Talk:Carloman II

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Is there any reason not to move this page to Carloman II? Who's the other Carloman II that necessitates a dab, esp. one as awkward as this? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 06:59, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Consistency with the other 'French' kings. Also, Carloman I, King of the Franks is sometimes called Carloman II (when Carloman brother of Pippin the Short is called Carloman I), and the possibly ordinal nature of Carloman of Bavaria is, thanks to the inconsistent manner in which the Carolingians are enumerated, dubious. Michael Sanders 13:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can you cite a source for that enumeration of Carlomans mayor and king? Carloman of Bavaria does not count. Srnec (talk) 17:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pierre Riche, The Carolingians: "Carloman I, son of Charles Martel", "Carloman II, son of Pepin the Short." The other Carlomans he gives are just "Carloman of Bavaria, son of Louis the German", "Carloman, son of Charles the Bald" and "Carloman, son of Louis the Stammerer". Cambridge Medieval History, however, talks of "Carloman I" (referring to the brother of Charlemagne) and "Carloman II" (referring to this person). Michael Sanders 18:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Such numbers are not the common thing, as the Hammer's son Carloman was mayor while his nephew, Charlemagne's brother Carloman was King, the first of that name. If anyone is Carloman I it is Charlemagne's brother. Hence, such a number is possibly, though not actually needed. Str1977 ^(talk) 19:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree in general, though Sanders has provided a source for two diff. enumerations. There is no doubt, however, that they are arbitrary. We could move this to "Carloman II of West Francia" if there is an issue with using "France". I wouldn't object. As to "Carloman I": I agree with Str and the Cambridge, but I have placed a dab hatnote atop Carloman I directing readers to his uncle. I have placed a similar note here in case Carloman I is what's meant. That done, I think the situation is as good as it'll get unless somebody wants to remove "France" here or go back to the "son of" forms we originally had for the first two Carlomans. Srnec (talk) 22:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]