Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 42

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New stub: Cannabis and sports. Any project members care to help with the Basketball section? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:50, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Another Believer, in light of the Sha'Carri Richardson banning, this is a timely article. Is that what inspired you to create it? Catalyst30 (talk) 09:07, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Catalyst30, Richardson and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cannabis#USA_Track_and_Field at WP Cannabis. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 13:05, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, Another Believer, it should have been created years back. Thanks for getting it on Wikipedia. Great job on the article! Catalyst30 (talk) 08:53, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

@Trillfendi and Muboshgu: This is a centralized discussion regarding the recent changes to the infobox at Lamar Odom regarding Queens, New York City, and U.S. Per Template:Infobox basketball biography and existing convention in NBA bios, the birthplace is typically <city>, <state>. The country is not included if it's consistent with the person's nationality.

It seems that:

1. Queens was replaced with New York City from the birthplace
2. The state New York was removed from the birthplace
3. Queens stayed for his school Christ the King, but the state New York was removed

I'm neutral of whether Queens or NYC is shown, but seems like it should be consistent for both his birthplace and school. NBA infoboxes typically alwasy include <state> for U.S. locations.—Bagumba (talk) 17:22, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

This is really a bigger issue than WP:NBA, since it's relevant for every single notable person from NYC. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:58, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

If folks want to change consensus on this could they please link the relevant guidelines supporting this? That would be helpful as this issue has been discussed many times. If there is a compelling reason to change it there needs to be some guideline-based arguments. Right now the infobox uses City, State in a consistent format and the country isn’t needed if it matches the nationality. I am very open to policy-based arguments as to why this shouldn’t be the case for an infobox (as opposed to the prose in the articles), but not just style preference arguments. Rikster2 (talk) 23:12, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I restored "

Flushing. Jweiss11 (talk

) 23:40, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

This is really a bigger issue than WP:NBA ... I dont disagree. However, I'll side with Rikster2. Unless there is evidence of a larger WP-wide consensus, I'll consider that "no consensus" on the issue, in which case a local, e.g. WP:NBA, consensus is legitimate. Sometimes we get too many cooks in the kitchen.—Bagumba (talk) 02:48, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

The

) 00:54, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Dispute with lead of Giannis Antetokounmpo

You are invited to comment at talk:Giannis_Antetokounmpo#Antetokounmpo's_nationality_in_infobox/lede.—Bagumba (talk) 06:13, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

What I'd like to know is why Kyrie Irving, Ben Simmons and Giannis Antetokounmpo are all treated differently. Folks keep shoehorning "American" into Simmons' infobox even though he has never competed w the US for FIBA events but with Irving (and Dante Exum) we don't list Australia. Seems like we are reinventing the wheel with the Giannis discussion - what is the standard by which nationalities are listed in the infobox? Rikster2 (talk)

Given the minimal input at Antetokounmpo's talk page, perhaps we never invented the wheel yet? At least on Simmons' and Irving's talk page, I don't see the topic of national team coming up before w.r.t. mention of nationality. A lot of players don't even play on a national team, so there'd need to be other criteria also.—Bagumba (talk) 08:45, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, then don’t see there is much basis to decide Giannis. Just let the loudest/most aggressive editor decide it, as it looks like has happened with Simmons. Rikster2 (talk) 11:29, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Can someone uninvolved please have a look at the recent changes at this article? The IPs are making some strange demands regarding a (largely unsourced) addition they've made, and I don't want to slip into edit warring. Thanks. Giants2008 (Talk) 13:18, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Giants2008: I reverted as unsourced and semi-protected for two weeks. This can be ironed out on the talk page, if needed. —Bagumba (talk) 14:03, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

FYI, the usual

) 04:31, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Second round draft picks

An editor has been reverting team colors and other team references in infoboxes for second round draft picks with the reasoning that they aren’t guaranteed contracts and haven’t signed. I believe that we have always included draft picks on rosters and updated info unless and until they are cut or sign elsewhere. Right now these picks have been added to official NBA rosters and many teams have held press conferences to introduce their picks (examples Isaiah Livers and Luka Garza of the Pistons for example). I figured it was better to start a convo here since I am sure this will become an edit war situation otherwise. Rikster2 (talk) 20:50, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd be consistent with all draft picks—first or second round. IIRC, players have generally been shown with their draft team unless they sign with an overseas team or they remained unsigned after the regular season starts.—Bagumba (talk) 17:58, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

This is my recollection as well. I don't remember this being an issue before this season Rikster2 (talk) 18:13, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Also complicated in that the majority of second round picks will be playing for those teams on Summer League rosters starting tomorrow. Rikster2 (talk) 18:33, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I have been removing them since a number of these players will never play for the team which drafted them. Many will likely never even sign an official contract. There is nothing guaranteed for second round draft picks. History and common sense shows that we should not be adding players to a team before they sign a contract. I wish I had been notified when this discussion began.--User:Namiba 20:44, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Just to build on my point, 5 players in the 2020 NBA draft have yet to appear in a NBA game. 2 from 2019 and 4 from 2018.--User:Namiba 20:47, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, I think I did notify you when I commented on the page protection requests. We have always carved out a signing exception for draft picks. These players are added to official NBA rosters, which has always been one of the acceptable points of proof that someone is on the team, and their acquisition is typically announced by the team which is another requirement of updating the team in the infobox, etc. There has never been any consensus that I am aware of to not update players in this narrow category (60 total people) - can you point me to one? Rikster2 (talk) 21:04, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Since you are seeking to do something other than what is always done with other players (e.g. include them in the infobox when sign a contract and officially join a team) then you should provide evidence of a consensus. Otherwise, we should treat all players the same.--User:Namiba 21:35, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Take for examples the previous second round picks of the Celtics, Yam Madar and Juhann Begarin. It has never been factually accurate to state the either play for the Celtics. We do not have a crystal ball and cannot predict who will and will not play for which team. That's not the duty of an encyclopedia.--User:Namiba 21:51, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I am not seeking to do anything different from what has been done in the past with NBA articles, big guy - you are. Draft picks live in an in-between space where they are announced by teams and then added to official rosters from the jump. It’s fine for players to show a team which has acknowledged them as part of the team unless they are waived or sign elsewhere. That reflects the reality of how the teams handle them. If you can’t find a consensus discussion to go against the years of these being handled this way, just say so. Rikster2 (talk) 22:37, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

For example, here is the Pistons official roster with all draft picks represented and here is the article where they welcome the three players to Detroit and introduce them to the media with jerseys in hand. That never happens with free agent signings where the team only acknowledges the player after signing. As I said, draftees are in a different space. Rikster2 (talk) 22:43, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Listen here, little guy, if you can find a reason to violate

WP:CRYSTAL, please let me know. If you can show a discussion where it was agreed to, please let me know buddy. If not, it's wrong to predict that they will actually join a team when they do not have a contract. It's as wrong as all those who add a free agent without a contract.--User:Namiba

22:50, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I am not violating Crystal, again, the teams themselves reflect these players on their official rosters. That ain’t predicting, it’s reflecting reality. It’s the only class of players who sit in that space. Teams don’t acknowledge affiliation with free agents at all until a signing is announced. But if you are going to enforce this stuff as if they’ve always been handled that way (they haven’t) including asking for page protection when editors just reflect the relationship the teams reflect with the players, then, yeah I think YOU need to make a better case and eatablish a consensus. Folks have been doing NbA articles for 10+ years and now you want to push this “consensus?” Sorry, you have nothing behind it. Rikster2 (talk) 22:55, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Since you are seeking to do something other than what is always done with other players (e.g. include them in the infobox when sign a contract and officially join a team) ...: Last year's #1 pick, Anthony Edwards, seems to have him as a player with Minnesota in the lead sentence and infobox since draft day, even before he actually signed. I see no evidence that there was a de facto practice to wait for draft picks to sign. At any rate, we can continue discussing what to do going forward.—Bagumba (talk) 03:24, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

If we followed your suggestion for each player, we would be adding false information to a handful of articles each year. Is that what you suggest we do? Add false information because you cannot wait until an actual contract is signed?--User:Namiba 13:50, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

How on Earth is it false information to show players as a part of a team when those teams show the player on their official rosters as part of the team? Literally all 30 NBA teams show first and second round draft picks on their official rosters today, regardless of signing status. Rikster2 (talk) 15:48, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Let's say we add this information for someone like Yam Madar, who has been under contract with an Israeli team since he was drafted by the Celtics in 2020. How does this make any sense? You seem to be ignoring the point that I made previously: there are any number of players who are drafted but never sign with a team. To show them as part of the team is simply incorrect information. Summer league is not the same as actually playing in the NBA. Why they are shown as being on a roster when they are not is not for us to decipher. We are building an encyclopedia here and are not beholden to the NBA or any other organization.--User:Namiba 16:23, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

While I don't feel particularly strong about this, I would be in favor of listing draft picks as member of the team in the infobox, since the NBA itself does this and will represent the team in Summer League. It really isn't a big seal to remove from the infobox if a player goes over to Europe for example. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 16:28, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

If we followed your suggestion ...: It wasn't a suggestion, it was an example of how it's been handled. Feel free to gain support for a new consensus.—Bagumba (talk) 16:31, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Where has this consensus been discussed and decided upon? It hasn't? Well, then it is just how you prefer to do things.--User:Namiba 16:34, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

At worst, its being discussed now. Let's see how it turns out. Cheers.—Bagumba (talk) 16:49, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

The players should be listed and linked to the team that drafted them. That was the status quo and never a problem, nor do i see one. Those are listed at the websites and most play in the Summer League, as already said.- Kante4 (talk) 20:21, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

This discussion has been open for a week, and there's no consensus to change. This should resolve edit warring at 2nd round picks like here.—Bagumba (talk) 10:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

) 18:24, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

The more I think about the achievement, the less impressive it is. If this "club" requires a minimum number of field goal attempts, why not also require a minimum number of free throw attempts? Snell only shot 11 free throws that season. 75.34.16.55 (talk) 03:07, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Was Mengke Bateer entrant of 1999 NBA draft or 1997 NBA draft?[2]--寒吉 (talk) 14:17, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Did he ever actually declare for the draft? There would have been a point at which he became automatically eligible, but I'm not sure how the rules worked at the time. (If it helps in your research, the oldest English-language sources I can find render his name as Batere Menk.) 75.34.16.55 (talk) 03:31, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Currently, all intl players need to declare. Not sure about back then.—Bagumba (talk) 17:38, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Pretty sure he was eligible in 1999. Saw an old newspaper article (see here) from then with a list of expected participants in the Desert Classic in Phoenix, which was a pre-draft event in those days. I can't find evdence that he ended up playing in the event though. Rikster2 (talk) 17:46, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

At the very least, it probably rules out 1997. If he was already a FA, he presumably wouldn't be at a draft workout.—Bagumba (talk) 18:21, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

I found an old chinese article from 聯合知識庫.

前進NBA巴特爾表現平平

NBA選秀會前三大邀請賽之一的「沙漠邀請賽」已於十七日結束，來自德州大學後衛克萊克技冠群雄，平均十三點七分、五點三個籃板，榮獲此次邀請賽「最有價值球員」，受邀參賽的大陸現役國手巴特爾表現平平，並未受太大注意。現年二十四歲的巴特爾，除了外籍球員身分在此次邀請賽引人注意，並被廣為報導外，球場上的表現並未獲得球探青睞。根據NBA規定，「外籍球員」參加選秀會有二十二歲的限制，巴特爾因為超齡，未具參加選秀會資格，不過若有球團有興趣，可以自由球員方式吸收巴特爾。

— 【記者蔡裕隆╱綜合外電報導】, 【1999-04-21/民生報/07版/籃球新聞】

The article wrote NBA had a rule in 1990s ,the international player's age over 22 would became FA, couln't join NBA draft. Mengke Bateer became FA in 1997, he didn't join 1999 NBA draft or 1997 NBA draft.--寒吉 (talk) 10:12, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Could an admin protect the Siakam article? Apparently there are rumors that he could be traded and the article has been vandalized multiple times today.--User:Namiba 21:05, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Done. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 03:20, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

You may recognize my username because I've been an advocate for this change, or at least discussion of change, for a while now. The last time our community discussed this was here, and now 2 years later I'd like to resurface some of the issues I have with the current consensus.

To be clear, I'd like to advocate for a change in consensus of the current system of when it is considered okay to update a player's page after a trade/signing is announced, especially during free agency. The discrepancy amongst some users is, of course, what is considered "Officially announced" and what is merely "reported" or "rumored". I would advice anyone that has strong opinions here to revisit the previous archived discussion that I linked above, but I will give a more brief outline of fair points FOR and AGAINST the revisiting of consensus.

Reasons FOR: Constant Edit/Revert Battles, Outdated consensus established before news traveled so fast and accurately, Extremely Reliable and Accurate "reports" from certain "non-verifiable sources" should be thought of as something I'll refer to as "Official Reports", Inconsistency across all player's pages, Inconsistency among other websites including the NBA/Team websites, too much grey area in terms of what is considered THE official announcement, generally off putting for excited and typically more novice editors who get reverted for something they truly believe is helping the website, 99% of these "Official reports" end up happening with a very low percentage of them getting rescinded (this would be the best time for an easy revert) etc.

It's silly to have Dennis Schroder listed as a free agent when the whole basketball world knows and are talking about his arrival in Boston for more than three days now (he even announced it himself). I totally understand there is current consensus that only allows for edits once its officially official and announced by the team, I understand this completely, but if we can get past this idea it really is counterintuitive to continue to battle with editors who are just trying to update player movement to depict the league in the most accurate light. To me, it shouldn't matter that "Schroder can't be listed as a Celtic, the team hasn't announced it yet" or even "Lonzo can't be on the Bulls until the moratorium is over and he can sign" (I know the moratorium take is highly controversial here) it should matter that they WILL inevitably announce it (YES I remember the Deandre Jordan situation - this was an extreme outlier). I feel as though we're nitpicking a technicality while we should focus on what team the player will be representing next year (of course players can be traded again or waived but you know what I mean here).

Reasons AGAINST: A player can't factually be considered part of a team until the team announces the move, difficult for some to understand the difference between a rumor (example: "Team 1 is clear frontrunners to sign Player 1") and an "Official report" ("Free agent BLANK has agreed to a one-year deal with Team 1")

I agree this is an encyclopedia and can only provide current and accurate data, but editing a persons page to update a player's team when it is announced by an extremely reliable non verifiable source and will almost definitely happen within a few hours/days isn't the worst thing in the world. Free agency is confusing, and when a bunch of rumors and reports are swirling around it becomes very hard to distinguish where everyone is ending up. Wikipedia is an amazing asset with a great community of editors that can keep things accurate and up to date about the current layout of the league. I think its a shame how consensus now is so hung up on a technicality that player movement cannot be updated until all the hype and excitement of a transaction has settled and while the player involved may not "factually' be a part of that team right at that moment, again, we should focus on the fact that they will be. RichieConant34 (talk) 17:38, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Sports/Handling sports transactions addresses this. It includes examples of reported deals that fell through or were just plain wrong. This covers all sports, not just the NBA. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:41, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@Muboshgu: Cool page, but this covers a total of two NBA transactions that fell through, Chris Paul in 2012 was vetoed by the league whom happened to own the Hornets at the time and Deandre Jordan who I mentioned above back in 2015. Like I said, outdated and extremely unlikely. I am specifically talking about NBA player movement to be clear as well. RichieConant34 (talk) 17:47, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

RichieConant34, it's an incomplete list, and I'm sure there's more NBA examples that haven't been logged. The point remains, though, that any deal can fall through at the last moment and it's not a done deal until it's a done deal. The NBA is not unique in this. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:53, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@Muboshgu: Yes, I never said that deals 100% of the time go through as reported, but the vast majority (I'd say more than 95% of these "official reports") come to fruition, that is my main point. RichieConant34 (talk) 17:57, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm sure that's the case, but even one report being inaccurate or premature jeopardizes

WP:V. Even one deal falling through and needing to be undone on a wiki page is one too many. – Muboshgu (talk

) 18:05, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Not really outdated. Those guys aren't actually members of that team until the deal goes through, regardless of what Woj says. Kinda like Joe Biden's page didn't get changed to show him as the president-elect until Arizona was officially called five days after the election. We knew that was a formality too. Rikster2 (talk) 17:59, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Indeed. Woj has different standards and rules than we do. He's there to break news for his job. We are

WP:NOTNEWS. – Muboshgu (talk

) 18:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

break news for his job: And Wikipedia guideline is

WP:RSBREAKING, a community standard, not just WP:NBA.—Bagumba (talk

) 00:44, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Nutshell People reach an agreement to buy a house, without formally completing the sale. People agree to get engaged, set wedding dates, but are not married yet. Most of these get completed, but nobody calls them a done deal. Don't get seduced by clickbait.—Bagumba (talk) 00:15, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I noticed that

) 18:26, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

@

talk

) 16:50, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Gotcha. His hiring might've been a short-lived rumor in the Minneapolis area and the IP got antsy to add him. Either that or it's subtle vandalism. Either way I see it was removed per lack of RS.

SportsGuy789 (talk

) 17:28, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Jersey numbers

@Inspectormusic: You've twice removed the number from Malik Monk, this last time you left a hidden comment of Do not add a number until is officially announced and confirmed by the team.[3] I'm usually the least likely person to edit new players' numbers, so maybe I'm missing something. In Monk's case, 11 is listed at https://www.nba.com/lakers/roster?ls=nav_extended_team along with a picture of him wearing 11. Is there a period when numbers on NBA.com roster lists are not reliable? Is there usually a formal press release on new numbers?—Bagumba (talk) 06:33, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

I believe by the source his number is now official, probably Joel Ayayi will use another number other than the 11 he wore all summer league, I won’t edit any more Malik Monk’s page Inspectormusic (talk) 07:04, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

However I checked all NBA teams rosters from the website and there are plenty of repeated numbers of players on many teams, and even some players listed with numbers that the team they’re playing for is a retired number, so I do indeed would be official only when the season starts in October Inspectormusic (talk) 07:10, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

I can understand a number being suspicious if it is repeated on the same team. Aside from that, what makes a number not "official" if it's listed on NBA.com?—Bagumba (talk) 08:29, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

It is tricky because when an NBA player switches teams they are usually just moved to the new team’s roster page with the old number intact. Sometimes they wear the old number but sometimes they don’t. You see these true up later as the roster is finalized. I usually take summer league numbers, Twitter number announcements, pictures, jerseys being sold in the official team store, etc. as proof the number is edit. Sometimes the signing announcement includes their number. It is also a bit compounded by free agents still being listed on rosters (this far into free agency they shouldn’t be on roster pages anymore IMO) - sometimes a new signee will be wearing a number of someone leaving the team. In the case that started the discussion, I think it’s most likely that Ayayi will be a different number as an undrafted 2-way player vs a FA vet. Rikster2 (talk) 12:14, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Got it. Considering Monk's picture has his number and there weren't any duplicates, it seemed a done deal. In any event, I'd expect an edit summary explaining why NBA.com should not be trusted in specific cases. Otherwise, it's hard to understand what is "official" and what isn't.—Bagumba (talk) 16:24, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Right, if a franchise chooses to go through the trouble of mocking up a picture of the player in a uniform then it’s probably fine. I do think that a source should ALWAYS be required if the number is retired or held by a returning veteran. I just reverted Delon Wright because number 55 is retired by his new team (Hawks) so it’s unlikely they’d issue it to a journeyman like Wright. It clearly carried over from his old team on NBA.com. Rikster2 (talk) 21:56, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Elfrid Payton is a great example of the NBA.com practice. He was number 6 for the Knicks. Now that he is with the Suns his information has been moved over to the Suns roster page with all of his Knicks info, including the number. He isn’t going to be number 6 for the Suns, that number is retired (Walter Davis). When he was with the Suns previously he was number 2. But the teams often don’t update numbers on their roster pages quickly, which is why some sort of acknowledgement of the number is best. Otherwise we are making assumptions. Rikster2 (talk) 12:45, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

@

talk

) 18:01, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

The vast majority aren’t resigning with those teams at this point. There comes a point where they just née go if their contracts are expired Rikster2 (talk) 23:22, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

I think it technically can be removed when free agency starts, but the latest I'd leave them is at start of training camp. I'll leave it to the people who do the edits there to decide.—Bagumba (talk) 02:25, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I am one of those people who edit the templates so I just did it. Rikster2 (talk) 08:11, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

@

talk

) 17:59, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

 You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:Infobox basketball biography § Use of arrows. -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:44, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

There is an issue with elements inside 'Head coaching record' table. Go to https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/page/mobile-html/Nate_McMillan?theme=dark, and under 'Head coaching record' letters 'G', 'PW', 'PL' etc remain white because of predefined inline styles: . Need to add some class name to these elements to handle them on mobile html in order to show the content correctly in iOS/Android. Is it possible to solve this in the template code?

Additional details - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T284327 VadimKovalenkoSNF (talk) 08:09, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

VadimKovalenkoSNF: It looks fine for me on iOS on a browser, so I suspect it might be an app-specific bug? I haven't see any guidelines to date where editors needed to worry about encoding specifically for apps. The table uses {{NBA coach statistics start}}, which is a simple wrapper for standard table markup; no explicit colors were specified. —Bagumba (talk) 16:24, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Hello everyone, while I do occasionally edit NBA pages, I'm not officially a member of the project. However, there is a discussion on Magic Johnson's talkpage that I would like to get some input on. The topic will also impact some NFL players as well, so I'm making a similar post on that project's talkpage. The discussion is at Talk:Magic Johnson#Championships as a minority owner. Thank you.--Rockchalk717 22:40, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

) 16:06, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Prior consensus from discussions here and here were that the league is not worth mentioning in either the opening sentence or in infoboxes.—Bagumba (talk) 16:21, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

I cleaned up all the infoboxes. –

talk

) 16:37, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

We typically use NBA.com and basketball-reference.com for a player's position. Neither of these list Pascal Siakam as a center. Omitting it would be consistent with the long-standing case of Draymond Green. For that matter, Kevin Durant spends as much time as Siakam at center, but we don't list him as one either. Pinging Black roses124, who reverted it back in for Siakam.—Bagumba (talk) 08:53, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

No. If the team doesn’t list him as such Wikipedia shouldn’t either. The fact that even basketball-reference (usually more liberal with listed positions) doesn’t either tells me it’s not the right way to go. In 2021 it just isn’t that unusual for teams to play without a center, you can’t just assume the tallest guy on the court is one. Rikster2 (talk) 13:33, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Well so far in this season siakam has only played center small sample size but still he has only played center this season Black roses124 (talk) 18:15, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

I'd at least want to see b-r.com list him as a center. He's only played 3 total games so far this season, so the small sample probably factors in to their decision.—Bagumba (talk) 18:28, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

It is exactly like the Draymond Green case, and the Warriors have still never c,aimed him as a center. On the opposite site, Kevin Love was another such case and center wasn’t added to his WP bio until the Cavs did add it to their roster. We should wait until the team actually calls him a center, otherwise highly possible they are just choosing to play without one. Rikster2 (talk) 19:25, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

I could go with b-r.com, but it seems like there's no consensus on its use, so I don't add positions that are not on nba.com, nor do I bother removing existing ones from pages that are on b-r.com but not nba.com.—Bagumba (talk) 22:58, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

I asked about this in August 2021 but nobody was interested. So I will try again – does

) 18:41, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Note Notice of this discussion has been left at Talk:Tony Snell (basketball).—Bagumba (talk) 04:52, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

The relevant guideline is

WP:ONUS: While information must be verifiable to be included in an article, not all verifiable information needs to be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article ... So far, there's been no consensus to include it.—Bagumba (talk

) 04:52, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I am the editor who re-added the info, now that it was discussed by a reliable source, which I also provided, and I am not Tbb 911 logged out. It was also discussed at USA Today, which cites CBS Sports among others. The Snell article includes highlights from particular games, which are apparently found to be noteworthy, so having an unprecedented shooting season seems noteworthy as well. And I did not include the term 50-50-100 Club in my addition. A qualifier should perhaps be added, as in the cited source, regarding his limited playing time. 2601:8C0:37F:8160:59B6:3F6D:9B0E:7BD4 (talk) 15:33, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

In fact it appears that single game highlights are a regular feature of player articles. If having one good game is deemed noteworthy and an improvement to an article, surely playing over 21 minutes a game for 47 appearances while shooting at this clip is as well. 2601:8C0:37F:8160:59B6:3F6D:9B0E:7BD4 (talk) 15:58, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, I've never heard of this so-called club before. The fact that there is one source that mentions it, which is not necessarily of the highest quality, does not merit inclusion in my opinion. We would need more sourcing to add it back. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 12:14, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Again, I did not use the term '50-50-100 club' in my addition. The source I cited is the largest daily newspaper in New Mexico, where Snell went to college, and is cited many times in that article and scores of others. Several other sources corroborated that it is an unprecedented shooting season, including USA Today and CBS Sports. If single game stats merit inclusion, how does an unprecedented season not? 2601:8C0:37F:8160:59B6:3F6D:9B0E:7BD4 (talk) 14:20, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Seeing that the IP editor is from Albuquerque, New Mexico (this is where Snell attended university) could mean that – it is someone closely connected to Snell (

talk

) 16:57, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

This is ludicrous. I'm a New Mexico Lobo fan and a fan of Tony Snell. I saw this in the newspaper and added it to his page. If you are willing to resort to ridiculous allegations, I suppose the decision here is already made. 2601:8C0:37F:8160:59B6:3F6D:9B0E:7BD4 (talk) 17:17, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Let's try to avoid this type of speculation and stick to the issue. This seems to have been a well-intentioned edit, but I think the consensus has formed that it is not notable. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 01:14, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

To be fair the 50-40-90 club isn’t really official either Naismith and FIBA page for Steve Nash don’t include 50-40-90 club member as a career highlight it’s just sort of become an unofficial official achievement I remember when kyrie made 50-40-90 nets broadcast celebrated it and ESPN did as well so if they are doing the same for this “50-50-100” club than it’s alright but the aren’t. This club is as real as the 5x5 game club except this club was highlighted by NBA official YouTube account when Jusuf Nurkic had a 5x5 game. Black roses124 (talk) 23:23, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Unrelated but should wiki start recognizing the 5x5 game club nba YouTube account celebrates players for achieving this and there are websites showing which players have done this https://5x5club.com/ Black roses124 (talk) 23:29, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

At a minimum, I'd want sufficient independent coverage from multiple independent, reliable sources. That's rule out the NBA and the dedicated website.—Bagumba (talk) 06:21, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Any thoughts on Chris Duarte's birthplace? The infobox and the early life section contradict themselves. The recent edit history is mostly people switching his birthplace from Canada to the Dominican Republic and back again. There are a handful of comments at Talk:Chris Duarte (basketball), but I figured the article could get some more eyes here. Zagalejo (talk) 04:18, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

For what it’s worth, the Pacers’ media guide does list his birthplace as Puerto Rico. Zagalejo (talk) 05:43, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

I think you mean Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic, not Puerto Rico.—Bagumba (talk) 06:13, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Oops, yes! Zagalejo (talk) 12:24, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

In 2018, the University of Oregon wrote: Born in Montreal and raised in the Dominican Republic.[4] However, their most recent bio says: Born in Puerto Plata, Dominican Republic[5] Perhaps, we'll have to wait for a quote from him or a recorded interview.—Bagumba (talk) 06:09, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Why wouldn't we just go with Puerto Plata if UO has changed it and his media guide bio concurs? Pretty sure the discrepency started because his Oregon bio said Montreal as birthplace. Rikster2 (talk) 15:48, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

He eludes to being in the category of Dominicans born on the island of DR rather than Dominicans born in the U.S. in this interview. It appears his dad was Canadian, so perhaps somewhere along the lines someone has mistaken him for being born in Canada and that narrative have been picked up by news outlets, including NBA Canada. DaHuzyBru (talk) 16:09, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Sounds to me like Puerto Plata was his birthplace but he was raised in Montreal. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 17:05, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

I’m not convinced he was raised in Montreal. None of the lengthier articles about him say anything like that. It’s pretty clear he identifies as a Dominican. Zagalejo (talk) 01:31, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

If LeBron James will play his 16th Christmas Day game, which images/set of images would be okay, what's on the left or what's on the right?

) 01:26, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

The overall, home, road and division records, plus win percentage and games behind the #1 seed for the 4th-seeded Cleveland Cavaliers in the 1995–96 NBA Standings are incorrect, and can't be edited. There's no option to edit the standings from the 1995–96 season.

These are the Cleveland Cavaliers actual records from the 1995–96 season:

• OVERALL: 47–35
• WIN PERCENTAGE: .573
• GAMES BEHIND: 25
• HOME: 26–15
• AWAY: 21–20
• DIVISION: 13–15

I posted the correct records under the standings on the 1995–96 Cleveland Cavaliers season page, and the 1995–96 NBA season page with a reference link to the 1995–96 NBA Season Standings on Basketball-Reference.

-JEB1995

) 08:24, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

@

talk

) 11:50, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

To @

: Thank you, but the Cavaliers division record is still incorrect. They had a 13–15 record against teams in the Central Division during the 1995–96 season.

-JEB1995

) 23:19, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

) 20:35, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello, I was informed to create a post here in hopes that a volunteer would assist me by creating a Wiki page for professional basketball player Jermaine Barnes. Here is a snippet of what I've come up with for his Early Life. I have pictures, websites, and direct sources I'm just unable to create the page. Please help :)

Jermaine Barnes (born October 7, 1982) is an American former professional basketball player who also served as General Manager and Head Coach for the Rheinland Lions (Germany). Barnes played college basketball with the Abraham Baldwin Stallions for two years, before transferring to Point University for his senior season. He then started his professional career in Japan signing with the Saitama Broncos of the BJ League, a minor league basketball organization owned and run by the JBL. Barnes played for the USA National Team in 2012 (FIBA Jones Cup). He would sign a non-guaranteed contract with the Minnesota Timberwolves. He has also played professionally in Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Taiwan, Dominican Republic, Costa Rico, Uruguay, Spain, Lebanon, and Germany. At 6'4, Barnes can play any position around the perimeter and has a respectable post-game. Barnes' recorded accolades include multiple MVP awards, championships, first-team mentions, and a 63-point performance while hooping professionally in Japan in 2008 (All-Japan Tournament).

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/28927/jermaine-barnes

https://basketball.usbasket.com/team/NBA/Minnesota-Timberwolves/249?Page=4

https://www.slamonline.com/archives/the-journey-of-jermaine-barnes/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cbailey10 (talk • contribs) 16:43, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

@

WP:GNG notability standards.—Bagumba (talk

) 17:55, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Predraft measurements TfD

You are invited to comment on the listing of predraft measurements in bios at the TfD at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2021_December_18#Template:NBA_predraft.—Bagumba (talk) 13:35, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

I reverted a good faith edit by

) 08:04, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Covid list

We really gotta denote players put into health and safety (Covid) protocols in the roster templates - it has become an extremely common thing these days. Also should note guys on 10-day hardship deals due to teams being so short handed, and explaining the extra bodies.

I know this hasn't been done before, and some people are stuck on tradition, but we're in the "new normal", and have to adapt. Vjmlhds (talk) 01:58, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

People go in and out of protocols. Transient updates provides no long-term value to Wikipedia, as compared to prose based on sources that describe any overall impact to a team.—Bagumba (talk) 05:11, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

I would not be opposed to tweaking the "injured" definition in the key to include health and safety protocols and using that symbol consistently, but having a separate code for this feels like overkill. As for the 10-day COVID contracts, we have been adding and dropping 10-day contract players since these templates were created with no additional code needed - I don't see any reason that this needs to start. Player is available for the team and they are on the roster, they cease to be and they are not. It is that simple. There is a limit to how many codes we should use, otherwise it takes away from the key info on the template and becomes distracting. This looks ridiculous to me. A larger issue though is that you can't just decide to make changes in the template format for the team you follow when there are 29 other NBA team templates - any changes of that scale need consensus. Rikster2 (talk) 13:33, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Which is why I came here to start with. Sometimes tweaks have to be made because the world doesn't care about the way things have always been done on Wikipedia - like I said, we gotta adapt. Vjmlhds (talk) 15:08, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

You didn't come here to start with. I reverted your edits and suggested you have a consensus discussion here. Rikster2 (talk) 15:13, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Which is what I did...you can't take every word so literally - it was a figure of speech. Vjmlhds (talk) 15:46, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind indicating which players were 10-day signings, like we do for two-way players. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 02:48, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Teams are using hardship to sign guys to 10-day deals because of Covid wiping out their regular rosters. Standard NBA rosters have 15 full time + 2 two-way guys for 17 players total. You see rosters with 20-21 guys, a note should be there to explain the extra bodies. The Covid era is making things go sideways, and we just need to adjust to it...can't be beholden to the old standards when circumstances are turning them upside down - gotta adapt. Vjmlhds (talk) 04:15, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

The editor keeps re-adding non notable games to DeMarcus Cousins' page. For example –

) 20:10, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

With respect, please read this and do not again only react with anger: A random account inactive for 5 years? I’m sorry if you had a lot of disagreements with whoever that is. I don’t care about the Suns, I promise you that I am not that user, and the game was a “blowout” even if another guy used that term in 2016. You did not address what I said. It is unusual and not up to Wikipedia’s standards to go from in-depth descriptions of a sports player’s seasons to no mention of anything in another season. I promise you, from one Wikipedia contributor to another, I am not doing this to try to make you upset. These games were notable (clear impact on game), besides the clearly notable 22 point game, based on the references listed. I am not gonna leave any harassment warning on your page (Questionable use of warnings, baseless accusations of “sockpuppetry”) nor any edit warring warning on your page. I respect that you have made a lot of wikipedia edits, but the least you could do is respond to my civil and considerate responses to you, before you try to just leave warnings as opposed to discussing. La rodman (talk) 21:36, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

First of all, I am not angry or upset so I do not see where you got that from. Secondly, the use of "blowout win" and similar designations is not encyclopedic. Thirdly, I did not have any problems with AGreatPhoenixSunsFan (it is the opposite - the editor had problems with itself and Wikipedia in general). Fourthly, you should not leave any warnings on my talk page, because

talk

) 21:59, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I appreciate that you responded, and am fully willing to discuss it. I suppose I just saw your deletion of a series of edits that comprised about 80% or so of his Bucks tenure information as you needlessly thinning out the page as a reaction to me adding one sentence, and then me reverting your edit only to be immediately told to discuss it, as opposed to you starting a discussion, as out of nowhere. I can agree that “blowout” as an adjective is not needed. So I should remove that word? I think the 22 point/8 rebound game is notable for the previously stated clear reasons. Perhaps the 18 point/8 rebound game and 15 point/10 rebound/3 steal games need more references to show their importance? I could add links related to Brook Lopez’s long term injury making Cousins addition necessary, or articles about Cousins being important in those games due to other Bucks being in Covid protocol, and so on. I am okay if you do not want the final game stat line to be present, but basically any article referencing his surprise release cited it as adding to the surprise, if nothing else for how the reports garnered much attention right after the game. My main angle is I just don’t see the page as benefiting from going from well done descriptions of seasons and tenures, to his most recent season/tenure being that he was signed and released with no information, as if he did not appear in a game. La rodman (talk) 23:55, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Please read

talk

) 15:48, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

OK, I think I can understand your opposition to not wanting to add too many games, re: the has-beens part. Perhaps I instead more switch it from how it was before being deleted to being more similar to the Clippers section (his averages and “notable” games)? I do think it warrants at least slightly more detail than the Clippers tenure as opposed to less, as he played more games, started games, had larger roles in the games (not only subjective analysis, but minutes, field goal attempts, advanced stat usage rate, etc), and got more attention due to being on a defending champ team. But again, I don’t really feel I need to re-add the final game even if it’s mentioned as a reason for the surprise of his release in articles that discuss him being cut. Also, with the 22 point game, do you think I should add a post game link of Budenholzer or a teammate mentioning his impact *and* add the ESPN/AP/related type summary, or only the latter? La rodman (talk) 00:30, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Does anyone else think that

) 17:01, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Anyone? If nobody responds then I will remove most of them and an edit war will be started by some other editor. –

talk

) 16:53, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

It’s a little much in my opinion and looks cheesy, but there isn’t a consensus on what to include in n awards list in the body of an article so far as I know. Rikster2 (talk) 18:13, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

@

talk

) 18:17, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree runner up or finalist aren’t awards. I also don’t think pre- or mid-season awards shouldn’t be listed but know that’s subjective. I can see the case for listing POTW there (they don’t qualify for the infobox), but seems like a much more concise format should be used Rikster2 (talk) 18:20, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Pre- and mid-season should be in prose, at most. Not the type of awards that will be in anyone's obituary.—Bagumba (talk) 11:40, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

I have recently created an article on Paris Bass, who has signed with the Suns for a 10-day contract. His prior professional history is a bit spotty, RealGM doesn't offer much but I did the best I could with researching teams. He may have played for other teams in the Dominican Republic and Colombia. Also I'm not sure if he actually played for the Traiskirchen Lions in Austria, and some of the years may need to be tweaked. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 01:37, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

An easy way to find teams is to go to the website Proballers. I use it a lot for Wikipedia. Mandomanny313 (talk) 00:24, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Does anyone have any idea where NBA Finals logos from 2004 to 2017 are coming from (2003 included but it has a completely different logo)? SportsLogos.net uploaded variations for those years, but none of those variations can be seen in any broadcasts for those games?

) 15:54, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

) 07:54, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

@Mandomanny313: I agree with your edit to take it out of the lead. Is it too trivial for the body?—Bagumba (talk) 00:46, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I think it's still notable if it's Ray Romano's son he played with. Just not big enough for lead. Mandomanny313 (talk) 00:48, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I could see if the son became a pro player, or some articles about Holiday mentioned him. Instead, the source is about their school with a trivial mention of Holiday. And the son doesnt even have a Wikipedia page.—Bagumba (talk) 01:12, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

The source presented didn’t confirm that the two guys were teammates at the same time. Holiday was already at UCLA when that article was published. That said, if we could properly verify the statement, I wouldn’t mind seeing it in the body. It’s interesting enough and adds some color. Zagalejo (talk) 16:48, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

It might be reasonable to mention in the body of the article, provided it is properly verified, but not in the lead. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 13:13, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

You're invited to join the discussion at Talk:Kobe Bryant#Infobox picture 2 regarding his lead's image.—Bagumba (talk) 03:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

There are several proposals located at

) 17:03, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

To be more specific, your input, one way or the other, on several pending proposals to alter NSPORTS would be welcomed. These proposals are as follows:

• Subproposal 1: Requires "all athlete biographies must demonstrate GNG when notability is challenged at AfD" and that "SIGCOV in multiple secondary, independent reliable sources would have to be produced during the course of an AfD". Also potential limitations/exceptions.
• Subproposal 3: "Remove all simple or mere 'participation' criteria in NSPORT, outside of ones related to Olympics and equivalent events."
• Subproposal 4: "Modify all provisions of NSPORTS that provide that participation in 'one' game/match such that the minimum participation level is increased to 'three' games/matches. This raises the threshold for the presumption of notability to kick in."
• Subproposal 5: "Implement a requirement that all sports biographies and sports season/team articles must, from inception, include at least one example of actual WP:SIGCOV from a reliable, independent source. Mere database entries would be insufficient for creation of a new biography article."
• Subproposal 6: "Conditional on Subproposal 6 passing, should a prod-variant be created, applicable to the articles covered by Subproposal 5, that would require the addition of one reference containing significant coverage to challenge the notice."
• Subproposal 8: "Rewrite the introduction to clearly state that GNG is the applicable guideline, and articles may not be created or kept unless they meet GNG." Further: "Replace all instances of 'presumed to be notable' with 'significant coverage is likely to exist.'
• Subproposal 9: Strike, as allegedly confusing and/or at odds with other parts of NSPORTS, the following sentence from the lead: "The article should provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria set forth below."
• Subproposal 10: "Require each project that has inclusion criteria based on participation in a league ... within the next 30 days to justify the inclusion of each league. Such justification must include actual 'random' (truly random) sampling showing that 90%-plus of the players in each league receive sufficient SIGCOV to pass GNG. At the end of 30 days, any league as to which the data has not been provided must be stricken from NSPORTS." Cbl62 (talk) 09:27, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

I put Rising Star MVP for Recent winners in Cade Cunningham , Miles Bridges , Kyle Kuzma and Andrew Wiggins as recent winners in Jamal Murray 2017 and Bogdan Bogdanović 2018 have it . So do we remove it from them as well . — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnLUcas05 (talk • contribs) 17:35, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't seem like a prominent award, aside from some routine coverage during All-Star weekend. There's hasn't been consensus to include it, per

WP:NBAHIGHLIGHTS. As a point of reference, it's not prominent for Kyrie Irving at either his NBA.com or basketball-reference.com profiles—Bagumba (talk

) 01:33, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

RfC regarding article titles of relocated professional sports teams in North America

• Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (sports teams)#RfC regarding article titles of relocated professional sports teams in North America

An RfC relating to relocated teams' article titles using "History of" has been opened and may be of interest to this Wiki Project. The RfC will add language to the

) 13:53, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

I think it might be time to put some standards in place for player career subsections. We have too many article instances where a player literally has one or two sentences for a team stint yet a whole subsection for it (see example). It is one thing if you have a fleshed-out article with team stint subsections (like James Harden), but it looks silly to have 6-8 subsections with a line or two of prose - especially with some of the player movement we have seen in seasons like this one. Each 10-day deal or return to a G League team doesn't need a subsection. I'd like to propose a 4-sentence minimum for a team subsection. An alternative is what I did with Haywood Highsmith, which is to create season subsections which combined several team stints. What are thoughts? Rikster2 (talk) 14:04, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

There's already the general

WP:NBASTYLE.—Bagumba (talk

) 15:12, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree that this is getting out of hand. I'm even seeing subsections specifically for G League stints without regard for stints with overseas clubs, which may more meaningful and long lasting. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 15:15, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

There is a disagreement at

) 18:12, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

I just want the new feature to be tested (LOL).

[[File:Jimmy Butler (cropped).jpg]] seems to be a better infobox image because it shows all of his face, he's in motion, and is in a Heat uniform. Howard the Duck (talk) 21:15, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

I couldn't agree less. That image shows less of his face (only a three-quarter angle), is about as grainy as any I've ever seen in a high-traffic article and is two years old. The All-Star image also shows him in motion but I'm not sure how that's relevant. --Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 17:52, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Per

WP:NBAIMAGE, we generally prefer a recent image. But it's not a hard policy, and cases like this where there is disagreement is where we discuss (thanks for initiating).—Bagumba (talk

) 04:49, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

yeah the one where he is in a Heat uniform is too grainy, I'm a Miami fan so I'd love it if it were a Heat jersey, but his whole face is weird and grainy in that pic. Wearing accessories or not, he looks better and more clear in the all star picture. MrSplashman77 (talk) 18:42, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

The non-hoodie pic is not grainy at its normal display, only if you click and view in higher resolution. I prefer that pic, where his head and face is not covered, though it is a few years older.—Bagumba (talk) 01:33, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Hey folks. I've been on this article for a bit, dealing with a lot of IPs and new editors who are adding the nickname "Batman." I thought it was one vandal at first, but then found that the player is actively trying to nickname himself and there's a fan push to get it into the article. Frankly I have no idea how to deal with a situation where someone is trying to give himself a nickname. If some more basketball-focused editors could take a look, my watchlist would appreciate it. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:58, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

This was flat out vandalism. Assuming others start using it (debateable at this point), we actually aren't that consiststent on when nicknames are put in the lead. Per

MOS:BADNICK:

Nicknames and other aliases included must be frequently used by reliable sources in reference to the subject...Highlighting uncommon or disputed appellations in the lead section gives them undue weight...

How should we assess "frequently"?—Bagumba (talk

) 05:34, 25 March 2022 (UTC)