Talk:Black Cat (Marvel Comics)

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And while Julie Newmar did wear a black outfit as Catwoman in the Batman television show, she was not remotely a cat burglar - she used henchman to rob museums and banks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.91.165.60 (talk) 04:38, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Look, we can go around in circles debating this. However, some people here seem to have an agenda or bias. Yes, Black Cat's depiction came first. But Catwoman was protrayed with similar aspects long before Frank Miller's Batman reboot.

FACT: Catwoman was a cat burglar in her early appearances by the literal definition. Look up Merriam-Webster's entry for "cat burglar" and read her first three comic book appearances.

FACT: Catwoman wore a black catsuit in the 1966 Batman television series, but was not a cat burglar.

FACT: In both her early comic book appearances and the television series, she was a love interest for Batman, granted unrequited.

Again, this doesn't change the fact that Black Cat combined all these things first and took it further. But it should be mentioned that Catwoman did have aspects of Black Cat in previous media.--Mike Castle (talk) 13:25, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But it's debatable whether these "facts" are more appropriate in the Catwoman entry as they have more to do with Catwoman than with Black Cat herself. As it stands, stating Black Cat is not an homage and her incarnation came first is more than enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.165.183.14 (talk) 19:33, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it isn't. The statement that "her incarnation came first" comes off slightly disingenuous unless it is briefly explained why and with cited references, which is what has been done. The very small amount of information given about Catwoman is relevent to the paragraph (which is small) and is meant to both show why and explain the misconception without speculation.--Mike Castle (talk) 00:24, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

By the bits:

1. There needs to be a cited, solid, references to the for the Catwoman bits.
2. The Wolfman cite (just above the 2 problem paragraphs and used to justify their inclusion) is clear that the DC character wasn't an inspiration/influence.
3. Of "signature costume, cat burglar profession, and her steady relationship" only "steady" loosely fits the "predate by almost a decade". The same aspects — signature cat-themed costume, operating as a cat burglar, and a flirtatious attitude towards Batman — all existed for Catwoman prior to Miller and prior to 1981.
4. The reference to the 1960s Batman television show and movie is a real stretch in an article that isn't about that character. Let a lone an article about a character, by the cite, which wasn't even influenced by Catwoman.
5. The DCvMK is beyond a stretch since it's making the assumption "leather and cleavage... gotta relate to Black Cat."

As a whole the 2 paragraphs read as fan spec, at best. At worst it's an attempt to present a drawn conclusion (

- J Greb (talk) 02:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So you need me to cite the author, title, publicsher, date where it says: "...Batman didn't occur until 1987 with Frank Miller's classic Batman: Year One."

Marv Wolfman, the CREATOR, referenced a common misconception, one prevalent enough to be addressed by WIZARD MAGAZINE. The following paragraphs clear up the misconception.

The fanboy issue stems from your personal issues with the FACTS:

The Black Cat, a black suited cat burglar' (–noun: a burglar who breaks into buildings by climbing through upstairs windows, across roofs, etc., esp. with great stealth and agility)' appeared in Marvel Comics in 1978. Her cleavage bearing costume, a tool she has used since she chose the costume, is referenced throughout her appearance, most notably the recent Spider-Man Unlimited 14, Spider-man Black Cat: the Evil That Men Do, etc.

The original Catwoman was NOT a cat burglar by the definition cited: She used large cats to commit brazen crime. She typically wore a purple dress and used a whip. She had an island with circus animals at one point. Her black suit and MO was altered by Frank Miller in 1987 in Batman Year One. It had not yet appeared in the comics prior. (Please cite where it had prior)

The flirtatious aspect is irrelevant as almost every single female villain followed the same characteristic throughout both DC and Marvel. Aside from that, while I completely understand Catwoman showed favor to bats, Spider-man actually dated the Black Cat years before the relationship was even explored in Batman.

Take out the Batman TV show quip if you like. It merely describes the possible misconception. But in terms of comic lore, you are misinformed and should cite how this posted information is incorrect.

There is no supposition here: The recent game model of Catwoman bears an even greater resemblance to the Black Cat costume as it sports an aspect never before shown and a signature aspect of the character Black Cat.

The long and the short: If the reason for these two, now three, paragraphs is to refute the "Black Cat is an homage to Catwoman", they're over kill. The Wolfman quote that is in the article is enough. If needs be, ad the one or two sentences about Wizard doing the run down along with an expanded quote of Wolfman from that article, if such exists. This is, like the CBR interview, a good secondary source.

Everything else reads as "In fact, from 1979 Catwoman has become, if anything, an homage to Black Cat." That is presenting a point of view with out citing secondary sources. Using The Dark Knight Returns and the upcoming DCUvsMK is making the agument from primary sources. Unless there is some reliable secondary source that explicity lays that idea out, the three paragraphs should go. - J Greb (talk) 21:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is no assumption that Catwoman copied Black Cat and it's never stated in the entry.

The facts are laid out to show why there is confusion about the similarities in characters and clear up a common misconception. Sorry if you think it's too long but your subjective opionion on overkill for a factual discussion is not reason enough to change entry.

Please read up on Batman, Catwoman, and the Black Cat before assuming this is fanboy rage. You are misinformed about Catwoman's inital conception prior to BATMAN: YEAR ONE (not the Dark Knight Returns). It was a significant moment that relaunched the Catwoman character and documented in the primary source of the comic itself.

If you're not familiar with this comic, you cannot refute it as a source. The proof is on the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.142.243.122 (talk) 23:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone, we can go around in circles debating this. However, some people here seem to have an agenda or bias. Yes, Black Cat's depiction came first. But Catwoman was protrayed with similar aspects long before Frank Miller's Batman reboot.

FACT: Catwoman was a cat burglar in her early appearances by the literal definition. Look up Merriam-Webster's entry for "cat burglar" and read her first three comic book appearances.

Her first appearance she swiped a necklace at a full party - hardly a cat burglar crime by any definition.

FACT: Catwoman wore a black catsuit in the 1966 Batman television series, but was not a cat burglar.

FACT: The catsuite originated in Alfred Hitchcock's To Catch a Thief and was already popular on the show The Avengers so citing Catwoman on TV is irrelevant.

FACT: In both her early comic book appearances and the television series, she was a love interest for Batman, granted unrequited.

FACT: She tried to seduce him just like every single female villian in popular fiction. Not really relevant.

Again, this doesn't change the fact that Black Cat combined all these things first and took it further. Nor does it change the fact that Marv Wolfman has clearly stated that his character was not an homage to Catwoman. But, if you're going to mention that Black Cat's protrayal predated the modern protrayal of Catwoman, it should be mentioned that Catwoman did have aspects of Black Cat in previous media, which is why it was asked of Marv Wolfman in the first place.--Mike Castle (talk) 13:24, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think your changes to the entry are fair and hope there isn't too much changes. But the article should (and did) clarify there was an erroneous belief of Black Cat as an homage. Neither character's creation was related and the info you provided could just have easily been attirbuted to any other fictional female foil.

The very small amount of information I gave about Catwoman is relevent to the paragraph (which is small) and is meant to both show why the belief is erroneous and explain the misconception without speculation.--Mike Castle (talk) 00:30, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Catwoman first appeared as THE CAT in Batman #1. She was not a catburglar just a confused woman WITH NO MASK and a purple dress who fancied Batman. In the following issues she was shown to be a woman with amnesia. The article does not say Black Cat copied Catwoman or Catwoman copied Black Cat. It simply says that the misconception is silly based on the timeline of creations.

According to Merriam-Webster:

A cat burglar is A burglar who is adept at entering and leaving the burglarized place without attracting attention. That is exactly what Catwoman or "the Cat" was in her very early appearances. I'm sorry, but this is a fact. It doesn't change the fact that Black Cat's famous depiction (which is very similar to Catwoman's final modern depiction) came first.--Mike Castle (talk) 13:13, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article is confusing. It is clear that Marv Wolfman conceived the idea of the Black Cat, and it is stated that Dave Cockrum designed "the costume and appearance". So what was Keith Pollard's involvement, and does it really merit inclusion here? MultipleTom (talk) 18:17, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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She has the bad luck powers again in ASM 606. No explanation is given, though I assume it's more Brand New Day we don't need to explain things anymore nonsense. The article should be updated to include this, as it currently lists the bad luck power as a former power.24.190.34.219 (talk) 13:21, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted the poorly spelt and rumour laden 'Film' section, as it listed no sources. Perhaps best left alone until there some concrete sources emerge online? Malenkym (talk) 22:04, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. I've removed these countless times. Until we have a source of confirmed casting, there shouldn't be anything about Spidey 4 in this article. Planewalker Dave (talk) 01:25, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And right now the page is semi-protected for 3 days. Hopefully the annons will pop in here at the talk page to explain where they're getting the information. - J Greb (talk) 23:49, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so. Yes it was referenced once in the Evil that Men Do issue #1. "I haven't had a boyfriend in a long time, or a girlfriend for that matter." But isn't "girlfriend" a slang term modern women use to refer to there friends? It doesn't have to be something sexual or Hell even something platonic like in Brokeback Mountain. Since it is open to interpretation I thought I should post my opions on the matter here and see what ya'll think. Hollister4Mayor (talk) 04:43, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Editors making revisions based on fandom and not facts. Black Cat, a woman wearing a low cut, black body suit who used cables to climb buildings and steal (cat burglaries) first appeared on July, 1979 and immediately started a mutual romantic relationship (dating) with Spider-man. Up to that 1979 date, Catwoman had appeared in comics wearing purple dress, committed bank robberies, had a CatCar and pet lions. Editor continues to suggest Black Cat was based on Catwoman (calling creator,Wolfman, a liar?) when Catwoman did not adopt a similar attire until 1987 (Frank Miller Year One). Simply compare how Black Cat and Catwoman were seen in comics in 1979 and how they are represented now. Please comment

• Comment While the comparison is natural, possibly charged with energy overflowing from the DC vs Marvel fight, I think its completely inappropriate to comment in this article on any connection between the two characters without substantial evidence. And as was mentioned in the original RFC, the characters show little to no resemblance outside of sharing the profession of being cat burglars. Black Cat first appearance here ^[1] vs Catwoman first appearance here: ^[2] It seems to me that the argument is baseless as it would also assume that all cat burglar themed characters post Catwoman would then be considered rip-off characters. Side note: I do find it kind of interesting that the cover of Detective Comics 122 calls Catwoman's crime spree "The Black Cat Crimes!" Pistongrinder (talk) 17:29, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• • Agreed- the only reason the connection between characters was included in the entry was due to the creator, Marv Wolfman, publicly addressing the much brought up issue (and asked directly in WIZARD magazine) and clarifying the origins of the character was for Spiderwoman and based on a Tex Avery cartoon. Black Cat has been consistent in costume and character throughout her existence in the MCU. Catwoman however has gone from her first appearance: ^[3] to now this: ^[4] Regardless, I think it is logical that any alterations to the entry to suggest Black Cat's creation is any way related to Catwoman is disingenuous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.97.245.214 (talk) 17:51, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• • • That supplied image of the Catowman figure makes it look like her hip is busted and jetting from her side! Based on the supplied info from the WIZARD article, wow that takes me back, and the easily found visual evidence, covers a lone, there is no footing to stand on and the issue appears to be nothing more than DC vs Marvel fodder. I vote that all associations between the characters be omitted as being baseless and unhelpful. Pistongrinder (talk) 15:49, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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