Talk:Assassin (Fate/stay night)

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This article was nominated for deletion on 9 November 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

I am doing this all from pure memory, and I will eventually put information on his special attacks down. However, I have no idea what the name of his attack is off the top of my head. All I remember was that it is a three way slash that is nearly impossible to dodge. It is said in the Sasaki Kojiro page, but I'm not sure if that's the same name as in Fate. Swallow Cut "Tsubame Gaeshi." Please put this in if you know the information. Also, I have no idea who his master is. I think it's Caster... and I think it's not... Mirioki 00:13, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Assasin is Caster’s servant, but since Caster is also a Servant, the summoning was incomplete (Assasin can’t leave the temple). His attack is Tsubame Gaeshi (Swallow Cut/Swallow Counter) but it cannot be strictly considered a Noble Phantasm, since it doesn’t depend on any specific weapon/creature, and he is an incomplete spirit to begin with. The attack is a physical skill known as a dimensional distortion (Three slashes carried out at the exact same moment), a distortion of reality similar to the Gae Bulg. I’ll add it myself later. Ephyon 02:19, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Done, but I changed Noble Phantasm to Special Technique, since Tsubame Gaeshi has nothing to do with that, unlike Archer's UBW which at least is related to the Phantasms. Ephyon 16:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's no profound distinction between the two, so for simplicity we should simply denote Tsubame Gaeshi as an ability that is treated like a Noble Phantasm (as is the case with Archer).Terek 06:36, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I won't change it yet, but notice how not unlike Enkidu, every source I've seen has Tsubame Gaeshi as a separate skill. The absence of a Noble Phantasm is important to his nature as an incomplete soul, while Archer's UBW just happens to be his real specialty and is in fact related to Phantasms. Ephyon 07:39, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh boy... I'm actually confused with this one. Noble Phantasm is supposed to be a weapon/artifact of some sort that defines a servant. Saber has Excalibur and Berserker has his body while Rider has a Pegasus. However, the real question lies in does an Ability define a Noble Phantasm? Rider has Blood Fort which is basically an ability without an artifact/weapon/thing and that's considered a NP. However, all those NPs used up Mana. On Assassin's case, no mana is used, it's just pure skill. Hm... if you think of it by just that, then Assassin's Tsubami Gaeshi could basically be used with any Nodachi. Rider still needs to stabinate her neck to "activate" her Noble Phantasm, and Lancer still needs to yell out "Gae Bolg" to "activate" his Noble Phantasm. Even UBW requires a chant for activation, but Assassin never "activates" his "Noble Phantasm" unlike all the other NPs. So it's not an NP.

However, Terek is right about one thing, the skill is so profoundly awesome that it can be considered/treated as an NP even if it isn't. (Notice the wording) How it is explained right now, it actually seems the best way to explain his skill. It's not technically an NP, but, since it defines him and it is so profound of a skill, it can be treated like one. Mirioki 07:55, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with the re-categorization of Tsubame, but the additional rewording is completely wrong. The FSN TG is a slicing technique, the Anime Assassin even takes like five minutes to explain this, and removing the "refraction phenomenon" makes it sound as if it were simply a fast attack for someone who hasn't read about it elsewhere, when it is in fact a physic-bending impossibility. If there are no objections to this within one day, I'll change it. Ephyon 10:47, 6 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Moonlit World implies that Kojirou isn't legendary, he's a flat out myth, and that this swordsman is simply a man who has assumed the identity of Kojirou, not unlike how Aveger assumed Shirou's identity in FHA. Any word on confirmation of this? Terek 06:36, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can confirm it... without any sense of of verifiability though. My friend told me he was just a myth who never really existed as a legend. In other words, it seems he was completely made up in the TM universe, unlike Saber who existed as King, for example. He just became an Eirei because his story was so famous... my friend's Japanese and played the game. He told me this like, a year ago...

I think I can safely deduce you are rokettodankairyu correct? This is Konoha speaking, in case you were curious... and I'm pretty sure that Kojirou never actually existed in FSN, but to say that this "Kojiro" is just a swordsman who assumed the identity of "Kojiro" might (emphasis on the might) be an incorrect way of defining him. He is STILL Sasaki Kojiro, even if he never existed, if you understand what I am trying to say. I really, really hate Nasu logic sometimes... Mirioki 06:49, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve done some rewording with his identity and NP: Like Mirioki said, he’s not pretending to be Kojiro, he IS Kojiro, the problem is that no such person ever existed. Unlike the other Servants, Assassin was never alive, but was directly born as a legend from the thoughts of the people throughout the centuries. He’s literally a tale given physical form, which makes a lot of sense when you consider how taxing it is for him to just exist and why he can do something like bending reality without using magic. Also, the literary Tsubame Gaeshi is not the same as the FSN one, usually it’s described as an incredibly fast combination of a downward and a successive upward slash. Ephyon 22:06, 6 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to note one thing though... Nezu says that Sasaki Kojiro does exist according to (real life) history, but the actual legend of Sasaki is something that is doubted. I am aware what I'm about to ask may or may not be described in full detail by Nasu... but... I'm just wondering if the TYPE-MOON world acknowledges a man named "Sasaki Kojiro" existed but Assassin is supposed to represent the legend of "Sasaki Kojiro" or Kojiro never existed and Assassin, well, still represents the legend of "Sasaki Kojiro"? Mirioki 22:20, 6 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Most sources are conveniently ambiguous about this, but if you are willing to take the Anime’s word, in Ep.18 Assassin states that “Sasaki Kojiro is a fake name” because “no such person ever existed”, he was “created within the minds of people” and therefore “lacking any will or desire”. Saber even calls him a “fictitious Servant”. So even if there was some guy called Sasaki Kojiro in our reality that got some undeserved popularity, it seems that he was only a tale in the "Nasuverse". It’s kind of funny that the most realistically possible Servant is the only fake one. Ephyon 23:12, 6 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, very ironic. I just watched episode eighteen after asking the question and realized that Kojiro does not exist in "Nasuverse". I added new information onto the character page pointing out this detail... as Kojiro may have existed in real life. Mirioki 03:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to revert the Assassin identity section because someone made is messier than it should be. A fictitious servant cannot come to life; if that was the case, Angra Mainyu would have been just as powerful as the real Incarnation of Evil when he was summoned during the 3rd war. Assassin is a nameless swordsman who shared simmilarities with the legend of Kojirou, and as a result of the legends, he was able to gain some of Kojirou's abilities. Id est, if there never was a legend of Sasaki Kojirou, Assassin would have just been a normal swordsman, not something as spectacular as he is. Just observe what I wrote; I think everyone will be happy. Terek 05:42, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Right, for simplicity's sake, I just edited out the nasty trouble regarding Kojirou's existence; using the FSN article as a debating forum for such a matter isn't really necessary. Personally, it would appear to me that Assassin was the inspiration for the legend of Kojirou, though many of the deeds, and his name, were fabricated by people; simply put, Assassin never did many of the things he allegedly could. However, because of the significance of Kojirou stories, this nameless warrior was able to, like Angra Maiynu in FHA, gain *some* aspects of the legend. Terek 05:50, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Good enough to me. Though... isn't Angra Mainyu a real person, unlike Sasaki? That's not a real big difference though, I can see how they are similar in a sense, both were given aspects of their legends. After all, aren't Eirei heroic spirits created by the minds of the people anyway? Bah, off topic. In my eyes, the man is Sasaki Kojiro... though, I won't deny that he isn't Sasaki and in truth, is just a nameless swordsman given similarities of the legend of Sasaki Kojiro... but since Sasaki never existed in the first place, we can't say he's pretending because he IS Sasaki. That's his legend... don't mind me, I'm just pushing my ideals about Assassin. The verifiable truth is that Assassin is just a swordsman that holds the name Sasaki, so your description is the best. It avoids the nasty little problem of whether the REAL Sasaki even exists. Mirioki 06:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The sentences: "In the Fate scenario, Assassin drives back Saber during her first assault on the Ryūdōji Temple. During their second meeting, he allows Shirō Emiya and Rin Tōsaka to pass in order to engage Saber in a duel in which he is defeated." imply that the second meeting is in the Fate scenario, but this happens in Unlimited Blade Works.

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Concealment

I have removed this phrase: "Since he is not an assassin, he cannot use the Assassin Ability, Presence Concealment". This doesn't make any sense, because he clearly IS an assassin. He's just not 'true assassin', it needs to be more specific about being a specific servant summoned by a master (and thus assassin-class) and a servant summoned by a servant. Furthmore, presence concealment is listed as one of his abilities, so it is illogical to say that he can't use it. We may need to straighten out which abilities he can actually use here. At which point did he conceal himself anyway? What it D or C level? Tyciol (talk) 04:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]