Wikipedia talk:WikiProject World's Oldest People/Archive 4

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Many of the "List of oldest people in some country" articles say in the lede that the list contains people who have been verified by the GRG.

I'm seeing two major problems here:

• These articles are currently showcasing the GRG and are excluding the possibility of other reliable sources. If the GRG wants to write articles culled from their own tables, they need to be written somewhere else.
• If the people are supposed to be verified by the GRG, pending claims must be excluded because those claims are not verified.

These articles need an overhaul to bring them up to Wikipedia standards. This means that every entry in every table must be referenced, something that OscarLake has already done for several articles (and which I very much appreciate). Note that the GRG Verified table may be suitable as a reliable source but the Pending table (table EE?) is not a reliable source (see this discussion). Also, sources other than the GRG verified table can and should be used as reliable sources even if they claim that someone is 130 or whatever.

There are also problems in these articles with accessibility and the use of colour because of the Verified, Pending, and Unverified entries. Since the Pending entries don't need to be noted - they're unverified - it isn't necessary to note by colour that the Verified entries are verified. That could be done with a note or something like that.

While I could start going through and fixing these articles, I think it's better if members of this project were the ones to figure out how to approach the problems. I invite all members of this project to comment and specifically pinging Ollie231213 TFBCT1, DerbyCountyinNZ, Waenceslaus, Randykitty, and CommanderLinx (editors previously involved in discussions and that have been making the majority of the changes to these articles) to share their thoughts. Thanks! Ca2james (talk) 01:08, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Firstly I should make it clear that I'm not now, nor ever have been, a member of this project as I see it as a spin off of the GRG fan club which has resulted in the sort of issues highlighted here. Addressing the two problems above:

1. " These articles are currently showcasing the GRG and are excluding the possibility of other reliable sources." I know of no other "reliable" sources that publish any relevant material for such lists. That is using reliable in the dictionary sense not the Wikipedia sense. Using reliable in the Wikipedia sense would make such lists encyclopedically meaningless. Including the more extreme claims of 130+ detracts from those cases which have been properly investigated to modern standards. This would be far more of an issue that having to rely, at the moment, solely on the GRG tables.
2. "If the people are supposed to be verified by the GRG, pending claims must be excluded because those claims are not verified." Totally agree and I have mentioned this before, more than once, as well as removing the pending cases or modifying the lede where appropriate, from at least some of the articles I follow.
3. The problem of the use of colour (mostly) disappears if pending and unverified cases are removed, or at least split such as in
   List of living supercentenarians
   . In most cases I would think total removal is appropriate.

DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 03:29, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

I'd say that the Guinness Book of World Records would be another source. And again, while they use the GRG, it isn't always the same. I had this issue at Talk:Augusta_Holtz#Birth_Certificate. A newspaper article said that she lacked a birth certificate which would is why Guinness couldn't authenticate it and didn't list her. I'd say that's a reliable source for that fact. The GRG group members responded that there was a certificate because they know it exists (I think they personally saw it which is NOT the one we do things here) so they've removed my source. I don't know if she's even listed in Guinness at all. I'm fairly certain that there are some differences in the Guinness lists of oldest people versus the GRG ones because they use different standards for inclusion but trying to point that out gets you shouted down. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:41, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for inviting me for the discussion.

@Ricky, the newspaper article is never a reliable source in such cases. Especially when it was dated in longer past. If you look at the Gerontology Research Group's table E, you will notice, that the authenticity of age of Mrs. Augusta Holtz was only verified by the Gerontology Research Group on Sept. 17, 2012. Only since that moment, Mrs. Augusta Holtz is recognized as one of the oldest people in history and also human longevity recordholder before Jeanne Calment of France and the first person ever to have reached the 115 years of age.

Finally, it is not like the GWR "uses" the GRG or vice versa. The Guiness World Records and Gerontology Research Group cooperate with each other in the field of extreme longevity tracking. Waenceslaus (talk) 11:28, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

@DerbyCountyinNZ, "* These articles are currently showcasing the GRG and are excluding the possibility of other reliable sources"

The Gerontology Research Group is the world's leading authority in the tracking of world's oldest living people, the elite group of supercentenarians.

"* If the people are supposed to be verified by the GRG, pending claims must be excluded because those claims are not verified."

The GRG table EE is the source of equal credibility as the GRG Table E. In fact, the supercentenarians listed at the GRG talbe EE are "pending-validated". That means, that their age does not breeds any further doubts, and the case is in need of locating accessory documentation or every essential documentation for the case has been already provided and the case is waiting for the final decision of positive verification. For supercentenarian to become pending, the substantial amount of proof is required.

Yes, the GRG's pending supercentenarians can be listed in the articles mentioned.

One more comment: So far, there hasn't been verified anyone who would have achieved age of 123 or higher. The 130+ claims, until they are verified by the GRG, are just claims of extreme longevity. Therefore they cannot be mentioned on the lists, which base on the results of the professional research of the Gerontology Research Group.Waenceslaus (talk) 11:38, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

• Glad to see that some action is being undertaken to put the articles under the purview of this project on more solid footing. I would suggest that once the list articles have been cleaned, we should have a look at many of the individual bios. For most of these people, the only interesting thing to mention is their longevity. The rest usually boils down to the standard coverage that people turning 100 or more get in their local newspapers (granny still reads without glasses, John likes cookies and takes a glass of wine with his dinner, etc). We can do without that unencyclopedic content (remember, not everything that can be verified also needs to be included) and most of those articles can be redirected to the respective list articles without loss of any worthwhile info. As for the GRG, have a look at their (rather amateurish) website. This is not a group of professional researchers but consists of enthusiastic laymen. Very few of their international correspondents have an academic affiliation, and those that do, often don't work in any area connected to aging (some having an MBA and such). That doesn't mean their work is not meticulous (I have no opinion on that), but they're not the last word on anything either. --Randykitty (talk) 12:57, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Definitely agree. I've noticed in some that I've PRODed or taken to AFD that the only salvageable information was just a name, age and country. Another problem is that a lot of these longevity articles (especially the "List of <country> supercentenarians" and "Oldest people by year of birth" articles) seem to rely on original research. CommanderLinx (talk) 17:35, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. This has been a longstanding issue, probably even more widespread than I have found. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 03:11, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the bios need attention, too. If we can get these "list of" articles on their way we can look at the bios. Ca2james (talk) 17:32, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I would like to respond to several points made in this discussion individually:

• "These articles are currently showcasing the GRG and are excluding the possibility of other reliable sources." ---> As it stands, there aren't any other reliable sources. That's not to say that there never can be, but any other competing organisation has to establish itself as a credible body before it can be considered a reliable source.
• "If the people are supposed to be verified by the GRG, pending claims must be excluded because those claims are not verified." ---> What about pending sports records that have yet to be ratified? All world track and field or swimming records, when set, are "pending" an outcome of drug testing, equipment calibration, etc....yet are reported right away. Should they not be included? Because they are currently included in Wikipedia articles with a footnote or something similar. The point I'm making is that pending supercentenarians are NOT on equal terms with those who are neither verified nor pending. If you throw them in with unverified claims and include the unverified claims in these lists, you'll end up with a total mess, because you'll have to include all sorts of ridiculous claims. As far as I'm concerned, if you do not wish to distinguish pending from other unverified cases, then only include verified cases.
• "sources other than the GRG verified table can and should be used as reliable sources even if they claim that someone is 130 or whatever." ---> Doing that will turn the whole project in to a complete shambles. I suppose you think we should add "969" year old Methuselah in as well.
• " I see it as a spin off of the GRG fan club..." ---> Many people involved this project have an interest in longevity and supercentenarians, NOT the GRG. The GRG is a non-profit organisation and many who work for it do so on a voluntary basis. It's not in our interest to promote the GRG. All we want to do is make sure that Wikipedia's coverage is as accurate and thorough as possible, and as the GRG is currently the leading authority on supercentenarian verification, we use it as the main point of reference.
• "A newspaper article said that she lacked a birth certificate which would is why Guinness couldn't authenticate it and didn't list her. I'd say that's a reliable source for that fact." ---> The newspaper article was wrong, and the birth certificate has since been located. Now ok, there was no publicly available source that could reference this, but the point is that you insisted that "She lacked a birth certificate" should still be included, when this point was disputed. There was no need to include this, so since the factual accuracy was in question, I don't believe it should have been mentioned at all.
• "For most of these people, the only interesting thing to mention is their longevity" ---> I note that on this page there is a discussion about what is appropriate encyclopedic content for supercentenarian biographies, and the conclusion was that "content should be limited to material that is directly related to extreme longevity". What kind of logic is that? So should no biographical details be included in biographies of say, tennis players? After all, they're only notable for tennis, aren't they?
• "The rest usually boils down to the standard coverage that people turning 100 or more get in their local newspapers" ---> Human interest reports in news can have a place in Wikipedia. It's not encyclopedic, you say? Well guess what, THE WHOLE OF WIKIPEDIA is not encyclopedic. An encyclopedia is written by experts. What's Wikipedia? It's a giant website, which can be edited by any old idiot sitting their parents' basement. Instead of just gutting these articles and chopping all sorts out, why don't we make constructive - rather than destructive - changes, to try and help spread knowledge?
• "As for the GRG, have a look at their (rather amateurish) website" ---> I agree the website doesn't look great, but that's not really relevant.
• "This is not a group of professional researchers but consists of enthusiastic laymen. Very few of their international correspondents have an academic affiliation, and those that do, often don't work in any area connected to aging..." ---> What qualifications do YOU have? Oh that's right, self-appointed arbiters of a website that "anyone can edit". Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
• "They're not the last word on anything either." ---> They are the leading authority on supercentenarian verification. Sorry, but they ARE the last word, with the exception of the world's oldest category (for which GWR are the last). Why would you put any other source above them, unless you have a very good reason to do so? Just saying "their website is amateurish" doesn't mean anything.

It seems to me that the mindset of a lot of editors is one of "track down and delete without discussion". This attitude needs to change because it's not constructive. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 21:31, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Can we please stick to sourcing and other article issues and leave off denigrating the GRG and people who are interested in longevity and related topics, please? Thanks.

When I rewrote the GRG article I looked for independent sources that said that the GRG was the leading supercentenarian site... and all I could find were sources where one or another member of the GRG says that they're a leading authority. Declaring oneself a leading authority doesn't make necessarily one a

reliable source

for everything. That said, we know that the GRG verifies supercentenarian claims and so the ones that are verified (table E, is it?), are definitely reliable sources.

Everything else from the GRG tables isn't a reliable source because there's nothing to back them up. Even the pending table (Table EE) isn't enough because if information isn't in a validated state then it's not validated from a Wikipedia perspective.

Also, someone - be it a GRG member or someone else - knowing something isn't a reliable source. Even if that person's knowledge contradicts a newspaper account because it's newer than what was written in the paper, that knowledge can't be used in an article because it isn't a reliable source. And because we're dealing with

recently deceased

, everything we include in an article about them has to be reliably-sourced.

The Guiness Book is a reliable source for sure. Are there other longevity organizations out there? Newspaper accounts in reliable papers are also reliable sources, at least according to

WP:RS

). Ideally, I'd like to see everything that's sourced to the GRG Table E also sourced to another reliable source whenever possible. I'm fairly certain that Methusalah's age was not listed in a reliable source (at least according to Wikipedia) so we don't need to worry about including that name.

Ollie231213, I don't want to decimate articles, either, but all these articles must be reliably-sourced. Anything in these articles that can't be reliably-sourced after a reasonable period of time - say, a couple of months - must be removed. Ca2james (talk) 02:19, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't take issue with you asking that things are reliable sourced. What I am NOT happy about, however, are things like this. Someone created an article about the oldest living person in Australia - yes, it was only a stub, but most articles start out like that.

List of Australian supercentenarians), on the grounds that the it had "nothing of value that isn't already present there". He did NOT consult anyone else and he did NOT gain consensus. In my view it was a rash decision made without gaining consensus and one which is detrimental to the purpose of Wikipedia. What is the point of just immediately destroying new articles, without giving them chance to develop? -- Ollie231213 (talk

) 22:20, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

See

WP:BEBOLD. Really, the only information in that article was a name, age and country. CommanderLinx (talk

) 17:06, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

It had only just been created!

Gladys Hooper's article as an example - compare the current version of the article to the original version. Articles can evolve and improve over time, so GIVE THEM A CHANCE. -- Ollie231213 (talk

) 19:55, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

You seriously want to say that apart from age and country, there is anything even remotely encyclopedic in the Hooper article? That someone witnessed a certain event or went to school with a notable person is not usually included in any biographical article, unless it verifiably influenced the life of the person that the bio is about. I'm afraid that Hooper really is nto a good example of what a bio should look like.... --Randykitty (talk) 20:07, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh, so just delete the whole bloody thing then! The article is still quite new, and improvements can still be made. Either way, it's far better than the original version which was just a sentence or two, which is why I'm arguing against hasty deletion. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 07:36, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

It was either redirect the article myself or take it through the entire AFD process where the likely end result after a week or so would have been "merge/redirect to the Australian article". Correct my if I'm wrong, but I don't believe

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a good reason for me not redirecting the Ethel Farrell article. CommanderLinx (talk

) 08:05, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

notability is not temporary. Ca2james (talk

) 17:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

What is meant by "one event"? I thought it was previously agreed that national record holders are notable enough for their own article. In any case, no one previously explained this so it comes across as an anti-longevity, "search and destroy" campaign. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 22:43, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

WP:BLP1E for what is meant by "one event". Basically it means that the person is notable only in one context, is otherwise low-profile, and nothing else has been written about them. Can you please link to the discussion where it was decided that record holders were notable enough for their own article? Please note that I'm pro-Wikipedia, not anti-longevity, and want to bring these articles into compliance with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. I'm sorry you feel that we're conducting a search-and-destroy campaign but I hope you see that this is being done for the betterment of the encyclopaedia. Unfortunately, this project has operated using its own rules (which aren't all compatible with Wikipedia's) for a long time, so many articles are going to be affected by this review. Ca2james (talk

) 18:27, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Ca2james,I can't remember where this discussion took place, otherwise I would have linked it. Maybe it was just a comment somewhere or something, I don't know. But in any case, being a national record-holder at least seems like reasonable criteria. My "search and destroy" comment was not necessarily aimed at you, it was more aimed at people who just immediately delete new articles. I accept that this project has been bending the rules in favour of truth over verifiability, but please remember that those involved only have the aim of spreading knowledge about the subject. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 07:38, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Ollie231213 thanks for the clarification. I know that members of this project want to spread their knowledge I appreciate their work and dedication. I agree that new articles and edits are sometimes deleted very quickly and that this is frustrating and discouraging for editors. I do see your point about national record-holders being somewhat notable, but one issue I have is that record-holders change over time, which implies that previous record-holders don't stay notable. The other main issue I have is that these record-holders are (temporarily) notable for only one thing. Ca2james (talk) 16:01, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Randykitty, don't let your emotions win over solid facts. There is no need to offend the scientists associated with the Gerontology Research Group. On the contrary, plenty of Gerontology Research Group's International Correspondents have degrees. They tend to be Professors of their respective universities, demographs. On the other hand, what qualifications do you have? Who has appointed you to decide over who is professional and who is not. Yes, you are self-appointed, not an expert so please do not call the GRG Correspondents "laymen". This is a mistake. The GRG International Correspondents have been chosen, once they have proven their professionalism and credibility in extreme longevity tracking and signed the confidentiality agreement with the Gerontology Research Group. The list of their publications in scientific journals is also available from the Gerontology Research Group's website. The website may be not the most modern one, but this, in my honest opinion is very weak argument. The website can be improved anytime. It's the people, that matter. The Gerontology Research Group has professional people.

Ca2james, I agree with Ollie231213 and wish to add, that there is never need to delete the material, credibility of which is assured by the Gerontology Research Group. You said before, that:

"Everything else from the GRG tables isn't a reliable source because there's nothing to back them up. Even the pending table (Table EE) isn't enough because if information isn't in a validated state then it's not validated from a Wikipedia perspective"

Well, I can see inconsistency here. Let me explain: The GRG table EE is also the GRG table, so it is the reliable source. The GRG table EE bases on the research conducted by the Gerontoogy Research Group's International Correspondents and accepted by the headship of the Gerontology Research Group. The GRG table EE greatly improves the authenticity of the research, because the supercentenarian claims listed there are being re-reviewed and often investigated further before the final dicision over positive verification is made. The verified supercentenarians can only be those, listed previously on the GRG table EE. In fact, the supercentenarian claims listed on the GRG table EE are "de facto" already verified cases (pending-validated). For a supercentenarian case to appear on GRG table EE, a substantial amount of documentation is needed. The source of validation are the GRG International Correspondents, whose names are being mentioned next to the case, which has been listed either on GRG table E and also on GRG table EE. The GRG International Correspondents are not anonymous people. Their e-mail adresses are available from the GRG website. If you have any further doubts on an particular case, contact with respective GRG International Correspondent or directly with the GRG headship, introduce yourself, and mention your matter, that you have doubts about the reliable sources. I am sure you can be given the professional answer about each particular case the Gerontology Research Group has researched. This would be wiser to get more information about the matter from the professional body and experts before deleting some valuable material from the Wikipedia website.

One more comment: The "encyclopedic purpose" of an encyclopedia, which is also the Wikipedia, is to educate the public in regards to topics of encyclopedic value. The larger goal of having a worldwide database of validated supercentenarians helps to educate the general public as to how long humans really live, how the extreme longevity is featured in different periods of time, in different regions of the world. By erasing the longevity-related articles, this goal can not be realised. How can the knowledge be improved, if the previous work in this matter is being erased?

Regards, Waenceslaus (talk) 09:52, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Waenceslaus, please indent each paragraph in your reply by putting one more ":" than in the post you're replying to - it makes it easier to follow the threaded discussion. I've indented your comments above.

Of course the information in the encyclopaedia is used to educate the public, but that information included must adhere to Wikipedia policies. At issue here is that there's a difference between what the GRG considers reliable and what Wikipedia considers reliable. The standards are different, and everything on Wikipedia must adhere to Wikipedia standards. I realize that the GRG correspondents have a lot of information about the various claims, but that knowledge is no substitute for reliably published information, especially when we're talking about

original research

and is not allowed.

The GRG tables aren't necessarily considered reliable, as

WP:SOURCE

, The best sources have a professional structure in place for checking or analyzing facts, legal issues, evidence, and arguments. The greater the degree of scrutiny given to these issues, the more reliable the source. Therefore, Table E, which contains entries that have been fully verified, is the best source on the GRG site because the information has been checked.

However, Table EE, which contains a list of people who have claimed to be at least 110 years old but whose verification process is not complete, is not a good source. There's no way for a reader to know where in the verification process these entries are or how much scrutiny they've received - some might be new claims where others might be practically verified - and since there's no way to know which is which, the table can't a reliable source. Of course entries in table EE can be used in addition to non-GRG secondary sources but they absolutely can't be used as the only source.

Does that help to clarify things? Ca2james (talk) 17:07, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

"Of course entries in table EE can be used in addition to non-GRG secondary sources"

I disagree. Since the GRG table EE is developed by the GRG, how can be used in addition to "non-GRG secondary sources"? The GRG table EE is the GRG source, which has been reviewed on the authenticity of the data. The Gerontology Research Group does not list cases at table EE without reviewing them. Each case you see at the GRG table EE is a case of supercentenarian for which the substantial amount of documentation has been gathered and the fact has been approved by the headship of the Gerontology Research Group. Therefore the GRG table EE is the professional source in this matter. Waenceslaus (talk) 21:05, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Just because you keep saying that GRG is the only source you find reliable doesn't mean that's policy. When people try to create a separate article about the individuals, they don't argue that newspapers aren't reliable sources then. It hypocritical to claim that newspapers or Guinness or anything else should not be a source for their age but is fair game when you want to make a separate article on the person. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

this project's main page: none of the GRG tables can be used in an article in order to make assertions about subjects' history of records broken, rank-order placement in longevity-related lists, or current status as alive or dead. Please re-read my comment above for a detailed analysis regarding these tables. Ca2james (talk

) 18:38, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to notify all project members about this work to bring these articles in line with Wikipedia policies and guidelines because it's a huge change. Pinging Randykitty and Ricky81682; can either of send a message via MediaWiki to all project members, or is there another way that this can be done? Thanks! Ca2james (talk) 16:13, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

On #2, the reference states the source. It seems unnecessary to have a reference tag, plus a footnote to give the same information. I don't see the reason for #3. Seeing as we have a reliable source to reference these cases, it's not really clear why we (in conjunction with #5) should be removing these cases. It would appear to be violation of

WP:OR to selectively remove and alter information given by a reliable source. SiameseTurtle (talk

) 16:34, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

The reference tags are needed because a) all entries in articles must be referenced, b) references must not be restricted to the GRG Tables, c) GRG Table EE isn't a reliable source, and d) these articles cannot rely on the GRG Tables alone. Please see the discussion above. More references are needed and information that is not referenced must be removed. It's not a violation of

WP:V requires it. I'm not saying that these entries need to be removed right this second; I'm saying that we flag these entries, give everyone a couple of months to come up with reliable sources, and only if reliable sources cannot be found would they be deleted. Does that make sense? Ca2james (talk

) 16:16, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Ca2james (talk · contribs) on all points. Long overdue. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 16:54, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

A new copy-paste detection bot is now in general use on English Wikipedia. Come check it out at the EranBot reporting page. This bot utilizes the Turnitin software (ithenticate), unlike User:CorenSearchBot that relies on a web search API from Yahoo. It checks individual edits rather than just new articles. Please take 15 seconds to visit the EranBot reporting page and check a few of the flagged concerns. Comments welcome regarding potential improvements. These likely copyright violations can be searched by WikiProject categories. Use "control-f" to jump to your area of interest.--Lucas559 (talk) 22:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi,

I have a request and a question :

• The Portal:Supercentenarians has been left unfinished by Leoj83 since september. Could somebody finish it ?
• Is the List of supercentenarians who died before 1980 complete or not ? ie. is there any unexploited sources or something like that ? (it's for a matter of Authors' rights/pma, I need to know who was the oldest people to die at specific years like 1951 and 1941)

Cdlt, VIGNERON * ^discut. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VIGNERON (talk • contribs) 17:37, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

This Wikiproject is a complete mess and needs help. Editing is going nowhere as we're just going back and forth and sooner or later someone's going to get blocked and nothing will be fixed. I agree with the above discussion in that the country articles need a serious look at before the other articles can be fixed. So how do we proceed? Pinging everyone either active in this topic area (User:Waenceslaus, User:Ollie231213, User:930310), User:Inception2010) had/s experience in this topic area (User:DerbyCountyinNZ, User:Randykitty, User:The Blade of the Northern Lights, User:EEng) and those that participated in the discussion above (User:Ca2james, User:Ricky81682). Color and original research need to be addressed. Every name in every table needs a source or it needs to be removed. I'd suggest looking at the "chronological list of oldest person" sections first. If sources cannot be found that states that a person was oldest from death of previous, then the table needs to be removed. I'm not 100% sure if the oldest in Britain website is reliable for Wikipedia or not. Opinions? Not sure how the color concerns get addressed either. Perhaps something like the List of supercentenarians who died in 2014 for example? Once the country articles are looking solid, we can tackle the other "lists of" pages and the individual bios as many could be redirected/deleted without loss of information. purple monkey dishwasher CommanderLinx (talk) 17:46, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I was in fact planning to make a post on this talk page about this project, and more specifically its guidelines. The ones that exist currently are outdated and are being used as a tool to remove information on articles in the scope of this project. Let me firstly put forward my views on these:

1. Let's start with this statement: "There is currently no consensus about the reliability of the tables of data hosted at www.grg.org, nor of the journal Rejuvenation Research." ---> I don't know much about

Sakari Momoi, Jeralean Talley, etc., and you will see that most articles reference the GRG (i.e. "according to the Gerontology Research Group"). This, this, and this are but a few examples. I understand that there may have been some disagreement about the reliability of this source but consensus appears to have changed over the last few years based on greater media acceptance. The GRG is also considered an authority on longevity by Guinness World Records

.

2. "Gerontology Research Group data from grg.org should be attributed and used only as backup for reliable sources." ---> No, it should be the OTHER WAY AROUND. It's the news outlets that quote the GRG! The GRG does the initial work to verify people's ages, which the media certainly do not do - just take this article about a "160" year old man.

3. The final point regarding the GRG is that being verified and included on the GRG tables does count as coverage in reliable sources. Supercentenarians are not celebrities like Kim Kardashian who are just famous for being famous - their notability should not be determined purely by the amount of media coverage they get. This issue was debated at Lucy Hannah's AfD. She's the third oldest person ever, living to the age of 117, but was not covered widely in the press. On the other hand, it's common to see people as young as 100 covered in media articles. Does that make Lucy Hannah less notable for her longevity than a 100 year old? No of course not.

4. "Some long-lived people are notable principally for their advanced age, e.g., Jeanne Calment. If the individual is not notable in any other way, the article is subject to Wikipedia policy guidance on one-event biographies." --->

The "one event" guideline is meant to deal with people who, say, were witnesses to an event but were not largely involved, but who might have been interviewed by the press. It's these kind of people who are only notable for being involved in one event and are likely to remain to low-profile. In other words, people whose notability is not substantial or long-lasting. On the other hand, as discussed at Antonia Gerena Rivera's AfD

, longevity is not "one event" - it's an integral part of the person. Furthermore, someone who holds a record is notable in the long-term, because that record lasts for a (often long) period of time.

This leads me on nicely to my next point, which is this: I feel that some people hold the view that supercentenarians aren't important/aren't famous. This has been the most-persistent issue recently - the push to delete supercentenarian articles as "not important", "one event," Firstly, the media itself shows that someone can be famous for age alone (such as Jeanne Calment). The question after that is: "how famous"? Consensus seems to be that "World's oldest person" and "world's oldest man" titleholders generally merit an article, but after that, there is no consensus. Secondly, a birthday party is "one event," but someone setting a record such as "Minnesota's oldest person on record" is a recurring citation, as I have discussed above. Take, for example, this article about 110 year old Hermina Wahlin. This article references

Catherine Hagel

, Minnesota's all-time longevity record holder, who died in 2008. Also, two birthdays are two events...someone turning 113, 114, 115, 116, etc. is a person with multiple-event coverage.

Regarding your question about the Oldest in Britain website, you can see that it is maintained by Dr Andrew Holmes, who is the GRG's correspondent for England, Scotland, and Wales. It is definitely reliable.

Finally, I will address the original question of "how do we proceed?". Firstly, I appreciate that sourcing is an issue in certain articles, particularly "chronological list of oldest people in country X" articles. Something needs to be done about that. But certain users, such as yourself CommanderLinx, need to take a more positive approach to editing. Looking at your user contributions, almost all of your edits involve removing information or placing tags on articles. That's all very well, as long as you also make an attempt to add content to articles to improve them. But you don't, and in the past, you have even taken it upon yourself to redirect biography articles (effectively deleting their content) without gaining consensus, which is not on. Maybe consider trying to search for some citations yourself. For example, you added "citation needed" tags to Emma Tillman's article. I did a quick Google search and was able to find plenty of citations to add and cleaned up the article.

So in summary, we all need to work together to not only solve the problem of unsourced content, but to recognise that people can be notable for their longevity and also to improve longevity-related articles by making constructive contributions. Sorry for the long-winded post. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 19:41, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

First, Ollie, nothing is gained by labeling people as "positive" or "negative" editors here. If someone wants to add content, fine, if someone thinks that the content should be fixed, that's also fine as long as it's not overall disruptive (and placing tags in and of themselves is not considered disruptive). This WikiProject has gotten in trouble with Arbcom specifically because it only wanted to let in people who "supported" the project, regardless of how the sourcing and other issues worked within the greater Wikipedia policies and procedures. The issue isn't "is GRG reliable or not" on its own. The issue is context. GRG is generally I think reliable for general points about oldest people (and it's been used that way) but it depends on whether we are talking about the GRG peer reviewed papers as a source or simply their webpages. The real question is if GRG alone is sufficient as a reliable source on a person's birth and death dates (i.e. their age)? No one is really disputing the peer reviewed material, just the use of their webpages alone. My view is that GRG was doing their analysis based on secondary source review and while they are experts on something (it's not aging itself but basically on data regarding the oldest people I'd say), they aren't say experts on birth certificates from 100 years or death certificate or history in general or the other points, that's not their training necessarily. For that reason, I'd say we need to have another source (even if it's a secondary peer-reviewed source that just supports the GRG), even if it's a pretty lazily done newspaper source, that supports the claim. In that line, absent some particularly terrible almost absurd newspaper source, even if the GRG doesn't include them, I think it's fair to include other names here as well. I think the best thing would be a general RFC on sourcing rather than individual discussions like this. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:47, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Let's say "constructive" editing then (used to mean actually searching for citations and adding content sometimes, rather than just removing content or adding tags). As for your comments about the GRG, they appear misinformed.

1. They are the ones who do the research to verify the person's age, so I don't see how any other source can be more reliable than the GRG for a person's birth and death dates. I also don't know how you can be an "expert" in birth certificates. How much expertise do you need to say that if someone has a birth certificate saying "born 1 January 1900", then they were born on 1 January 1900?

2. The GRG is an authority on ageing. Just look at their publications in scientific journals.

3. Why would a terrible second newspaper source be helpful? -- Ollie231213 (talk) 21:36, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I have to agree with Ollie231213 on GRG as a reliable source. Any other source on age verification whether newspaper or academic, traces back to the GRG. On the notability of supercentenarians, we have thousands of articles on cartoons, TV, and movie characters, many much longer than any articles on supercentenarians. I think if cartoons are notable enough for Wikipedia, the extraordinary lives of supercentenarians (as covered in reliable sources) are clearly notable. And certainly a life is not merely an event. --I am One of Many (talk) 21:57, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if GRG is a reliable source. It's been brought up at

WP:RSN

and try to get consensus from the community on whether GRG or any portion of it is a reliable source.

Whether or not GRG is determined by the larger community to be reliable, we need to find other reliable sources to support the information in the tables. Are there any? If information in the tables isn't supported by reliable sources, it can't be included in Wikipedia, full stop. This isn't about these people being not important; it's about sourcing.

While the GRG RSN discussion is ongoing, I think removing the "pending" indication on tables is the next step because that's an internal GRG designation; for Wikipedia readers, the information is not verified by the GRG. Ca2james (talk) 01:01, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

The problem with declaring that GRG is not a reliable source is that any resulting tables become encyclopedically meaningless. Treat any source that passes RS as have the same validity as the GRG (or any other independent organisation with similar standards/purpose (if only!)) is that we would end up with one list including GRG verified, unverified and the fringe entries at Longevity claims. I don't see how that would improve Wiki. On the other hand I totally agree that GRG pending cases should be treated as unverified and any such cases removed from any lists which are for (GRG verified) supercentenarians only. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 04:21, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Why is it such a bug bear to you that the GRG is the only widely recognised organisation that verifies supercentenarian's ages? -- Ollie231213 (talk) 11:45, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

• @Ca2james - Three of those discussions you linked are over four years old. As for the recent one about Violet Brown, read the discussion on the talk page. I will repeat what I said above: I don't see how any other source could be more reliable than one that actually verifies the ages of supercentenarians. Derby is right in the sense that if you give other "reliable" sources as much weight as the GRG, you will end up with tables including both Jeanne Calment and the "160" year old man I mentioned above. Furthermore, the media very often quotes the GRG, and they have many publications in scientific journals. How could they not be considered reliable? -- Ollie231213 (talk) 11:37, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

The fact that the discussions are so old is a good reason to take this to RSN again. It is true that if GRG tables are found not to be reliable by the larger community, many of the pages associated with this project will be decimated unless other sources can be found. However, that's not a reason not to find out what the community thinks. This discussion has been ongoing for years and some closure on it would be welcome, I would think.

"Reliability" on Wikipedia is a

WP:SOURCE says to [b]ase articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy and that [t]he appropriateness of any source depends on the context. This means that a source may be reliable for some things but not others (ie context matters) and is why I would think that the "verified" table is reliable to support information regarding its entries (because the information in it is fact-checked) but the other tables wouldn't be reliable (because fact-checking is not complete). Ca2james (talk

) 16:00, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

• @Ca2james - Once more, I have to repeat it here, it is the great majority of the community, that consider the Gerontology Research Group as a reliable source in respect of extreme longevity tracking and supercentenarian study. The GRG is accepted as a reliable source by many, many organizations outside Wikipedia. The most prominent outside sources such as the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Smithsonian also do consider the GRG as the reliable source. The number of citations of the GRG is growing rapidly. Also in the foreign press, as the GRG is an international scientific organization, that has a considerable number of international correspondents and conducts its research worldwide.

The GRG has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Its work is very well organized. The international correspondents and other researchers perform the primary research. Then, each evidence and/or discovery in carefully reviewed by the GRG headship, which consists of professionals; people, whose names appear as authors of publications in scientific peer-reviewed journals, which are listed [[5]]. After final acceptance of each case of extreme longevity (which is a complex process), the GRG publishes information on its website. That is the secondary source, for which the Wikipedia seeks. Wikipedia itself is a tertiary source. So, the hierarchy of sources and its reliability are not an issue in the case of the GRG.

The world news system accepts the GRG as a reliable source. Thus the massive amount of citations in world's press in many different languages. Also, the Guinness World Records accepts the GRG as a reliable source. It is proven by the fact, that the world news system looks to GWR and the GRG for stories regarding age-verified supercentenarian claims.

The extreme longevity tracking and supercentenarian study might be considered as a young branch of science. However, is it really so? I am reminded, that the first man, who has verified a supercentenarian case was Alexander Graham Bell, the inventor of the phone, among other. Mr. Bell has verified the authenticity of age of Mrs. Ann Pouder, who lived between 1807-1917. The Gerontology Research Group itself, has been founded in 1990. This predates Wikipedia by more than a decade.

Finally, as long as the GRG publishes and updates the GRG Table EE for pending supercentenarian cases, the table cannot be considered as internal GRG designation, for the reason, that it is available publicly. What is more, it is not true, that the pending supercentenarian cases are not verified. In fact, they are already pending-validated. For every supercentenarian, who appears in the GRG table EE, there is a source of validation provided. The primary source. The existence of the GRG table EE is one of the elements of the very careful inspection of the GRG in the presented data and into each individual case. All that is done for the sake of the perfect reliability of the presented data. In fact, 99% of pending cases are eventually accepted. However, such such measures are taken for the sake of the 1%. This is another proof, that the Gerontology Research Group works very professional and its reliability in respect of longevity and verified supercentenarians' population is unquestionable.

Therefore, instead of looking for opportunities to undermine the authority of the GRG (which is indisputable), I would suggest to appreciate, that such source exists, because hence the greater public education on about how long can people truly live, is achieved. Moreover, GRG's work allows the further improvement of the the state of our knowledge on the subject.

Sincerely,Waenceslaus (talk) 20:33, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm not saying that the GRG tables aren't used in other places or that they're not considered an authority; I'm saying that they may not meet Wikipedia's definition of a reliable source and that the community's input is needed. I have brought this up at

RSN so hopefully we'll get an answer from the community. Ca2james (talk

) 16:31, 14 July 2015 (UTC)