether or not they should be de-admined. It could well turn into a witch-hunt process if it isn't set to some form of structure.

To introduce something like this, we will need to make it so that a very clear consensus supports a desysop of the contributor. It can't just be the "higher than 75% is usually a pass" thing we use at RfA; it has to be something more in alignment with the consensus required for an admin to be given 'cratship, I'm thinking 90% or higher with no major opposers results in desysop, 85-90% being a general discretionary range. And lower than that, the editor remains a sysop.

Secondly, regarding opening a request to desysop an editor shortly after a successful RfA, I disagree with that. If it's serious abuse, rest assured it will be dealt with by a stewart (sometimes even Jimbo himself). If it's occasional misuse, than it might or might not turn out to be a concern in the long run. I recommend having a minimum time limit since being sysopped for an RfDA to take place so the sysop will have time to prove themselves as an admin. I'm thinking 3 months.

Thirdly, I suggest having a number of editors (I'm thinking 5-7) in good standing (minimum at possibly 3000 edits, no recent blocks, etc.) to certify the necessity of desysopping the administrator before it goes live, to avoid an editor throwing it at an admin they dislike. Sort of like how an RfC needs users certifying the basis for the dispute.

Thoughts?

Have you read my comments above at

mover

, but not a shaker 06:33, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I read your first point, prior to posting. I posted this when I was about to sleep and haven't gotten around to updating this until now. They aren't wrong, in fact your second point is true - I should have thought of that. :)

Actually, to be honest with you, I don't think this will work with regards to RfA being easier to pass. I get the feeling opposers will still keep their ridiculous rationale's for what they see to be a truly superb choice for adminship, possibly with a more "let's stop the potential bad admins today so we don't have to go through that process tomorrow" approach.

Additionally, I don't like the idea of making it easy to desysop admins. If it's too easy, then the whole process may result in the loss of several competent admins. I stand by the opinion that there has to be a clear consensus that the editor cannot remain a sysop. I also think there should be more than one nom so it's not just an editor with a sour taste - if just one nom were required, then the whole page might be overcrowded with desysop requests. Too many, and it may become too hard, that much I agree with.

But that's just my opinion. It could be wrong in practise.

Wait, you're saying that if 84% of the community think someone should be desyssoped that's not enough people? That's ridiculous. Theaad min in question is obviously not trusted.--Patton^t/c 11:38, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, actually, I should have said "80-85%" being discretionary. My opinion is that the consensus should be extremely clear that the community does not trust the admin in question - large (if not almost unanimous) portion of participants endorsing desysop with few particularly strongly opposing. 84% speaks to me that the community has generally lost confidence in the admin, yet there are probably a few significant arguments from people who endorse keeping the editor sysopped. In my ideal process, that would likely be a tally that would result in desysop, at the closer's discretion.

Talk

) 07:32, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Another proposal

Oddly enough, it seems EVula and I (along with a group of others, most actively

The proposal we (and sorry if I use I occasionally) have set up at User:Hersfold/Admin recall mimics RfA, but has a few more rules added to prevent the torch-and-pitchfork crowd Jdelanoy mentioned in his long comment four sections up. In a nutshell:

• A editor who meets certain basic criteria to ensure an understanding of policy requests a recall
• It's reviewed by a crat and two other admins to make sure it's a reasonable request - NOT whether or not the complaint is desysoppable (made that word up)
• For a period of five days, anyone meeting that same basic criteria is free to discuss the reason behind the recall and related issues.
• After five days of discussion, administrators vote to determine if the recalled admin should be desysopped. A simple majority would be enough to do so.

Before everyone freaks about about the admin-only thing (as almost everyone I've spoken to has so far until I've explained it), there is a reason for this, and it's the same reason Jdelanoy pointed out. A simple RfA process cannot control the mob of angry editors, vandals, and sockpuppets, without setting the bar so insanely high it's unreachable and giving the closing crat a migraine to last a year. By controlling who has a say in things, we know that the people commenting have a basic grounding in policy, sort of understand what adminship is like, and aren't entirely hell-bent on getting revenge against the admin who deleted my article, the asshole. It's still wide open to suggestions and improvements, of course, and I'd invite people to review and comment either here or on

• The admin-only thing would be completely unacceptable to me. Unless you're also going to argue that only admins can vote in RfAs as well? That would at least have the virtue of making your position look consistent. --
  Fatuorum
  20:20, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• The admin-only voting is sort of up in the air. I was originally somewhat leery of it myself, but I believe it is an important thing to at the very least consider, as it would help insulate the recalled admin against angry editors who may not be amenable to reason. An alternative, which has been proposed, would be to allow editors who meet a more restrictive eligibility requirement (at least 6 months and 1000 edits, for example, instead of the 2 months and 500 edits needed to comment) to vote as well, and increase the percentage needed for desysop an admin closer to that of RfA, 75-80%. The problems with that is the closing crat would have to put a little more effort into reviewing more votes, the vote would be much more heated, and the closings could be a bit more subjective if the percentage is in that gray area from 70-80%. Both methods have their advantages and disadvantages; personally, I think that since administrators are appointed by the community to act on their behalf in regards to controversial situations, I feel this could be added to that list of controversial situations administrators would be expected to deal with.
  a/c
  ) 22:29, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• Pesonally I feel that the last body that can be trusted to make decisions about the alleged misconduct of a member of the police force is the police force. ( Please, I beg you, don't give me any of that "janitor" bullshit. ;-) ) --
  Fatuorum
  23:08, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Well, the alternative is that mobs would demand to lynch every admin who deletes a decorative fair use image. Currently, there is no process at all. With admins policing their own, there it least is a process, even though something more inclusive would be preferable. --B (talk) 23:17, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• Saying it's so doesn't make it so. You are hypothesing, based on your own fears about what might happen. It equally might not happen though. It's a curious anomaly though, don't you think, that administrators seem not to trust the electorate who granted them their powers in the first place? Sad, too. --
  Fatuorum
  23:23, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
• There is no difference between hypothesizing that something may happen or that something may not happen. You are hypothesizing that it will not happen, I am assuming that it will happen. Your argument there is moot. Also, the reason I trust the community to grant administrators their rights is because there is no logical scenario where a vandal would create sockpuppets to get a good admin candidate voted in. However, you cannot deny that there would be a very compelling reason for a sockpuppeteer to attempt to get an admin desysopped. Thus, it is not that I do not trust the community, it is the fact that I have great confidence in the abilities of sockpuppeteers. If we made RfDA identical to RfA - in et, no requirements to vote beyond having an account - the system would be abused to utterly ridiculous levels. On the other hand, I agree that it is not a good idea to only let administrators vote in an RfDA. I think finding a happy medium between total anarchy and cabalism is the solution. I would not object to a proposal to implement Wikipedia:Requests for de-adminship if, and only if, there is some basic criteria that must be met in order to vote in it. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 23:40, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• We could use similar criteria to that we use for the ArbCom elections. Something like "600 edits before six months ago, and 60 edits within the last six months." Cheers, — Jake Wartenberg 03:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Wait so all non admins are guilty of being sockpuppets of vandals untill proven innocent in an RFA? Sounds accurate to me...--Patton^t/c 11:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Yet another proposal

The most pragmatic one. At the end of the day, any de-sysop discussion is taken to

This is the only one I could see supporting. It works on any other wiki, it should be used here. Synergy 20:24, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Stewards don't decide the result of discussions though. Majorly talk 20:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

It is even written into the Stewards policy that they don't (and won't) decide. - auburnpilot talk 20:26, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, make it "valid consensus" then. -

Mailer Diablo

20:32, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry. I took it to mean that consensus would be derived from the discussion (painfully or blatantly obvious). If we needed to, we could give the appropriate discretionary threshold for such a task and submit it to where it would go anyway, meta. The medium is more or less trivial right now, just that a process be under way, and no more stagnation. Synergy 20:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• Wikipedia is supposed to be a cluocracy. Anything which has even the slightest chance of being gamed, sockpuppeted, meatpuppeted or in sundry other ways abused in order to gain advantage in content disputes, will be. That is why many of the busiest admins are among the most vocal opponents of proposals like this: they know how easy it is to recruit a mob of disgruntled people, grudge-bearers and other malcontents. Please feel free to cite an example of an admin who has been let off by ArbCom despite compelling evidence of ongoing problematic behaviour. I have seen a number of admins desysopped in my time here, and in each case the arbitrators acted on the kinds of complaints this process is apparently designed to address. I've also seen a lot of cases where ArbCom has doused the flaming torches, broken the pitchforks in two and sent the mob home. The major problem is that most such cases are retaliatory, not preventive. Guy (Help!) 23:58, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

There are a number of admins who I don' trust, but who have never done anything really controversial, I just don't think they're fit to be admins and their attitudes are bad. I don't think I'd request their desyssopship but still it's food ofr thought.--Patton^t/c 11:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)