Initiated by Atsme at 01:19, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected

American politics 2 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. You are indefinitely topic banned from Anti fascism in the United States, broadly construed.

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• Atsme (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Awilley (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• Diff of notification for Awilley.

Information about amendment request

• Topic ban from Antifascism US imposed at Talk:Atsme, first on July 22, 2019, amended on July 24, 2019 at Talk:Atsme.
  • Repeal requested

Statement by Atsme

The date of Awilley's first topic ban action is July 22 2019 but he modified it July 24, 2019 to cover US only, perhaps because I called an RfC at the only article that is clearly subject of this t-ban, and where I also received an apology for the behavior that resulted in my stated concerns over how I was being treated. As Awilley has said in the past to other editors who reacted defensively to aggressive editors, we need to grow

• Response to starship.paint - this diff was my response to the apology I received, and I'm hoping that my response to that apology will also serve as a demonstrative answer to your question about recommitting. I have always taken and will continue to take my commitments seriously. Atsme 💬 📧 01:51, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Kevin, I didn't intend to make time-served the primary reason for my appeal. If you are concerned about my behavior in that particular topic area after examining the diffs - can you please be more specific and at least provide a diff or two so I can at least see & understand what has raised your concerns to the point that you're hesitant to remove a t-ban that has been in place for 2-1/2 years? Without specifics, I'm at a loss. I was under the impression that blocks and t-bans are to be used to stop disruption, not punish editors. So please forgive me for not quite understanding what purpose you see this t-ban is serving to stop disruption at this point in time. Atsme 💬 📧 02:34, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Opabinia regalis, I do appreciate your question and multiple choice options, which brought to mind your response to me a short time ago. I'm not one to "blow smoke", so I'll just say, somewhat apologetically, that I have no clue as to how much time I will devote to WP in the coming years. Over the past decade, my volunteer participation in any controversial topic area has been negligible in the grand scheme of things, but sadly, those little black marks I've inadvertently managed to accumulate over the years are indelible, quite depressing and major incentive killers that resulted in my spending less time editing in general. This essay on my UTP serves as a reminder of how much time I want to devote, considering how much our work is appreciated. I will also add that the extent of my activity as a WP volunteer in general is contingent upon ArbCom's actions to implement much needed changes in DS/AE in an effort to remedy the problems that work against collaborative editing, and inadvertently encourage WP:POV creep which tips the scales in favor of whatever systemic bias is prevalent at the time, gives first mover advantage, and discourages NPOV and the consensus building process. Perhaps this AfD will serve a useful purpose as a case study for ArbCom when deliberating over the efficacy of DS/AE. There is always room to improve AE actions, especially when determining whether or not an editor is actually being disruptive or admin prejudice is involved vs productively contributing to the consensus building process. To me, this response demonstrates good judgement in a highly controversial and lengthy discussion. I cast my iVote in that AfD, and was neither repeatedly questioned nor bullied which is what typically happens in controversial topic areas. Atsme 💬 📧 23:34, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• BDD, thank you for bringing that to my attention. I was referring to the template as it existed in July 2019. The template is a muted fuchsia pink with rather large bold letters, and at the time simply stated: "Fascism is a right wing ideology. The consensus of political scientists, historians, and other reliable sources is that Fascism is a right-wing ideology and not a left wing one. This has been discussed numerous times; please see the archives. Please do not request that "right-wing" be changed to "left-wing"; your request will be denied." The current template's bold title catches one's eye and contradicts what both the first sentence and article lead state. That TP will never be stable because of that template, but I've long since learned
  WP:IDGAF. Atsme 💬 📧 03:38, 4 January 2022 (UTC) ^{see underlined text 07:21, 4 January 2022 (UTC)}[reply
  ]
• Black Kite - I will gladly respond to any specific concerns you may have about my behavior if you would be so kind as to point out the violations you believe I'm guilty of committing, and provide supporting diffs. So far, none of the diffs provided against me support the claims of backsliding, whatever "backsliding" means. It is clearly a broad and subjective term which requires specifics for clarity. I beg of you to please, please not use that generality to base your decision because there is no policy or guideline that defines backsliding as an actionable offense. It doesn't even represent a good summary close of my original appeal, which was granted and after all these years should have no bearing on the current t-ban that Awilley himself described as an extremely small and relatively ugly part of the encyclopedia. Bishonen used stale diffs that don't support her claims. One diff points to a comment I made on my UTP to the "regular user" who wrongfully accused me of a BLP vio, obviously in retaliation for this incident. Black Kite, you also participated in that ANI case; Ivanvector closed it with an excellent summary. With all claims considered, how does this diff not demonstrate favoritism for the "regular user" and prejudice against me? This isn't the first time, either. As for the Fox News RfC allegation - the multiple admins who closed that RfC stated: There was a very large amount of what we considered to be bludgeoning from certain participants of this RFC. While there is no formal limit to the maximum number of times one may comment on a given discussion, replying with the same argument(s) to multiple participants holding an opposite viewpoint becomes extremely tedious (bordering on tendentious). None of the participants were charged with a violation. I even contacted Rosguill via private email because I was very concerned, and I absolutely do care so please don't believe the misrepresentations about me. If prejudiced admins had been involved in that Fox RfC, they probably would have seen it as tendentious editing, and the heads of editors with whom they disagreed would have rolled. I was advised that the reference included all editors who made over 10 comments in the discussion, which did include me among several others, which again brings to mind this AfD, and further begs the question about the merits of Bishonen's warning on my UTP in 2020, and her use of those old diffs to poison the well against me now. It makes me very sad. Atsme 💬 📧 07:11, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• With the utmost respect for this forum, the scope of my appeal, and the arbitrators who are taking/have taken the time to consider it, I will not respond to the unfounded allegations and prejudiced opinions that reach beyond the scope of this appeal. Atsme 💬 📧 15:10, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Izno - "total disengagement" was not intentional - it was RL getting in the way, but I appreciate your enthusiasm. Ironically, I get t-banned for claims that I post too much, and reprimanded for not posting enough. Please allow me a bit more time to present my final thoughts. When I'm pressed for time, my posts are too long. Atsme 💬 📧 00:44, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Final thoughts

To satisfy Awilley's requirement, in the future I will try to avoid accusing people of gaslighting. Having said that, I hope we will see the removal of

Statement by Awilley

Sorry, traveling. I've always been willing to lift this ban on the condition that Atsme makes some kind of commitment to remedy the problem that led to this (and the previous) ban. I haven't seen that yet. The last appeal (June 2021) was kind of the opposite. Summarizing: "Commit to what? There is no problem. Others were the problem. You're the problem.") I'd be happy to see this ban lifted if Atsme simply said she'd try harder to follow the 2019 promise referenced below by StarshipPaint. ~Awilley (talk) 02:11, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Adding: for anyone unfamiliar with the history, this started with my closure of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive247#Arbitration_enforcement_action_appeal_by_Atsme this appeal, which rescinded Atsme's topic ban for the whole of American Politics. Based on comments in the admin section, my close included a warning that "backsliding into behaviors that led to the ban will result in further sanctions". Less than 4 months later I saw these edits [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] accusing 4 different editors of, among other things, "gaslighting" and POV pushing. That seemed a clear case of backsliding, but instead of restoring the full AP2 topic ban, I imposed a very narrow ban for Anti-Fascism (ANTIFA).

I'll avoid any further defense of the legitimacy of the ban. I think that was settled in previous appeals. Nov 2019 Nov 2020

@North8000: I'm not insisting on a full re-commitment to the 2019 promises specifically. I just want to see some kind of commitment to do better. I'd settle for something as simple as "In the future I'll try to avoid accusing people of gaslighting." This is how I approach all appeals. ~Awilley (talk) 18:55, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'll settle for that. Let's get rid of the topic ban. ~Awilley (talk) 23:12, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by starship.paint

@

Support withdrawn (am neutral) for now, it seems that the benefit of the doubt given may have been misplaced given the later whatever "backsliding" means overall statement. So, the history, topic banned for [8] filibustering and dominating discussions without bringing them forward (2018), effectively commits not to bludgeon (2019, see above), but did bludgeon in the 2020 Fox News RfC (this is a clear example from the link to the discussion itself even if diffs are not provided), that's backsliding. Atsme - defensiveness over that RfC, or defensiveness over Bishonen's statements, are not helpful. What would be more helpful to your case - 1) acknowledge that the 2020 Fox News RfC bludgeoning was problematic in the context of your 2018 topic ban and your 2019 commitment, and 2) clearly re-commit (like 2019) to not repeating this behaviour (of 2020). starship.paint (exalt) 14:13, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by CaptainEek

Speaking as an editor and not an Arb, since I have a fairly strong personal opinion on the matter and am the main author on Anti-fascism. As a practical point, this sanction is no longer needed. Its been over two years. Anti-fascism in the US is no longer the spicy hot-button issue it was a few years back. Atsme notes that she is not usually involved in these sort of topics. Even at the time she made a well worded appeal. I understand there is some hesitance to remove a ban because the editor wants a clean slate. But I think we should be more aware of the impacts of sanctions. We may have high ideals about turning the other cheek and being magnanimous, but our editors are still just people. Having inapplicable or unjust sanctions applying to them years later decreases editor morale and editor retention. Lift Atsme's ban. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 19:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Bishonen

I won't oppose or support Atsme's article ban appeal. But since at least one arb (Primefac) has shown interest in the larger question of her 2019 new year's promises to do better in the area of American politics, I'll offer a brief history of the fate of these promises, and also point to her apparent unwillingness to explicitly reaffirm them here. These were some very strong and sincere-sounding promises which led to her indefinite AP2 topic ban being lifted in March 2019 and which are partly quoted by Starship.paint above. Atsme's reply to Starship.paint's question about recommitting to the promises seems quite evasive. It consists only of a diff from July 2019 meant as a "demonstrative answer" (?), and the statement that I have always taken and will continue to take my commitments seriously. The diff does not mention those promises or their content. It seems irrelevant to Starship.paint's question, and I'm quite surprised Starship.paint 'understands it as a yes'. I wonder if Primefac and the other arbs understand it so too.

Atsme has not always taken those commitments seriously. By August 2020, she had comprehensively backslid (in my opinion) from them, and when this was pointed out by a regular user,[9] she showed no interest in reaffirming the commitments or even acknowledging them.[10] Indeed, she aggressively blew off the regular user with "I don't need you dancing atop a 2 year action [this refers to her t-ban from American politics] that was questionable from the get-go. Stop dredging up the past" and impugned their motives. The way she absconded from her promises and resented being reminded of them alarmed me, and I posted a warning in my admin role,[11] reminding her that they were what got her topic ban lifted and giving specifics about current problems that I perceived. A striking recent example then was the way she had bludgeoned the Fox News RFC in the summer of 2020, posting some 75 times in it — quite the contrast to the 2019 undertaking "If I happen to be notified of an RfC, I will simply cast my iVote, state why, and move on to other areas". I urged her to re-read her old appeal and start living up to her old promises, or I would consider reinstating the AP2 topic ban. She made no reply. Perhaps the arbs want to consider whether they'd like a clearer reply from Atsme to the question above about reaffirming her promises. Bishonen | tålk 14:58, 3 January 2022 (UTC).[reply]

• I'll just add a link to the mentioned Fox News RfC in 2020, in case people want to see Atsme's input for themselves. Bishonen | tålk 17:42, 3 January 2022 (UTC).[reply]
• Rather than clarifying whether she stands by the promises that got her un-topic-banned from American politics, Atsme is now saying in her response to Black Kite and me (formally only to Black Kite) that "there is no policy or guideline that defines backsliding as an actionable offense". I have a couple of comments on that: ignoring old promises once they have served their purpose is dishonest, not indeed per any 'policies or guidelines', but per
  WP:IAR.) And secondly: in the summary close of Atsme's t-ban appeal, she was specifically warned against backsliding, both on on the WP:AE page[12] and in the AE log.[13] I suppose it's a pity that she didn't then ask 'Whatever does backsliding mean?', as she's doing now. Bishonen | tålk 08:27, 4 January 2022 (UTC).[reply
  ]
• The motion is now passing, but I'll just post a remark all the same, though with very little hope of getting a response from any arb. Two editors — Wbm1058 and Nableezy — have pointed out that the second sentence of the motion means nothing, since per the discretionary sanctions for post-1992 American politics, an uninvolved administrator who feels that a user is not able to edit productively may always impose a topic ban, at their own discretion. And MastCell has also objected that the second sentence is meaningless and redundant. No arb has responded; they support the motion without seemingly caring that half of it is meaningless. Or, do they support it because they see an esoteric meaning in the second sentence, which the three experienced users I mentioned cannot divine, and they, the arbs, don't care to explain? Those seem to be the alternatives. Bishonen | tålk 22:00, 8 January 2022 (UTC).[reply]

Statement by Springee

I don't think my opinion will matter much but I would support the appeal. This isn't an appeal to lift a general politics tban, but a narrow sub-set tban. Atsme has shown that they aren't a problem in the broader topic space which should be all the evidence we need to say that this ban is no longer needed to protect Wikipedia. Politics, especially in the last year has been particularly divisive yet we don't have clear evidence of any backsliding. I know Bishonen noted the concerns of another editor. It's worth noting the editor was involved in the topic area and several topics with Atsme herself vs an uninvolved editor trying to raise a helpful concern. We are over a year later and two and a half years after the general AP ban was lifted. It seems like it's increasingly difficult to view this tban as needed to protect Wikipedia. Springee (talk) 18:45, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Soibangla, is the issue that Atsme has actually violated some rules you can point to or is it because she is often on the other side of debates over content you try to add to articles? A number of editors agreed that you should have been narrow topic banned here [14] due to concerns regarding BLP violations. One editor proposed a complete AP tban [15]. You have accused me of provocation on several occasions because I updated your DS Alerts. It seems you respond the same way when an admin adds it [16]. I updated it because in the past you have violated the NPA rules[17][18]. Your talk page shows an number of editors concerned about bad reverts[19], edit warring [20][21], and other less than ideal editor behaviors [22][23][24][25]. Accusations from editors aren't the same thing as proof and often the devil is in the details. Still, quite a few editors have had issues with the way you have handled edits or editor interactions with them. Why should it be assumed that Atsme's issues were the result of unreasonableness on her part? Springee (talk) 16:09, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment for those who are opposing the removal, what harm are we protecting here? The purpose of tbans etc is specifically to protect Wikipedia. What harm is likely to come if this is removed? I think that Bishonen's comments have given editors real concern but should they? I see two basic concerns, the first being replies to Soibangla, the second being replies to the Fox RfC. Above I mentioned the concerns other editors have expressed with the way Soibangla has interacted with others. Atsme's replies to what look like battleground comments directed at Atsme look blunt but restrained. The Fox RfC did have a lot of comments but it was a VERY long RfC [26]. This RfC had 63 citations, ~650 signed edits and was active for a month and a half (7 June to 21 July). I counted 67 signed comments by Atsme in that RfC. Quite a few editors were well into the double digits. Many of Atsme's edits were back and forth discussions rather than an editor individually challenging every editor who opposed Atsme's POV which is typically where we raise the bludgeoning concern. They weren't a bunch of uncivil comments, most seem quite congenial even in disagreement. Yes, 67 is a lot but when looking at the total size and But when we look at the total length and breadth of the discussion this isn't the bludgeoning the raw number makes it appear to be. So after 2.5 years of very contentious politics this is all the evidence we have to refuse to lift a narrow topic band? Again, are we actually protecting Wikipedia? If people really are that concerned I think WTT's probationary period is a good compromise. Springee (talk) 15:33, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Black Kite

I came here to support this, but now I'd like to see an answer to Bishonen's statement. Black Kite (talk) 23:41, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Soibangla

I was highly reluctant to participate in this discussion, but Atsme's assertion that I wrongfully accused me of a BLP vio, obviously in retaliation for this incident is flatly false and is indicative of an unrelenting vendetta that Atsme is attempting to project upon me. I find Atsme incorrigible and if it were up to me Atsme would have been permanently banned from AP2 years ago. I cannot fathom why Atsme has been given so many passes for persistently bad behavior. And I fully anticipate that I will be targeted for retribution for coming right out and saying it. Bring it. soibangla (talk) 15:21, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Doug Weller

I'd like to hear Atsme's response to Awilley's request. Unlike starship.paint, I don't take her response as a yes, and I'd prefer something more clearcut. Doug Weller talk 08:06, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by RegentsPark

I don't follow AP so consider this a kibitzer opinion. A request to remove a ban should be crisp and clear. It should recognize why the ban was imposed and clearly state what the editor will do to ensure that the particular behavior is not repeated. I don't see that here. starship.paint's question, for example, required a pro-forma "yes, yes, yes,..." response but, instead, we get a two year old diff that is a non-answer (especially in the light of later diffs from Bishonen). The Opabinia regalis question also required a straightforward answer (this, this, this, or some combination of the three) but, instead, we get a long meandering response with a pointer to an essay (with a, less than encouraging, reference to "admin cabals") and an AfD, neither of which actually answer the questions. Frankly, the topic ban itself seems so limited that it hardly seems to matter whether it stays or goes but, procedurally, it would be nice to see clear statements from the requester and I'm puzzled as to why Atsme seems to not want to be direct in their responses. --RegentsPark (comment) 13:42, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by North8000

Support. 2 1/2 years is enough. Regarding the possible commitment in question, it is a very long post with at least a half dozen interpret-able conditions and a minefield for anybody to commit to. About the only way to fulfill the multiple possible interpretations of those half dozen commitments would be near-zero participation. A better merge would be saying zero drama in that area (with near-zero participation being the only way to safe way to fulfill all interpretations of that)for 6 months. After that they would just have the same scrutiny that all editors have. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Awilley: Cool and sounds very reasonable. I was just pointing out the issues of going by that particular post and why one would be hesitant to commit to it. North8000 (talk) 19:06, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest clarification. After 12 months and if all goes well, is it all over, or go back to a full ban or require another discussion/decision here? North8000 (talk) 22:23, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MastCell

Atsme previously appealed this topic ban unsuccessfully at

As others have pointed out, Atsme's AP2 topic ban was lifted in response to vague commitments to do better, commitments which were promptly ignored and exposed as toothless. It was foolish and irresponsible to have lifted that topic ban in the absence of any insight or reason to think the underlying behavior would change. But doing the same thing again—as you seem to be considering here—would be outright administrative malpractice. MastCell ^Talk 18:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with wbm1058 that a "provisional" clause would be meaningless and redundant. If you really think this appeal provides a reasonable assurance that the previous issues won't recur, then grant it. Otherwise don't. Don't punt this to some hypothetical uninvolved admin to re-instate the ban—and especially don't pretend that re-imposing the ban is cost-free. As I emphasized above, you're just shifting the cost.

If you trust someone not to backslide into problematic behavior when they won't even acknowledge the meaning of the word "backsliding", then at least have the courage of your convictions and just make a decision. MastCell ^Talk 16:53, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Wbm1058

The amendment is requested to You are indefinitely topic banned from Anti fascism in the United States, broadly construed. I fail to see, how under even the broadest of construals, the RfC about the reliability of Fox News has anything to do with Antifa in the US.

I don't follow the concept of put a "provisional" clause on the removal, that an uninvolved administrator can return it and if none have after 12 months it is completely removed. Aren't uninvolved administrators always authorized to place discretionary sanctions where allowed – for new instances of sanctionable behavior, even if the sanction is identical to a previously expired or repealed sanction that was imposed for an old instance of sanctionable behavior? – without needing any enabling "clause" – and would removal of the "clause" after 12 months then have the effect of prohibiting the imposition of sanctions for new instances of sanctionable behavior? wbm1058 (talk) 16:31, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The primary meaning of backsliding, according to Wikipedia, is a term used within Christianity to describe a process by which an individual who has converted to Christianity reverts to pre-conversion habits and/or lapses or falls into sin... the backslidden individual is in danger of eventually going to Hell if he does not repent. I don't care for the use of this term with its negative religious connotations in conversations about behavior on Wikipedia. Ideally, I'd like to see both terms "backsliding" and "gaslighting" removed from the vocabulary of behavioral discussions on Wikipedia. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:34, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MONGO

I would recommend Atsme provide a direct and concise response to the arbs and Awilley and then just avoid AP articles and issues altogether. No one can fix those places, especially in this political climate. So it better to find places in the pedia that allow one to have some fun and avoid some folks with serious mental and emotional issues.--MONGO (talk) 16:14, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nableezy

Is there anything actually added by the provisional nature of the motion below? Cant any uninvolved admin already re-impose a topic ban as a DS if they feel it required, AP2 still being a topic area covered by DS? Just seems like a distinction without a difference in lifting the ban and the way it is worded below. nableezy - 18:18, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Valereee

Possibly moot, but IMO reasonable editors who are on the more-conservative side than the average editor ought to be valued for what they can offer, even if considering their pov sometimes feels frustrating, because considering their pov is necessary for arriving at NPOV. When only one or two people are arguing for something, it can look like disruption and feel like it to those who are in the majority politically. That doesn't mean we should treat it as disruptive. It might just mean we need to pry open our own minds and that we should think about that possibility.

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

American politics 2: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• ☖ 05:51, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Recuse CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 19:36, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• I would like to hear the answer to starship.paint's query, but at the moment I am leaning towards accepting the appeal. Primefac (talk) 20:22, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• @Atsme: Hi - are you appealing on the merits or because the sanction is no longer necessary? Parts of your appeal suggest the former and others suggest the latter. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 02:03, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  For the information of my colleagues, I am not currently inclined to grant the appeal. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:44, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Is this a case of "I'm not interested in returning to the topic but it just bothers me to have a blot on my record"? Or is it because you are interested in editing about antifascism in the US, or expanding your editing about American politics in general? Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:34, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am really good at being inactive, so I'm not going to hold a few days against anyone. Since Atsme asked for time, I'll wait to vote till she's had time to follow up. If it helps focus your thoughts, I think it would be helpful to respond to some of the concerns expressed above about your previous commitments, and particularly Awilley's last post. Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:29, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• User:Atsme, the language in Talk:Fascism and the article lede look to be in sync to me. Are you referring to an issue that was since fixed? --BDD (talk) 03:00, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  User:Atsme, you'll see I supported below, but I encourage you to indeed make IDGAF your friend, and refer to it often when editing related to American politics. We may not have a formal definition of backsliding, but please take the criticism here to heart: if you say you're not going to do something, don't do it. Simple stuff, really. --BDD (talk) 17:20, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  dictionary defintion of a term usually isn't encyclopedic. Their definition, as I noted to Atsme above, may not exactly correspond to a proscribed activity here, but presumably we never want to see editors regressing "to a previous, worse state". While this may be a side note, I wouldn't want a takeaway of this ARCA to be "ArbCom says there's no such thing as backsliding." --BDD (talk) 17:20, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply

  ]

• I'm also amenable to this request at the moment. If people are concerned about Atsme's promises, we could put a "provisional" clause on the removal, that an uninvolved administrator can return it and if none have after 12 months it is completely removed. Worm^TT(talk) 16:38, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• WP:CIVIL, Minority Report (film)
  ...)

WTT's proposal sounds like a reasonable way forward. Cabayi (talk) 10:43, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• At this point in time I would also support WTT's idea. — Wug·a·po·des​ 06:18, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• I am not inspired by the total disengagement on Atsme's part on the 4th. --Izno (talk) 00:33, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Motion: American politics 2

For this motion there are 14 active arbitrators, not counting 1 recused. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 8 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Enacted - –

1. Primefac (talk) 18:11, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
2. — Wug·a·po·des​ 21:41, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
3. I think this strikes the right balance.
   talk) 07:13, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply
   ]
4. Worm^TT(talk) 13:45, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
5. Maxim_(talk) 15:54, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
6. Donald Albury 16:41, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
7. BDD (talk) 17:16, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
8. Weakly. --Izno (talk) 23:25, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
9. I can't oppose when the admin who imposed the original sanction supports its removal. But I think this is still not quite on the mark. There are some real concerns expressed here about the way you've approached your previous commitments in the area and your style of interaction on political topics, quite different from the friendly and affable Atsme we all know. I think sticking to IDGAF and just avoiding the topic altogether is exactly the right approach! Opabinia regalis (talk) 09:42, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
10. Cabayi (talk) 16:33, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Abstain

1. I cannot support this but I won't stand in the way. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 17:41, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
2. I am of the opinion that all editors have an obligation to edit from a neutral point of view, and that those who make their opinions on a topic well-known should be extremely cautious about editing in that area. I recognize that mine is a minority opinion, particularly within the U.S. Politics topic area, and as such I will not actively oppose this motion, but I do hope that Atsme and others consider this perspective. – bradv^🍁 00:12, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
3. I can't support this as well. Enterprisey (talk!) 03:41, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from arbitrators

@Bishonen: Psychological value mostly. Like a New Year's resolution. And something to point to for extra support if there is a problem and an admin does need to restore the ban. Opabinia regalis (talk) 22:51, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Initiated by BilledMammal at 04:06, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected

Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#Extended confirmed restriction

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• Diff of notification for ProcrastinatingReader, though as they are only quoted this may not have been required

Statement by BilledMammal

I ask that ArbCom clarify whether ECR applies to discussions on RSN regarding sources that are related to the topic area, broadly construed. If it does, I ask ArbCom to also clarify related to the topic area, broadly construed in this context, and whether non-ECP editors are allowed to comment regarding the reliability of the source for uses outside of topics covered by ECR.

This clarification request was prompted by two discussions at RSN, Jewish Chronicle and CounterPunch. Both had considerable involvement from socks and non-ECP editors, and during a close review of the former where the question of ECR was raised the closer stated I don't think I discounted comments by non-ECP editors, one because I don't usually check the ECP status of participants unless struck/marked, but also because I'm not sure this RfC is covered by the ARBPIA prohibition.

Apologies Beeblebrox; I wasn't clear in my request. I am requesting clarification about when the restriction applies to discussions at RSN, not how it is applied. Specifically, discussions about the general reliability of a source, typically RFC's for listing at RSP, rather than narrower discussions about the use of a source in a specific article. BilledMammal (talk) 04:44, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To try and clarify further, I would broadly define this request as "Can discussions regarding project-wide topics, such as those to determine the reliability of a source for inclusion at RSP, be sufficiently related to the topic area, broadly construed for ECR to apply?" If the response to this is "yes", the follow up clarification requests to this would be "How is "sufficiently" determined?" and, given the need to not disenfranchise users from participating in discussions, "How do we handle the participation of non-ECP editors in such discussions?". BilledMammal (talk) 05:26, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Opabinia regalis I don't believe there is anything unusual about those two RFC's that would result in broader than usual input. I also believe you are right about a large number of non-ECP editors being unusual; I took a look at a recent RFC with decent participation, RfC: The Daily Wire, and was unable to identify any !votes from non-ECP editors, though it is possible that I overlooked them. I also took a look at a recent RFC with !votes from multiple socks, RfC: The Canary, and found that of the unbanned !voters, four were non-ECP at the time of the RFC. BilledMammal (talk) 07:41, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Beeblebrox and BDD; based your comments about how it currently functions, I believe there will be a number of RFC's at RSN that will need to be reclosed, including but not limited to The Canary and CounterPunch. However, while I understand the difficulty in providing a precise definition, I would ask that you comment on two ambiguous examples so that we have a baseline to refer to. Specifically, would ECR apply to an RFC on CNN (used somewhat frequently in ECR topics, but discussions about its reliability do not tend to involve ECR topics) and an RFC on Al Jazeera (used somewhat frequently in ECR topics, and discussions about its reliability do tend to involve ECR topics). I would assume that it doesn't apply to the former and that it does apply to the latter, but I would appreciate formal clarification on this, particularly if I am incorrect.

Finally, I would note without raising a question that this would appear to mean that ECR also applies to RM's that have an impact both inside and outside ECR areas, such as this one (ECR not applied at the time, two blocked socks, one unblocked IP). BilledMammal (talk) 05:00, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Selfstudier

As regards Arbpia related matters, I am almost sure that the intention has been to disallow unqualified editors from participating in formal discussions, see this ARCA, the usual procedure being to strike any comments made. Selfstudier (talk) 12:56, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bobfrombrockley: The case is not about those three RFCs specifically but the more general question of whether participation is permitted at noticeboards if the matter under discussion is related to matters where ecp applies (not just Arbpia). As several have said, "broadly construed" would be a case by case issue decided at the time of/before/after a discussion so I don't think there is any retrospective declaration here.Selfstudier (talk) 12:12, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

Part 5B(1) of the ARBPIA General Sanctions says

Editors who are not eligible to be extended-confirmed may use the Talk: namespace to post constructive comments and make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive. Talk pages where disruption occurs may be managed by any of the methods noted in paragraph b). This exception does not apply to other internal project discussions such as AfDs, WikiProjects, RfCs, noticeboard discussions, etc. (my emphasis)

Since RSN is a noticeboard, non-ec editors are not allowed to engage in ARBPIA-related discussion there. Zero^talk 13:09, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, OR, the number of socks and non-ec editors taking part in those discussions was exceptional even by ARBPIA standards. It is reasonable to ask why but I have no evidence to offer. Zero^talk 13:12, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Beeblebrox, you write that e-c restrictions are "not to disenfranchise users from participating in discussions", but the part of the ARBPIA General Sanctions that I put in bold are intended to keep non-ec editors out of formal discussions. They are necessary because otherwise RfCs, RMs, etc, are overrun by IPs and SPAs. It can't be controlled by anti-disruption methods, because it isn't obviously disruptive. (Imagine if 10 IPs show up and all !vote the same way. Can an uninvolved admin decide to remove them all? On what grounds?) They can still participate in informal talk-page discussion. These rules are a blessing for the smooth running of the ARBPIA area and I really really hope you don't consider changing them. Zero^talk 13:34, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Shrike

• The only question in my opinion does Counterpunch RFC is ARBPIA discussion. I personally not 100% sure many outlets print about I/P conflict it doesn't meant that the general reliability discussion about them is I/P related Shrike (talk) 14:52, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ProcrastinatingReader (ECR)

I was notified but I'm not sure exactly what the question is here. If the issue is my statement during review of the Jewish Chronicle RfC (I don't think I discounted comments by non-ECP editors, one because I don't usually check the ECP status of participants unless struck/marked, but also because I'm not sure this RfC is covered by the ARBPIA prohibition.), my issue was not whether ECR can apply to RSN discussions in the abstract (I understand that it can), the issue is whether it applies to the RfC in question. Rarely do RfCs say "is X source reliable for articles in Y topic area". The Jewish Chronicle one was marked asking with regards to Left-wing organisations and individuals and Muslims and Islam, although the consensus I found was for the British left, Muslims, Islam and Palestine/Palestinians. Some editors commented on the reliability more generally, and not just limited to these areas. So are non-EC editors prohibited from commenting here? If so, who makes that call? I don't know if it's appropriate for a non-admin closer to unilaterally decide whether an administrative ruling applies in order to disenfranchise certain editors in these circumstances. I will note that there was severe sockpuppet disruption in that RfC (6 sockpuppets), but all were above EC. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:23, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by OID

To respond to Kevin's comment specifically. The issue (in light of the Daily Mail RFC) is that many of the 'Is X source reliable' discussions now do not follow the instructions at the top of RSN - that a source has to be evaluated in context as to the article its being used on and what information is being referenced. The Daily Mail RFC was clear cut in that when you do this with the modern mail, it almost always fails the reliability tests, and when it doesnt overtly do so, you cant trust it anyway due to its documented history of making things up. The intent was to shorten the time spent *constantly* having to review a source that you knew was 9 times out of 10 be crap because someone had used it and been reverted. And when it wasnt, you had a host of better sources available anyway.

Functionally now what happens is you have broad general reliability discussions about sources, which dont look at the individual uses, but in actuality are specifically being used in a narrow topic area (most commonly right-wing/conservative sources for American Politics or Israel/Palestine) to push a certain viewpoint. The goal of the discussion is to blanket allow/disallow a source based on ideological point of view rather than an objective "is this source reliable for the information to be included in the article". Why this is problematic from an RSN point of view, is that ECP-prohibited editors from the IP area can easily skew a discussion on sourcing when it is a general review rather than a close look at what the sources are being used for, because you can argue the broad review of a newspaper isnt covered by broadly construed, but you cant do so when the topic is specifically about IP. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:40, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by BobFromBrockley

I participated in the CounterPunch, Canary and Jewish Chronicle RfCs. If I understand the discussion here correctly, the argument is that because these discussions fall within the ARBPIA area, only extended confirmed editors should participate. My strong view is that these three RfCs extended far beyond the ARBPIA area. In relation to CounterPunch, the discussion was sparked by the use of a CounterPunch article (which was written by a non-expert and included several factual errors) as a source for facts about international law in the article Alex Saab, which has absolutely nothing to do with Palestine/Israel. While some of the currently contentious uses of it broadly relate to Palestine/Israel (e.g. Sara Roy, Alan Dershowitz) most of its uses on Wikipedia are totally unrelated, and the examples used to argue for unreliability/deprecation in the RfC related to vaccinations, 9/11, Xinjiang, the Holodomor, Holocaust denial, etc. Similarly, in The Canary discussion (there were actually several discussions in a row, all with overwhelming consensus against reliability), examples of unreliable reporting raised related to the NHS, Syria, RussiaGate, harassment of journalists in Nicaragua and many other issues. The Jewish Chronicle discussion was framed as "Left-wing organisations and individuals and Muslims and Islam", none of which are Israel/Palestine. The examples of unreliability raised related to the British Labour Party and not to the Middle East. In conclusion, I see no reason to retrospectively declare these discussions under the ARBPIA category. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:55, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nableezy

Beyond the problem with explaining how brand new accounts or ones that mysteriously only show up to vote on occasion find a discussion on RSN, the fact that it is I/P users heavily socking in these discussions should inform one as to why these should be covered. In the discussions Bob brings up, Icewhiz (5 IW socks in CP, 4 in the JC discussion) and NoCal100 (1 sock each) socks formed a huge chunk of the votes in favor of deprecation for CP ( or maintaining reliability for the Jewish Chronicle. Why might that be? Beyond the obvious seeking to impact a restricted topic area. And in these discussions, where a handful of users can have a huge impact, see for example the 15 users in good standing, including the non-EC users who should be discounted, being used to expunge a source across the encyclopedia, we need to have some level of protection against disruption. nableezy - 17:58, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Extended confirmed restriction: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Extended confirmed restriction: Arbitrator views and discussion

• I think point C of the motion addresses this: "C. On any page where the restriction is not enforced through extended confirmed protection, this restriction may be enforced by other methods, including page protection, reverts, blocks, the use of pending changes, and appropriate edit filters." It isn't possible to protect one section of a page, and applying ECP to a busy noticeboard is not desirable. but admins are free to use other means to curb disruption as needed. More broadly, ECP is generally intended to stop disruption in articles, not to disenfranchise users from participating in discussions. That's what all those other options are for, disruption to discussions can and should be dealt with on a more case-by-case basis.
  talk) 04:18, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • I've taken another look here, I am not at all sure why I did not participate in the discussion of that motion or vote on it, but it does appear to say that non-EC users can be excluded from such discussions. I do not agree with that and would've voted against it had I been aware it did this, but I missed it and that is, as of right now, the rule in areas where the committee has imposed ECP.
    talk) 03:50, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
• I know this doesn't quite answer the question, but commenting at RSN and making judgments about the Wikipedia-idiosyncratic definition of "reliability" are pretty insidery things to be doing. The occasional legit non-ECP editor could certainly end up there and give useful input, but a lot of non-ECP people in the same discussion at the same time seems unusual. Am I wrong about that? Other than the topic, is there anything about those two discussions that would have attracted broader than usual input? Since this hasn't come up before AFAIK, I'm not sure if this is a general issue, or if these two threads are outliers in some way. Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:33, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks to everyone who responded to my question - good to know this isn't the usual state of things. I think the first part of the question has been adequately covered; as for the second, I don't know that we can provide much general insight beyond what WTT and Kevin say below. Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:34, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes to the basic question (as in this diff). I don't think we can answer the follow-up question, any more than we can precisely say what "broadly construed" means. I agree with Zero0000 that the quoted sanction does serve to disenfranchise non-EC editors, and that is indeed the point. Not a very nice way of putting it, I suppose, but it's true. --BDD (talk) 03:07, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:RSP mentions potential Arab–Israeli conflict bias, with no such caveat for CNN. Context will matter, though. --BDD (talk) 20:01, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
• Responding to "Can discussions regarding project-wide topics, such as those to determine the reliability of a source for inclusion at RSP, be sufficiently related to the topic area, broadly construed for ECR to apply?", yes - As OR states, this is an "insider" area, where you would expect people to be EC before finding it and being able to participate helpfully. I cannot prescriptively give a definition of "broadly construed" beyond "if it is related broadly in the opinion of a reasonable uninvolved individual". Worm^TT(talk) 16:48, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• I agree with OR and WTT both in terms of how we are attempting to mitigate disruption (which most definitely continues) and how to interpret broadly construed. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:31, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• The first question is easy to answer: If an RSN discussion is "related, broadly construed", to the topic area, then the ECR applies. The harder question is what counts as "related, broadly construed". It is of course a case-by-case decision, but I would suggest the following general rule: an RSN discussion is "related, broadly construed", if the RSN discussion itself substantially discusses to the ECR topic, or if the source typically reports information within the topic area. But a source that covers many things including some things that are related to an ECR topic is not covered (unless the RSN discussion substantially relates to the ECR topic). Again, this should be determined case-by-case. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:41, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Concur with OR, WTT, & L235. I figure the sensible interpretation is straightforwardly implied by the existing wording, so in my opinion it wouldn't need to be changed. Enterprisey (talk!) 08:37, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]