Talk:Abram Kofman

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Vaticidalprophet talk 02:46, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Created by Frzzl (talk). Self-nominated at 11:48, 3 November 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Abram Kofman; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

  • The article appears to meet DYK guidelines for newness and length and a QPQ has been provided. The hook is cited inline; it's in Esperanto but a Google Translate translation seems to confirm the information. However, the hook as currently written is ambiguous: the intended meaning is that Ramstedt did not understand Japanese, but the current wording is ambiguous as to if "couldn't speak the language" refers to Japanese or Esperanto. In addition, I wonder if an alternative hook about him translating the Iliad to Esperanto could work as an alternate hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:10, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the comments! Alts:
    • alt0a: "... that for his planned anthology Voĉoj de Popoloj, Esperanto poet Abram Kofman asked Finnish scholar Gustaf John Ramstedt to translate into Japanese, a language Ramstedt couldn't speak?" with source as above.
    • alt1: "... that Abram Kofman was the first Ancient Greek-Esperanto translator, publishing translated parts of Iliad in 1895?" Source:[2]
  • I can't quite rephrase alt0 to be unambiguous without it getting really clunky, so I think your idea for an Iliad hook is best.  
    contribs  23:49, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Fair enough, I think we can go with ALT1; AGF on the source. Normally I'd be wary of "first" hooks, but given the timeframe and how niche Esperanto was even back then, I'd assume good faith that the claim is accurate. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:25, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Nia trezoro: Gustav John Ramstedt". La Ondo de Esperanto (in Esperanto). 2014-12-19. Retrieved 2023-11-02. Por sia planata kolekto Voĉoj de popoloj A. Kofman mendis de li tradukojn el pluraj lingvoj, i. a. la japana, kiun Ramstedt tiam ne sciis, kvankam Kofman ial kredis tion. [For his planned collection Voĉoj de popolo A. Kofman ordered translations from him for multiple languages, i.e. Japanese, which Ramstedt did not know, although Kofman somehow believed he did.
  2. ISBN 978-1-59569-090-6
    .

GA Review

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Nominator: Frzzl (talk · contribs)

Reviewer: Kusma (talk · contribs) 17:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Reserving. Will try to review over the weekend. —Kusma (talk) 17:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Content and prose review

  • Is it Kofman or Koffman (as Baghy says)?
  • Auld has "Abraham Kofman" born in 1864
  • "Kofman was born in Odesa, Russian Empire, in 1865,[1] working professionally as a bookkeeper.[2]" citations seem mixed up: 1865 is in Sutton, "Odessa" in Baghy (although "librotenisto en Odessa" doesn't seem to say he was born there?
  • learned [..] Esperanto in 1889. Would be really good to give context (Zamenhof created Esperanto in 1887). Where is the "1889" from? Source just says "pioniro de Esperanto".
  • "51 Jewish Esperantists in Odesa by 1902" source says there were three Jews among the 51 Esperantists in Odessa
  • "First Period of Esperanto literature ... was the first main school of Esperanto literature and existed from 1916 to 1920" really? what is "la unua periodo (1892-1906)" referred to by Baghy? Later we have them working on "Zamenhof's 1903 anthology". Something isn't quite right here.
  • I am pretty sure Nikolaos Trunte and Nicolina Trunte are the same person [1]. You could compromise on "N. Trunte".
  • "Fundamenta Krestomatio" translate title? chrestomathy is a fairly uncommon word.
  • I like the word "esprimkapableco" :) I don't really understand Esperanto though.
  • "He additionally collaborated with Bohema Esperantisto" who is Bohema Esperantisto?
  • I don't think the long list of languages for Voĉoj de Popoloj is particularly helpful.
  • "Kofman also translated the Old Testament into Ido" was this before 1902 as the structure of the article makes it look?
  • Do not link to Zamenhof's letter inline, this is better in a footnote.
  • "circulate[19] – he received" just start a new sentence instead of connecting with a dash.
  • Post-Esperanto: "Although in 1894, Kofman was one of 157 Esperantists who voted against a reform of Esperanto,[21] in 1907, he changed languages from Esperanto to the Ido; this had been introduced by a proposition from the Delegation for the Adoption of an International Auxiliary Language, and around a tenth of Esperantists would switch alongside him." ok, I don't get this. why "although"? what reform? what does changing from Esperanto to "the Ido" have to do with reforming Esperanto?
  • "He would later change to Edgar de Wahl's Occidental" just to clarify, what does "change" mean here? I am sure he still was fluent in Esperanto, just Occidental (please mention that this is nowadays called Interlingue) became his conlang of choice? (Most people I know who speak Esperanto also speak at least a handful of other languages...)
  • "Author of a later-destroyed manuscript of a Russian-Occidental dictionary,[4] he also translated poetry into Occidental – a translation of a poem by Ivan Krylov by Kofman appeared in an edition of the magazine International magazine of stenography (Occidental: Revúe internationale de sténographie)." split into several sentences. He wrote a Russian-Occidental dictionary whose manuscript was later destryoed. He translated poetry into Occidental. His translation of a Russian poem by Ivan Krylov appeared in the Revúe internationale de sténographie (is that really in Occidental? it looks French to me).
  • István Szerdahelyi [eo] called Kofman "apparently the only one to have written poetry in three constructed languages." seems Mr Szerdahelyi was unaware of Tolkien.
  • "Kofman was reported to have died during aerial bombing in 1940;[2] a message in the Occidental-language magazine Cosmoglotta records him as having died "just before the war".[4]" it would be helpful to put this into context: Operation Barbarossa started in June 1941, and bombing of Odesa started in July 1941. I don't know of any fighting in Odesa in the context of the 1940 Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina.

Will look at lead section soon. —Kusma (talk) 11:01, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Abraham S. Kofman: If you don't mind a little original research: from the 1897 census (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6XN6-4R33 ; you may need to create a free account) it seems to me that he is "Абрам Шлемович Кофман" / Abram Shlemovich Kofman, 33 years old, married to 30 year old Irana (?) Nachyovna, one son Beniamin Abramovich. But are we sure that Abram S. and Abram Antoni are the same?
    Update: I am not convinced this Abram Shlyomovich is our Kofman. According to the census form, he seems to be a teacher (учитель). Other parts are fine (language = Russian, "iud" might indicate religion, and the form says he could read) but I can't decipher everything (pre-reform Cyrillic handwriting). Not sure what this tells us, as I haven't found Abram Antoni in official documents yet.
  • First sentence: he is not just a "Esperanto–language poet" but he is a poet and translator into several conlangs.
  • Is he "Russian" although born in Odesa?
  • "Born in Odesa, Kofman was an early supporter of Esperanto, and one of the first Russian Jews to be so, learning the language in 1889." disentangle, just write several simple sentences instead.
  • "He was responsible for translations" (this is also an issue in the body): to whom was he "responsible"?
  • "influenced the development of the international religion Hillelism" this isn't how I would describe being critical of it and rejecting it outright as mentioned in the body.
  • Is it worth mentioning more of his contributions to non-Esperanto conlangs?
  • Works: "Yĉebnik meždunarodnago jazyka Ido", "Slovar' meždunarodnogo jazyka Ido" I would give the original Cyrillic names as well, not just whatever transliteration this is. The "ĉ" looks out of place here. Do you know the publisher of the books?
  • Poems: these are lacking bibliographical data. Is literaturo.org looks a reputable website?
  • Translations: what is the date of the Faust translation? Same for Lenin.
  • Use {{
    ill}} to link to Vladimir Gernet
    , do not use interwikilinks inline except in bibliographical templates
  • References section: the archives for Google Books links are generally useless
  • Do not link to Google Docs for Auld; this looks like linking to a copyright violation. Not sure about Baghy for the same reason.
  • Why is Delcourt in Further Reading? Looks like it could be a useful source.

Done with this part for now. —Kusma (talk) 13:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

General comments and GA criteria

Good Article
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WP:CV
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3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4.
free or tagged images
() 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the
Good Article criteria. Criteria marked
are unassessed
  • Prose: A few issues (sentences that need separating, mostly).
  • MoS: Lead is a bit short.
  • Ref layout is acceptable. More DOIs or other identifiers instead of Google Books would be better.
  • instead of (unknown), could use NN or "Anon" if it is anonymous.
  • Sources look reliable, but are a bit heavy on use of tertiary sources (encyclopedias) for basic facts, which isn't great.
  • Broadness: seems reasonable compared to encyclopedia articles
  • Focus: my only complaint is the language list for the planned poem
  • Images: File:Брошура Заменгофа 1901 року.png needs a US tag

Further spotchecks to follow. —Kusma (talk) 13:52, 24 March 2024 (UTC) Considering Special:Permanentlink/1215330443.[reply]

  • 10: hmm... "Characteristic of this group was a desire for stylistic freedom" source says "The Slavs showed a particular interest in stylistic freedom". The previous page states that the Fundamenta krestomatia had a "normative" goal of defining Esperanto style. I'm not sure this is represented fully accurately.
  • 12b: ok, but the source makes it clear that Kofman believed Ramstedt to know Japanese.
  • 15: looks ok (don't read Polish, but can point Google Lens at it)
  • 17: ok
  • 22: ok, but would be nice to find the original journal
  • 24: they say "Učebnik" not "Yĉebnik".

No copyvio or original research, but there seem to be slight inaccuracies (see also in prose review above). Done reviewing, putting on hold. —Kusma (talk) 14:52, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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