Talk:Abe Martin (Texas coach)

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) A1Cafel (talk) 02:44, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Abe Martin (American football) → Othol Hershel "Abe" Martin
• Glenn Martin (coach) → Morris Glenn "Abe" Martin

• Avoid the nickname in quotes in the middle per
  WP:NICKNAME ("Avoid adding a nickname ... in quotes ... between first and last name (for example: Bill Clinton, not William "Bill" Clinton), unless it is the form most frequently used in independent reliable sources (see § Middle names and initials)."). The nickname does not help disambiguate these two article titles from each other anyway, since the two people have the same nickname. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:57, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

The example, "Bill Clinton, not William "Bill" Clinton", is not applicable to

WP:COMMONNAME for both of them would have been Bill Clinton in the same manner as the common name for both American football coaches was Abe Martin. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 14:38, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

But including "Abe" here is accomplishing nothing. The common name is "Abe Martin", but the proposal is not to name the articles "Abe Martin". If the article name won't be "Abe Martin (something)", then it doesn't need the "Abe" at all, because the idea is to disambiguate the two article titles, and adding "Abe" does not accomplish that purpose – both of them are Abes. The "form most frequently used in independent reliable sources" is not "Othol Hershel 'Abe' Martin" and "Morris Glenn 'Abe' Martin", so there is no reason to put "Abe" in the titles. (Both articles, by the way, seem to have very little in terms of citations to independent reliable sources.) —BarrelProof (talk) 19:07, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The main title header for one

Othol H. "Abe" Martin, while the header for the other Find a Grave entry is Glenn “Abe” Martin, with the gravestone indicating the same form as the header, Glenn “Abe” Martin. The nomination also submits other possibilities, including "(American football, born 19XX)", for these two articles' main headers, with the outcome dependent, of course, upon consensus. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:24, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

• I'd support the moves to
  Glenn "Abe" Martin. I agree that BarrelProof's example, "Bill Clinton, not William "Bill" Clinton", is not applicable. -- Just N. (talk) 18:46, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • I did not specifically cite that example, so please don't call it my example. What I cited was the general rule, not that specific example. Bill Clinton is just one example of a case where the general rule applies, and I did not choose that example. The general rule that I quoted still applies even if that example is not an exactly analogous situation. I just quoted the guideline, and that example just happened to be part of what it said. Maybe I should have removed that example from what I quoted. If "Abe" is essential to recognizability of these titles, then the proposed names should be something akin to "
    Abe Martin (American football, born 1906)", not something with the nickname in quotation marks in the middle of something else. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:18, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply
    ]
• Oppose. This is just not how we construct article titles. Using the year of birth would be acceptable. So
  Abe Martin (American football, born 1908). -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:25, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• I agree with that alternative (which was also suggested among the choices in the original proposal by Roman Spinner). We should do something, because there is a clear need for disambiguation. —BarrelProof (talk) 23:02, 9 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per Necrothesp.
  Lepricavark (talk) 12:34, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Oppose as proposed. Common names should prevail here. Alternative proposal by Necrothesp/BarrelProof sounds reasonable. @Cbl62: thoughts on this one? Jweiss11 (talk) 04:19, 10 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose all moves. This is a solution in search of a problem. Glenn Martin is commonly known as Glenn Martin, albeit that he was sometimes known as Abe. This Abe Martin is overwhelmingly the primary topic for the name within the American football arena, so it would not be productive to move to some more complicated title. A hatnote will take the one or two readers who land in the wrong place.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:14, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding

Glenn "Abe" Martin at ABCA Hall of Fame. Here is Martin, Glenn Abe

at JOHPER: Journal of Health, Physical Education, Recreation, Volume 18.

Also, here, as previously indicated, is his gravesite, with the gravestone engraved "MARTIN GLENN "ABE"". In fact, nowhere is he indicated as simply "Glenn Martin". The field at Southern Illinois University is Abe Martin Field, not "Glenn Martin Field".

By contrast, here is Abe Martin Stadium in Lufkin, Texas named for

Othol Hershel “Abe” Martin (1908–1979) and here

, as also previously indicated, is his gravesite with the gravestone engraved "MARTIN OTHOL H. "ABE"".

Hatnotes would be unnecessary per

Abe Martin (American football, born 1908), already knows the search object and needs no help from hatnotes. All others who would type Abe Martin (American football), Abe Martin (football) or simply Abe Martin would sort it out at the Abe Martin dab page. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:19, 19 September 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

talk page or in a move review

. No further edits should be made to this section.

no consensus to move, after extended time for discussion. BD2412 T 02:33, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Abe Martin (American football) → Abe Martin (American football, born 1908)
• Glenn Martin (coach) → Abe Martin (American football, born 1906)

• Oppose. Glenn Martin was a baseball coach for longer than he was a football player and coach combined. The field at SIU is a baseball field. He also coached basketball for a few years. No objection to moving him to Abe Martin (coach). - Station1 (talk) 01:32, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Both men were coaches for a much longer period than they were players —

Abe Martin (coach, born 1908), I would support those forms as well as other forms, such as Abe Martin (American football coach) and Abe Martin (baseball coach). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:34, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

Since the first was apparently associated only with football (whether as player or coach), and the second with multiple sports, I think the use of plain "American football" (without specifying a role) and plain "coach" (without specifying a sport) are probably the best qualifers. Birth years are recommended only as a last resort at

WP:NCPDAB, since they are usually the least recognizable way to distinguish two people, especially when they're so close in age. No matter what these articles are titled, they will still require hatnotes. Station1 (talk) 07:48, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

Since each man spent decades as a coach, the form Abe Martin (coach) applies equally to both men as do the forms Abe Martin (American football) and Abe Martin (American football coach), with all three forms thus having to be considered as incomplete disambiguations, which is the reason for striking-over my alternative proposal of Abe Martin (American football coach), above.

I also struck-over my other alternative proposal, Abe Martin (baseball coach), because even though he was a baseball coach longer than he was a basketball coach or a football coach, he was not solely a baseball coach. Thus the last resort of using birth years would seem to be appropriate in the case of these two coaches.

Hatnotes would be unnecessary per

Abe Martin (American football, born 1908)

, already knows the search object to an exact degree and needs no help from hatnotes.

Those who would type incomplete disambiguations Abe Martin (American football), Abe Martin (football), Abe Martin (coach) or those who would simply type Abe Martin [nearly everyone, most likely] would arrive at the Abe Martin dab page where any uncertainty would be resolved. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:48, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per Station1. I think the current disambiguators are OK in this scenario, and adding birth years isn't really going to help users in a practical way. Let the hatnotes do the talking.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:57, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

requested move

. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.