Talk:Blading (professional wrestling)
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Kayfabe
I edited this article to make it clear what was kayfabe and what wasn't. i.e. the previous version read "Steve Austin supposedly passed out from blood loss due to blading..." No--Steve Austin "passed out" because the storyline required him to do so, so that he could lose to Bret Hart without submitting to the Sharpshooter. Saying he passed out due to blading would indicate that this was either something that really happened (Which it didn't) or a storyline which the WWE acknowledged on air (Which they haven't, because blading has never been explicitly outed to the public by any wrestling organisation as far as I know). Please don't revert things that make sense. similarly with The Mass Transit incident, Transit requiring 50 stitches is mentioned in several articles, including the Rise and Fall of ECW book, and was reported in the legit wrestling magazine Power Slam at the time it happened. On the other hand, New Jack saying he did it deliberately on a wrestling DVD can't be considered a statement of fact, since he may have been in character at the time. Daigo 11:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone insert here the reasoning that wrestlers do this? It seems to be like ego or something, if they hide their blades, they could just hide blood packets that look just as good, or fake (most people think its fake blood anyway)
- Because fake blood really doesn't look or act the same. RasputinAXP 19:23, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Very True. By the way, actually getting a picture, while it probably would be considered to be gruesome, might get the idea accoss about blading.
- As well, in a high-impact wrestling match, there's the very real risk that a blood packet will burst prematurely. --HBK 15:09, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
- Another factor could be that a genuine cut on the forehead will continue to produce blood throughout much of the match, as opposed to blood packets, which would eventually smear and reveal that no real cut exists. Jeff Silvers 02:20, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
- I second the request for a picture: perhaps something from the Muta Scale?
- only Asain Mist is in a packet Prince Bee (talk) 07:13, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
professional wrestling slang:
- Muta scale, a scale to measure the amount of blood lost by a wrestler in a match. The scale goes from 0.0 (no blood loss) to 1.0 (corresponds to the amount of blood lost by The Great Muta during a 1992 match against Hiroshi Hase, during which Muta performed what is widely hailed as the most gruesome bladejobof all time).
We would be even more likely to watch if ever larger
That should be mentioned.
[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 13:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Wrestlers "blading" other wrestlers
Even though the article says that wrestlers blading another wrestler is extremely rare doesn't mean it doesn't happen to this day. Triple H did just that to William Regal on the Jan. 7th episode of Raw. Should this be added as an example? —
]- If you can find a ]
Good Resource, Should Be Added
I'm not a frequent on wikipedia but an article getting some praise about the subject of blading can be found here:
Blading Without Wheels: The History of Blood In Wrestling
It may be a very useful resource. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.225.71 (talk) 11:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Triple H??? and A Few Other Notes
Should Triple H be noted as a regular bladder? Especially in High Definition when there are close up shots to his forehead you are really starting to see the scars and wear and tear that's left over from past matches with bladding or being busted open the hard way with barb wire. Shouldn't barbed wire itself be included in this article as it is another way that wrestlers bust them selves open? And I was thinking maybe a picture or two, maybe with to show results of Dusty's, New Jack's or Terry Funk's head? Just to help paint the picture better for the reader? These are just a couple of ideas that I had to improve the article for a confused reader who is does have a whole lot of light on the subject. I figured I'd run the ideas by everyone through here before attempting to edit the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.248.229.206 (talk) 17:14, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Requested moves
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the pages, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 00:32, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
- Blading (professional wrestling) → Blading (wrestling)
- Botch (professional wrestling) → Botch (wrestling)
- Cruiserweight (professional wrestling) → Cruiserweight (wrestling)
- Face (professional wrestling) → Face (wrestling)
- Feud (professional wrestling) → Feud (wrestling)
- Heat (professional wrestling) → Heat (wrestling)
- Heel (professional wrestling) → Heel (wrestling)
- Job (professional wrestling) → Job (wrestling)
- Cutter (professional wrestling) → Cutter (wrestling)
- DDT (professional wrestling) → DDT (wrestling)
- Piledriver (professional wrestling) → Piledriver (wrestling)
- Stunner (professional wrestling) → Stunner (wrestling)
- All Together (professional wrestling) → All Together (wrestling)
- Battle of Los Angeles (professional wrestling) → Battle of Los Angeles (wrestling)
- Diamond Ring (professional wrestling) → Diamond Ring (wrestling)
- Evolve (professional wrestling) → Evolve (wrestling)
- Kingdom (professional wrestling) → Kingdom (wrestling)
- Mass Transit incident (professional wrestling) → Mass Transit incident (wrestling)
- NEVER (professional wrestling) → NEVER (wrestling)
- XWA (professional wrestling) → XWA (wrestling)
– (wrestling) is simple and
- I'd also like to add on that reliable sources reflect that (wrestling) is a suitable shortening of (professional wrestling). Associated Press: "Once billed as "Hollywood" Hulk Hogan, wrestling's marquee star has a scaled down title at 60." Reuters: "The granddaddy of wrestling pay-per-view events has created..." BBC, titled "Welsh wrestler Mason Ryan is a stateside hit", "... has slammed and bellowed his way through the wrestling ranks in just over three years. He was taken under the wing of the late Welsh wrestling legend and promoter Orig Williams ..." starship.paint ~ regal 08:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
- I'd also like to add on that reliable sources reflect that (wrestling) is a suitable shortening of (professional wrestling). Associated Press: "Once billed as "Hollywood" Hulk Hogan, wrestling's marquee star has a scaled down title at 60." Reuters: "The granddaddy of wrestling pay-per-view events has created..." BBC, titled "Welsh wrestler Mason Ryan is a stateside hit", "... has slammed and bellowed his way through the wrestling ranks in just over three years. He was taken under the wing of the late Welsh wrestling legend and promoter Orig Williams ..." starship.paint ~ regal 08:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose all ✍♪ 16:55, 3 October 2014 (UTC))]
- Blading (professional wrestling) (as article definition): "In professional wrestling, blading is the practice of intentionally cutting oneself to provoke bleeding." It has more in common with self harm than combat sport.
- Botch (professional wrestling) (as article definition): "To botch in professional wrestling means to attempt a scripted move or spoken line that does not come out as it was originally planned due to a mistake, miscalculation, or a slip-up." Combative sport does not legally have scripted moves.
- Cruiserweight (professional wrestling) (as article definition): "In professional wrestling, a cruiserweight is a wrestler weighing 220 lb (100 kg) and less, sometimes 215." This is not weight division that applies to all of wrestling. It applies to professional wrestling and any possibility of confusion should be avoided.
- Face (professional wrestling) (as article definition): "In professional wrestling, a face or babyface is a heroic or a "good guy" wrestler, booked (scripted) by the promotion to be cheered by fans." The presence of a perceived "good guy" or "bad guy" is and should be regarded as an irrelevance in professional sport.
- Feud (professional wrestling) (as article definition): "In professional wrestling, a feud is a staged rivalry between multiple wrestlers or groups of wrestlers. They are integrated into ongoing storylines, particularly in events which are televised." Combat sport does not have planned storylines.
- Heat (professional wrestling) (as article definition): "In professional wrestling, heat refers to both crowd reaction and real-life animosity between those involved in the professional wrestling business." Professional wrestling does not need reality to be respected and yet this is a rare example of reality which, none-the-less, is present within the specific world of professional wrestling.
- Heel (professional wrestling) (as article definition): "In professional wrestling, a heel (also known as a rudo in lucha libre) is a wrestler who is villainous or a "bad guy", who is booked (scripted) by the promotion to be in the position of being an antagonist." Where someone is regarded as a hero or villain is an irrelevance in combat sport. This terminology is common to professional wrestling.
- Job (professional wrestling) (as article definition): "In professional wrestling slang, the term job describes a losing performance in a wrestling match. It is derived from the euphemism "doing one's job", which was employed to protect kayfabe. The term can be used a number of ways. When a wrestler is booked to lose a match it is described as "a job." The act itself is described with the verb jobbing, while the act of booking (rather than being booked) to job is called jobbing out." The aim in competitive sport is to win. The "job" is not to lose. In competitive sport that is defined as cheating.
- Cutter (professional wrestling) (as article definition): "In professional wrestling, a cutter is a three-quarter facelock front face bulldog manoever ... originally used by Johnny Ace, who called it the Ace Crusher...." This is terminology specific to Professional wrestling.
- DDT (professional wrestling) (as article definition): "In professional wrestling a DDT is any move in which the wrestler has the opponent in a front facelock/inverted headlock, and falls down or backwards to drive the opponent's head into the mat." No doubt this
ismay be a choreographed marvel with terminology exclusive to professional wrestling. - Piledriver (professional wrestling) (as article definition): "A piledriver is a professional wrestling driver move in which the wrestler grabs his opponent, turns him upside-down, and drops into a sitting or kneeling position, driving the opponent head-first into the mat." As spectacular as this move undoubtedly is, it has nothing to do with competitive sport. Grappling type activities are more like chess played by constantly alert and striking snakes. This is cranium bashing gymnastics.
- Stunner (professional wrestling) (as article definition): "A stunner is a common term in professional wrestling referring to the seated three-quarter facelock jawbreaker maneuver." Wrestling is not defined by smacking, stunning or hitting.
- New Japan Pro Wrestling (NJPW) and Pro Wrestling Noah (Noah), in response to the March 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami." Respect to professional wrestling for staging such an indisputably positive event such as this.
- professional wrestling promotionthat is smaller than a major televised promotion." Its a professional wrestling thing.
- professional wrestling promotion..." .
- professional wrestling promotion" .
- Kingdom (professional wrestling) (as article definition): "Kingdom, was a professional wrestling company in Japan..." .
- Mass Transit incident (professional wrestling) (as article definition): "The "Mass Transit Incident" was an infamous event in professional wrestling that occurred at an Extreme Championship Wrestling (ECW) house show ..." A fantastic spectacle but not of real combat.
- New Japan Pro Wrestling(NJPW) .." .
- XWA (professional wrestling) (as article definition): "XWA is a British professional wrestling promotion, based in the English north west seaside town of Morecambe, Lancashire, dealing primarily in the professional wrestling industry." Two links are provided to "Professional wrestling" in one beautifully honest sentence.
- There is definitely art involved in the industry self-designated as "Professional wrestling". It does not exist amongst the spheres of competitive sport.
- ✍♪ 16:07, 2 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Note: To consider the articles above to be representative of wrestling is an utter failure of ✍♪ 06:54, 3 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Note: To consider the articles above to be representative of wrestling is an utter failure of
- Support all Here we go again. The consensus recently established on ]
- Support all Since these things don't apply to other forms of wrestling (as GregKaye detailed), there won't be similarly named articles, so no need to get so precise and mul-ti-syl-lab-ic. In the entire spectrum of wrestling, from freestyle to Mongolian to thumb, there's only one that allows piledrivers or blading. Just like of all the Bob Smiths on Wikipedia, there's only one doctor. We call him Bob Smith (doctor), not Bob Smith (medical doctor). InedibleHulk (talk) 22:49, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- Yes but ✍♪ 06:12, 3 October 2014 (UTC)]
- And professional wrestling is a subtopic of wrestling. Since no other subtopic has a cruiserweight division, no disambiguation is needed, just like Bob. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:38, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
- Yes but
- Comment A DDT is not necessarily a "choreographed marvel". At UFC 178, Cat Zingano hit two of them on Amanda Nunes. She also attempted a Kurt Angle-style ankle lock. Both of these moves are very rare in MMA, however, at least for now. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:05, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
- Fair comment about the necessarily. Pro Wrestling DDT The aim is clearly to simulate maximum violence with minimum actual effect. Its not a facet of any grappling type of ✍♪ 06:43, 3 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Fair comment about the necessarily. Pro Wrestling DDT The aim is clearly to simulate maximum violence with minimum actual effect. Its not a facet of any grappling type of
- Oppose the main article is called professional wrestling, so the disambiguator should use the same. If you want a shorter title, we can use "pro-wrestling" -- 65.94.171.225 (talk) 07:03, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
- How do you explain Bob Smith (doctor) then, instead of Bob Smith (medical doctor) for the article Doctor of Medicine or Bob Smith (physician) for the article physician? Simplicity in disambiguations are encouraged. starship.paint ~ regal 08:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
- WP:WAX; and it should be "medical doctor". Even in popular culture, "doctor" is frequently not a medical doctor. -- 65.94.171.225 (talk) 09:43, 3 October 2014 (UTC)]
- WP:CONCISE. The only way Bob Smith (medical doctor) would a better disambigulator than Bob Smith (doctor) is if a Bob Smith (plastic surgeon) or Bob Smith (dentist) had a higher level of infamy as a doctor than he did. If there was a Blading (amateur wrestling) then I would support that Blading (professional wrestling) would be a better disambigulator, but we made sure no such articles existed before proposing these moves.LM2000 (talk) 15:11, 3 October 2014 (UTC)]
- How do you explain Bob Smith (doctor) then, instead of Bob Smith (medical doctor) for the article Doctor of Medicine or Bob Smith (physician) for the article physician? Simplicity in disambiguations are encouraged. starship.paint ~ regal 08:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
- Move to " (pro wrestling)" per 65.94.171.225 (without the improper hyphen). It is important to not confuse readers into thinking these are wrestling sport terms vs. "professional wrestling" entertainment terms (a disambiguation that introduces another ambiguity is an abject failure at disambiguation). But "(professional wrestling)" is, arguably, unnecessarily long. Pro wrestler articles can use "(pro wrestler)". This is important on disambig pages, because someone might know they're looking for either an athlete or an entertainer, but not more specifically, and "(wrestler)" will confuse half of them. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 08:41, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
- Blading (wrestling) will not be able to find it because it is not called Blading (professional wrestling)? This is not possible unless blading occurs in other forms of wrestling, which I challenge you to provide evidence of. starship.paint ~ regal 08:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)]
- ✍♪ 17:00, 3 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Gregkaye - that's right. But you didn't quote the whole sentence. "The title indicates what the article is about and distinguishes it from other articles". Blading (wrestling) is about blading in wrestling. The article title doesn't describe which form of wrestling, but the article text does, while (wrestling) distinguishes enough. Let me remind you that 1) reliable sources (BBC etc) do use "wrestling" as a short form for "professional wrestling" as I have shown above and 2) there is no apparently other blading in any other kind of wrestling, be it sumo wrestling or Greco-Roman wrestling to disambiguate from. starship.paint ~ regal 06:54, 4 October 2014 (UTC)]
- WP:ATfor all the reasons mentioned. Short forms of terms are sometimes, potentially erroneously used by news organisations as shorthand. This may happen within a context in which a general picture of the topic may be established in the context of a programme or in descriptive article and in regard to an analysis of a topic or of an event.
- A Wikipedia article title "✍♪
- I have to concur with Gregkaye on this; the fact that these aren't wrestling terms but pro wrestling terms means they should be identified as such. What's happening here is (see previous examples used) Starship.paint is misinterpreting WP:AT as suggesting that "Bob Smith (doctor)" is an okay disambiguation when it isn't, making the case that the shortest possible disambiguation is the most preferable. But User:Born2cycle/Concision razor was userspaced at WP:MD for a reason: It doesn't actually represent consensus. "Bob Smith (doctor)" is not a good disambiguation at all, because it simply introduces another ambiguity, and such an article should be at "Bob Smith (medical doctor)", "Bob Smith (physician)", "Bob Smith (oncologist)", "Bob Smith (economist)", or something otherwise more specific than just "(doctor)"; any number of Bob Smiths have a doctorate. It's a case, however, with no bearing here. The extant RM is more like having a performer, with no doctorate of any kind, who calls himself "Doctor Bob Smith" in a sideshow act, and you want to disambiguate him as "Bob Smith (doctor)"! Professional wrestling is not actually wrestling. "Blading (wrestling)" is basically a {{em|user-hateful)) vs. user-friendly article title, as it directly misleads, in the same way that "Bob Smith (doctor)" would if Bob Smith called himself a doctor but wasn't. This is also distinguishable from cases like "Bob Smith (hockey)" being used as shorthand for "Bob Smith (ice hockey)", because ice hockey is an actual sport that is a variant of hockey more generally. This doesn't apply to the unfortunately-named professional wrestling and wrestling. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)]
- If pro wrestling isn't a variant of wrestling, why is it Section 8 in the wrestling article? And why does that section appear first on the Google result? InedibleHulk (talk) 23:56, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
- I have to concur with Gregkaye on this; the fact that these aren't wrestling terms but pro wrestling terms means they should be identified as such. What's happening here is (see previous examples used) Starship.paint is misinterpreting
- Starship.paint Returning to your point
"reliable sources like AP, Reuters and BBC have seen fit to use (wrestling) as a short form of (professional wrestling)"
Most sources that do that are are doing so in contexts where the reader already knows that professional wrestling, the entertainment, not sport wrestling is meant, and most of these sources do not regularly do it; you're citing odd-ball cases of what amounts to editorial error as if it were a new worldwide rule. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
- Starship.paint Returning to your point
- 65.94.171.225, @SMcCandlish: Any thoughts on responses to the following? Raw search data is presented which does not differentiate between direct coverage of the subject and spin off subject in relation to video games etc.
- "pro wrestling" gets "About 14,700,000 results"
- "professional wrestling" gets "About 1,150,000 results"
- site:en.wikipedia.org/ "Professional wrestling" gets "About 17,500 results"
- site:en.wikipedia.org/ "Pro wrestling" gets "About 9,140 results"
- There is a potential discrepency here which raises the question as to how policy should be best applied.
- In Wikipedia the sub topic of ✍♪ 08:48, 6 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Yeah, it looks like WP's articles here are bucking a 12.78 to 1 real-world preferences for the phrase "pro wrestling". I think this is strong evidence all the professional wresting articles disambiguated with "(wrestling)" and "(wrestler)" need to be moved to "(pro wresting)" and "(pro wrestler)", respectively.
Also, WP:CONSISTENCY is the weakest, last-resort item in
WP:PRECISE. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Yeah, it looks like WP's articles here are bucking a 12.78 to 1 real-world preferences for the phrase "pro wrestling". I think this is strong evidence all the professional wresting articles disambiguated with "(wrestling)" and "(wrestler)" need to be moved to "(pro wresting)" and "(pro wrestler)", respectively.
- 65.94.171.225, @SMcCandlish: Any thoughts on responses to the following? Raw search data is presented which does not differentiate between direct coverage of the subject and spin off subject in relation to video games etc.
- Oppose all, simplifying the disambiguator to just "wrestling" has the potential to confuse a lot of people (most of all in cases like Cruiserweight etc.). Despite the aforementioned examples, to most people, myself (a professional wrestling fan) included, "wrestling" always refers to the sport one and not the non-sport performance art. It's not just about being concise, it's also about not misleading people. リボン・サルミネン (Ribbon Salminen) (talk) 16:20, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- If "wrestling" and "wrestler" always refer to the sport, how do you explain the Google results for each term, verbatim? The sole result I get for the sport with "wrestling" is this one. For "wrestler", I get two news stories about amateurs, but mostly about the well-known film which is not called The Professional Wrestler. Top results for both is WWE.com. Pretty clearly a common term for phony baloney. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:30, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
- On the other hand, Ribbon Salminen, I really think Cruiserweight might be the exception than the rule here, in terms of confusion. Yes, other forms of wrestling have weight classes. However, how are the other terms confusing? They would only be confusing if there are heels, faces, Kingdoms in other forms of wrestling. starship.paint ~ regal 03:10, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
- You're just not getting it; several other editors are explaining to you in detail that it's confusing because the actual sport of wrestling doesn't have these things, and the article titles you propose misleadingly suggest they do. Repeating the exact opposite like a mantra isn't an argument. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose all per Ribbon. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 16:28, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
- Support all- The consensus has been established in Conciseness is far more important than precision in an article title.Feedback 19:24, 4 October 2014 (UTC)]
- My favourite concise article title is ✍♪ 21:03, 4 October 2014 (UTC)]
- You brought up a good example. The only reason why it's not at X (album) is because many other music albums that are called X exist, including X (Def Leppard album) and X (Chris Brown album). Notice that for music albums which don't share the same name as other albums are at Parachutes (album) or Songs of Innocence (album) instead of the more precise Parachutes (Coldplay music album) and Songs of Innocence (U2 music album). After all, we do know that multiple kinds of albums exist, including stamp albums, comic albums etc. However, there are no other albums of that name to disambiguate from. Same goes for blading. There's no other blading in any other form of wrestling to disambiguate from. starship.paint ~ regal 03:10, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you and quite right.
- An album is an album according to the stated definition of "album."
- Professional wrestling is not wrestling according to the stated definition of "wrestling".
- ✍♪ 23:09, 5 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Yep. See above examples re: "Bob Smith (doctor)". A performer (perhaps a pro wrestler!) who went by "Doctor Bob Smith" but did not have a doctorate would never be disambiguated here as "Bob Smith (doctor)". — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
- You brought up a good example. The only reason why it's not at X (album) is because many other music albums that are called X exist, including X (Def Leppard album) and X (Chris Brown album). Notice that for music albums which don't share the same name as other albums are at Parachutes (album) or Songs of Innocence (album) instead of the more precise Parachutes (Coldplay music album) and Songs of Innocence (U2 music album). After all, we do know that multiple kinds of albums exist, including stamp albums, comic albums etc. However, there are no other albums of that name to disambiguate from. Same goes for blading. There's no other blading in any other form of wrestling to disambiguate from. starship.paint ~ regal 03:10, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
- @WP:AT, not just on subjective opinions about the category of the articles) indicate an unresolved controversy, so the previous RM clearly did not actually establish consensus. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)]
- My favourite concise article title is
- Support all- with the caveat; Cruiserweight was submitted as having a possible usage in Amateur Wrestling. So as with all disambiguation I want to encourage the most WP:CONCISE phrase. When someone writes an amateur related Cruiserweight article then we will need to have one Cruiserweight (professional wrestling) and one Cruiserweight (amateur wrestling) article with both having a listing on the Cruiserweight (disambiguation), which might also then be the default page. Boxing also has the weight class, MMA uses it and there is even a band by that name. We can still debate (professional wrestling) vs the shorter (pro wrestling) which I am not adverse to, though it deviates from the common specificity used in existing articles, like the ones we are debating now. The definition of disambiguation is to extend specificity in order to identify multiple identically named items. To the example above, there are no less than 17 musical albums named X, plus a christian compilation, listed on wikipedia. It needs the specificity. There are some identically named athletes that play sport, the same position, where we have had to go to the birth year. I wrote an article where there were two identically named athletes were in the same Olympic final race. We disambiguated to the country they represented. So when amateur wrestling starts having people blade, do DDTs or even feud, then we need the longer disambiguator and not until then. Trackinfo (talk) 04:10, 5 October 2014 (UTC)]
- A separate case can be made for cruiserweight, on the amateur wrestling facts in that particular case, in a later RM after this one fails. It still seems like a weak case; "a possible usage" sounds like WP:CRYSTAL to me, and it's unlikley that a possible usage as an amateur wrestling term is notable. If it is, it may need to be a separate article unless the definition is the same in both the performance art and the sport, which seems rather unlikely. This is actually a really good example of why these kinds of articles cannot be disambiguated with "(wrestling)"; after a certain few basic, any remaining similarity between the two fields is coincidental at best, misleading at worst. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Quite the contrary. Cruiserweight might be one lone exception. Andrewa below hit the nail on the head with WP:NCPDAB. We should not take a wholesale approach to a single instance exception. IF Cruiserweight (amateur wrestling) is ever created, or Blading (amateur wrestling) is ever created, then we need the exception. So far, there is no reason to anticipate either. Trackinfo (talk) 17:06, 6 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Quite the contrary. Cruiserweight might be one lone exception. Andrewa below hit the nail on the head with
- A separate case can be made for cruiserweight, on the amateur wrestling facts in that particular case, in a later RM after this one fails. It still seems like a weak case; "a possible usage" sounds like
- Weak support for move, or prefer pro wrestling to professional wrestling but let's stop wasting time on this, what we're looking for is the best of a poor lot of alternatives for some articles that aren't going to save the world or even improve it. I think the rules do say that we should use the more concise disambiguator. If this were andrewpedia, I'd say come off it, to call these guys wrestlers is an insult to every genuine athlete in the world, and professional wrestler is even worse. In andrewpedia we'd disambiguate (pretend wrestler) I think. Now that might improve the world! But here we're liberal... MAD magazine once described a liberal as one who tries to see the other guy's point of view while being mugged. Not too far wrong... Andrewa (talk) 11:32, 5 October 2014 (UTC)]
- ✍♪ 07:13, 6 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Yeah, it's not that pro wrestling is a genuine attempt to fool people into thinking real wrestling is going on. It's campy theatre. I agree it's unfortunate that the term for it is "professional wrestling" or "pro wrestling" in shorter form, but it is. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
- I think it once was a genuine attempt to fool people into thinking real wrestling is going on, and I'm embarrassed to say that I think many Australians of my youth were taken in, particularly but not only those of my generation. I can vividly remember my mother's glee (she was never taken in) when one of her closest friends was by special invitation part of the small audience for the rehearsal of a wrestling match! That would have been in the 1960s. This seems consistent with our current [1] article on WWE which reads in part WWE first acknowledged this publicly in 1981, breaking the gentlemen's agreement that previously existed among promoters, I think that the facade was already pretty much demolished by then anyway, and that our coverage is similar elsewhere regarding the dates of the "outing" of sports entertainment worldwide. It would be good to have references as to just what the perception was worldwide and how (and even whether) it changed during the second half of the 20th century. Andrewa (talk) 16:07, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
- The claim that the proposed moves are dishonest appears to me to fail WP:NCPDAB seems to be the relevant convention, and seems to favour the shorter and simpler wrestler. At the very least, and as the above discussion shows, it's not simply a matter of wrestler being inaccurate and professional wrestler escaping this problem, as you seem to be claiming. Andrewa (talk) 16:11, 6 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Andrewa, "Professional / Pro wrestling" is a well know spectical as experienced in a variety of media including TV and games. People who have seen pro wrestling videos will be well aware of the kind of parameters involved and people that have seen the games will, at the very least, have been able to see the kind of visual images involved. Anyone that has taken the time to watch events such as the Olympics and these wrestling events will similarly have had the chance to witness the competitive sport that is wrestling. The two activities are not the same.
- This does not mean that I can't imagine true pro wrestling fans that are convinced of the validity of their views to the point that they feel justified to forcefully present their claims. This changes nothing. The two activities retain their core differences and the act of claiming that the article content presented above is representative of "wrestling" remains dishonest. Wrestling is one thing and pro wrestling is another.
- Even readers with a limited knowledge of English will have the chance to see the difference. For a start they will have been given article titles that contain a phrase such as "(pro wrestling)". On this basis they may be better enabled to recognise the significance of a blue linked ✍♪ 20:07, 6 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Agree with most of this but it misses the point. The proposed moves are not dishonest and inaccurate and roundly fail WP:AT at all, that statement falls foul of several policies and should be retracted.
- And there's still confusion as in normal English Sumo wrestlers and several other varieties of genuine sportspeople are both professional sportspeople and wrestlers, and their sport and profession is wrestling, although they may not be Professional wrestlers (and note that the p in our current disambiguators is not capitalised). All kidding aside, there's an unfortunate ambiguity there. Andrewa (talk) 03:07, 7 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Dolgorsürengiin Sumiyaabazar), but that doesn't mean they don't also wrestle professionally. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:55, 7 October 2014 (UTC)]
- One thing that I have long regarded to have been a positive is the actual move in name of "WWE" (World Wrestling Federation) named in 1998. Now I find that the only reason for the name change was that the World Wide Fund for Nature (the "WWF" since 1961) sued the owners of "World Wrestling Federation" for unfair trade practices. I started writing this in an attempt at positive praise, but that was not to be.
- The name change was a positive and honest move especially when regarded in context. The natural world, as represented by the World Wrestling Entertainment.
- I regard the actual use of "wrestling" in reference to "professional wrestling", unless it is very well qualified, to be a form of ✍♪ 07:48, 7 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Again, agree with most of this. Actually I find the term pro wrestling far less objectionable, even a bit funny, owing to other meanings of the term pro. (;-> But then I'm not a wrestler myself. I do have a good friend who has at various times been a champion wrestler and an apprentice chef and is a very competent drummer. It is quite awesome to see him combine the various attainments these involve to dice a potato. Anyway, I'll ask him. Andrewa (talk) 10:55, 7 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Wow, a fearsome face off with a (sorry) underground opponent. But another example of ✍♪ 12:11, 8 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Love the phrasing! I'll see whether my friend wishes to comment and/or be quoted further.
- Where does your views on "pro wrestling" place you in terms of support/oppose/suggest? So far, it's a pick between almost equally bad titles, but I'd prefer pro wrestling, followed by just wrestling, followed by professional wrestling. The current titles are the worst of an all-bad bunch. But not by very much.
- See http://unimpedia.pbworks.com/w/page/87095968/pro%20wrestling for a less inhibited expression of this. Andrewa (talk) 17:29, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- That's an amazing page. The title definitely builds. I still don't doubt that some professionals/pros could wrestle if they needed to or, more to the point, that they could carry off a fight. Professional wrestling is more about hitting and, no doubt, many could hit hard. It has more in common with mixed martial arts as in competitions such as Ultimate fighter. That would be the comparative match to watch.
- I wouldn't want to take one on in the ring, except that under the no rules of sports entertainment and in the interests of surviving I'd feel justified in bringing the bren gun that I once learned to fire... that might even things up a little. Not sure even about a real wrestler, despite the bluster on the Unimpedia page... years ago I did some karate training. One of the medium-graded guys (green belt, one below brown, then black) in the dojo got attacked on the way to class with a sharpened screwdriver and almost died. His comment was "if he'd thrown a decent punch I'd have clobbered him, but he didn't know the first thing about fighting and it really threw me off!" Similarly, at least some real wrestlers would not be effective at fighting dirty I suspect, their training would be a liability. Andrewa (talk) 14:45, 11 October 2014 (UTC)]
- I wouldn't want to take one on in the ring, except that under the no rules of sports entertainment and in the interests of surviving I'd feel justified in bringing the
- Given that terms like martial arts and fighting have not been used and that the term "wrestling" is associated with competitive sport I still find that the qualifier "professional" provided distinction from the basic term. In gregpedia "fight entertainment" might have been the term to use though "entertainment wrestling" could have been considered. ✍♪ 13:43, 11 October 2014 (UTC)]
- That's an amazing page. The title definitely builds. I still don't doubt that some professionals/pros could wrestle if they needed to or, more to the point, that they could carry off a fight. Professional wrestling is more about hitting and, no doubt, many could hit hard. It has more in common with mixed martial arts as in competitions such as Ultimate fighter. That would be the comparative match to watch.
- Wow, a fearsome face off with a (sorry) underground opponent. But another example of
- Again, agree with most of this. Actually I find the term
- Yeah, it's not that pro wrestling is a genuine attempt to fool people into thinking real wrestling is going on. It's campy theatre. I agree it's unfortunate that the term for it is "professional wrestling" or "pro wrestling" in shorter form, but it is. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose all. "Professional wrestling" is about as related to the classical and historical subject of Wrestling as any "professional" version of a sport would be, if it involved scripted storylines, costumes, and themes, and encouraged unsportsmanlike conduct ignored by biased and inattentive referees. We should therefore be careful to title these articles in a way that avoids misrepresenting them as relating to the primary topic of Wrestling (see Wikipedia:Consistency in article titles#Consistent application of primary topic determinations). bd2412 T 14:58, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- Agree that to title articles associated with so-called professional wrestling as wrestling is misrepresenting them..., but IMO to use the term professional wrestling is even worse, hence my weak support for the moves. Is there a better term? As I have said, I would prefer pro wrestling, but it may be that the association of the term pro with other insincere activities is stronger in Australia than among English speakers generally. Pretend wrestling was not really a serious suggestion, just an attempt to stimulate lateral thinking, it is at least accurate! Note that the rules for disambiguators are slightly different to those for article titles, although consistency between article titles and disambiguators is also a factor. Andrewa (talk) 17:29, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- Agree with statement by ✍♪ 05:23, 10 October 2014 (UTC)]
- We are back to the same argument where a group of people are trying to place the difference between amateur wrestling and professional wrestling (or sumo for that matter) within the common disambiguator. That is inserting a WP:POINT into wikipedia's voice. We should not do that. I oppose such a move. Trackinfo (talk) 06:46, 10 October 2014 (UTC)]
- That's true, but the content in general(despite WP:AT being listed as a content policy). There are good reasons for this, one being that we can't put inline references on an article title (that's a software limitation at present) to indicate exactly whose POV it might represent.
- If we have a consensus that the current titles are grossly misleading, then that would be a valid reason for a move, and we do seem to have a consensus for that. But we don't have consensus that this matters (which surprises me, but there you are), and far more important, no good suggestions for a better disambiguator. It's a matter of picking the best of a rather pathetic bunch, which (considering the subject matter) has a pythonesque logic and which I find very amusing. And maybe it doesn't matter a lot anyway. Andrewa (talk) 10:08, 10 October 2014 (UTC)]
- That's true, but the
- We are back to the same argument where a group of people are trying to place the difference between amateur wrestling and professional wrestling (or sumo for that matter) within the common disambiguator. That is inserting a
- Agree with statement by
- Agree that to title articles associated with so-called professional wrestling as wrestling is misrepresenting them..., but IMO to use the term professional wrestling is even worse, hence my weak support for the moves. Is there a better term? As I have said, I would prefer pro wrestling, but it may be that the association of the term pro with other insincere activities is stronger in Australia than among English speakers generally. Pretend wrestling was not really a serious suggestion, just an attempt to stimulate lateral thinking, it is at least accurate! Note that the rules for disambiguators are slightly different to those for article titles, although consistency between article titles and disambiguators is also a factor. Andrewa (talk) 17:29, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:TITLECHANGES (no, not that title-change...) which states "If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed." Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 09:06, 11 October 2014 (UTC)]
Do we still talking about this? It's simple, we the articles talk about PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING (a entertainment). Wrestling is the sport, amateur wrestling is the sport, pro wrestling is the entertainment. We don't use Tomb Raider (2013 game), because it's a VIDEO game. The word wrestling is incorrect and I think "it's too short" isn't a reason. Even, PWInsider and PWTorch described themselfs as pro wrestling websites. (https://www.facebook.com/PWInsider and http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/Contact_Us_23/article_57658.shtml#.VDqEfvl_s40) --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:35, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Support. The term "professional wrestling" implies a form of wrestling. So all the objections to the use of "wrestling" as a disambiguator also apply to "professional wrestling." That being the case, the shorter disambiguator is preferable. You can always add information by making a title longer. But information about the subject belongs in the article, not the title. The purpose of disambiguation is to allow the reader to choose among several similarly named articles, not to fully describe the content. Of course this subject can be referred to by the unmodified word "wrestling." When I Bing "wrestling," the top three sites that come up are WrestlingInc.com, WWE, and ProWrestling.com. WWE is "World Wrestling Entertainment, Inc." not World Professional Wrestling anything. Claimsworth (talk) 23:27, 12 October 2014 (UTC)(sock)
- Support all but cruiserweight (professional wrestling). Disambiguators only have to be precise enough to effectively disambiguate their topic. For instance, "(state)" is not enough to distinguish Georgia, so it's Georgia (U.S. state). But it is enough to distinguish Washington, so that's plain old Washington (state) Red Slash 04:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Discussion of alternative proposal
It would IMO be better to address the issue of the naming of the professional wrestling article rather than try to solve this here.
In particular, I wonder whether we could rename that article to wrestling (sports entertainment)?
- The article at sports entertainment currently [2] states that The World Wrestling Federation coined the term "sports entertainment" during the 1980s as a description for professional wrestling.
- The article at professional wrestling currently [3] leads off Professional wrestling (often shortened pro wrestling, or simply wrestling)... (my emphasis).
Assuming these two terms (that is, simply wrestling as a name for the topic of the article currently at professional wrestling, and sports entertainment for its genre) are both also attested in reliable sources, the article title wrestling (sports entertainment) seems ideal. It's both accurate and NPOV. Even if a redirect from professional wrestling remained, a hatnote to the DAB currently at Professional wrestling (disambiguation) would deal with any possible confusion.
We could then start the monumental task of renaming the many articles and categories that currently use the term professional wrestling or similar in a misleading fashion.
There doesn't seem to have been any discussion of any possible move at Talk:Professional wrestling, but that's surely the place to start. Wrestling (sports entertainment) currently redirects to professional wrestling and has an interesting edit history that is not significant in terms of our copyleft obligations.
Relisting to allow for discussion of this. Andrewa (talk) 19:15, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
- This suggestion is totally disregards objections to the proposed move from "Xx (professional wrestling)" titles. It may have been best treated separately. ✍♪ 21:06, 10 October 2014 (UTC)]
- No, it doesn't is totally disregards them at all. These are certainly relevant, but they're not the full story. And yes, if this suggestion were to be adopted, then there would be a strong case for renaming for example The Corporation (professional wrestling) to The Corporation (sports entertainment). What I'm trying to do is deal with the issues in a logical sequence, which doesn't appear to have been attempted before... or if it has, links to the previous discussion would be appreciated. Andrewa (talk) 22:06, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
- Andrewa, the idea of professional wrestling as "sports entertainment" is one heavily promoted by the American company WWE, which admittedly has virtually something close to a monopoly both in and out of the USA. Today, no other company can match WWE's penetration into international markets. However, I am skeptical whether the term "sports entertainment" is applied to wrestling from other companies like in Japan or in Mexico. Here an expert on wrestling seems to indicate that a Japanese company (NJPW) airing shows in the USA would deviate from "the Vince Russo/Stephanie McMahon era of presenting wrestling as farcical sports entertainment" currently endemic in the USA. This is a less reliable source, but a good description: The biggest difference is that NJPW is not really in the business of “sports entertainment,” at least as we know it here in America. NJPW calls itself “The King of Sports,” so they still consider themselves to be a professional wrestling organization.
- Having said all of that, I'd be wary of labelling the entire field of wrestling as sports entertainment just because WWE does it. starship.paint ~ regal 09:17, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
- Nobody is suggesting labelling the entire field of wrestling as sports entertainment, just those parts of wrestling that organise staged matches rather than genuine competitions, as far as we can determine this from reliable sources. And there's no suggestion as far as I know that NJPW matches are genuine contests, so far as I can see, so it is still sports entertainment whether they choose to call it that or not. Andrewa (talk) 11:07, 11 October 2014 (UTC)]
- It should be always kept in mind that this topic is the business of promoting a lucrative fantasy... and those making money out of this promotion include the journalists. We can't expect that they'll make it easy for us to sort out the accurate NPOV material. Truth is neither their mindset nor their business. But it should still be ours. Andrewa (talk) 11:14, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
- Nobody is suggesting labelling the entire field of wrestling as sports entertainment, just those parts of wrestling that organise staged matches rather than genuine competitions, as far as we can determine this from reliable sources. And there's no suggestion as far as I know that
- ✍♪ 11:58, 11 October 2014 (UTC)]
- I think Blading (sports entertainment) is the go. It seems to avoid all the problems. Interested in other suggestions. Even blading (pro wrestling) is in my opinion a little better than the current title, as pro wrestling has more of the feel of a compound noun (rather than a noun phrase) than the current disambiguator professional wrestling, so it's less misleading than the current title. But I think we can do better, and Blading (sports entertainment) seems to tick all the boxes. If it were to be the choice here, then I'd raise an RM to move professional wrestling to wrestling (sports entertainment}, and then I'd expect the discussion to get really heated. I could be wrong. Andrewa (talk) 14:23, 11 October 2014 (UTC)]
- I think Blading (sports entertainment) is the go. It seems to avoid all the problems. Interested in other suggestions. Even blading (pro wrestling) is in my opinion a little better than the current title, as pro wrestling has more of the feel of a
- I'm opposed to any additional move, especially one to (sports entertainment). Professional Wrestling is the genre's common name and it has been for decades. Sports Entertainment is something Vince McMahon labeled his product, though WWE continues to use both terms interchangeably. I think we're looking too far into things, Lugnuts may have a point with WP:TITLECHANGES. (professional wrestling) has been a fine disambigulator for years, if it's not broke we shouldn't be fixing it. I supported (wrestling) because it is more concise, but]
the majoritysome apparently prefer the additional precision that the full title offers, that's fine, but (sports entertainment) is a horse of a different color and less precise than either title debated above.LM2000 (talk) 01:44, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- I'm opposed to any additional move, especially one to (sports entertainment). Professional Wrestling is the genre's common name and it has been for decades. Sports Entertainment is something Vince McMahon labeled his product, though WWE continues to use both terms interchangeably. I think we're looking too far into things, Lugnuts may have a point with
- Oppose also based on WP:CONCISE we should eliminate professional until it becomes necessary. I'd accept status quo as far superior than to honor Vince McMahon's marketing terminology "sports entertainment" as being anything but a made up term. To quote Gordon Solie "The name on the marque is wrestling." Trackinfo (talk) 08:11, 12 October 2014 (UTC)]
- WP:TITLECHANGES is of course relevant, but only in that the proposed moves should be formally raised at Wikipedia:Requested moves in the normal manner, and discussed in due course, which is what I have always intended, it's commonsense. But I should have made that explicit, and thanks for pointing out this omission.
- And that seems to be the only relevance of WP:TITLECHANGES.
- To reject the term on the grounds that it's Vince McMahon's marketing terminology "sports entertainment" is POV. The question is, do reliable sources use the term? If they do, then it's no longer a made up term. (But if they don't then agree, we shouldn't use it either.) Andrewa (talk) 09:23, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- McMahon inventing the term is not POV, its fact. How many competing organizations have adopted "sports entertainment" or even "entertainment" into their names. Then compare that to how many organizations there are that use "wrestling" (most without including the word "professional") in their titles. We've been down this road before. Trackinfo (talk) 20:32, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- Agree that McMahon inventing the term is not POV. That's not what was suggested at all.
- The RM to which you link was to move a number of WWE wrestlers from (wrestler} to {professional wrestler}, and the moves did not proceed. Your point escapes me... there were people who objected to one or both disambiguators there, but this third option was not raised (partly because I hadn't then thought of it), so we haven't been down this road before at all.
- Agree that what these organisations choose to call themselves is a consideration. But it's not the only consideration, and considering that they are in the business of fantasy, certainly not the last word in this discussion. It's not as if we're discussing the titles of the articles on the organisations themselves... there's no suggestion for example that the article currently at Professional Girl Wrestling Association should be renamed, that's simply the name of the organisation. But just because the organisation is called that doesn't make it an association of female wrestlers... and of course, it's not. So what the actors it employs should be called is a different issue. Andrewa (talk) 11:51, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
- McMahon inventing the term is not POV, its fact. How many competing organizations have adopted "sports entertainment" or even "entertainment" into their names. Then compare that to how many organizations there are that use "wrestling" (most without including the word "professional") in their titles. We've been down this road before. Trackinfo (talk) 20:32, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- For such a move to happen, it would need the "sports entertainment" term to be as popular as "professional wrestling" to be used a substitute. Which means that most articles which mention "professional wrestling" should soon also mention "sports entertainment". I haven't seen reliable sources even describe non-American companies as having "sports entertainment". The term is certainly not as popular. starship.paint ~ regal 13:12, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
POVs
One question that must be asked is, does avoiding the common term professional wrestling in titles for articles on sports entertainment topics reflect a POV?
It seems to me that it doesn't, although at first sight it may appear to. On the other hand, the kayfabe of sports entertainment is very much a POV and worse. We must be very careful not to adopt it or to confuse it with reality, just as we are careful with Star Trek and other fictional universes not to describe fictional events as if they were real.
Describing sports entertainment as wrestling or professional wrestling is quite OK in the context of an article that makes it clear that these terms are being used within the fantasy. But in the title of an article that deals with, for example, a wrestling hold that only exists within this kayfabe universe, or a wrestling team whose exploits are similarly fictional, these terms should be avoided. This isn't POV, it's the reality of the situation.
Where a disambiguator is needed for such articles, the obvious one is sports entertainment. Interested in any better suggestions.
We don't refer to the character described in the
- Pluto only appeared in Disney. Can you guarantee the same about any wrestler staying in a particular brand (WWE)? Across the entire genre? Impossible. Wrestling is the common denominator. Trackinfo (talk) 08:16, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- Nop. PROFESSIONAL wrestling is the common denominator. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- More to the point, "wrestling" is an inadequate descriptor in relation to "professional wrestling". Relevant denominators are found in the categories section of ✍♪ 15:21, 12 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Professional wrestling is professional wrestling. Face is a word used in professional wrestling, so Face (professional wrestling) is the best name. The articles talk about subjets in professional wrestling, not the entire world of sports entertainment nor amateur wrestling. Professional wrestling (even using the word "wrestling") is the correct term. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:34, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- But professional wrestling is not professional wrestling. It's a spectacle that pretends to be professional wrestling, and is labelled that in order to original research. So in either case we simply report what reliable sources say on the matter. That's what we're here to do, no less and no more.
- The upshot of all this is that while professional wrestling is an acceptable disambiguator (and particularly as we have a relevant article by that name), it may not be the best disambiguator, and that's the point being discussed in this particular RM. Andrewa (talk) 19:36, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- Not, you're wrong. Professional wrestling is the sport entertainment, but it doesn't mean (real) Wrestling in a professional level. Professional is the word to separate fake (professional wrestling) from real (amateur wrestling or wrestling). Can you show a source where professional wrestling is a sport? No, because "professional wrestling" is a word used in the sport entertainment. For real sport, we have free-style wrestling, amateur wrestling, greco-roman wrestling... . Also, we never mention pro wrestling in articles like Wrestling at the Summer Olympics or Amateur wrestling. Pro wrestling is SE, Amateur wrestling (and subsections like free style wrestling) is sport, but you'll never find Pro Wrestling as sport. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 20:23, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- Can you show a source where professional wrestling is a sport? Yes, very easily. The page heading of http://cauliflowerculture.com/sumo/ is Sumo Professional Wrestling Featured by Cauli Sports (my emphasis). No, because "professional wrestling" is a word used in the sport entertainment. Well, the example I gave was on the first line of the first page of 301,000 ghits [4] so may I ask what searches (if any) you made? Certainly the term professional wrestling is used as you suggest, but the point is, it has other meanings as well. And it's a very important point. Andrewa (talk) 03:13, 13 October 2014 (UTC)]
- Not that I'm involved in this discussion, but the site you cite seems to have ripped off our own page on Sumo in order to write that page. Dekimasuよ!
- Well spotted and I didn't see that, but so? While Wikipedia does not and must not tryto change the English language, inevitably we do have an affect on English usage, particularly on the WWW. Our guidelines are simply based on what people do say and how they say it. Where they learned to say it that way is irrelevant, and it must be so, because while in this case we can guess where they got the phrase, that's not generally true.
- It's probably not the best source for other reasons, but it and the other 300,000+ ghits show how wide of the mark the preceding comment was. Andrewa (talk) 02:31, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
- I'd trust Vince McMahon to give me a title shot before I trust Google to give me actual numbers. With the same query you used, I get "about 44,000 results". Of these alleged results, Google shows me 849. Of these 849, I'm not sure how many are duplicates, but I am sure a lot of them are crap. Anyway, here's result 847: The oldest filmed wrestling match. Enjoy. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:21, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, you'd be crazy to give the figures too much weight. I just retried it and got 729,000 results. But any of these results expose the challenge Can you show a source where professional wrestling is a sport? to be leading with one's chin. It's pure bluster, no possible rationale or justification... a bit like a WWE scenario, actually. Andrewa (talk) 18:26, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
- I'd trust Vince McMahon to give me a title shot before I trust Google to give me actual numbers. With the same query you used, I get "about 44,000 results". Of these alleged results, Google shows me 849. Of these 849, I'm not sure how many are duplicates, but I am sure a lot of them are crap. Anyway, here's result 847: The oldest filmed wrestling match. Enjoy. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:21, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
- Well spotted and I didn't see that, but so? While Wikipedia does not and must not
- Not that I'm involved in this discussion, but the site you cite seems to have ripped off our own page on Sumo in order to write that page. Dekimasuよ!
- Can you show a source where professional wrestling is a sport? Yes, very easily. The page heading of http://cauliflowerculture.com/sumo/ is Sumo Professional Wrestling Featured by Cauli Sports (my emphasis). No, because "professional wrestling" is a word used in the sport entertainment. Well, the example I gave was on the first line of the first page of 301,000
- Not, you're wrong. Professional wrestling is the sport entertainment, but it doesn't mean (real) Wrestling in a professional level. Professional is the word to separate fake (professional wrestling) from real (amateur wrestling or wrestling). Can you show a source where professional wrestling is a sport? No, because "professional wrestling" is a word used in the sport entertainment. For real sport, we have free-style wrestling, amateur wrestling, greco-roman wrestling... . Also, we never mention pro wrestling in articles like Wrestling at the Summer Olympics or Amateur wrestling. Pro wrestling is SE, Amateur wrestling (and subsections like free style wrestling) is sport, but you'll never find Pro Wrestling as sport. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 20:23, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- But professional wrestling is not professional wrestling. It's a spectacle that pretends to be professional wrestling, and is labelled that in order to
- Professional wrestling is professional wrestling. Face is a word used in professional wrestling, so Face (professional wrestling) is the best name. The articles talk about subjets in professional wrestling, not the entire world of sports entertainment nor amateur wrestling. Professional wrestling (even using the word "wrestling") is the correct term. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:34, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- More to the point, "wrestling" is an inadequate descriptor in relation to "professional wrestling". Relevant denominators are found in the categories section of
- Nop. PROFESSIONAL wrestling is the common denominator. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- No, I can't guarantee the same about any wrestler staying in a particular brand (WWE), nor is there any need to. Sports entertainment is a type of spectacle which presents an ostensibly competitive event using a high level of theatrical flourish and extravagant presentation, with the purpose of entertaining an audience. Unlike typical athletics and games, which are conducted for competition, sportsmanship, exercise or personal recreation, the primary product of sports entertainment is performance for an audience's benefit, thus they are never practiced privately. Commonly, but not in all cases, the outcomes are predetermined; as this is an open secret, it is not considered to be match fixing. Or that's what our article currently [5]] says. No mention of restricting the term to WWE events etc.. Andrewa (talk) 09:12, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
"Regular bladers"
Is this list necessary? And if so, who or what decides who should or should not be on this list? For example, I'd expect to see Bret Hart or Davey Boy Smith (especially from their pre-WWF years) or Kurt Angle (especially in TNA) on this list before Randy Orton, who has spent much of his career in the PG-14 era. 109.149.69.189 (talk) 15:23, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
No. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.230.105.17 (talk) 21:10, 25 October 2020 (UTC)