Talk:Autonomous Republic of Crimea/Archive 4
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Is or was
After the referendum and Putin's signing that the autonomous republic now no longer isn't a part of Ukraine, the past tence must be used. The reason is that Ukraine has no territorial control over the republic. This is not taking side in the conflict, but common practice. And Wiki NPOV. To maintain "is Ukranian" has become incorrect, a simple fact. I suggested 48 hour time limit between event and edit, since Wikipedia isn't a news agency. But this has proven to be difficult. The territory will not become Ukranian again (everything points in the different direction), not even a third hydrogen-bomb World War would hardly change these current facts. Boeing720 (talk) 21:55, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- The status of the Crimea is now "disputed territory", and thus a NPOV description of the Crimea's status should probably say that it is "disputed between the Ukraine and Russia". — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 22:36, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- Russia considers Crimea to be part of Russia. The rest if the world considers Crimea to be illegally occupied by a foreign military. Changing "is" to "was" favors a pro Russian POV and is not neutral for Wikipedia standards. JOJ Hutton 22:44, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- Nonetheless, the peninsula is disputed between Russia and the Ukraine, and one could just as easily call it part of Russia as well as part of Ukraine. Perhaps we should consider Arunachal Pradesh to be part of China? — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 22:49, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- Let's look at this logically. Arunachal Pradesh is pretty much Indian territory, as India controls it. East Jerusalem can be said to be Israeli, because Israel is in charge. Thus, shouldn't Crimea be considered Russian, for the same reason? Or should we consider all three "disputed territory"? — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 22:52, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- Look, so much is going on on Wikipedia over this crisis that there will be deliberate POV pushers coming from both sides. The article already mentions that there is a crisis and that there is a current Russian military occupation of the region, but to change is to was is against the Wikipedia core policy of 22:56, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- Anyhow, I wonder if occupied Japan would have counted as American territory, under my logic there... Whatever. I'm trying to be as NPOV as everyone else. The problem is: what is NPOV, when even the facts are in dispute? — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada23:00, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- What facts exactly are in dispute?JOJ Hutton 23:39, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- Does the Autonomous Republic of Crimea count as a current country? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:48, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- What facts exactly are in dispute?JOJ Hutton 23:39, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- This is borderline madness, Crimea is now part of Russia that is fact, this country should be labeled as historical, no use having full information on a country that is in limbo. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:47, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- Nobody recognizes this as a fact. Do you have any other issues? Otherwise I'll remove the "tags" you added to the article. JOJ Hutton 23:59, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- I agree, the tags do not belong in this article. Knowledgekid87, there's another article Republic of Crimea if you're interested. USchick (talk) 00:03, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- How many countries need to recognize a country before the former is labeled as historical? Should we have the Republic of China include all of China on their map? The Republic of China claims mainland China as part of their country. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:09, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Please provide reliable sources to support your claims. What countries recognize the new Crimea? USchick (talk) 00:16, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Russia recognizes it, the country is no longer under Ukrainian control, Russia has signed the annex treaty.[1] Yes the majority of countries do not recognize Crimea being part of Russia but to say it is still a part of Ukraine when it is not is misleading. It is part of Ukraine I suppose in name only but nothing more. The article should have a historical infobox. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:21, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Russia is the occupying force. Who recognizes it? Anyone? USchick (talk) 00:24, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Russia is a country which answers your question. Also put forward are my other points that you did not address. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:30, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Russia hasn't occupied anything. There has already been more than enough evidence given that the US and UE started riling up the protesters with a confirmed 5 billion dollar check, by the CIA, given to the so-called "protesters" who performed a coup d'eta, the US's 17 democratic government they overthrew in the past 70 years the others being: Syria (1949 & 2012-present), Iran (1953), Guatemala (1954), Indonesia (1956), Cuba (1959), DR Congo (1960-65), South Vietnam (1963), Brazil (1964), Phillipines (1965-1986), Chile (1970-73), Argentina (1976), Turkey (1980), Nicaragua (1981-1990), Venezuela (2002) and Haiti (2004).
- Russia is a country which answers your question. Also put forward are my other points that you did not address. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:30, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Russia is the occupying force. Who recognizes it? Anyone? USchick (talk) 00:24, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Russia recognizes it, the country is no longer under Ukrainian control, Russia has signed the annex treaty.[1] Yes the majority of countries do not recognize Crimea being part of Russia but to say it is still a part of Ukraine when it is not is misleading. It is part of Ukraine I suppose in name only but nothing more. The article should have a historical infobox. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:21, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Please provide reliable sources to support your claims. What countries recognize the new Crimea? USchick (talk) 00:16, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- How many countries need to recognize a country before the former is labeled as historical? Should we have the
- I agree, the tags do not belong in this article. Knowledgekid87, there's another article Republic of Crimea if you're interested. USchick (talk) 00:03, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Nobody recognizes this as a fact. Do you have any other issues? Otherwise I'll remove the "tags" you added to the article. JOJ Hutton 23:59, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- Anyhow, I wonder if
- Look, so much is going on on Wikipedia over this crisis that there will be deliberate POV pushers coming from both sides. The article already mentions that there is a crisis and that there is a current Russian military occupation of the region, but to change is to was is against the Wikipedia core policy of 22:56, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- Let's look at this logically. Arunachal Pradesh is pretty much Indian territory, as India controls it. East Jerusalem can be said to be Israeli, because Israel is in charge. Thus, shouldn't Crimea be considered Russian, for the same reason? Or should we consider all three "disputed territory"? — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 22:52, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- Nonetheless, the peninsula is disputed between Russia and the Ukraine, and one could just as easily call it part of Russia as well as part of Ukraine. Perhaps we should consider Arunachal Pradesh to be part of China? — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 22:49, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- Russia considers Crimea to be part of Russia. The rest if the world considers Crimea to be illegally occupied by a foreign military. Changing "is" to "was" favors a pro Russian POV and is not neutral for Wikipedia standards. JOJ Hutton 22:44, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- And on top of that, who says anyone needs the permission of the US and EU to do anything? The only recognition that should matter is that of the people who live and work in said region and the people have spoken. That should be the only recognition that matters. Hawaiifive0 (talk) 00:44, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Someone should just start a
- Objectivity obliges Wikipedia as being en encyclopedia not to assuming which country's law is right. On other pages at the Wikipedia about disputed areas the country which controlls it gets the label, for example: Tawang District. It is also the most rational solution at any kind of encyclopedia not to comply with that what local or international law dictates, but the absolute physical characteristic. In this case maybe Ukraine, maybe Russia 'should' hold the label, but in reality it is the former for now. I understand it is quite a rare ocasion to see borders changing, so people don't have many opportunies to excercise their objectivism. So please consider keeping consistency. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.154.186.151 (talk) 16:35, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
- Objectivity obliges Wikipedia as being en encyclopedia not to assuming which country's law is right. On other pages at the Wikipedia about disputed areas the country which controlls it gets the label, for example:
Crimea's status
Should this article have a former country infobox with the terms "was" to describe the Autonomous Republic of Crimea? (Sample infobox to right)
Autonomous Republic of Crimea
| |||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1991–2014 | |||||||||||
History | |||||||||||
• Independence referendum | March 18, 2014 2014 | ||||||||||
|
Given the discussion in the above section, please state Oppose, Support or Neutral for your opinion. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:03, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- I have listed this article on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. It is under attack by vandals. USchick (talk) 01:07, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- I don't see any vandalism going on, just content dispute, I for one want to get a consensus, there have been points raised above which you have not replied to. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:10, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Editors opinions are irrelevant. We go by reliable sources. So far, none have been provided for changing anything and the article should be restored to its original condition before the edit warring started. Only then can a discussion take place. USchick (talk) 01:14, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- I agree that the article should be restored but see that there are sources saying that Crimea was annexed by Russia. Even if other countries do not recognize it what kind of diplomatic relations are there? Crimea no longer exists as the world once knew it. I am not trying to sound pro-Russian here just speaking what the reliable sources have been saying on Crimea's status. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:18, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- What sources? How about listing one so we can discuss it? Also, please restore the article. You can revert your own edits with no penalty. Thanks. USchick (talk) 01:20, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Which edit would you like me to undo? As for sources I included one above for the annexation of Crimea by Russia. Here are some more sources: [2][3]. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:24, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- I can come to your house and claim that I own you. So what? Unless someone recognizes what I say, it's irrelevant. Who besides Putin recognizes that a new country now exists? USchick (talk) 01:28, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- I will just drop the stick and see what happens, you provided a-lot of insight as well and thank you for that. I know Ukrainians must feel like a part of them was stolen but the sources I provided are insights on what is happening on the ground. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:34, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- An article already exists Republic of Crimea about a recent event. If you want to add something new, please do it there. Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a newspaper. USchick (talk) 01:38, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- I will just drop the stick and see what happens, you provided a-lot of insight as well and thank you for that. I know Ukrainians must feel like a part of them was stolen but the sources I provided are insights on what is happening on the ground. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:34, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- I can come to your house and claim that I own you. So what? Unless someone recognizes what I say, it's irrelevant. Who besides Putin recognizes that a new country now exists? USchick (talk) 01:28, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Which edit would you like me to undo? As for sources I included one above for the annexation of Crimea by Russia. Here are some more sources: [2][3]. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:24, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- What sources? How about listing one so we can discuss it? Also, please restore the article. You can revert your own edits with no penalty. Thanks. USchick (talk) 01:20, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- I agree that the article should be restored but see that there are sources saying that Crimea was annexed by Russia. Even if other countries do not recognize it what kind of diplomatic relations are there? Crimea no longer exists as the world once knew it. I am not trying to sound pro-Russian here just speaking what the reliable sources have been saying on Crimea's status. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:18, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Editors opinions are irrelevant. We go by reliable sources. So far, none have been provided for changing anything and the article should be restored to its original condition before the edit warring started. Only then can a discussion take place. USchick (talk) 01:14, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- I don't see any vandalism going on, just content dispute, I for one want to get a consensus, there have been points raised above which you have not replied to. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:10, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Knowledgekid87: We do not usually use the former country infobox for disputed state entities, such as in the case of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija. While the Autonomous Republic of Crimea has de facto ceased to exist, it stills exists in the law of Ukraine, and hence is not yet "former". It would only be "former" if it was abolished by Ukraine, which is unlikely. RGloucester — ☎ 01:36, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Please do not do that to the infobox. I agree with RGloucester. This proposal is assuming consensus that there has been a legal transfer, and there isn't, the territory is disputed. The article on the Republic of Kosovo was created, Serbia and its supporters regard Kosovo as being legally an autonomous province of Serbia and that the RoK's secession was illegal. In this case, Ukraine does not regard the Republic of Crimea as a legal government. Therefore no successors should be placed there. Unless Ukraine says that the Autonomous Republic of Crimea no longer exists, it continues to exist in a de jure legal status by Ukraine.--74.12.195.248 (talk) 02:06, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- I oppose the use of {{Infobox Former Country}} for the entity right now. As pointed out by RGloucester above, the Autonomous Republic still exists de jure, and it remains possible for new reliable sources referencing the entity to appear, not to mention the possible (even though unlikely) reversal of the recent change. — Ivan Shmakov (d ▞ c) 06:21, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
The entry should clearly state the situation according to international law, in which Crimea ist still part of Ukraine. There is no UN Security Council or Urkrainian statement otherwise. This means Crimea is a part of Ukrain occupied by Russia.
Protected request: neutral lead for disputed territory
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I need to make the following change to the lead:
'''Crimea''' is a [[territorial dispute|disputed territory]] covering almost all the [[Crimean Peninsula]] in the [[Black Sea]]. Ukraine claims the territory as one of its subdivisions within its contiguous national territory under the name of '''Autonomous Republic of Crimea'''. Russia, on the other hand, claims it as [[federal subjects of Russia|one of its federal subjects]] under the name of '''Republic of Crimea'''. The majority of the international community, however, considers Crimea to be Ukrainian territory rather than a Russian federal subject.
Before the dispute, the territory considered itself an [[autonomous republic]] until it reunified with the city of [[Sevastopol]]. These two regions then declared their independence from Ukraine together [[Republic of Crimea (country)|as a single united nation]]. This nation then [[Accession of Crimea to the Russian Federation|requested accession to Russia]] which [[Treaty on the Adoption of the Republic of Crimea to Russia|was granted separately]]: [[Republic of Crimea|one for the former Autonomous Republic of Crimea]] and another for Sevastopol.{{efn|Englund (2014) "The city of Sevastopol also entered the Russian Federation, as a separate entity—a status it traditionally enjoyed as an important military center."<ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/russias-putin-prepares-to-annex-crimea/2014/03/18/933183b2-654e-45ce-920e-4d18c0ffec73_story.html |title=Kremlin says Crimea is now officially part of Russia after treaty signing, Putin speech |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]] |first=Will |last=Englund |date={{date|2014-03-18}} |accessdate={{date|2014-03-19}} }}</ref>}}<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/18/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/|agency=CNN|title=Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine|date=18 March 2014|accessdate=18 March 2014}}</ref> The Russian federal subject is virtually the same as the Ukrainian autonomous republic, save for being part of Russia as a federal subject rather than being part of Ukraine as an autonomous republic. The accession is temporarily being applied even though it has not been ratified yet.{{by whom|date=March 2014}}
However, the status of the republic is disputed as [[International recognition of the Republic of Crimea|only Russia]] recognized the independence declared by the Autonomous Republic and Sevastopol, as well as being the only nation that recognized their subsequent incorporation into the Russian Federation. Most nations do not recognize these actions due to the [[2014 Russian military intervention in Ukraine|Russian military intervention in Ukraine]] that occurred as these events unfolded. Russia, however, argues that the results of [[Crimean referendum, 2014|a referendum held in Crimea and Sevastopol]] justify the accession, claiming that its result reflected such desire. Internationally, Russia's actions have been [[International reactions to the 2014 Crimean crisis|widely condemned]] as a violation of sovereignty of Ukraine and as an act of aggression. Ukraine, for all intents and purposes, still considers the Autonomous Republic as one of its subdivisions under Ukrainian territory and subject to Ukrainian law.
which looks like:
Crimea is a
Crimean Peninsula in the Black Sea. Ukraine claims the territory as one of its subdivisions within its contiguous national territory under the name of Autonomous Republic of Crimea. Russia, on the other hand, claims it as one of its federal subjectsunder the name of Republic of Crimea. The majority of the international community, however, considers Crimea to be Ukrainian territory rather than a Russian federal subject.Before the dispute, the territory considered itself an
was granted separately: one for the former Autonomous Republic of Crimea and another for Sevastopol.[a][2] The Russian federal subject is virtually the same as the Ukrainian autonomous republic, save for being part of Russia as a federal subject rather than being part of Ukraine as an autonomous republic. The accession is temporarily being applied even though it has not been ratified yet.[by whom?]However, the status of the republic is disputed as
widely condemnedas a violation of sovereignty of Ukraine and as an act of aggression. Ukraine, for all intents and purposes, still considers the Autonomous Republic as one of its subdivisions under Ukrainian territory and subject to Ukrainian law.
This ensures that our visitors are presented with both views as established by
—Ahnoneemoos (talk) 22:41, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- ^ Englund, Will (18 March 2014). "Kremlin says Crimea is now officially part of Russia after treaty signing, Putin speech". The Washington Post. Retrieved 19 March 2014.
- ^ "Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine". CNN. 18 March 2014. Retrieved 18 March 2014.
- Support. I agree that this should be done and sooner rather than later, the damage is already being done through media towards Wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:45, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose until the request for moving the article (above) has been concluded. talk) 22:50, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- It might take days for that discussion to conclude. In the meantime this article will be shown in favor of the Ukrainian POV. This can't happen. As shown above, the media is already catching up to what's occurring in the Wikipedia-verse. One of our core policies is not being maintained by calling an article "Crimea" and implying that "Crimea is the Autonomous Republic of Crimea". Our job is to maintain WP:NPOV no matter what. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 22:54, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Making the lead neutral should be a priority. WP:NPOV is one of our core policies. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:55, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- This has also been discussed at talk) 22:58, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- I would not call it consensus when both sides participating are equally divided. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 23:19, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Well, either way, making this change to the article is not going to get us anywhere if we move the article. It's a conflicting change; we can't decide to both make changes to the article so that it's no longer about the Ukrainian Autonomous Republic, and to move it to talk) 23:37, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- What? It will still be the same article after the move. Autonomous Republic of Crimea redirects to Crimea. What the move will accomplish, is free up the title "Crimea" so it can be used as a Disambiguation page. USchick (talk) 23:42, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- This article is currently about the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, as seen from the POV of Ukraine. The edit proposal above would change the topic of the article so that it's no longer about the Ukrainian AR, but about something else (I'm not sure about what exactly... we already have talk) 00:03, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- This article is currently about the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, as seen from the POV of Ukraine. The edit proposal above would change the topic of the article so that it's no longer about the Ukrainian AR, but about something else (I'm not sure about what exactly... we already have
- I understand your concern but you also need to understand mine: (i) your concern is speculative, (ii) the move has not happened yet, (iii) reverting back is not a problem we do that every day and (iv) the article in its current form is not adhering to WP:NPOV. So, I think this is a great solution. Whether it's temporary or not is irrelevant. The issue at hand right now is not the move, it's the current status of the article. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 23:46, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- But the move in itself is already one way to address POV concerns. Do we need to address it again here, a second time, separately? I think that addressing it once is enough, as long as what we do the first time (i.e. the move) is effective. talk) 00:03, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- But the move in itself is already one way to address POV concerns. Do we need to address it again here, a second time, separately? I think that addressing it once is enough, as long as what we do the first time (i.e. the move) is effective.
- What? It will still be the same article after the move. Autonomous Republic of Crimea redirects to Crimea. What the move will accomplish, is free up the title "Crimea" so it can be used as a Disambiguation page. USchick (talk) 23:42, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Well, either way, making this change to the article is not going to get us anywhere if we move the article. It's a conflicting change; we can't decide to both make changes to the article so that it's no longer about the Ukrainian Autonomous Republic, and to move it to
- I would not call it consensus when both sides participating are equally divided. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 23:19, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- This has also been discussed at
- It might take days for that discussion to conclude. In the meantime this article will be shown in favor of the Ukrainian POV. This can't happen. As shown above, the media is already catching up to what's occurring in the Wikipedia-verse. One of our core policies is not being maintained by calling an article "Crimea" and implying that "Crimea is the Autonomous Republic of Crimea". Our job is to maintain
- Withdrawing my support until after the move. Great lead though! Love it. USchick (talk) 00:13, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Heavily oppose any change until the RM is finished - I don't like doing this, but I think it is necessary to wait. We can't change the scope of the article until the move request is finished, as this would adversely impact the move discussion. RGloucester — ☎ 23:51, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- I still think we should try to fast track the move, as an alternative solution. RGloucester — ☎ 23:52, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- It will still be the same article after the move. Right now Autonomous Republic of Crimea redirects to Crimea. What the move will accomplish, is free up the title "Crimea" so it can be used as a Disambiguation page. USchick (talk) 23:55, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- I still think we should try to fast track the move, as an alternative solution. RGloucester — ☎ 23:52, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
- Exactly. It will be same the article, which is just what we need. If we change the article now, it won't be suited to be the "Autonomous Republic of Crimea" article. It will an article about Crimea as a whole, screwing up the move discussion, and requiring the creation of a new article on the autonomous republic. RGloucester — ☎ 00:01, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Alright, perhaps I will be bold and start a new article at Autonomous Republic of Crimea, allowing you to restructure the lead? RGloucester — ☎ 00:03, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Hmm. You're right. Wait, don't be bold. It was already done and reverted. That's why we're here now. USchick (talk) 00:05, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- The last thing we need is yet another content fork. If we're intending to move this article there, we might as well do it now. talk) 00:08, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- I agree entirely, but we can't seem to get any help from administrators, at the moment. The situation looks dire, especially if it is generating media coverage. RGloucester — ☎ 00:12, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Is there a way we could get an administrator's immediate attention on this? talk) 00:21, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Is there a way we could get an administrator's immediate attention on this?
- Alright, perhaps I will be bold and start a new article at Autonomous Republic of Crimea, allowing you to restructure the lead? RGloucester — ☎ 00:03, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- I've tried multiple times on ANI, to no avail. RGloucester — ☎ 00:23, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- This requested move could drag on for days. If we change the lede now, it would solve an immediate problem. Then if the article gets moved, we can change it back. If it doesn't get moved, it can stay as is. What do you think about that? USchick (talk) 00:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- We need an admin whether we move or make the edit... so they might as well just do the move? talk) 00:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- We need an admin whether we move or make the edit... so they might as well just do the move?
- This requested move could drag on for days. If we change the lede now, it would solve an immediate problem. Then if the article gets moved, we can change it back. If it doesn't get moved, it can stay as is. What do you think about that? USchick (talk) 00:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Exactly. Moving the article solves all of our problems. Changing the lead will be incredibly confusing, and leave the Autonomous Republic without an article, violating NPOV, since we have one on Republic of Crimea. RGloucester — ☎ 00:31, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Various administrators think that the process should remain as it is, judging by their comments at WP:ANI. I guess that means we are stuck with what we have. RGloucester — ☎01:43, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- It doesn't help though that the fact is that the article is a WP:NPOV mess the way it is now. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:48, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- It doesn't help though that the fact is that the article is a
- It literally is a total mess. I mentioned that in my response to administrators requesting that we let the article "evolve naturally" at WP:AN#Crimea. RGloucester — ☎01:54, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose This user needs to learn what 02:08, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- We don't get to decide whether it is Ukrainian or Russian, as that would be taking a side. We merely present what is happening on the ground, from a neutral perspective. RGloucester — ☎ 02:07, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Russian sources say that they have a claim. They now de facto rule Crimea. We can't ignore the facts on the ground. RGloucester — ☎ 02:12, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Russian Sources? Did you really just use Russian sources? You really went there? Of course they will say that. I also read an advertisement from Coke saying that they have the best tasting cola on Earth. Obviously not biased either. And still the Russian claim has no International support. I though that the international was implied, but I guess not.—JOJ Hutton 02:23, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter whether the claim has "international support". If there are people, a good amount of them, at that, that believe that the claim is valid, then one can't minimise it. That would be taking the point of view that "Russia has no claim" which is not universally held, nor neutral. We have to present the spectrum of opinions in a neutral manner. By your logic, we should not use American or British sources either, and yet, we do. RGloucester — ☎ 02:41, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- The sources are not minimizing the claim, but most of the sources state that the international community considers Crimea to be under a foreign occupation force. That too cannot be ignored, especially since they are the majority of sources. So if the sources are stating that Crimea is still Ukrainian, but is under Russian occupation, why should the article give undue weight by adding Russian flags and calling the area disputed, especially in the lead and the infobox, when sources say that its not disputed, but under occupation?—JOJ Hutton 02:48, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- It is disputed, between Ukraine and Russia. "Occupation" is loaded with implications that are not acceptable from a NPOV standpoint. Look at Transnistria or South Ossetia. These are disputes. RGloucester — ☎ 03:00, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- The very definition of a territorial dispute is the claim from one nation onto a territory and a different claim on that same territory by another nation. This is what is happening right now: Ukraine claims Crimea as its own while Russia claims it as its own as well. We are not here to take sides. There is a dispute, period. Whatever the reasoning behind that dispute is IRRELEVANT for us at Wikipedia. We have a whole nation claiming a territory vs. another whole nation claiming the same territory. Implying that "Crimea" is the Autonomous Republic is a contravention to our core policy of WP:NPOV. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 03:03, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- The very definition of a territorial dispute is the claim from one nation onto a territory and a different claim on that same territory by another nation. This is what is happening right now: Ukraine claims Crimea as its own while Russia claims it as its own as well. We are not here to take sides. There is a dispute, period. Whatever the reasoning behind that dispute is IRRELEVANT for us at Wikipedia. We have a whole nation claiming a territory vs. another whole nation claiming the same territory. Implying that "Crimea" is the Autonomous Republic is a contravention to our core policy of
- Please show us a policy that states that we go by what the international community supports or does not support. There is not one, not a single policy stating such. The only policy we have is the third largest military expenditure in the world, and also happens to be the 8th largest country in the world by GDP. Please show us under what argument based on facts and our policies do you base your claim that this is undue weight. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 02:57, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. No, this is not a disputed territory. Crimea existed for centuries as Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, etc.My very best wishes (talk) 03:07, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- "Not a disputed territory"? Ukraine claims Crimea as it's own. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:13, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Comment. I'd like to remind everyone that nationalistic attitudes like the ones we see here is why the article got locked to begin with. Maybe it needs to stay locked? USchick (talk) 03:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- At this point I would support that idea, there are a large number of editors from Ukraine and from Russia that edit Wikipedia and given how personal things have become there is likely going to be some waves created, Some are able to stay neutral throughout editing while others may be editing in a NPOV way without even knowing it, not to say this is a bad thing but I feel this is why there is turmoil here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:36, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Not done: It doesn't look like there is a consensus for this text at this point in time. As some have suggested, it may be a good idea to wait for the requested move to be closed and try again after that. Or you could split the requests up into smaller chunks and try and get consensus on each of the chunks individually. When you have a consensus for any given text to be added, please submit a new edit request. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 05:55, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Mr. Stradivarius. I agree, these discussions look to me as "no consensus" and possibly can be closed by now. All participants must agree stop moving articles. However, a lot could be improved by splitting and moving content in existing articles (e.g. as I suggested above). Perhaps one could remove protection and allow editing - this relates to current events, and I do not think this protection serves the purpose of improving content.My very best wishes (talk) 17:31, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Considering the nationalistic hostilities of individual editors on this talk page, I continue to support the edit restrictions to admins. However, we now know several things that we didn't know yesterday and they may be worth discussing. The page move will take at least 7 days, maybe longer. So it may be in our best interest to reach consensus about the lede, since an admin will come by within 24 hours to check on the status of this article. Shall we try again? USchick (talk) 17:39, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Mr. Stradivarius. I agree, these discussions look to me as "no consensus" and possibly can be closed by now. All participants must agree stop moving articles. However, a lot could be improved by splitting and moving content in existing articles (e.g. as I suggested above). Perhaps one could remove protection and allow editing - this relates to current events, and I do not think this protection serves the purpose of improving content.My very best wishes (talk) 17:31, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
A neutral way would be quite misleading. The only relevant thing here is the international law, and there has been no change. That means that Ukraine does not not need to "claim" anything since Crimea is Ukrainian teritory is a well established fact. What happend is, is that Crimea is now a Russian occupied part of Ukrain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.64.181.113 (talk) 16:12, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
- International law is not the only relevant thing. Wiktionary is not an encyclopedia of international law and politics. Facts don't matter, because different people see facts differently. Russia sees Crimea being Russian as a fact. Ukraine sees Crimea being Ukrainian as a fact. But what good does that do? Are we supposed to pick sides and decide which of those claims is "right"? No! That would be a gross violation of Wikipedia's neutrality. So we should go with what the sources say and present each point of view neutrally. That Crimea is occupied by Russia is well established in sources. That Russia has made a territorial claim to Crimea, and some other parties have supported that claim, is also well sourced. That Ukraine and many other countries in Europe dispute that claim, and affirm that Crimea is Ukrainian, is also very clearly established. So what do you propose we do? Just ignoring part of the story violates talk) 16:43, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Autonomous Republic of Crimea's government
Since this article, as of me writing this, is actually about the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, within Ukraine, shouldn't the infobox be changed to note that there's basically no Ukrainian-recognized government in the area? According to the article on the
- The article already discusses the fact that Crimea is currently under Russian occupation and that this occupation is "considered to be illegal" by several international entities. JOJ Hutton 14:21, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, but that's not what I'm saying. The infobox has, for instance, Sergey Aksyonov listed as "(de facto)" Prime Minister of Crimea. The problem is that this article, as the very first sentence makes clear, is about the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, not a general article about the peninsula. Furthermore the Supreme Council of the Autonomous Republic was apparently dissolved on March 15, which either means it was literally declared abolished or its present composition simply rendered null and void pending new elections. Clarification of the latter is important. --Ismail (talk) 17:41, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
talk ) 20:24, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 21 March 2014
You should add russian Crimea annexation Date Mathsquare (talk) 20:17, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Should we change the name to Republic of Crimea yet?The reunfication treaty is now signed and will go into immediate effect after it is ratified by the Russian parliament. That means this is not going anway and there will have to be changes to this article as well as others. Now as to what do we exactly write.. I think we should follow the administration's lead on this and try to distill as much as we can from what comes out of the Whitehouse and what they are feeding mainstream media. We really need the right kind of hasbara here. Maybe we should ask the George Soros people what they would like to see here, after all they're the ones who screwed it all up in the first place.
Anyhow until we get some sort of official story together we need to keep the article locked. 54.224.234.229 (talk) BB — Preceding undated comment added 23:10, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
I think it's important to recognize until there is an official document or declaration, such as a constitution, declaring that Crimea is an independent nation, it is not in business of Wikipedia or it's propaganda-biased users to determine whether it is no longer a part of Ukraine. Crimea is officially a part of Ukraine until something can officially declare the opposite. I think the election of a president or prime minister, or the signing of a declaration of independence/constitution would be the time to change the status of the region. Until then, it should remain as is. 131.247.226.144 (talk) 21:03, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Well, now it's been signed in as part of Russia. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d93e4c7c-ae6d-11e3-8e41-00144feab7de.html So, I reckon it's safe to alter the Name. Jimmydreads (talk) 12:17, 18 March 2014 (UTC) They don't have the right to do so, so it stays in Ukraine HighVoltageLP (talk) 17:17, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Crimea is UkrainianI don't care what people have to say about Crimea being russian or not, its still Ukrainian and it is annexed by Russia while being hardly connected to Russia. Obviously, if he wanted to have Crimea, then he would have to take eastern Ukraine too. What he is doing is a violation against international law and against a nation's right for sovereignty! Plus, Svoboda, the Neo-Nazi Party, is making the country, the US, and the EU look bad so I think they should be arrested, as they have no place in the post-Yanukovich Ukraine.--Crimsonhammer43 (talk) 13:04, 22 March 2014 (UTC)User:Crimsonhammer43 7:59, 22 March, 2014 (UTC)
We should full lock this pageThis is getting out of hand, if you read through the article its a mess of past tense, present tense, and incorrect facts (See official language)--Cheesenibbles (talk) 04:59, 19 March 2014 (UTC) Like it or not Crimea is now part of the Russian Federation. After a referendum with the participation of over 75% that article still say that Crimea is Ukraine instead of was, and the use of two articles one for the non-existing ucranian Crimea and other for the actual Crimea (now a republic part of the Russian Federation) is stupid. Please, update the article, and use common sense. And if in the future the political status of Crimea changes (which it appears that it will not) it will return to the old version with one click. But hidding information and current status of this Republic is a nonsense. —Mikatey (talk) 13:26, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Edit RequestAs per http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26621726 Russia now recognises Crimea as a Sovereign and independent state it is no longer a region within Ukraine, the lead needs changing to reflect this. As soon as another state recognises another this is meets the criteria of statehood 77.97.151.145 (talk) 20:33, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
As soon as one state recognises another this meets the criteria of statehood regardless of the views of other nations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state#Recognition States "There is no definition that is binding on all the members of the community of nations on the criteria for statehood. In actual practice, the criteria are mainly political, not legal.[17] L.C. Green cited the recognition of the unborn Polish and Czech states in World War I and explained that "since recognition of statehood is a matter of discretion, it is open to any existing State to accept as a state any entity it wishes, regardless of the existence of territory or of an established government." Crimea defiantly falls into this criteria with Russia's recognition 77.97.151.145 (talk) 20:39, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
"Therefore the article will continue to reflect that Crimea is part of Ukraine. For the unrecognized state, see Republic of Crimea, which is a separate article." If you want to spilt the article in two then Crimea should lead to Republic of Crimea as this is the current state of the nation or a disambiguation page, but I feel one article would suffice with it's history with Ukraine listed in the history section of the article and it's current status as a sovereign state stated in the lead 77.97.151.145 (talk) 20:55, 17 March 2014 (UTC) " I don't believe that follows the encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia, to go with the minority on situations such as these.74.76.57.171" It's not about a minority/majority or POV issue, it's about what is required to attain statehood in Crimea meeting this requirement which it now does 77.97.151.145 (talk) 20:56, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
It only requires one nation to recognise another for it to attain statehood, it matters not if other nations do not recognise it. 77.97.151.145 (talk) 21:52, 17 March 2014 (UTC) Please add that the Crimean referendum is illegal according to Title III, Article 71 and 72, of the Constitution of Ukraine [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Konstantinchik (talk • contribs) 07:06, 18 March 2014 (UTC) Debatable if the constitution still stands, as the current Prime Minister who under Title V article 112 is assuming duty of President has potentially already broken numerous constitutional rules. To list a few..Title V article 2, by speaking on news he addresses Public [1]. Art 10 [2] article 16 [3]Jimmydreads (talk) 19:18, 18 March 2014 (UTC) On 28 February 2014, Russian Ground Forces occupied airports and other strategic locations in Crimea.[57] This text does NOT represent the video material content, which it is recalls. Original about military base in Sevastopol. Wiki says it is about Crimea, that is not correct. On 28 February 2014, Russian Ground Forces occupied airports and other strategic locations in Simferopol.[57] But new text is a obvious statement due to the fact that Simferopol is a Russian military base. Please delete the text. (21 03 2014 Vladimir) Offical languageEven if Russia annexed it, which it cant legally, has there been a deceleration of change in the national language? Why is it listed as Russian.
The battle for the land of the Khazars. Crimea. History of 20th century http://russ-history.blogspot.ru/2014/03/the-battle-for-land-of-khazars-crimea.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anton Kol (talk • contribs) 14:20, 20 March 2014 (UTC) the separation from Ukraine is entirely legal by international law. "On 22 July 2010, the court ruled that the declaration of independence was not in violation of international law.[119][120][121] The President of the ICJ Justice Hisashi Owada said that international law contains no "prohibition on declarations of independence." The court also said while the declaration may not have been illegal, the issue of recognition was a political one.[122]" that is from the wikipedia page on Kosovo, so as you can see international law contains "NO PROHIBITION ON DECLARATIONS OF INDEPENDENCE" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sfrantzis (talk • contribs) 09:59, 23 March 2014 (UTC) Proposal for neutral, geographic article about CrimeaCrimea is the name of a peninsula in Europe, it is not a state nor a single administrative unit of any state. My proposal is to make Crimea an article with no flags but with geography, climate, nature, history and demographics sections. This edit can send the politic discussions to the relevant pages: Autonomous Republic of Crimea, Republic of Crimea etc. Predavatel (talk) 06:57, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
This should have happened some time ago, even before the current crisis, as already Sevastopol is clearly in Crimea but not in the Autonomous Republic. Precedents: dab (𒁳) 11:20, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
Crimea now part of Russia – not UkraineWhether people on here like it or not, Crimea has been annexed by the Russian Federation. It doesn't really matter if it is legal or illegal because Ukraine has not defended it. This wikipedia article should reflect this. 129.234.37.53 (talk) 13:50, 19 March 2014 (UTC) Wikipedia is an lexicon and should show the real situation on the ground. There is no need to state things which aren't true, for instance the official language. Even if the world doesn't recognize Crimea as a part of Russia, in reality it is de facto a part of the Russian federation. For instance a person wants to travel to Crimea, the person opens Wikipedia and Wiki shows that the person needs to travel to Ukraine, but that's simply not true. The person would need a visa for Russia.
According to international law, Crimea might be occudied, but is in no way now part of the Russian Federation. This is until the UN Security Council or Ukrain decide otherwise. Please read about international law. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.64.181.113 (talk) 16:03, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Since Wikipedia insist in calling Israeli lands attained after 67 as occupied territories apply the same standards to Russia.204.14.66.194 (talk) 13:05, 23 March 2014 (UTC) editprotected
replace the word "ferry" (single hit) with link to new page Kerch Strait ferry line. - Altenmann >t 19:45, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
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