Talk:History of the Jews in Poland: Difference between revisions

The estimates in the source provided claim " less than 10.000. how can this be 10.000-20.000. Those statics are avaible. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country

Change the number of you have access to it. Bageralg (talk) 15:00, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not disputing the claim but I think in the introduction section it should be clarified that tolerance means specifically towards the Jewish community Cpawk (talk) 09:27, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The references needs a bit of work.

• Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs 2014. There is a harv error on it. Is that a book, or is it actually the ministry?
• www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org is NON-RS.
• https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/01/09/pol1-j09.html That is complete junk. NON-RS.
• Geni.com is non-rs.
• Ref 203 doesn't have a page number?
• Ref 34 doesn't have a page number

scope_creepTalk 23:57, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Scope creep I've tagged JVL and Geni. But what's wrong with

<onowiki>It is one of the world's largest Jewish museums.^[1]</nowiki>

The claim doesn't seem controversial and a news site is ok to cite for that. But if you'd prefer to replace WSWS with something else, how about reuters - makes the same claim here "POLIN, which opened its main exhibition in 2014, is one of the largest Jewish museums in the world". _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:24, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus: I not sure why the WSWS site is not considered unreliable, but possibly the source of the external funding they may be getting. Reuters is always more reliable. There seems to be a lot of these Jewish Virtual Library entries on Ref 11, 94, 95, 212 and 213 that need to go. Again I don't know the specific reason, they are being pulled all over the shop. Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs 2014 doesn't have a destination. I tried to fix, it needs refid probably but couldn't find a destination. I removed the Gitelman reference that had a list-reference error. A lot of a references are bare urls that could do with a pass to convert into full size refs. Many of them are on Gbooks and would be very quick to convert. I wonder why they're is so many. scope_creep^Talk 09:14, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for improving the article.

Re: [1] - I think the content is useful and the source looks reliable? The author is an academic, the book is published by an academic publisher. (@Jayen466)

Re: [2]. Agreed. But why mention some relevant content (ex. Piłsudski) in edit summary but not in text? I'd encourage adding a sentence based on the edit summary comment to the article. (@Gitz6666)

Re: [3]. Perhaps this source would help to restore this: [4] {{tq|"...antisemitism of early twentieth-century Poland, were, in a sence,, a by-product of changes and antisemitic propaganda prelevent in Western Europe at the time.") The source seems reliable

Also, it's worth checking some comments above for other issues with this article (and there are many... it's a big topic to cover). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:12, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Re this edit summary [5], I encountered some difficulties in adding Melzer's content to the pertinent section Between antisemitism and support for Zionism and Jewish state in Palestine. Since the very title, the section presents an opposition between antisemitism and support for Zionism and Jewish state. I haven't yet finished reviewing the sources, but with regard to Polish support for Jewish emigration to Palestine, Melzer makes it clear that that policy was a consequence of antisemitism rather than an expression of friendship for the Jewish people. Without removing text and sources that I had not yet reviewed I couldn't include much of Melzer's content, apart from this minor replacement [6].

This edit [7] was a no-brainer, since the removed text was simply not supported by the quoted source. However, we're touching on the possibly delicate issue of whether Polish interwar antisemitism was only the expression of broader European trends or whether there was something peculiar to it. The lead seems to expose the first theory: Antisemitism was a growing problem throughout Europe in those years. However, the source now quoted to support this claim (Hagen 1996) actually argues that there was something peculiar to the "new" German and Polish antisemitism of the 1930s, that is, the economic appetites of the Christian middle classes - according to Hagen, they basically wanted to kill them all and take their stuff, since they were eager to reap the rewards of capitalist modernization at the Jews' expenses. Note that also Ilya Prizel mentions that the decline in Jewish assimilation was contrary to the prevailing European trends of the time [8]. So if we restore the increase in antisemitic activity in prewar Poland was also typical of antisemitism found in other parts of Europe at that time, perhaps we should also qualify that sentence with what Hagen and Prizel say on the issue. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:32, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the essay by Anna Sommer Schneider in Alvin H. Rosenfeld (ed.), Resurgent Antisemitism: Global Perspectives starts with the statement It is not clear whether antisemitism, in all its forms, is a “by-product” of the growth of antisemitic propaganda in Western Europe or a Polish phenomenon ... One of the questions that needs to be asked is whether there is a “unique” type of antisemitism found in Poland (at p. 236; she's also referring to the anomaly of persistent "antisemitism without Jews" in contemporary Poland). The essay is also significant for the following excerpt, which seem to directly challenge our lead:

For decades, the argument has prevailed in the public discourse in Poland that while a number of European countries tried to banish their Jewish citizens, Poland became a kind of asylum for those refugees, due to privileges granted by Polish rulers that secured Jewish rights and safety. The seventeenth century, which witnessed the high point of the development of Jewish cultural and religious life in Poland, was labeled the Paradis Judeorum (Jewish Paradise). It should be recalled, however, that despite the atmosphere of tolerance and the securing of safety, a number of events took place that exerted a stigma and led to the creation of negative stereotypes

Gitz (talk)(contribs) 11:01, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Schneider, I think, gets it correct, by admitting we don't know the answer. In social sciences, such issues are blurry. I think we will end up finding that some scholars say A, and some B. The smartest, IMHO will say A+B or A/B. Hence I expect the best thing we can do is to say something similar to her, maybe even quote her directly.

Btw. All these years and

Antisemitism in Poland is still just a redirect. Sigh. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:14, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

It is another matter to equate assimilation as an indicator of the level of anti-Semitism. In a tolerant society, two communities can exist side by side, the larger does not have to absorb the smaller. Marcelus (talk) 14:16, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree with this good faithed edit [9]. I don't think we anonymous users are in a position to question Prizel and Dunlop's expertise in dealing with primary sources. If Marcelus had a RS questioning either their scientific expertise or the soundness of their conclusions, my position would be different. But I don't agree with the removal of well-sourced content based on the assumption that the sources got it wrong because Marcelus knows better. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:14, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree; it verifies to Prizel & Dunlop; if there are other RSes that say something different, we should tackle that, but not with

WP:OR. Levivich (talk) 17:37, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

• WP:NOTCENSORED principle. -- Pofka (talk) 17:32, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  @Pofka please don’t bring your lengthy disputes with Marcelus from other topic areas into this area. That revert of yours now doesn't look good and might be challenged (as what motivated you into getting engaged here). - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:43, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]