Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Thailand/Archives/2023

Hi all, since Siripong Siripool, Kitipon Kitikul and Teeranun Chiangta articles got AFD, i would like to providing sources to support the notability. Unfortunately, i couldn't find any old articles that talks about them per SIGCOV. All of them were competing in the Olympics, and Siripool also won silver medal in the Asian Games. Please help.. Thank you Stvbastian (talk) 09:55, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

For topics whose names in Thai constitute English loanwords, I generally think that it's unnecessary to provide the RTGS romanization or IPA guide for the Thai pronunciation, as they will most often just be garbled versions of the English term already presented to the reader. While it can be interesting and maybe useful to know how a loanword is rendered according to Thai phonology, I don't think it's such pertinent information that warrants inclusion as part of the standard article opening, and they often won't match how the terms are actually pronounced in real life (which tends to more closely approximate the English) anyway.

See for example Hale's Blue Boy and GMMTV, which currently begin as, "Hale's Blue Boy (Thai: เฮลซ์บลูบอย, pronounced [hēːw blūː bɔ̄ːj, hēːɫ-])..." and "GMMTV (Thai: จีเอ็มเอ็มทีวี RTGS: Chi Em Em Thiwi)..."

Potapt was the one who added the IPA to the Hale's Blue Boy article, so we seem to be differ in opinion. I'm raising the topic here for more visibility, in case others wish to join. --Paul_012 (talk) 12:39, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Although I personally find the romanization for loanwords rather pointless since it isn't used anywhere, I don't see any issue with it being there. As for the IPA pronunciation, yes, recent loanwords tend to be pronounced more closely to their source languages, but older loanwords often maintain the pronunciation already adapted to Thai phonology, even in standard speech (for example, I rarely, if ever, hear the pronunciation of the name Happy Land realized with the final [d].) Hence, I believe it would be useful to include it. Moreover, if the localized pronunciation can stay in articles like Newell's Old Boys, Sport Club Corinthians and Ubisoft, then there should be no reason to exclude the actual pronunciation in Thai. --Potapt (talk) 23:57, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Not sure those are good examples, especially the Ubisoft one, as they're all from countries whose languages use the Roman script. But then there are plenty of other examples from Japan, with their wasei-eigo names, so I get the point.

Happy Land might be an example where the Thai pronunciation is clear and established, but that isn't always the case. Take Hale's Blue Boy. The /s/ is pronounced very clearly in this TV advertisement.[1] But no doubt many people also pronounce it the way you transcribed. As there isn't a "standard" pronunciation that the IPA can represent, I think they'd be better left out in cases like this.

With hybrid pronunciations that don't follow standard Thai phonology, there's also the issue of deviating from the standard IPA symbol set for Thai, making them technically inappropriate for the IPA-th template. It might also be veering into original research territory, as unlike the IPA mapping for standard Thai, which is well established, more interpretation of the input (and surveys of the pronunciation itself) is required for these variable pronunciations. Say, what is the sound of a closing ล? Is it /ɫ/, /w/, or /n/? How can we claim to know how Thai people actually pronounce it? It's opening up a whole can of worms, IMO. --Paul_012 (talk) 15:33, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion, those are perfect examples where non-native English speakers use or incorporate English words into their brand names but pronounce them according to their local phonology. Even though all of them are written with the Roman script, they are distinct languages with their own vocabulary and phonology. If they were to use native words, it would be something like "Exalumnos de Newell," "Clube Esportivos Coríntios," or "Ubilogiciel." It's not as if their speakers were inherently born with the ability to speak English but consciously decided not to.

And why do we need to "claim" to know how each loanword is pronounced though? From what I understand, I don't think this has anything to do with the original research, or else adding IPA pronunciation to other "phonetic languages" could face similar challenges as well. I mean, when I added those pronunciations, it wasn't about imposing or dictating some specific ways of pronouncing those words. Rather, I was simply reflecting how Thai speakers actually pronounce them. (And I think you somewhat confirmed that when you said, "But no doubt many people also pronounce it the way you transcribed.") If you come across other possible pronunciations, then sure, add them. For example, if you hear people adding [s] to "Hale's", we can transcribe the name as "[hēːw(s) blūː bɔ̄ːj, hēːɫ(s)-]". But seriously, does anyone really pronounce ล in this name as [n]? I highly doubt it. We don't need to include every single possibility based on the spellings, do we? If one has never heard it, then there's no point in adding it. Parallelly, the transcriptions currently shown in the articles Newell's Old Boys and Sport Club Corinthians don't cover all the different ways those names can be pronounced based on their spellings.

Now, how can we determine when to pronounce a closing ล as /ɫ/, /w/, or /n/? (By the way, I usually use square brackets, not slashes). I have no clue. Maybe that's a question that one should ask Thai speakers—why did they create such inconsistencies in the first place? Potapt (talk) 19:22, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi,

I am looking for members to join WikiProject Council/Proposals/Asian Australians.

I figured that some members of WikiProject Thailand might want to help contribute to the proposed WikiProject.

Let me know if you are interested!

Thanks, AverageFraud (talk) 09:27, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@AverageFraud: I have put my support on your project page. --Taweetham (talk) 04:17, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to

Hello WikiProject Thailand:

WikiProject Women in Green is holding a month-long Good Article Edit-a-thon event in October 2023!

Running from October 1 to 31, 2023, WikiProject Women in Green (WiG) is hosting a Good Article (GA) edit-a-thon event with the theme Around the World in 31 Days! All experience levels welcome. Never worked on a GA project before? We'll teach you how to get started. Or maybe you're an old hand at GAs – we'd love to have you involved! Participants are invited to work on nominating and/or reviewing GA submissions related to women and women's works (e.g., books, films) during the event period. We hope to collectively cover article subjects from at least 31 countries (or broader international articles) by month's end. GA resources and one-on-one support will be provided by experienced GA editors, and participants will have the opportunity to earn a special WiG barnstar for their efforts.

We hope to see you there!

Grnrchst (talk) 13:49, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Phaitoon Phonbun.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:46, 4 November 2023 (UTC)