Talk:GrapheneOS: Difference between revisions

Computing: Software / Free and open-source software Start‑class Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Computing, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of computers, computing, and information technology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ComputingWikipedia:WikiProject ComputingTemplate:WikiProject ComputingComputing articles Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Software (assessed as Low-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject Computer Security (assessed as Low-importance). This article is supported by Free and open-source software (assessed as Low-importance). Things you can help WikiProject Computer Security with: edit history watch purge AAlertBot. Please allow some days for processing. More information... Answer question about Same-origin_policy Review importance and quality of existing articles Identify categories related to Computer Security Tag related articles Identify articles for creation (see also: Article requests) Identify articles for improvement Create the Project Navigation Box including lists of adopted articles, requested articles, reviewed articles, etc. Find editors who have shown interest in this subject and ask them to take a look here.

Linux Start‑class Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Linux, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Linux on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LinuxWikipedia:WikiProject LinuxTemplate:WikiProject LinuxLinux articles Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

A fact from GrapheneOS appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 15 January 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that GrapheneOS, a free and open-source operating system for selected Google Pixel smartphones, was recommended by Edward Snowden? A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/January. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/GrapheneOS.

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 11:58, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

GrapheneOS logo

• ... that GrapheneOS (logo pictured) is a free and open-source operating system for selected Google Pixel smartphones, which was recommended by Edward Snowden? Source: "GrapheneOS is an AOSP (Android Open Source Project)", "GrapheneOS can only be installed on certain smartphones from the Google Pixel range." "There is recognition on Twitter by Edward Snowden : "If I configured a smartphone today, I would use GrapheneOS from Daniel Micay as the basic operating system."" [1]

• Comment: Quotes for the hook are translations from German

Created by Yae4 (talk). Self-nominated at 15:35, 16 December 2019 (UTC).[reply]

• Moved to mainspace on 16 December and nominated straight away. Article is long enough, stable, well written and referenced. Earwig's tool doesn't show any problems (many of the key sources are in German, so close paraphrasing is difficult to detect automatically, but a spotcheck shows no problems; AGF on Hungarian/Czech/Turkish sources). Hook is long enough, referenced, and certainly catchy. Image is used in the article, appropriate, and correctly licensed. Article author has no prior DYK noms, so no QPQ is required. In conclusion, good to go. Constantine ✍ 20:14, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what's going on here, User:AngusWOOF, but this page now exists, and I've moved my edits (more sources) there. Maybe this draft could be binned now? -- Yae4 (talk) 18:48, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Someone bypassed the draft process. I've moved that one back to draft as (2). AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 19:03, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'll list my 3 best - based on my guess as to "professionalism" or having editorial staff, and amount of detail included in articles - here. Otherwise I'll wait for some indication it's not going to be a waste of time before spending much more. It seems to have international attention from a variety of sources, although some are blogs etc.:

0. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/gadgets-news/doing-these-6-difficult-things-may-make-your-smartphone-hack-proof/articleshow/71252998.cms

1. https://www.origo.hu/techbazis/20190403-grapheneos-android-alapu-biztonsagos-rendszer.html

2. https://hub.packtpub.com/androidhardening-project-renamed-to-grapheneos-to-reflect-progress-and-expansion-of-the-project/ and

3. https://andro4all.com/2019/06/grapheneos-alternativa-android-caracteristicas

-- Yae4 (talk) 20:59, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:AngusWOOF, why was the article quickly moved back to draft, but SO slow to be moved to "active?" Wondering. -- Yae4 (talk) 16:31, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:RSP to me so I tried to stay out. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 16:36, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

​ AngusWOOF, Below is more information supporting reliable sourcing.

• TimesofIndia source - Although Wikipedia is not reliable, The_Times_of_India says it's "third-largest newspaper in India by circulation and the second-largest selling English-language daily in the world." Wikipedia search shows 7290 hits in articles. Many are entertainment related, but phones are used for entertainment too, so it seems good for establishing notability.
• packtpub source has been used 20 times according to Wikipedia search. More articles look technical.
• Origo.hu (hungarian) source - Although Wikipedia is not reliable,
  Origo.hu (redirected) says, it "is a major Hungarian language news website founded in 1998..." Search shows
  471 hits.
• DerStandard (german or austrian) source - Although Wikipedia is not reliable, Der_Standard says it is a major German language newspaper (print and online) in Austria. Wikipedia article search shows 490 hits.

I believe these, at least, demonstrate notability with reliable sources, based if nothing else, on many previous uses at Wikipedia. That's not always a guarantee, but combined with 3 sources having Wikipedia articles indicating decent reputations, I believe this should be sufficient. FYI, I have nothing to do with GrapheneOS (although I would give it a test run if I owned the right kind of phone). Could you please move this to an article? -- Yae4 (talk) 18:25, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I don't think this draft has clearly established notability yet. Some of the sources focus on

reliable sources noticeboard could help judge these borderline sources. Note that there are quite a few high-profile RfCs on that noticeboard at the moment, so a discussion might not get as much attention as usual. — Newslinger talk 11:59, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

​​ Times of India source lists 6 things to do to make your phone "hack proof." One of the 6 (17%) is install GrapheneOS. Yes, it's based on Snowden recommendation, which is why it got attention, but it is not just passing mention. Packt Hub source is focused almost only on GrapheneOS and Micay, and pre-dates the Snowden news. To me it doesn't look like a blog. Origo Hu source is solely on GrapheneOS and Micay. It's news, not blog. Der Standard is news, not blog. Yes, prompted by Snowden recommendation, but it's the only phone ROM recommended. Then there's several blog-like geek news sources that also covered it. For ROMs not actively doing PR (it appears), that's about as good as it gets. I don't know if precedents matter on Wikipedia, but sourcing for this article seems better than Resurrection_Remix_OS, OmniROM, and Smartisan_OS. -- Yae4 (talk) 16:28, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Passing the

proposed deletion of the Resurrection Remix OS article, and tagged the others as needing more sources. — Newslinger talk 06:04, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

This makes 2 for 2 on unexpected results related to discussions on this draft... Not moved to article, and proposed deletion of another article... Oh well. -- Yae4 (talk) 19:03, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry,

significant coverage requirement. I hope this helps. — Newslinger talk 00:17, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

To me it is a thorough review, but what seems to be a good source. -- Yae4 (talk) 18:54, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Did you know" starts immediately after you publish, if you're interested in submitting a hook for GrapheneOS. — Newslinger talk 05:51, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Actually, before you move the article, I would remove the citations to the websites that clearly aren't usable:

• Gadgets Now - This is a republished version of The Times of India article that is already cited.
• https://www.osnews.com/story/129778/grapheneos-an-android-based-security-hardened-open-source-os/ – The content of this blog post is taken from this Liliputing article without attribution. I'm not linking to this because
  copyright violations
  .
• TechHype – Appears to be a
  user-generated post from a social networking site in the form of Reddit and Digg
  .
• TuttoAndroid – No staff list. Also appears to be a summarized translation of this Liliputing article.
• ScoopSquare24 – The quality of the text is very low. I see obvious grammatical errors everywhere. Also, their team page is broken.
• https://bioreports.net/grapheneos/ – This page copies the GrapheneOS home page.

— Newslinger talk 06:30, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

​ Thanks! Deleted others as listed. It's new, just long enough by my count; not sure about the "hook" thing; within policy AFAIK; Also don't know about the QPQ thing. I would move it, except last time I tried, I ran into problems because of the re-direct, so I'd appreciate some help with that. -- Yae4 (talk) 15:38, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Great job,

quid pro quo requirement is waived for your first 5 DYK nominations. If you want to see GrapheneOS mentioned on the Main Page, DYK just needs a short, interesting fact about GrapheneOS that's supported by a reliable source. — Newslinger talk 23:22, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Thanks for all your help, Newslinger, and thanks for the star. Jumped through the hoops for the hook, and we'll see what happens with DYK. -- Yae4 (talk) 15:52, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I recently undid this edit, which removed List of custom Android distributions from and added CopperheadOS to the "See also" section. This is because:

• GrapheneOS is listed in
  Reliable sources are still describing GrapheneOS as Android-based ("Android basierende
  "). Until there are substantial changes in GrapheneOS's software architecture, calling it an Android distribution is reasonable to me.
• We're not supposed to add links to the "See also" section that duplicate links in the article body. See
  MOS:NOTSEEALSO
  .

— Newslinger talk 00:45, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's Android-based but Android distribution seems misleading to me. According to the developer, it already makes changes deviating from what's required to be Android:

GrapheneOS is explicitly not Android, because it deliberately doesn't conform to the Compatibility Definition Document and Compatibility Test Suite requirements for considering an OS to be part of the Android family. It's entirely possible to make an OS with an entirely different kernel and software stack that's allowed to be referred to as Android as long as it is fully meets the compatibility and other requirements. Those are the rules for using the trademark. I make fair use of that trademark by referring to GrapheneOS as being almost entirely fully compatible with Android apps. It's not entirely compatible though since it deliberately makes restrictions for privacy/security that are not permitted by the CDD / CTS. [...] However, that doesn't mean I can refer to GrapheneOS as literally being Android since it's not a matter of copyright law / software licenses.

So they are not actually distributing Android but something else. Perhaps the article List of custom Android distributions should be renamed but I think this talk page is not the place to discuss this and I do not have a "reliable" source other than the Android documentation (https://source.android.com/compatibility/cdd).

We're not supposed to add links to the "See also" section that duplicate links in the article body.

Yes, I missed that link. 187.160.10.45 (talk) 11:04, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for responding. I see what you mean, since GrapheneOS is not able to describe itself as "Android" due to trademark restrictions. @

request to move the List of custom Android distributions article to a more generic name like List of Android-based operating systems? — Newslinger talk 11:18, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

Removing GrapheneOS from List of custom Android distributions doesn't make sense because the other entries do not meet the requirements to be called Android either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.160.10.45 (talk) 12:13, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We're supposed to rely on the language used in reliable sources regardless of the preference of the trademark holder. For example,

requested move for List of custom Android distributions. If the list gets renamed, the "See also" link would be updated here. — Newslinger talk 12:35, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

@Newslinger: I'm OK with including the list of "custom Android distributions." The compatibility document seems to be primarily for hardware requirements for compatibility with Android operating system (including Google services), and we're talking about operating system (and default apps) software here. It says, for example, "Where this definition or the software tests described in section 10 is silent, ambiguous, or incomplete, it is the responsibility of the device implementer to ensure compatibility with existing implementations. For this reason, the Android Open Source Project is both the reference and preferred implementation of Android. Device implementers are STRONGLY RECOMMENDED to base their implementations to the greatest extent possible on the “upstream” source code available from the Android Open Source Project." Thus, for these purposes, if the operating system starts from AOSP, which GrapheneOS does as I understand, then calling it a "custom Android distribution" works for me, and it's what sources call it too. If Graphene becomes more significantly different, then it could move to a different list like Comparison_of_mobile_operating_systems, and be moved from Mobile_operating_system#Android. -- Yae4 (talk) 12:38, 20 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

​​Quotes from golem.de source:

• "Micay and Graphene users repeatedly stress a lack of developers and maintainers."
• "So far GrapheneOS, like its predecessor Copperhead OS, has been developed almost entirely by him, says Micay."
• "A few developers have started to contribute to GrapheneOS."
• In concluding remarks: "We are also a bit worried about how few developers and maintainers are currently working on GrapheneOS - the project is currently more like a one-man show."

In balance, the article is saying it's a "one-man show" with a start of some other contributions. It does not support saying GrapheneOS has a team of developers. -- Yae4 (talk) 16:38, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• "Micay and Graphene users repeatedly stress a lack of developers and maintainers." - does not indicate that there is a single developer, but rather an overall lack of developers / maintainers.
• "So far GrapheneOS, like its predecessor Copperhead OS, has been developed almost entirely by him, says Micay." - does not indicate that there is a single developer, but rather than the lead developer has done most but explicitly not all of the work. In fact, that sentence implies that there are other developers doing a subset of the work. Also, in this sentence, it's largely the historical work being talked about. Since the project has historically had a single developer (not anymore), of course the bulk of the work was done by a single developer. The other developers have not been around for the vast majority of the lifetime of the project. The amount of the project created by a developer does not reflect the current division of work between them, and there are explicitly other people working on the project including people the project refers to as officially being involved.
• "A few developers have started to contribute to GrapheneOS." - which is the source stating that other developers had started to contribute to the project at the time of the article being written. Therefore, it is clearly incorrect to state that there is a single developer.
• "We are also a bit worried about how few developers and maintainers are currently working on GrapheneOS" - which once again refers to there being a development team, with Daniel Micay doing the bulk of the work at that time. An uneven division of work does not justify claiming there is a single developer. Events have also occurred since then, such as Pixel 4 support being launched based on community support. The golem.de source is a high quality article providing a historical snapshot but is not up-to-date coverage of the most recent state of the project. It's usable to explain the state of the project at a particular point in time, but not the current state of it. At that time, it did have multiple developers that had come on board, and the project itself shows that those developers / others are still around.

"It does not support saying GrapheneOS has a team of developers." - strongly disagree. It supports stating that there is a development team led by Daniel Micay. It definitely does not support claiming that there are not other developers working on it as that's explicitly in contradiction with the sources. You could state that the OS is primarily developed by Daniel Micay with help from some other developers / contributors, but that's not going to fit well into the infobox. The previous infobox claiming that there was only a single developer conflicts with the sources. The project itself states that it has multiple developers too, which is verifiable due to the open source nature of it, and while those aren't secondary sources it is wrong to deliberately make an inaccurate article based on cherry-picking and misinterpreting from a source.

Even with the way that you've cherry-picked quotations from the source, it doesn't back up what you're saying, and reading the source with the full context presents a much different story.

If you're going to be reverting all of my work, can you please do separate reverts with specific reasons instead of rolling back my changes with a generic reason that does not apply to all of the changes you are rolling back.

Note: Signature copied and new section started below by Yae4 to separate topics...Pitchcurve (talk) 19:46, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Pitchcurve:

• When the article was created in July 2019, it said developer: Daniel Micay.
• When I brought the golem.de source to this article and to this Talk page and convinced Admin Newslinger it was time to the page from Draft to Article space, it said developer: Daniel Micay.
• When I and others helped get the article on the front page of Wikipedia, in January 2020, after extensive review, it said developer: Daniel Micay.
• Have you brought a new source? No. The same golem.de source should NOT now be interpreted to say developer: GrapheneOS development team led by Daniel Micay The source has not changed. You just want this article to say something different.
• Go ahead and show us some convincing links from github, or better, new reliable secondary sources, supporting "development team led by Daniel Micay."
• In general, please start bringing specific sources and quotes to support your positions. That would be much more convincing than TL;DR arguments.

-- Yae4 (talk) 21:23, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The golem.de source states that are multiple developers. Your own points attempting to support your argument show that there are multiple developers involved. In many cases, you're pushing a narrative not based on the sources and are inventing facts / details to fill in the gaps as you see fit. You can say that my arguments are "TL;DR" but they are based on the sources, unlike your claims. https://github.com/GrapheneOS shows that there is 1 other core developer with repository access who has made their organization membership public (by default, organization membership is private - you can see from actions in the bug tracker and elsewhere that there are other members that have not toggled their membership to public) along with 1 outside collaborator with commit access to one of the repositories. You can see for yourself that there are ~4-6 developers working on various repositories (look at PdfViewer, Auditor, AttestationServer, Vanadium, platform_bionic, etc.). I am not sure why there's a need to refer to GitHub when the article you reference yourself states that there are multiple developers and that Daniel Micay is the main / lead developer. I am not debating that Daniel Micay did the majority of the work on the project (it is becoming much less true particularly since the Pixel 4 has device maintainers rather than him doing it all), but it is incorrect to refer to him as the only developer.

Mistakes that were made during the creation of the article are not a justification to keep inaccurate information. It's not a point in favor of the inaccurate information. It not being noticed during the creation of the article doesn't justify it. You cannot use past versions of the Wikipedia article as a reference for itself.

GrapheneOS itself has repeatedly brought up that one of their developers was threatened by Copperhead: https://renlord.com/posts/2020-03-25-copperheados-legal-threat/. This isn't covered by a secondary source as far as I know so I don't think it should be included in the article - but I really don't know how you can claim that the project has a single developer. Pitchcurve (talk) 22:21, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(unindenting)@Pitchcurve:

• Alternative 0: Developer: Daniel Micay

Long-standing wording, based on secondary sources. This says there is one main person. Readers understand there are others also involved. This is like Replicant, which lists a few names.

• Alternative 1: Developer: GrapheneOS development team led by Daniel Micay

Your proposed wording for the infobox. This is too long, implies an organization, probably a company, with a leader and followers. To my knowledge (which is based on what I've seen in secondary sources, and looking briefly at github), this over-states, or exaggerates both the reality, and what secondary sources say.

• Alternative 2: Developer: Daniel Micay and contributors

To me this is also supported by secondary sources, but looks odd, because "and contributors" is obvious and understood (i.e. extraneous).

• Alternative 3: Developer: GrapheneOS team

This is like

• Alternative 4: Developer: GrapheneOS community

This is like LineageOS or OmniROM.

I'm OK with either of Alternative 0, 3, or 4. Other opinions? -- Yae4 (talk) 17:53, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please explain how "The main developer, Daniel Micay, was the creator and lead developer of CopperheadOS until he left the company and continued the open source project as GrapheneOS." is not backed up by the golem.de reference and the others. And what about "After the schism between the two founders of Copperhead, Micay renamed the open source project to the Android Hardening project and then later to GrapheneOS to reflect the revived state of the project"? Why are you rolling back both of these sentences in the same change as the others? Also, where's your source for 64-bit ARM being the only supported architecture? The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux article does not claim that 0 architectures are supported just because they are only supported for builds from source. Also, looking across the articles for Linux distributions, this information is obtained from the website / documentation for the distribution rather than expecting all the trivia to be available in up-to-date secondary sources. Listing out the architectures the project says it supports really shouldn't be controversial. Pitchcurve (talk) 19:46, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@

WP:NPOV or the sources, in my opinion. Re: X86_64 etc., When I went to verify the primary source, I found only a mention that it was tested, not available for download or using. So it looks like advertising something not really available. In general, a lot of these kind of articles list far too many non-encyclopedic details, but it is often tolerated in these topics almost nobody cares about or reads. -- Yae4 (talk) 21:23, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

I'd be happy to remove the architecture field, but if it is included, it should be accurate. There is no basis for claiming that only arm64 is supported. It is not based on a source. It should be removed or left as the corrected version. Either way, that is solution to the problem of inaccurate information. It's you that wants to claim that it only supports arm64 so where is your source? It conflicts with the website (which is the only place where architecture support appears to be discussed) and isn't accurate.

You're repeatedly making unsupported changes based on your incorrect interpretations and assumptions. You keep accusing others of doing what you are doing which is writing content not matching the sources.

Per the source, arm64 is supported in the same state as x86_64. There are no official builds for arm64, but rather specific arm64 devices. It states that there are official releases / support for generic 32/64-bit arm, x86 and mips but that production releases / official builds are made for specific devices. I don't know where you get the information that it specifically only supports arm64.

The sources are definitely available for download and the official release announcements include the tagged source releases (in fact, they only link the source releases, not the official builds for specific devices). I don't know why you're claiming it's not available for download. It is an open source project and just like Gentoo something being supported does not imply there is an official build available. Source-based distributions are a thing.

Pitchcurve (talk) 22:11, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Pitchcurve: I'm OK with deleting the platform field in the infobox. Or, if an accurate, brief list can be put in the infobox, with wiki-links similar to LineageOS, then I'm OK with that. It would be ideal if the infobox summarized the article, based on what secondary sources say. However, I realize that is not always the case for this type of article. That said, I'm not OK with turning this article into an advertisement, or adding more and more material based only on primary sources. -- Yae4 (talk) 18:18, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is not discussed in the secondary sources. I've redone it and used their site as the source for the time being, which matches what is done for articles like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux.

GrapheneOS itself refers to support for 32/64-bit ARM, 32/64-bit x86 and 32/64-bit MIPS at a source level. Official builds are only made available for a selection of devices they deem to meet their standards and have the resources to support. There are no official generic 64-bit ARM builds but rather that is only supported at a source level. The only official builds are for a selection of Pixel phones at the moment. It's not accurate to suggest that it has official builds targeting 64-bit ARM generically, when in fact 64-bit ARM has the same level of support as x86_64 including official Vanadium releases (multiple secondary sources cover Auditor and Vanadium so the article should probably mention those). 32-bit ARM, 32-bit x86 and 32/64-bit MIPS are supported at a lower tier, but are supported nonetheless.

Where is a source for it only supported 64-bit ARM to counter what their own site says about the project? In a case where a secondary source is not available, I do not think coming up with the information out of thin air rather than referencing the official documentation is appropriate. Most Wikipedia articles retrieve this assortment of trivia for the infobox (supported architectures, most recent release, etc.) from the project's own documentation / announcements.

The sources do not differentiate arm64 as having special support, other than Vanadium only having official builds for x86_64 / arm64. Official builds being available for a selection of devices that are arm64 devices does not imply that arm64 in general has special support. That is not stated by any available source, and is an inference being made here that's not correct. The reason I changed it from saying "ARM" to "64-bit ARM" is because that made even less sense. At least there's some basis for arm64 being special compared to the others i.e. the fact that the official builds are for devices that are arm64 - but generic arm64 releases are in the same state as x86_64.

Pitchcurve (talk) 20:06, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Pitchcurve: Repeating above section response: I'm OK with deleting the platform field in the infobox. Or, if an accurate, brief list can be put in the infobox, with wiki-links similar to LineageOS, then I'm OK with that. It would be ideal if the infobox summarized the article, based on what secondary sources say. However, I realize that is not always the case for this type of article. That said, I'm not OK with turning this article into an advertisement, or adding more and more material based only on primary sources. -- Yae4 (talk) 18:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This inconsistency has been in the article since early versions.[2] I note the golem.de source says "free software" when discussing F-droid, It says "real open source project" (paraphrasing Micay) when discussing licensing terms. Which of the above two wiki-links is a better fit? Also, the infobox lists MIT and Apache licenses; are those the only two? -- Yae4 (talk) 12:35, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• In Reception, "devices" was added after "other Android." My interpretation is the article is referring to use of GrapheneOS compared with other Android operating systems, not to "devices."[3] Neither is explicitly stated in that context, so I think the word "devices" should not be added there. Relevant excerpt:

"In the test we could use GrapheneOS like any other Android. We enjoy the Google freedom, we don't notice the additional memory protection, but that's the way it should be. It is regrettable that the development of a secure Android was set back by the dispute of the Copperhead founders. We are also a bit worried about how few developers and maintainers are currently working on GrapheneOS - the project is currently more like a one-man show."

The source does go on to discuss "compatible devices" and the "pity" there "are only a few." This article currently mentions devices becoming "garbage" in a neutral fashion; however, it does not balance it with the criticism. In conjunction with adding Pixel 4 and 4XL in Compatibility section based only on a primary source, this begins to look like adding advertising and ignoring criticism, which is non-neutral.

• In Developer, the wording has been changed significantly[4], and sourcing has only been re-arranged; no new secondary sources added.
  • golem.de does not call Micay the "creator" (wording added), only that he "co-founded" the project and was the "main developer".
  • golem.de does not say anything about "the revived state" (wording added) as a reason for renaming from Android Hardening to GrapheneOS, only that developer Micay "Micay wants to continue the development of Copperhead OS and the Android Hardening project with GrapheneOS." If anything, the statement should be more clear Micay is the source being paraphrased, and not state the renaming explanation in Wikipedia voice.

I am therefore re-instating previous wordings. -- Yae4 (talk) 14:04, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Daniel micay has in the grapheneos matrix room stated that he wants and has nothing to do with us politics. So, he also wants nothing to do with other people selling phone with grapheneOS. But has stated if they misuse the trademark (grapheneOS logo), he will take legal action against them. It maybe suitable to say while they are using this OS as a base, the project owner has stated they don't agree with them with a clear no racism stance. But since it was in a chat room it cannot be linked as a source.

Mainly to discuss how to present this and what the developers stance is. Vodoyo (talk) 16:08, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Vodoyo: Interesting developments. The court filing[5] also discusses "business deals with criminal organizations" more on Copperhead, but overlaps background of Graphene history. Omerta digital is advertising phones with GrapheneOS. [6] It's a primary source, but may deserve mention in the article? Breitbart is banned at wikipedia IIUC, and all the quoted twitter posts are not reliable. (https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2021/01/09/free-speech-platform-gab-reports-750-increase-in-traffic/) AR15.com is a forum, self-published source, so also not reliable.[7] Do you have any reliable or primary sources covering it? -- Yae4 (talk) 15:38, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've been removing these warnings placed here without any real justification:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=GrapheneOS&diff=996391974&oldid=992972113
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=GrapheneOS&diff=999890908&oldid=999722148
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:GrapheneOS&diff=1000542668&oldid=999516085

I don't think these should be added back without a talk page discussion with an explanation of why it makes sense. This kind of thing is discouraging making improvements to the article, which it desperately needs.

See Talk:CopperheadOS#Connected_user_status_disagreement about accusations that have been made against editors to these two articles (including myself) in a way that drives away contributors. Many months ago, I was one of the people that Yae4 made accusations against. In the warning notice Yae4 added for User:Pitchcurve, Special:Diff/975851969 is given as the reason, which simply doesn't make any sense. I think it's unfortunate that the improvements to the article were reverted. This article shouldn't be treated as one person's territory rather than basing it on the sources and consensus-based decision making.

This is what an administrator said on the other talk page:

Yae, as far as I am concerned, your repeated focus on the contributors here, rather than the content of the article, has made this article a toxic environment to edit in, and amounts to disruptive editing.

Unfortunately, that appears to have persisted here despite ending for the CopperheadOS page.

I'll also note that they made a similar veiled accusation against me in their recent edit summary, similar to what they did before. 142.126.174.52 (talk) 16:20, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, I was the one to make the second edit(red Daniel Micay) link. I am still new to this, but if I am not wrong Daniel has been credited for lots of security related work on Android, WhonixOS, Rust programming language and obviously this project. These citation are from verifiable and reliable sources. So, I am a bit confused on what exactly would be missing from his page. Thanks in advance for replying :) --Greatder (talk) 03:29, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@142.126.174.52: I'm focusing on articles, sources, edits and facts; not on editors, under threat of a complaint being filed[8] by User:Mr._Stradivarius. I would ask you, 142.126.174.52, to do the same. I didn't think the other discussion applied here, so I re-added the tag. If you feel so strongly about it, fine, I don't really care that much. Re: Red Linking non-existent Micay page, a red link only highlights Micay's non-notability, unless or until a page is drafted. I don't feel too strongly either way, but weakly support leaving it out. Re: Tagging missing lawsuit information. It's clear there are some legal processes happening, as a filing was posted on Graphene's website. A reminder tag, to follow up if/when it hits the "reliable" sources seems OK to me. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to use that primary source now, but it does contain some interesting information.

@Greatder:, Why should we link to a non-existent page? Is anyone working on a Draft? If you can bring reliable sources showing notability, go ahead. -- Yae4 (talk) 20:22, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am working on it, so I would encourage keeping a link to indicate work in progress  :) Greatder (talk) 08:13, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What if anything can be taken from these PDFs of letters and filings from Graphene and Copperhead? [9] [10] [11] -- Yae4 (talk) 13:42, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's generally not a good idea to rely on public documents as

WP:BLPPRIMARY. — Newslinger talk 13:25, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

• Golem.de is a better source than Packtpub.com. Packt has an unfavorable, though old, RSN discussion.[12]
  and the Packt article is currently tagged for poor sourcing, for what that's worth. The Packt source used in this article mainly repeats Micay's twitter, which is not very independent.
• This is original research, but even today, GrapheneOS' AndroidHardening Github calls it "Android Hardening". [13] Usage has been inconsistent, but as far back in time as June 2018, and November 2018, it was called "Android Hardening". [14][15]

Thus, if included, it should be "Android Hardening". -- Yae4 (talk) 11:18, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On the history, the article currently seems misleading, and not consistent with the better source (golem.de). If I understand correctly, Micay was working on "Android Hardening" as part of CopperheadOS. The renaming from "Android Hardening" to "GrapheneOS" was about a year after "the incident", if that refers to the firing of Micay in June 2018, yes, but "Android Hardening" was also part of CopperheadOS, which Micay also worked on.

• In June 2018 the Android Hardening repo "platform_packages_apps_Updater" description said "Automatic background updater for CopperheadOS." (archive link above) This indicates Android Hardening was originally being developed as part of CopperheadOS. By November 2018 it may have been splitting off, but this is not entirely clear.
• As of March 2019 it was still called "Android Hardening". [16]
• In May 2019 it "Android Hardening" was being renamed to GrapheneOS.[17]

• Secondary source golem.de says (translated), "The main developer Daniel Micay wants to continue the development of Copperhead OS as well as the Android Hardening project with GrapheneOS." and "Micay is no stranger to the company; he was co-founder of Copperhead, the company behind the hardened Android system of the same name, as well as its lead developer. In mid-2018, the two founders defected. Then, in April 2019, Micay announced GrapheneOS as the true successor to Copperhead OS, which would functionally inherit it." I interpret "defected" as more like "separated", and these statements are saying Micay is moving from CopperheadOS with "Android Hardening" included, to GrapheneOS with "Android Hardening" included.
• "to better reflect what the project has become" is strange language which seems to have a advertising flavor, not neutral wiki-language.

Therefore, I support removing coverage of "Android Hardening" and including statement on transition from CopperheadOS to GrapheneOS more consistent with the golem.de source. I would also support simply removing the Packtpub source, if it wasn't needed to support notability of the article. -- Yae4 (talk) 11:21, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,

I don't understand why my modification has been canceled. The latest version of GrapheneOS was released the 11/05/2022, not 2 months ago.

I'm doing the modification again, please keep the section updated.

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Didyme33 (talk • contribs) 20:29, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Because the edit also deleted a phrase and tag, without mentioning or justifying in edit summary. -- Yae4 (talk) 16:01, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Adding, re "please keep the section updated": A problem with articles like this is keeping such minutia details up to date, unless setup to be done automatically. -- Yae4 (talk) 16:17, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I see no reason why this has been reverted.

> delete statement based only on twitter - unreliable source This makes absolutely no sense. The text said the GrapheneOS team announced something and I gave a link to the actual announcement by GrapheneOS, which was on Twitter. How is this not a reliable source for this matter?

Gaussgroessereuler (talk) 16:20, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See

WP:RSPTWITTER and links from there. The referenced tweet is not only for "an uncontroversial self-description", and "Tweets that are not covered by reliable sources are likely to constitute undue weight." -- Yae4 (talk) 16:02, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

It is an uncontroversial self-description, though... The text that the source was used for said that GrapheneOS announced something and the tweet contains the announcement by the official GrapheneOS twitter account. I don't see how that would constitute undue weight. Gaussgroessereuler (talk) 20:21, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Controversial - Was it accurate? Did it happen as predicted in a "few months" from February 2022 (i.e. May)? Self-description - No, it involves un-named third parties. Undue weight - See

WP:RSUW. -- Yae4 (talk) 10:07, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

​​Following up: Because an apparently reliable source, Android Police covered the same info', it seems marginally OK for inclusion, although the undue weight issue is still a concern. I still feel we should not link Twitter, although some others editing the article would like to, for selected tweets. I will be seeking independent advice. -- Yae4 (talk) 21:44, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Because there was an edit war, I'll start this. Nothing in cited sources of Special:Diff/1094475710 (nevermind they are user-generated and therefore unreliable anyway) specifically says something to now be proprietary or only "partly" open-source. I don't think the editor in question (nor me) could even link to any source, primary or not, that would non-controversially support the statement that some parts of the project would now be proprietary. At least one of the cited sources seems like a I would like you to... request to remove some code from another project (or multiple projects) due to a schism (or schisms). With further inspection the messages on GitHub seem to be at least a little bit legitimate with deeper inspection (the GitHub issue's OP's profile links to a well-known author with contributions to GrapheneOS repositories), however a regular reader cannot make the correlations from the cited single page alone. I also cannot make that statement in the article, because I would be editorializing and that's not the purpose of Wikipedia; Wikipedia says what other third-party sources say (usually "reliable", even if the definition of "reliable sources" is arguably heavily weighted on "consensus" or virtue signalling with sometimes undue weight based on the language and culture of the wiki, e.g. biased towards Westerner viewpoints on enwiki). This needs reliable third-party sources to be uncontroversial. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 21:45, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If I have to put this in another way, the two problems were:

WP:UGC sources stating claims about third-parties (CalyxOS) that are not found in sources (original research) Wikipedia considers "reliable" for inclusion, even if such claims (in those sources) may be true. Therefore, I've reverted this. 84.250.14.116 (talk) 22:22, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

​​The "not open source" change was actually first suggested, not by me, but by an IP editor[18]. I did not agree with the addition,[19] at first, but when 3 Github primary sources are readily found, not to mention a bunch of tweets (which are not appropriate for sources), it seems relevant to include some basic facts. Strcat and thestinger are nicknames used by Micay (as if anyone editing, or most people viewing this article don't know). GrapheneOS/Micay has tweeted and posted on github re: not wanting others to use their sources. This information is similar to other factoids included in this article and primary-sourced to GrapheneOS FAQ or other webpages. As previous licensing issues were also germane to CopperheadOS history, and are germane to GrapheneOS history, why not include info' on these statements? It is basic, relevant info' of interest to readers of this article. The statements are not editorializing; they are basic summary of statement by the primary source. -- Yae4 (talk) 22:28, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]