Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation/Archive 52
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 45 | ← | Archive 50 | Archive 51 | Archive 52 | Archive 53 | Archive 54 |
Surnames and categories
The disambiguation article
Should the page be removed from the category, or should it remain? Painting17 (talk) 00:40, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- Remove, as the family is not a defining characteristic of the name. It's members can be on the page.—Bagumba (talk) 00:51, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for the quick response! I agree that it should be removed, as per WP:DBC Painting17 (talk) 01:01, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- Note that a ) 05:16, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- What Bagumba said. WP:DBC doesn't apply. Narky Blert (talk) 07:06, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- What Bagumba said.
- Note that a ) 05:16, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for the quick response! I agree that it should be removed, as per
Requested move discussion in progress
An editor has requested that Fucking be moved to Fucking (disambiguation). Please join the discussion at Talk:Fucking#Requested move 28 August 2021. Thank you. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:59, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
Michael Lindsay
Hello, it seems to me that Michael Lindsay, 2nd Baron Lindsay of Birker is at least as notable as the anime voice actor Michael Lindsay. Since Lord Lindsay used "Michael Lindsay" as a journalist and academic (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/china-quarterly/article/abs/unknown-war-north-china-19371945-by-michael-lindsay-london-bergstrom-and-boyle-books-ltd-1975-112-pp-595/66CACFCAD9B326516610E5D06512D9AE), it seems to me that entering "Michael Lindsay" should go to disambiguation page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Lindsay_(disambiguation) rather than to the actor. It made me assume today there was no page for the journalist before further research revealed the page with his aristocratic title (which he only inherited after he had written several works) Sheijiashaojun (talk) 09:27, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
- primary topic. But is there a primary topic here? If we assume that Michael Lindsay-Hogg is rarely referred to as "Michael Lindsay", then page views suggest the voice actor to be much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined. He also dominates search results from Google and other sources. Enduring notability and educational value is less clear, but he's been active since 1981. The voice actor has twice as many incoming links as the baron, and they seem correct. I'd say the current page organisation is sound, but moving the dab to the base name would be a reasonable alternative. Certes (talk) 10:38, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
Gestalt
I invite members of this WikiProject to participate at Talk:Gestalt#Whether to include certain entries. The issue is whether the entries identifiable from this edit should or should not be included on the DAB page. Narky Blert (talk) 19:38, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
Rebecca Brown (author)
- Rebecca Brown (author) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Rebecca Brown (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
There has been confusion about the article Rebecca Brown (author). Again and again, people try to insert stuff about some doctor by the same name who has delusions about Satanic conspiracies and wrote a book about it. Once, the whole article was replaced. Should there be a red link in Rebecca Brown for the Satanism woman? A link to the dismbiguation page at the top of Rebecca Brown (author)? Both? I guess you people will know the best solution better than I would. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:00, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- Red links in those cases are generally not suitable per ) 08:03, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- Several books, actually. I see what you mean - her article in NWSA Journal.
- I can't find any mention of her in WP; and per notability); but blacklinks are fine on DAB pages so long as there's a DABMENTION and some useful info at the other end. Narky Blert (talk) 08:42, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- Brown Satanist did make some splash in 1980s. this (BTW, is answers.org a reliable source?) gives the following refs:
- “Drugs, Demons & Delusions, The ‘Amazing’ Saga of Rebecca and Elaine” by G. Richard Fisher, Paul R. Blizard and M. Kurt Goedelman from The Quarterly Journal of Personal Freedom Outreach. Vol. 9, No. 4, October-December 1989. Editor: Keith A. Morse.
- “Doctor Accused of Using Drugs to Treat ‘Demons'” by Gerry LaFollette from the Indianapolis News, March 16, 1984.
- “‘Demons vs. Demerol’ Doctor Will Get Pre-Hearing Exam” by Jane Stegemiller from the Indianapolis News, May 18, 1984.
- “Excessive drug prescription, State board revokes doctor’s license” from the Indianapolis Star, September 21, 1984.
- “Physician’s Bizarre Behavior Related” by Jane Stegemiller from the Indianapolis News, September 21, 1984.
- as well as some primary sources as a furthr support of the above.
- In addition I found a couple of interesting refs:
- James R. Lewis, Satanism Today p. 303
- It says, in part, that Brown's book Prepare for War was recommended to police as a reference on how to identify Sanatism
- "Science teacher Steven Arizmendi allegedly sells Junior High School 220 students book about Satan"
- Dr. Rebecca Brown A Letter from Peter Hoover to a Friend about Rebecca Brown, published at a Christian publisher,Scroll Publishing Co, webpage
- https://www.harvestwarriors.com/ :
- https://www.harvestwarriors.com/about-us/ Harvest Warriors is a spirit filled Christian ministry Led by Rev. Daniel Yoder and his wife Rebecca (Brown) Yoder, M.D. This dynamic couple minister together as a team to boldly teach biblical truths with an authority based on their own extensive and unique experiences.
- Rebecca (Brown) Yoder, M.D.: "In over twenty years of ministry, Dr. Brown has lead many people out of hard-core Satanism and all types of occult bondage, including Eastern mysticism and New Age philosophy, and into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Rebecca is a skilled warrior. Her teaching opens the understanding of the listener or reader to the reality of the spiritual realm and makes the difficult subject of spiritual warfare easy to understand. Dr. Rebecca Brown has authored three best-selling books, He Came To Set The Captives Free, Prepare For War, and Becoming A Vessel of Honor In The Master’s Service. She has also co-authored Unbroken Curses – Hidden Source of Trouble In The Christian’s Life, and the soon to be released book Warriors."
- " Her counsel is often sought by professionals in many different fields in addition her books are utilized by various law enforcement officials."
- My friends, on Tuesday, June 23, 2020, our beloved Rebecca passed into the arms of our Savior. - Rev. Daniel Yoder
- James R. Lewis, Satanism Today p. 303
- So it looks like we can concoct a reasonable bio, Rebecca (Brown) Yoder, who wrote a couple more books, to be prevented from getting into Rebecca Brown (author) . Lembit Staan (talk) 19:37, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- P.S. OMG : Rebecca Brown Fan Clube Brasil 3,711 Followers · Writer · HarvestWarriors.com Lembit Staan (talk) 19:53, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
- Good research! Answers.org is a sensible-looking Christian apologetics site. We can certainly use it for its citations. The link in answers.org to WP:REFUND of that article in case there's anything useful to be gleaned from it (though I suspect there may not be); this link looks as if it could be a scrape. Narky Blert (talk) 09:50, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
- Direct link: http://pfo.org/Curse%20Theology.pdf. (Google links add a tracker, and this one randomly includes an offensive word.) Certes (talk) 10:52, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
- Good research! Answers.org is a sensible-looking Christian apologetics site. We can certainly use it for its citations. The link in answers.org to
- Obituary here: https://www.rollerfuneralhomes.com/services.asp?locid=21&page=odetail&id=55783 - might be a useful source for date of birth etc. PamD 14:00, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
- So, who will volunteer to revive the bio? I am asking because WP:REFUND will put the deleted article in the user's space and we have to know where it will be. I am not volunteering myself because I am a non-native speaker, and I am having difficulties writing larger texts. But I will contribute to its content. Lembit Staan (talk)
- I've volunteered to host a copy of the 2014 article for a short time at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion#Rebecca Brown (Christian author). Narky Blert (talk) 20:14, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
- An admin was understandably reluctant to restore the article in any form - but has helpfully extracted a bunch of citations from it, possibly added as a WP:HEY attempt during the AFD. At first glance, they all look potentially usable; some have already been listed here, but others are new. Narky Blert (talk) 08:26, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- I'm sure you wouldn't dream of reading the deleted article. Certes (talk) 12:26, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- As Mark Twain wisely said, An uploaded pic of genitalia isn't just for your birthday, it's for life. Narky Blert (talk) 23:58, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
- Restoring is handy to look into article history. We know that the version you cite is available in wikipedia rip-offs. Lembit Staan (talk) 18:55, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- I'm sure you wouldn't dream of reading the deleted article. Certes (talk) 12:26, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
- An admin was understandably reluctant to restore the article in any form - but has helpfully extracted a bunch of citations from it, possibly added as a
- I've volunteered to host a copy of the 2014 article for a short time at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion#Rebecca Brown (Christian author). Narky Blert (talk) 20:14, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
- So, who will volunteer to revive the bio? I am asking because
- Brown Satanist did make some splash in 1980s. this (BTW, is answers.org a reliable source?) gives the following refs:
- Several books, actually. I see what you mean - her article in
John Young/John Youngs
There are currently two articles
But there are also several "John Young" (without the s) articles disambiguated at
I'm thinking this is the type of thing where
- TWODABS is often misapplied; I think you mean WP:ONEOTHER.
- I agree that this is a good candidate for a DAB page - per TWODABS. 85 and 17 views in the last 30 days doesn't suggest a striking WP:PTOPIC; and who knows how many of those 17 were by readers who'd gone to the other page first? A link to the as-yet uncreated John Youngs (disambiguation) from DAB page John Youngwould help navigation for any reader who'd landed on the latter page better than two see-alsos.
- I'd suggest (minister) as qualifier for the page currently at the basename. I checked the inlinks to John Youngs, and all are correct. They'll need to be updated at the same time any change is made. I say - go for it. Narky Blert (talk) 19:19, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
- I did indeed mean ) 21:31, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
- Also John William Theodore Youngs. Tassedethe (talk) 22:53, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Done. Please have a look and feel free to correct anything I missed. TJRC (talk) 00:53, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
- Looks good to me. My search had turned up a couple of typos (Youngs' for Young's), but no other people except the too-remote Thomas Anthony John Youngs. Narky Blert (talk) 07:18, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
Should people with the proper name 'Foo' be listed in the Foo (disambiguation) page, or only in the Foo (name) article?
I have been recurrently confounded by DAB pages whose title is a personal name, yet do not link to the most notable people named that way. Rather, the reader is supposed to find these in the Foo (name) article, and whether they get there from the DAB page or not seems to be entirely left over to chance.
Is there any guideline on this? I'm currently struggling with Omar (disambiguation) (see my query on the talk page), but I'd like a more general reference for what to do in this kind of situation.
Thanks for your input, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 17:39, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- @) 17:50, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- YES that's extremely useful advice. Together with )
Requested move at Talk:Bapu#Requested move 2 October 2021
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Bapu#Requested move 2 October 2021 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vpab15 (talk) 15:05, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Item on Ken Crawford
Can someone look at
- @Tassedethe: This edit war may have ended (I've been keeping an eye), because the editor in question has now written the article. Narky Blert (talk) 06:40, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
Misdirected link
In the list of possible articles, the Psyche that refers to Rohde's book has a link to the article above it in the list. I suspect there isn't an article on Rohde's book as such (it is not linked in the article on Rohde himself). But I could not see how to edit the link out. Ed Brandon (talk) 17:08, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
- Done I removed the incorrect link and linked the author's article in the description.—ShelfSkewed Talk 17:18, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
- Also, finding that Psyche (book) had been redirected to the author's article, I moved the edit history to a further disambiguated title and redirected Psyche (book) to Psyche (and made the appropriate changes there).—ShelfSkewed Talk 17:38, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
Logbook
- @WP:G14 (neither has any history worth keeping). I think we're done here. Narky Blert (talk) 08:57, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
Mass creation of WP:DABNAME redirects
Hi, I was think of running a bot task for creating DABNAME redirects. So far, I've created (semi-automatically) ~1000 redirects, checking ~5000 disambiguation pages. What are your thoughts? ― Qwerfjkltalk 20:14, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
- I would just make sure to let the pages sit for a few days before making an incoming redirect, in case the disambiguation is reverted or moved in favor of a primary topic. BD2412 T 20:46, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
- To expand on the process I use to get these redirects, I got a list of disambiguation pages, appended (disambiguation) (checking if they already contain disambiguation), then check if they exist and create them if not. See User:Qwerfjkl/sandbox for an example. @BD2412, It would be fairly easy to manually remove recently created disambiguation pages from the list. ― Qwerfjkltalk 07:23, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Also, any errors should show up at Special:BrokenRedirects. ― Qwerfjkltalk 07:24, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- I monitor WP:RFD has taught me that it's fruitless trying to get (disambiguation) redirects to SIAs, name pages, BCAs, lists and the like deleted. There are always some editors who see no problem; it's difficult enough trying to get downright errors like (disambigaution) deleted.) Narky Blert (talk) 08:52, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
- I monitor
- Is it wise to check for any (qualifier), or do we want redirects such as Herald (newspaper) (disambiguation)? Certes (talk) 12:40, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- I dislike many of the pages which get categorised into Category:Disambiguation pages with (qualified) titles (but not all, some are unavoidable), and have merged some back into the basename DAB, and moved others where the qualifier should have been (disambiguation) in the first place; but while such pages exist, the (disambiguation) redirect is needed. Narky Blert (talk) 18:45, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- This would be fairly easy to do either way. ― Qwerfjkltalk 18:50, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- @R'n'B: I have a vague sense that this may be something that we were previously doing and stopped doing. Can you comment? I just want to be sure. BD2412 T 19:27, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- User:RussBot already does this. See Železno (disambiguation) for a recent example. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 19:40, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- @R'n'B: I have a vague sense that this may be something that we were previously doing and stopped doing. Can you comment? I just want to be sure. BD2412 T 19:27, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- This would be fairly easy to do either way. ― Qwerfjkltalk 18:50, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- I dislike many of the pages which get categorised into Category:Disambiguation pages with (qualified) titles (but not all, some are unavoidable), and have merged some back into the basename DAB, and moved others where the qualifier should have been (disambiguation) in the first place; but while such pages exist, the (disambiguation) redirect is needed. Narky Blert (talk) 18:45, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Dabfix Broken
Clicking on the "Open Dabfix" or "Random Cleanup" buttons redirects to an unregistered and parked domain Bryan (talk) 13:01, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
- Fixed in User:Dispenser/MOS:DAB stats. Thanks for the report. Certes (talk) 13:25, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
Disambiguation pages in a list article
Is it standard practice to use a disambiguation page in a list to substitute for listing the articles individually even when there are only two or three articles on the disamb page? For example in Lancaster (surname), the disamb redirect "Mark Lancaster (disambiguation), multiple people" is used to substitute the two articles, Mark Lancaster, Baron Lancaster of Kimbolton and Mark Lancaster (artist). This seems to me to be making it more difficult for the reader to find the articles they want for little gain. If a list article is becoming unwieldy, and/or if there are many articles on the disamb page, as in the case with List of people with surname Brown and the disamb pages Aaron Brown, Adam Brown, Alex Brown, etc, listed at List_of_people_with_surname_Brown#Disambiguation_pages, then using that system seems appropriate. But for disamb pages with less than five entries, I am unsure of the benefits.
If this matter has been previously discussed, and consensus is to include disamb pages of less than five articles in a list article, then fine - it's just that this is not an area I travel in frequently, and it looks a little unwieldy to me. I have notified Wikipedia:WikiProject Lists and Wikipedia:WikiProject Anthroponymy (as it seems to be mainly lists of people's names where this happens) of this discussion. SilkTork (talk) 13:31, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
- I'd also welcome comments on a related practice: transcluding the hndis within the name list, such as Melanie Bernier in Bernier. Certes (talk) 13:54, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
- That makes sense to me as both entries in Melanie Bernier are displayed in Bernier, and only Melanie Bernier would need to be updated. That would work better than adding Melanie Bernier (disambiguation) to Bernier. I should think that as long as there is a consensus number agreed (say less than five) then transclusion could be used for lower numbers, and the disamb redirect for higher numbers. SilkTork (talk) 14:16, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
- I'd go with three as the limit (i.e. less than four). Transclusion can be confusing to new editors who don't understand that the syntax signifies that there is an article to be edited at that title. Note the opposite extreme case, List of people with surname Smith, where all ambiguous variations are listed at the top, and the main list only contains unambiguous names. BD2412 T 19:23, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
- I think that's a critical point to make that transclusions can be confusing, and not just to new editors. Some pages which use a number of transclusions, such as Portals, or Wikipedia:Good article criteria can be demanding for non-technically minded editors to cope with. However, I think the example given of the use in Bernier is fairly modest and could be picked up by the sort of people who are willing to go through the Wikipedia learning curve of dealing with our layouts and language. Not a discussion for this page, but it might be useful for pages which use transclusions to have a Page notice note saying that the page uses transclusions, with a link to Help:Transclusion. SilkTork (talk) 20:24, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
- Transcluding (as opposed to linking) a DAB page is a very bad idea indeed. The {{dab}} tag is imported along with the entries; so that e.g. a {{surname}} page becomes {{surname}} + {{hndis}}, with the {{hndis}} tag in the middle of the text; and any previously-correct links to the surname page are flagged as errors by User:DPL bot and appear in DPwL. The problem can be tricky to locate if you haven't seen it before, especially on large pages. Narky Blert (talk) 09:13, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
- By default, yes, and I've seen such a mess happen. Melanie Bernier prevents this with <noinclude> tags, but modifying the transcluded page is not ideal, especially if something else wants to transclude a different part of it. One alternative is to transclude just the list entries from the unmodified hndis with something like
{{excerpt|Melanie Bernier|only=list|hat=no}}
:
- By default, yes, and I've seen such a mess happen. Melanie Bernier prevents this with <noinclude> tags, but modifying the transcluded page is not ideal, especially if something else wants to transclude a different part of it. One alternative is to transclude just the list entries from the unmodified hndis with something like
- I'd go with three as the limit (i.e. less than four). Transclusion can be confusing to new editors who don't understand that the syntax signifies that there is an article to be edited at that title. Note the opposite extreme case, List of people with surname Smith, where all ambiguous variations are listed at the top, and the main list only contains unambiguous names. BD2412 T 19:23, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
- That makes sense to me as both entries in Melanie Bernier are displayed in Bernier, and only Melanie Bernier would need to be updated. That would work better than adding Melanie Bernier (disambiguation) to Bernier. I should think that as long as there is a consensus number agreed (say less than five) then transclusion could be used for lower numbers, and the disamb redirect for higher numbers. SilkTork (talk) 14:16, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
- Mélanie Bernier (born 1985), French actress
- Melanie Bernier (ski mountaineer) (born 1981), Canadian ski mountaineer
- As a mnemonic aid, we could wrap that in a simple new template such as
{{transclude list|Melanie Bernier}}
. That might clarify what is happening, at the expense of extra software, bureaucracy and complication. Certes (talk) 11:48, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
- As a mnemonic aid, we could wrap that in a simple new template such as
- As for linking to full names on surname pages, I greatly prefer linking through the (disambiguation) qualifier rather than to the individual entries in all cases. So would you, if you'd ever spent time devising a suitable qualifier for an ambiguous name, only to have it turn blue because it was listed on the {{surname}} page but not the {{hndis}}. I've very probably created redlinks when we had existing articles because of that. I expect to find the article I want on a DAB page not an SIA. Narky Blert (talk) 09:13, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
- "I expect to find the article I want on a DAB page not an SIA." That's an interesting comment. My assumption is that people are not looking for or searching by Dab pages - that they land on them because their search has failed (they want Mélanie Bernier, but type in Melanie Bernier). But people would be using a SIA for particular research; either deliberately as in "Her name is Bernier, and she is a French actress, so I'll find her on Bernier", or by default in the use of just the search term Bernier. Or am I misunderstanding the use of DAB pages and SIAs? SilkTork (talk) 09:59, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
- Mélanie Bernier (born 1985), French actress
- Melanie Bernier (ski mountaineer) (born 1981), Canadian ski mountaineer
- That's easy to use, and much easier to understand. {{Transclude list|Melanie Bernier}} v {{:Melanie Bernier}}. No need to create a new disamb page and then redirect it. I'm all for supporting it, though would like to hear what objections people may have. SilkTork (talk) 10:48, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- The real benefit is not having to modify the transcluded dab by adding tags that might get removed or break other transclusions. If anything, I find my proposed syntax slightly less intuitive as it involves remembering a template name. However, it does make sense if we've slipped into the mindset of "braces means template" rather than "braces means transclusion with template becoming the default namespace". I've also rewritten the template to use a simple match on the first list in the dab rather than the overkill of using Module:Excerpt, and to avoid list gaps and subsequent lists such as "See also". Certes (talk) 12:35, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- That's easy to use, and much easier to understand. {{Transclude list|Melanie Bernier}} v {{:Melanie Bernier}}. No need to create a new disamb page and then redirect it. I'm all for supporting it, though would like to hear what objections people may have. SilkTork (talk) 10:48, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- If a reader goes to a surname page, they will probably be looking for a specific person of that surname: a 19C poet or a 20C palaeontologist or whatever, after seeing a reference somewhere to "writers influenced by Xyz" or "Xyz's work in South America" etc. It is very unhelpful if they find a surname page full of links to disambiguation pages so that they cannot just scan down looking for poets, or palaeontologists, of roughly the known period but have to click out to "Anne Xyz (disambiguation)" and umpteen other pages. Whether it's done by using a sophisticated sort of inclusion system, or just by copying information from disambiguation pages, I strongly think that we ought to show the reader all the people of that surname who have Wikipedia articles, in one list. Divide it by century, or by field of endeavour, if you like, but don't make the poor reader have to check umpteen disambiguation pages. PamD 16:11, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, that is my thinking as well. And I think we are moving toward that as a consensus. I'm OK with either individual names or the transclusion, as in both methods the reader can clearly see the name they are after, and don't need to click what may be several DAB page links to find the article they want. On the whole, I don't think we should be sending people to DAB pages if we have another option. SilkTork (talk) 17:20, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
- That sounds very sensible, with the nuance that the important thing is for the information to be in one place, which could be a dab, list or other page. Certes (talk) 22:58, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
- Or hatnote on the primary page if there are few other targets. SilkTork (talk) 10:48, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed; I forgot that one. Certes (talk) 16:29, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- I like the idea of transcluding main body-restricted contents from hndis pages onto surname pages, provided that the transclusion includes an explicit (preferably unpiped) link to the hndis page as well. (1) That would help in keeping the master record in one place. Editors wanting to add a person would be pointed to the correct page to do so. (As a DABfixer, I find myself on surname pages most often because of a vanity post like
- John Smith (born 2007), future superstar
- and very often the surname page had no link to the hndis page before I arrived. Surname pages are often very incomplete.) (2) Readers might need a variant spelling from the one they've searched for, of the kind which should only be a see-also; e.g. John Smith/John Smyth/John Smythe. (3) dab+hndis pages can contain entries which aren't valid surname page entries, because they aren't people. See e.g. Albert Hall (disambiguation).
- I like arrangement of small hndis pages by date, but not large ones; I find them difficult to scan. Field of endeavour is much easier.
- Of all languages, I find Russian surname pages the most helpfully organised: strictly alphabetical by given name and patronymic. Of course, that culture has a very standardised personal naming system, and doesn't have hypercorisms at opposite ends of the alphabet such as Bill (given name)/William and Bob (given name)/Robert. Narky Blert (talk) 20:46, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- I'm as reluctant as I know you are to add unnecessary layers of template obfuscation, but one advantage is that we can encourage a uniform treatment. If we agree with the anthroponymists on some standard layout such as
- I like the idea of transcluding main body-restricted contents from hndis pages onto surname pages, provided that the transclusion includes an explicit (preferably unpiped) link to the hndis page as well. (1) That would help in keeping the master record in one place. Editors wanting to add a person would be pointed to the correct page to do so. (As a DABfixer, I find myself on surname pages most often because of a vanity post like
- Agreed; I forgot that one. Certes (talk) 16:29, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- Or hatnote on the primary page if there are few other targets. SilkTork (talk) 10:48, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- That sounds very sensible, with the nuance that the important thing is for the information to be in one place, which could be a dab, list or other page. Certes (talk) 22:58, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, that is my thinking as well. And I think we are moving toward that as a consensus. I'm OK with either individual names or the transclusion, as in both methods the reader can clearly see the name they are after, and don't need to click what may be several DAB page links to find the article they want. On the whole, I don't think we should be sending people to DAB pages if we have another option. SilkTork (talk) 17:20, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
- Melanie Bernier (disambiguation)
- Mélanie Bernier (born 1985), French actress
- Melanie Bernier (ski mountaineer) (born 1981), Canadian ski mountaineer
- then that could all be done in one template call. We can even change our mind about the format later with one template edit. However, we should then rename the template to indicate that it's suitable for name disambiguation only and not for general-purpose list grabbing. We may also want a mechanism for grabbing a list other than the first (Connor Hall) or even multiple lists (John Street – or are two lists always too much to transclude?). Certes (talk) 23:36, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- That example is exactly the layout I have in mind. (It's the same as the one used by ruwiki; see e.g. ru:Иванов, Иван.)
- One way to keep use of the template honest might be to wrap the code inside
if incategory
so that nothing happens if it's tried on other types of page. (Fortunately, there's only one, very rare, subcategory, which never has a surname element: Category:Temple name disambiguation pages.) - Complicated cases will need special attention; but I've no idea how many of the 69,540 hndis pages that would apply to. Narky Blert (talk) 07:41, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
- The layout on the Russian page appears to be:
- then that could all be done in one template call. We can even change our mind about the format later with one template edit. However, we should then rename the template to indicate that it's suitable for name disambiguation only and not for general-purpose list grabbing. We may also want a mechanism for grabbing a list other than the first (Connor Hall) or even multiple lists (John Street – or are two lists always too much to transclude?). Certes (talk) 23:36, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- Melanie Bernier
- Mélanie Bernier (born 1985), French actress
- Melanie Bernier (born 1981), Canadian ski mountaineer
- rather than
- Melanie Bernier (disambiguation)
- Mélanie Bernier (born 1985), French actress
- Melanie Bernier (ski mountaineer) (born 1981), Canadian ski mountaineer
- We have always tended to display the disambiguation rather than pipe it, though that does tend to simply repeat information needlessly as in "ski mountaineer" mentioned twice. I think we only need the information once.
- And I don't think we need to create a disambiguation redirect page simply to put Melanie Bernier (disambiguation) instead of Melanie Bernier. We actually get more information from the use of just Melanie Bernier, as that is letting us know that Melanie Bernier is the disamb page, and that also tells us that there is no primary topic. Melanie Bernier (disambiguation) is misleading as that is not the disamb page. SilkTork (talk) 10:53, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
- Why do we need to list, and link to, the dab page, when the reader will gain nothing by going there because we have transcluded the entire contents? And I don't think we should pipe these names, just as we don't pipe other names on disambiguation or name pages: it is useful to make it crystal clear which article the link will lead to. Looking at the current "Bernier" page, the Melanies seem excellently handled, but the reader does not benefit from the listing, and link, of Gilles Bernier (disambiguation): better to unindent the pair of people named Gilles, and lose the link to the dab page. PamD 12:21, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
- The disambiguation redirect page will be created anyway. I used an unpiped link to the redirect per the second of the three cases in WP:INTDAB; it's also the way we would link to the dab if we were not transcluding its contents. To repeat the example which started this discussion, Lancaster (surname) links to Mark Lancaster (disambiguation). There are reasons for and against linking to the dab but, if we do, it should be to the ...(disambiguation) title. Certes (talk) 12:27, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
- Echoing PamD, there is no point in linking to the dab page at all. I used to prefer dab page links and then switched to just listing the name-holders out like at Satō. Adding dab page links to that article would be pointless clutter. —Xezbeth (talk) 14:03, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
- Supporting above that the DAB page is not needed on the list page once we already have the individual entries (however they are produced). In the Melanie Bernier case I'm not entirely sure we even need a DAB page (let alone two including the redirect) as there are only two people, and one of those has a different name. Melanie Bernier (ski mountaineer) is the only Melanie Bernier, and so that should be at Melanie Bernier with a natnote for those who mistyped her name to Mélanie Bernier. If both pages get the same sort of hits (ie, no primary) then having Melanie Bernier (ski mountaineer) at Melanie Bernier will save approx half the readers from an extra click. Those who want Mélanie Bernier will not have to do any extra work as they will have to click through in either case.
- I think we should always be looking at ways to reduce inconvenience to our readers, and reducing the amount of DAB pages is one of those ways. SilkTork (talk) 16:01, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
- Disambiguating by diacritics alone is dangerous. They tend to get dropped in the Anglosphere, especially North America. I've just disambiguated 5 links to Sebastián Villa. 3 had the diacritic; 2 did not. All related to the same person (who spells his name with á). Narky Blert (talk) 16:55, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
- Certes, what would happen on Bernier to {{Transclude list|Melanie Bernier}} (or {{:Melanie Bernier}}) if someone moved Melanie Bernier (ski mountaineer) to Melanie Bernier? Should there be a warning on DAB pages that are transcluded, about the consequences of moving them? SilkTork (talk) 16:05, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
- The first draft of the template doesn't handle that. The stupid computer would do as asked and show the article's first list, which happens to be Bernier's racing results. In the absence of any list, we'd get a Lua error (easily suppressed, but error messages appear on reports and can be a useful way to find problems). We can produce default text if no match is found, which could be to display no names but add the transcluding page to Category:name lists we just broke. We could also check for the transcluded page being a dab, but that's harder than it sounds and has disadvantages. Certes (talk) 16:33, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
- I'm so glad folks like you work on Wikipedia. I struggle with tech stuff. SilkTork (talk) 16:59, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
- I strongly agree that entries on surname pages (just like DAB pages, see MOS:DABPIPE) should not be piped. When adding or fixing a link, I like to copy the link directly from the relevant page; and if creating a redlink, to know what qualifier to use or avoid without opening any other pages. Narky Blert (talk) 12:46, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
- I strongly agree that entries on surname pages (just like DAB pages, see
- I'm so glad folks like you work on Wikipedia. I struggle with tech stuff. SilkTork (talk) 16:59, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
- The first draft of the template doesn't handle that. The stupid computer would do as asked and show the article's first list, which happens to be Bernier's racing results. In the absence of any list, we'd get a Lua error (easily suppressed, but error messages appear on reports and can be a useful way to find problems). We can produce default text if no match is found, which could be to display no names but add the transcluding page to Category:name lists we just broke. We could also check for the transcluded page being a dab, but that's harder than it sounds and has disadvantages. Certes (talk) 16:33, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
The advantage to adding an unpiped link to the DAB page is twofold. (1) It helps readers and editors find variant spellings. (2) It tells editors to add a new entry to the DAB page, not just the surname page (which happens a lot, in both directions). Narky Blert (talk) 12:46, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that the link should be unpiped, and would add that it should end in (disambiguation). That's normally a redirect like Mark Lancaster (disambiguation) but is occasionally an actual dab like Albert Hall (disambiguation). We also need to consider cases such as George Canning (disambiguation), where the primary topic is one person but we may wish to list namesakes on Canning (disambiguation). Certes (talk) 13:50, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
Announcing WikiNav, a tool to filter and display Clickstream data. It shows a monthly analysis of destinations reached by clicking on links in a mainspace page, and of sources clicked on to reach that page. (Not my work.) Certes (talk) 14:09, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Awesome. older ≠ wiser 16:08, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- I haven't dared even dream of that :) – Uanfala (talk) 23:32, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- Amazing! —bad idea15:10, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
There's a proposal floating around Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lists#Index of Country-related articles that may be of interest to some members of this project. – Uanfala (talk) 20:45, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Help with fixing dab
I moved
- @Bison X: I started the process but soon found that many of those links are pre-1964 and clearly refer to different leagues. Please can you check that I have picked the correct historic league in these edits:
- changed to talk) 13:32, 26 December 2021 (UTC))
- changed to talk) 13:32, 26 December 2021 (UTC))
- changed to talk) 13:32, 26 December 2021 (UTC))
- changed to
- Articles listed two or three times contained links which appeared to refer to two or three different historic leagues. If you can look at the remaining links and fix those which are pre-1964 manually, that would help a non-baseball fan such as myself to continue the work. Certes (talk) 01:27, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Southern League (1964–2020) in May 2020; those links were sometimes to a section, Southern League (baseball)#History. So that would mean the time frames would be:
- 1885–1899 link to Southern League (1885–1899)
- 1901–1919 link to Southern Association
- 1904–1963 link to South Atlantic League (1904–1963)
- 1964–2020 link to Southern League (1964–2020)
- So 1904–1919 overlap & need to be checked. I'll go thru the above links tomorrow when I have more time. Thanks for looking into this, I didn't realize it was so convoluted. Also, I'll install DisamAssist & try it out. Rgrds. --talk) 04:38, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- Such changes are often simple if the start position is correct but become convoluted once we realise that most of the work is in fixing existing errors. DisamAssist is wonderful but the standard version can only fix links to dabs (including via redirects); these links currently lead to an article. JWB are more complex to use but either is very useful for bulk changing, say, [[Southern League (baseball)#History| to [[South Atlantic League (1904–1963)| if we can be sure that's the right target. I've changed templates such as Template:Southern League (baseball), which should fix several links in one simple edit. Certes (talk) 14:11, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- Such changes are often simple if the start position is correct but become convoluted once we realise that most of the work is in fixing existing errors. DisamAssist is wonderful but the standard version can only fix links to dabs (including via redirects); these links currently lead to an article.
- @
OK, it appears "Southern League (baseball)" is being used for
Requested move at Talk:Belgian (disambiguation)#Requested move 25 December 2021
Turnaa - move proposal
I started a move proposal at Talk: Turnaa that may be of interest. Leschnei (talk) 19:21, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- It was an improper move by a new user. Page reverted back to talk) 22:54, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
- I suspect this was stage one of a failed attempt to promote the deleted Turna (hip-hop musician) to a primary topic at the base name. Certes (talk) 23:35, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
Foo (Discombobulation)
Do we have an effective boilerplate RfD rationale for getting rid of redirects like
) 21:39, 24 December 2021 (UTC)- People sometimes cite WP:RFDOUTCOMES, where it belongs. – Uanfala (talk)23:45, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
Consensus needed before adding a hatnote through {{editsemiprotected}} ?
I was notified at talk:Fergie (singer) that a new local consensus is needed for a disambiguation hatnote. Is this correct? The target article clearly lists "Fergie" as an alternate name of the subject in the article lede. -- 65.92.246.142 (talk) 18:31, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
- Guidelines are guidelines. How they apply to individual cases is something to be discussed on the article's talk page if there's any disagreement. How likely is it that someone landing on "Fergie (singer)" (as opposed to "Fergie", a dab page) really wants Dennis Frederiksen, whose article says he is "occasionally" credited as Fergie? Reasonable people might disagree about the answer. Station1 (talk) 03:59, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
- There should be a consensus if there is any disagreement. I looked at your proposal and didn't think it was appropriate, because Fergie and Dennis Frederiksen are not confusing. I added a different hatnote; if there is any objection to that it should be discussed on the article TP. MB 04:02, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
- Editors are encourged to ) 04:13, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
Malay names in dab
- ) 06:55, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
- 08:13, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
- Hi guys, I did think when I was creating the very long list that perhaps they belonged somewhere else. So I've moved all the Malay ones to their own article. It would be nice to find reliable sources for the Malay article stating that it's a common name and explaining that people with it often also get a second name. I had a look at the sources given at Malaysian_names#Malay_names but I didn't find anything that I could use. Dr. Vogel (talk) 12:00, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
- 08:13, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
Burkina Faso attacks
Should Arbinda attacks and Ouagadougou attack be dabs or SIAs? Their main use is in Template:Burkina Faso attacks. Certes (talk) 00:49, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
There was a time when I could fix this disambiguation page myself. Please would a member of this project care to fix it? The issue arises in the article RNLB Mary Stanford (ON 733), when it relates the notable Daunt Lightship rescue. The Innisfallen (ship) was the passenger ferry from Cork to Fishguard, she interrupted her voyage to see if she could help. She "stood by". The problem is in RNLB Mary Stanford (ON 733) which reads:
- Mary Stanford made several attempts to get a steel cable aboard the Comet. Every time they did, a large wave crashed the ships further apart and the cable snapped. When darkness fell, Mary Stanford headed for Cobh to get stronger cables. The Innisfallen and HMS Tenedos (H04) stood by.
The wikilink for Innisfallen gives the abbey Innisfallen when it should give the ship. Even though there is a disambiguation. Thanks Lugnad (talk) 19:50, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
- It's now been fixed to use ) 00:51, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement!
Hello, |
Infinity
Infinity (disambiguation) has collected a large amount of material. I'd like some kind of advice on whether it's OK as-is, whether some material should be split out (like the music/songs), or whether some material doesn't belong here.
There's a lot here, because not only is infinity highly ambiguous in mathematics, Infinity (philosophy) contains a similar number of distinct ideas, and the name is highly popular for companies, songs, etc.
CRGreathouse (t | c) 21:46, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
- We could weed out a few ) 22:02, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
King Charles
I was surprised to find that King Charles isn't a list of monarchs named King Charles. It's just a list of disambiguation pages, each of which is a list of dukes, counts, and other non-kings, with a few kings also included. Often the kings aren't identified as such, for example one of the entries at Charles II is "Charles II of Sweden or Charles VIII of Sweden (1409–1470)", and we have to click through to the target page to discover that he was a king. The result is that if you're looking for a particular King Charles, and you know the country but not his number, the King Charles page isn't much help. GA-RT-22 (talk) 15:31, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
- I think that's a good point. Someone reading either fact or fiction about a country's past may find the monarch of the time referred to as "King Charles", un-numbered, and we shouldn't make it difficult for them to find the monarch they want. Wikipedia seems to have a variety of ways to do this - see King George, King John, King William etc. This particular reader above would have best served if they'd wanted a George: the King George dab page has a list of monarchs A-z by country. There are separate dab pages such as George III (disambiguation) (the British king being primary topic). I suggest we should make sure that monarchs are findable both by regnal number (whether or not intermingled with numbered dukes etc too) and by kingdom name (King Xyz of Foo) - we would provide a redirect from either, if they were unique, so should provide a simple dab page route where we can't use a redirect. PamD 17:24, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
- Something like King George would have been ideal for me. I was trying to track a line in an English drinking song that talks about "when Charles was still King." I knew it was English and 17th or 18th century. But I had to check both List of English monarchs and List of British monarchs to find him, after giving up on King Charles. GA-RT-22 (talk) 17:52, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
- I hope we already provide some sort of route from those terms. A problem is that, for terms with no primary topic, that route is necessarily indirect via a dab. That dab may also include articles which match the dab's title but not the reader's original term. In a sense it's no different from King (film) taking me to a page with many meanings of King, most unrelated to films, but at least there I only need to peruse #Films. Certes (talk) 18:02, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
Discussion to talk about "See also" sections of "Just_n"
I have started a discussion to talk about what the "See also" sections of various pages should contain. Please visit this section to participate in the discussion. --Jax 0677 (talk) 22:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
G14 speedy deletions
Speedy deletion criterion
- Disambiguation pages that have titles ending in "(disambiguation)" but disambiguate only one extant Wikipedia page.
- Regardless of title, disambiguation pages that disambiguate zero extant Wikipedia pages.
- A redirect that ends in "(disambiguation)" but does not redirect to a disambiguation page or a page that performs a disambiguation-like function.
I've sometimes kept an eye on the pages that get tagged for G14 deletion, and if I recall correctly, virtually all of the ones I've seen fall into two categories:
- Dab pages or redirects that have been rendered unnecessary because of primary topic moves, or, occasionally, the deletion of the linked articles. G14 is almost always applied correctly here, and the taggings are usually done by experienced dab editors (Shhhnotsoloud springs to mind).
- Disambiguation pages with two or more links which appear not at the start of each line, but in the description - G14 very clearly doesn't apply here, and very often the dab pages are useful. These taggings and subsequent deletions are normally performed by NPP reviewers and admins who are apparently unaware of the finer points in the guidelines, like WP:DABRED.
Is my experience representative? If it is, then maybe we need to amend the guidelines so that valid dab pages don't get deleted any more (#2 above), but the usual clean-up is still possible (#1). How about dropping the list of the specific criteria for page title and number of links (evidently, people don't read them), and instead having something simpler, like some carefully thought out variation on "Disambiguation pages that are no longer necessary"? – Uanfala (talk) 12:26, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
- I've had a look at the recent G14 deletions, and half of them were inappropriate uses of the criterion. I've followed that up at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#Rethinking G14. You're welcome to join the discussion there. – Uanfala (talk) 16:00, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- A couple of points which might clutter the open discussion on the CSD page.
- G14 #1 is problematic ("only one extant Wikipedia page"). Imagine a WP:PTOPIC, and a DAB page containing two or more full title matches supported only by DABMENTIONs. This isn't that uncommon with creative works. Such DAB pages are useful; not everyone knows how to search WP if there's a page with the identical title. See e.g. Love Songfor a page with multiple valid blacklinks.
- I dislike "disambiguation-like function" in G14 #3, but that's for another day.
- WP:ONEOTHER DAB pages are not caught by G14, and probably should continue not to be. I fall across these from time to time, and the existing procedure seems to work reasonably well (though there is a (small) backlog in Category:Disambiguation pages containing one non-primary topic). Nil Einneseems already to have an eye on most of the ones I find. I strongly dislike the suggestion in ONEOTHER that such a DAB page should be kept if "there could reasonably be other topics ambiguous with the title on Wikipedia [...] in the future" (emphasis added).
- I suspect that overenthusiastic past use of G14 may explain the existence of WP:GEOLAND.
- Not only G14 but also PROD can be misused. Earlier today, I dePRODded Lord Darcy. The rationale had been that only one article on the page was about a lord and the other six were about barons, and were therefore not title matches. Well, if Shakespeare referred to William Sandys, 1st Baron Sandys as "Lord Sandys" in Henry VIII, that's good enough for me (let alone modern usage).
- Narky Blert (alt) (talk) 17:59, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- The advice is clear but not always followed, even by editors I normally trust without checking. Do we need a bot to create a daily report of pages with G14 tags which might not merit them, or even all pages with G14 tags (there don't seem to be many)? Or would they have been deleted before we have time to save them? Certes (talk) 18:53, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- That may be useful (an alternative is for us to keep an eye on Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as unnecessary disambiguation pages, making sure that the option for the watchlist to show page categorisation is turned on). This is not going to solve everything though: G14 deletions are sometimes performed directly, without anyone first tagging the page. I think the low quality of the work around G14 deletions is down to the fact that most of them are performed by admins who don't otherwise have any experience with disambiguation, so that even obvious things (like, making sure that after a dab page is gone, its navigational function is still carried out by hatnotes or redirects) are rarely done. I'm getting the impression that the underlying problem is that some have come to see G14 as one of the easy criteria, like G7 or G13, where you can rack up deletions and do "useful" work without sparing much thought or effort, and without risking any headaches. – Uanfala (talk) 15:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- A related issue is failure to add the {{other uses}} hatnote after a move to PTOPIC, leaving the DAB page dangling. I correct 1 or 2 of these a week (though I haven't been checking for the last 2 months). Narky Blert (alt) (talk) 18:01, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- That may be useful (an alternative is for us to keep an eye on Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as unnecessary disambiguation pages, making sure that the option for the watchlist to show page categorisation is turned on). This is not going to solve everything though: G14 deletions are sometimes performed directly, without anyone first tagging the page. I think the low quality of the work around G14 deletions is down to the fact that most of them are performed by admins who don't otherwise have any experience with disambiguation, so that even obvious things (like, making sure that after a dab page is gone, its navigational function is still carried out by hatnotes or redirects) are rarely done. I'm getting the impression that the underlying problem is that some have come to see G14 as one of the easy criteria, like G7 or G13, where you can rack up deletions and do "useful" work without sparing much thought or effort, and without risking any headaches. – Uanfala (talk) 15:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
What should we do with cases like Julie Su (disambiguation)? In case it's gone, it was a three-entry dab but was overwritten by a redirect to Julie Su and, in the same edit, nominated for speedy deletion as a redirect to a non-dab.Reverted to the dab; question withdrawn. Certes (talk) 22:48, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Narky Blert: There is ambiguity in the word "page" - does a redirect count as a page? If it does, then G14 #1 is not problematic, because DABMENTIONs are just as valid as articles then. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:25, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
- That exact wording is not technically correct, which may be behind some of the inappropriate uses of G14. Dabs don't disambiguate pages, they disambiguate ambiguous terms, where those terms refer to topics that are covered on Wikipedia, whether in dedicated articles, in individual article section, across several articles.... – Uanfala (talk) 02:47, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
Where do I go to ask for feedback for a disambiguation page proposal?
Right now there are two articles for Japanese biologists named Hiroshi Inoue:
- @) 11:49, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Certes: Thanks! Do you think I should use Hiroshi Inoue (bryologist) since it already exists or create Hiroshi Inoue (botanist)? And also to clarify, I would only fix incoming links in the article space right? As in I shouldn't go into others' UserSpaces, right? Thanks! I might just be bold and do this, but I wanted confirmation that the bryologist is not the primary topic, where would I go for a second opinion? Umimmak (talk) 20:11, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- If you think there may be a primary topic, a requested move is the way to go. That might also attract advice on the best new title. (botanist) is a far more common qualifier but (bryologist) is not unprecedented: we have Karl Müller (bryologist), Robert Braithwaite (bryologist) and a redirect Max Fleischer (bryologist). If the article does move, it's normal to change links in the main namespace plus Template:, Category:, Portal: and File: if you're feeling diligent. We usually leave User: and talk pages alone. DisamAssist limits itself to the right namespaces. Certes (talk) 20:40, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- Okay thanks, I figured to be safe I'll do a requested move: Talk:Hiroshi Inoue#Requested move 8 February 2022. Thanks for your help! Umimmak (talk) 03:18, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- If you think there may be a primary topic, a
- @Certes: Thanks! Do you think I should use Hiroshi Inoue (bryologist) since it already exists or create Hiroshi Inoue (botanist)? And also to clarify, I would only fix incoming links in the article space right? As in I shouldn't go into others' UserSpaces, right? Thanks! I might just be bold and do this, but I wanted confirmation that the bryologist is not the primary topic, where would I go for a second opinion? Umimmak (talk) 20:11, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, Hiroshi Inoue now is a {{hndis}} linking to Hiroshi Inoue (entomologist) and Hiroshi Inoue (bryologist). The one possibly remaining issue is the presence of Category:Taxa named by Hiroshi Inoue. This is used for taxa named by the entomologist, and there does not yet seem to be a corresponding category for the bryologist (although he also named taxa with articles on Wikipedia). But I'm thinking that this doesn't need to be fixed quite yet since there's only one category. Umimmak (talk) 21:08, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Ice age (disambiguation)#Requested move 9 February 2022
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Ice age (disambiguation)#Requested move 9 February 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vpab15 (talk) 21:35, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
Question about DAB links on surname pages
I've searched the archives about this one, and looked for a MOS page for a rule, but cannot find anything specific. There seem to be differing schools of thought about whether to list (not a real example) all Joe Bloggses underneath Joe Bloggs (disambiguation) on the Bloggs (surname) page. I can see an argument for both, but I usually remove the duplicate listing because someone said so in a discussion somewhere ages ago, and it does make some sense to keep the authoritative complete list in one place. However one editor did point out that it's much easier to find, e.g. J. Bloggs, or Dr Bloggs or Rev. Bloggs, on the surname page when they are all listed in the same place. Then you get pages like Wade (surname) where some of the DAB pages (e.g. for Michael Wade) are not even mentioned. I'm not about to go changing a whole lot of entries now, but was just wondering if there is an actual rule on this, or whether it's just one of those things that differ on different pages, based on length or other criteria? (Although I do think that in the Wade case, it should at least be consistent within one article. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 08:09, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
- See also Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation/Archive 52#Disambiguation pages in a list article, where some solutions were discussed, including transcluding the sublist. Certes (talk) 11:58, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for that, WP:SIA? At least that the link should include (disambiguation), and that where a DAB exists, the link should be included, whether or not the names are listed as well (referring to Wade, mentioned above). It looks as if it will continue to be a judgement call in many cases, perhaps based on sheer numbers. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 01:46, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
- One option is to start with the style essay WP:PROPOSAL:) 04:02, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
Most commonly, a new policy or guideline documents existing practices, rather than proposing a change to what experienced editors already choose to do.
—Bagumba (talk- Belated thanks, Bagumba. I will add it to my list and see if and when I have time to return to this. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 07:35, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
- One option is to start with the style essay
- Thanks for that,
I've imprudently gone well beyond 3R here. There might actually be something to disambiguate in the topics being added though on the face of it look like nothing more than partial title matches; however, discussion involves being on the receiving end of walls of text from editor with a definite POV, which given current events might even be part of some sort of misinformation about the extent of what is Russia. older ≠ wiser 22:48, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- Take to ANI. They are PTMs, and no one calling you or Clarityfiend vandals can be acting in good faith. —bad idea14:38, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
Categories
A while back, I came upon {{
- There are no others presented as a sidebar. (quarry:query/62757 shows the three plain ones. The commented-out change shows Anastasia equally quickly. A query which shows both is theoretically easy; in practice it takes forever to run. SQL is like that.) Several sidebar templates share their titles with given names but are on other topics, e.g., {{Augustus}}, {{Katrina}}, {{Mary}}. Certes (talk) 21:39, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- WP:WAWARD) 23:21, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- I suspect there are others hiding somewhere. Maybe they're not sidebars. Ronald-name}} which also include given names in a navbox style. I've modified the query which now lists nearly 300 navboxes sharing titles with given names, but most if not all are false positives: places ({{Abra}}), celebrity mononyms ({{Adele}}), characters ({{Luigi}}), etc. Certes (talk) 23:46, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- WP:WAWARD) 23:52, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure which format is better. Maybe ask WikiProject Anthroponymy? As for the new category, we probably want a new Category:Given name templates, but that's one for the category experts. I've pruned the list to 155 by excluding "Navbox musical artist" templates and displayed a couple of categories each is in. Having manually checked the few that aren't in obviously non-human categories, I think we can conclude that there are no further names there. Certes (talk) 00:02, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- I posted at WP:WAWARD) 04:58, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- I posted at
- I'm not sure which format is better. Maybe ask WikiProject Anthroponymy? As for the new category, we probably want a new Category:Given name templates, but that's one for the category experts. I've pruned the list to 155 by excluding "Navbox musical artist" templates and displayed a couple of categories each is in. Having manually checked the few that aren't in obviously non-human categories, I think we can conclude that there are no further names there. Certes (talk) 00:02, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- Something just happened to the WP:WAWARD) 23:58, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
- Oops. Looks like someone just added it to a commonly used template. Certes (talk) 00:02, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- @TonyTheTiger: Fixed. The category in Template:Anthony etc. needs to go in a noinclude tag, to stop all the articles which transclude Anthony from going into the surname template category. Certes (talk) 00:23, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thx.-WP:WAWARD) 04:58, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thx.-
- I suspect there are others hiding somewhere. Maybe they're not sidebars.
- WP:WAWARD) 18:57, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- I've been changing the scope of the query rather than expanding it. The version you looked at excludes Charles etc. because it's looking for navboxes rather than sidebars. In Quarry's SQL implementation, either search is efficient but looking for both in a single query takes far longer than two separate queries, so to save both server load and my time I've been doing separate searches. {{Given name}} adds pages to Category:Given names by default, so searching for just the category should catch both. Certes (talk) 19:21, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- One request if adding more of these templates: please don't link to disambiguation pages directly. If they really must go in the template, they should be linked via the (disambiguation) redirect per WP:INTDAB. That prevents every article using the template from appearing on disambiguation link error reports. Certes (talk) 19:25, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- Do mean to avoid all dab pages or all pages with (disambiguation) in the page name?-WP:WAWARD) 22:29, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think reading that section explains it.--WP:WAWARD) 22:32, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think reading that section explains it.--
- Do mean to avoid all dab pages or all pages with (disambiguation) in the page name?-
Disambiguate links to Ice Age
After a recent move Ice Age was made a dab page. There are still a few hundred links to it. A lot of them refer to "the Ice Age", which I think should link to Last Glacial Period, but it could be that it doesn't apply to all cases. Any help or suggestions would be welcome. For more info, see Talk:Ice_Age#Update_all_Ice_Age_links_to_Last_Glacial_Period. Thanks. Vpab15 (talk) 18:59, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
Places on name page
I just came across Haydar, which is tagged as a given name page, but I am finding several things confusing there, namely: it includes surnames; it includes places; it includes lists in sections which also have their own name articles (e.g. Haider); and both Haydar (disambiguation) and Haidar (disambiguation) link to the page. Does this need a bit of a cleanup and rearranging? Laterthanyouthink (talk) 08:01, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
- When name pages list things other than names, options include 1) placing ) 08:13, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
- Some of those other items seems like ) 08:13, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
- Well, that turned out to be a can of worms!! I've spent ages trying to untangle all kinds of variants of Haydar, Hayder, Hyder, Heider, Haidar and others, so that they link in a logical way where useful, with name pages separate from DAB pages in some cases, etc. Might not be perfect or complete, but hopefully an improvement on what was there. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 11:31, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Hero City
We have a new dab, which might work better at a BCA. Please comment at Talk:Hero City. Certes (talk) 14:37, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Why does this link to the DAB page?
I've just got a DAB notification about the Northern Argus link in
- There was a second link in the next citation. Fixed. —ShelfSkewed Talk 06:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- Ah - doh! Thanks ShelfSkewed. I have Covid at the moment so I think I'll just blame that. :-) Laterthanyouthink (talk) 06:29, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Laterthanyouthink: If you're copy-pasting the citations that Trove handily pre-formats for Wikipedia, beware that many of their wikilinks are wrong. Some link to disambiguation pages, some to the wrong paper (e.g. Trove id 1297 links The Daily Telegraph (London) for The Daily Telegraph (Sydney)) and others to a completely different topic (e.g. 439 links Arrow (missile) for The Arrow (newspaper).) These need manual correction. Certes (talk) 11:55, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, thanks Certes - I've noticed this before and usually check them. Just somehow managed to miss that one first time and then couldn't work out what ws was going on when I kept looking at the wrong one! Laterthanyouthink (talk) 12:09, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- I've compiled User:Certes/Trove: a list of Trove wikilinks which vary from ours. Corrections and additions welcome. I really wish we could get the NLA to fix these! Certes (talk) 12:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, thanks Certes - I've noticed this before and usually check them. Just somehow managed to miss that one first time and then couldn't work out what ws was going on when I kept looking at the wrong one! Laterthanyouthink (talk) 12:09, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- OK, thanks for that work - I will make a note of it. I seem to recall being part of a discussion about Trove wikilinks and other issues somewhere before. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 09:07, 17 March 2022 (UTC)