Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/August 2015

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The usage and primary topic of Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind is under discussion, see talk:Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind (manga) -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 04:02, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The current MoS-JA specifies we should use the FAMILY–GIVEN name order for those born before 1868, and GIVEN–FAMILY for those born 1868 or later, unless trumped by

Should MoS-JA be amended to allow uniform name orders in cases like this? And how far should this be taken—should an article on Japanese history have both "Tokugawa Ieyasu" and "Shinzō Abe"? How broad should the grey zones be? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, "mixed" articles are obviously inconsistent and confusing. The MoS should be a "Manual of Style", and the first rule of style (George Orwell, I think) is "Break any of these rules rather than commit a barbarity". The guideline of pre/post 1868 is not necessarily one I like, but it is clear and reasoned, but it should be used to determine the name order used within an article. I also think that every article involving Japanese names should have a headnote explaining what is going on. If there is an article about Shinzo Abe's comments on Tokugawa Ieyasu, well, again the headnote should explain. Imaginatorium (talk) 03:51, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

• So every Japan-related article would have a hatnote that explains the 1868 issue? IMO, that would put an absurd amount of emphasis on a convention that only Wikipedia follows. Other encyclopedias use family name-given name across the board. In my view, we should do the same. Fernando Danger (talk) 05:18, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
  • No—Britannica uses both: Kazuo Ohno vs Mishima Yukio; Abe Shinzo in his own article, but Shinzo Abe when mentioned in others. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:41, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Having said that, I'm not opposed to changing the MoS to FAMILY–GIVEN across the board, but that should be determined in a different RfC. Let's please not muddy the waters. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:44, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
    • Both of your examples are items that were added recently, I believe as part of the 2014 supplement. Otherwise, I think they are pretty consistent. Fernando Danger (talk) 06:11, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
      • (edit conflict) Was Hideyo Noguchi? Hiroshi Nakajima? Haruki Murakami? Ichiro Suzuki? Kenji Ekuan? Hideko Takamine? Hiroyasu Shimizu? But seriously, like I said, this is not the place for this discussion. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:41, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
        • That's bizarre. It's not like that on the DVD. Everyone is given family name first. Fernando Danger (talk) 08:08, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
  • The hatnote should say something like: "In this article Japanese names are written in Family-Given order" (or vv), with a link to an article that explains the source of confusion. This is not a question of putting emphasis on a convention, it is about letting the intelligent but not Japan-informed reader know what is going on. If there have to be some names one way, others the reverse, then this really should be clarified. Incidentally, a much simpler approach really is to do something like underlining the family name (a passport convention at least at some time). Imaginatorium (talk) 06:31, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
    • There is an international standard (if only I knew the name for it) where surnames are capitalized in citations. It seems pretty common in parts of Europe, and I've seen it with some frequency in English documents from China and Japan. I doubt it would gain traction in running prose on Wikipedia, but I think it would be an elegant solution to introduce names as {{smallcaps|Tsuge}} Yoshiharu → Tsuge Yoshiharu. Perhaps even a dedicated template? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 07:04, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
      • It appears the documentation for Template:Smallcaps even talks about this. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 07:14, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

• I believe that something should be added to the MoS stating that uniformity of name order within an article is preferred, with the order used for a given article determined by its primary subject(s). It wouldn't be a perfect rule (I'll admit that seeing "Ieyasu Tokugawa" would be a little jarring) but I think it would be an improvement over the status quo. I suspect that incremental improvement is the best that can be aimed for; so long as the MoS calls for using different orders in different situations we'll always have edge cases. Cckerberos (talk) 08:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

  • You'd be surprised how common "Ieyasu Tokugawa" actually is—even in an Ngram it shows up with surprising frequency. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:42, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

  • The Shingikai mentioned allcaps for FN, and you see it sometimes in bibiliographies and on meishi. If we did that I agree that it could get annoying in body text. Maybe only the first instance in a biographical article? And if we did that we should use a template (ultimately a CSS style) because actual allcaps would mess up the metadata. About the order, I agree with Imaginatorium that names (at least modern ones) should usually have an order hatnote. In most cases {{Japanese name}} should do. – Margin1522 (talk) 09:23, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
    • It's too bad {{Surname}} is taken—that's be the easiest template name. Maybe {{Surname caps}}? And restrict it to the first instance—or even restrict it to the first instance of any Japanese name, with the understanding that other Japanese names in the same article follow the same convention. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:53, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
      • In what circumstance is {{
        talk
        ) 02:04, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
        • @Msmarmalade: in the crcumstance I gave above: Where Hakutei ISHII is given as the son of ISHII Teiko. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 03:13, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
• I too would support a Wikipedia decree of one or the other across the encyclopedia, but as long as the order differs from one article to another, I think it ought to vary within an article as well. The reason is that the rule appears to be one not of writing style, but of naming style. The idea appears to be that the writer doesn't choose a person's name, the person or the society in which he lived does. Saying what we call a person depends upon who else is mentioned in the same article seems pretty odd to me. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 02:21, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
  • In the case of the Ishiis mentioned above, neither yet has an English Wikipedia article. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:57, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
• I adamantly oppose using ALLCAPS or smallcaps for any naming. I think the current guideline is very clear, and gives preference to the most commonly used in reliable sources, even if it is someone born prior to 1868. If it can be established in reliable sources that the 1868 divide no longer exists (it did almost 10 years ago when this MOS was established), then we can just go with
  Join WP Japan
  ! 03:22, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree completely. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 12:06, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
• Follow
  WP:LOCALCONSENSUS). Thereafter, use a consistent format within the article. And, no, don't use small-caps or all-caps. In reference citations, use |last= and |first= to obviate the issue there.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢
   ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  01:44, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
  • • Join WP Japan
      ! 17:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
  • @SMcCandlish: this is not a LOCALCONSENSUS issue, and there is far more to the issue than you're aware, and I think eveyone here will assure you that using COMMONNAME for evey single last article will result in thousands of endless talkpage battles over what's "really" the COMMONNAME for any particular figure: for isntance, the current prime minister. Is his COMMONNAME "Shinzo Abe", because that's what the vast majority of widely-read newssources use (and thus what most readers will expect)? Or is it "Abe Shinzō", because that's what the vast majority of specialized articles (and thus RSes) use? And repeat for every single Japanese bio article—and it's guaranteeed to be fight after fight as each figure has a different balance of newssources vs specialized sources. Every "solution" to this problem is "wrong" in some important way, and we're trying to figure out the most workable solution to avoid the endless talkpage bickering. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:14, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
    • You're making the frequent but serious mistake in supposing that, for COMMONNAME purposes, news sources are not reliable, or at least are less reliable than specialist ones. The exact opposite is the case. The very point of
      WT:AT.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢
       ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
      • @SMcCandlish: You're making the frequent but serious mistake in supposing that, for COMMONNAME purposes, news sources are not reliable, or at least are less reliable than specialist ones.: I made no such supposition—I presented both POVs as an example of where this will quickly boil down to endless "discussions" about which name order is best for each article, depending on the mix of newssources vs academic sources and the feelings of involved editors as to which deserves more weight. You'll notice I took no position myself. You're no doubt unfamiliar with the endless talkpage battles over name order that already occur with Japanese names—taking away a default will only multiply and lengthen those—and I doubt you'll find a WP:JAPAN regular who disagrees with that assertion. COMMONNAME utterly fails with Japanese names, as both configurations are typically very common—sometimes even on the same page. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:56, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
      • @
        WP:V trump a WP-invented "convention" based on an arbitrary date.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢
         ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  16:50, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
    • Not to mention the obvious irony of using LAST= and FIRST= to clarify, um, which is last and which is first? Imaginatorium (talk) 08:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
      • Oh, we could easily solve that by adding |下= and |上= parameters. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 10:13, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
        • LOL.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
      • (
        fallacy of equivocation, in this case the changing of the definition of "first name" and "last name" on the fly to present an absurdity we can all see through. Everyone here, I think, knows full well that "first name" and "given name" are, in English, synonymous, and "last name" and "family name" and "surname" are synonymous. No one could seriously believe they refer to the order in which they appear even when we know that a particular culture uses the opposite ordering used in Western cultures. Even most school children probably would figure that out, and I see no evidence that actual WP editors are too confused to use the parameters correctly.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢
         ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
      • If you don't know enough about Japanese names to know which is surname and which is given name, perhaps you shouldn't be working on article about Japanese topics? It's really not hard to figure out. ···
        Join WP Japan
        ! 17:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
        • The irony appears to have passed you by, but we are not concerned with the problems of editors, but with the problems of readers. A passing Icelander who sees that Hakuei Ishii is described as the son of Ishii Teiko might reasonably be excused for the misunderstanding that Japanese names work like Icelandic ones, where Hans Jensson is the son of Jens Eriksson (excuse errors: I do not actually speak Icelandic). I think the convention for Chinese names is more or less universal that they are not messed with; what proportion of the population thinks that Mao Tse Tung was Mr Tung I do not know. But the fact that Chinese names have the family name first is common knowledge, and having discovered it, the problem is conquered. With Japanese names, the principle is different: just planned confusion: names are or are not written backwards, and only an expert can tell. That is why, I believe, WP should provide explicit help on every relevant article. Imaginatorium (talk) 17:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
          • There's no irony involved. I was speaking of editors, but the same applies to readers. If we are providing both names, it doesn't matter which order they are in as anyone who spends an hour or even less looking into topics about a Japanese person will be able to figure out pretty quickly which is the surname. Regarding providing help for people, we can co-opt the little ? created by the {{
            Join WP Japan
            ! 19:35, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
            • • Nihonjoe, your humour chips appear to be deactivated—the "irony" is the suggestion of using the "|last=" parameter for the part of the name that comes first (the parameter is not "|surname="). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 20:31, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
                • That's not ironic. That's just bad design on the part of the template makers. ···
                  Join WP Japan
                  ! 22:50, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
                  • You know, the real humour of the situation is that no matter how many times it's explained to you, you still don't get the joke. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:04, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
                    • I understood the attempt at humour, but I just didn't find it humourous myself. ···
                      Join WP Japan
                      ! 00:29, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
          • To get back to what User:Imaginatorium said earlier, the very problem here appears to be that we are doing something consistent with Chinese (family name first, followed by give name[s]), but not doing this for Japanese. The result is confusing to readers, and to editors not steeped in
            WP:COMMONNAME is unequivocally the other way around and be done with it. We have simple templates for the latter kind of case so that we can construct lead sentences of the form "Givenname Familyname (Japanese: Familyname Givenname) is...", thus obviating any confusion of the "This person is Japanese, so that first-occurring name is the family name, right?" variety. No problem, all fixed, please move on.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢
             ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:19, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
          • I wrote the section on naming in English for the Japanese names article. The sources I used say explicitly that the common naming of Japanese people in English is different from those of Chinese and Koreans. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:00, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
            • Many of us would like to see it go all FAMILY-GIVEN (especially those of us who live with that style day-to-day), but (a) there's much opposition to that (which is how we got here in the first place); and (b) it seems to fly right in the face of COMMONNAME, as newssources overwhelmingly use GIVEN-FAMILY. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:09, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
              • That's not entirely consistent, though. It appears to done more frequently by some English-language publishers than others, done more today than it was a few years ago, and done for some subjects more than others – possibly because the subjects favor it themselves, or because some publishers feel it's become conventional in specific contexts (e.g. for government figures and for actors). As an example,
                rely on conflicting sources that don't agree on a matter that ultimately devolves to a form of POV pushing about how Japanese names "should" be rendered by Westerners.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢
                 ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  16:50, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
                • It's not only the news, but also the vast majority of non-Japanologist/non-Japan-specialist publications use Western order for modern Japanese people. Remember that Wikipedia's audience is the average person, so the naming order should reflect what one would expect the average Joe to see. If there is a split with any subject on how many sources use Western naming order versus Japanese naming order, consider the audience of each publication. John Power wrote an article in
                  The Indexer where he says: "However, Japanese almost invariably give their names in the Western order when using Western languages. This practice, also universally followed in Western newspapers, magazines and most books, became established in the Meiji period (1868–1912), when Japan was opened up to the West." and he identifies "scholarly publications" and especially those by Japan specialists as the main exception. WhisperToMe (talk
                  ) 12:10, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• I am preparing my own proposal here. Fernando Danger (talk) 03:05, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Interesting proposal—I look forward to seeing it proposed. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 03:18, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, please ping participants in this and related discussions when you introduce that as a proposal.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:28, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

• I don't think I am knowledgeable enough to comment on best practices here; but as an intelligent reader/editor who is semi-literate in Japanese and Japanese topics and could conceivably stray into these articles -- I have on my desk a book on early Japanese art I was considering working from when I signed in today -- my thought is just that the more clarity, the better. If this requires a hatnote so be it. If the date is arbitrary perhaps this should be addressed. If the practice was brought over from articles about Chinese topics, this may be wrong. That is all. Elinruby (talk) 18:25, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

• Unarchived so that an editor can assess the consensus. Cunard (talk) 03:27, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I have some questions about the book about the Istanbul Japanese School.

• Mine, Toshirō (峰 敏朗). イスタンブール日本人学校. 峰敏朗著（
  JETRO books, 46） 日本貿易振興会, 1998.2. NCID: BA35636978. ISBN: 4822408108. See profile at CiNii
  .

Is the person who wrote the book independent of the school? Did the school have any role in producing the book? In other words would this count as a reliable, independent secondary source on Wikipedia? WhisperToMe (talk) 12:31, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Nope - according to this blurb he was the school's first principal. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 12:58, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I see. Thank you for checking! WhisperToMe (talk) 14:28, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

If it's okay, Mr. Stradivarius, there's three other sources that I'd like for you to evaluate:

• "リオ日本人学校＝総領事館内で新学期スタート＝「水害にめげず頑張ろう」." Nikkey Shimbun. April 15, 2010.
• "日本人学校の現状" (Archive). São Paulo Shimbun. 13 March 2008. Retrieved on 8 May 2015. "リオデジャネイロ日本人学校（藤内博校長）は小学部と中学部の２部構成で、それぞれ６学級の児童11人、１学級の生徒２人の計13人。 同校は60年、石川島播磨重工がイシブラス造船所に派遣された社員の子弟の企業内教育施設（日本語補習校）を開設したのが始まりで、生徒53人で授業が行われた。80年代には創立最多の約４００人の生徒数となった。しかし、94年に同造船所が閉鎖されたのを機に減少していった。"
• "リオ・デ・ジャネイロ日本人学校前校長" (Archive). Revista, Japanese Chamber of Industry and Commerce in RJ (Câmara de Comércio e Indústria Japonesa do Rio de Janeiro/リオ・デ・ジャネイロ日本商工会議所). 特集 リオ・デ・ジャネイロ日本商工会議所50周年記念誌 「創立50周年－更なる未来へ」. p. 33-35.

The two newspapers (

@WhisperToMe: What's the topic you're writing about? Associação Civil de Divulgação Cultural e Educacional Japonesa do Rio de Janeiro, or something else? — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 16:23, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

@Mr. Stradivarius: Yes, it's this topic, although the issue is actually an AFD on the Portuguese Wikipedia: pt:Wikipédia:Páginas para eliminar/Associação Civil de Divulgação Cultural e Educacional Japonesa do Rio de Janeiro. One Portuguese editor wants help in determining whether the sources meet the criteria for notability. The Portuguese criteria seem to be translations of the English ones: Critérios de notoriedade and pt:Wikipédia:Relevância. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:30, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. The two newspaper sources do indeed have significant coverage of the Rio school, and neither of the authors are named, so we should assume that the sources were both written by the newspapers' journalists and are therefore independent. The other source is primary, as the author is a former principal of the school. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 16:34, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much! I really, really appreciate it! I notified Zoldyck. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:41, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you all for your help. I will evaluate what can be done in the voting page. --Zoldyick (talk) 19:53, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

An editor stated at

It looks like the requirements vary from university to university. According to this, some Japanese universities will accept IBs only, but most also require the National Center Test of University Admissions. That's also backed up by this source. There should be quite a few other sources available in English. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 18:15, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I added the citations to the page. If there's something saying the Japanese accept Cambridge exams that would help too WhisperToMe (talk) 21:52, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi there! I'm looking for some references regarding the