Talk:Charles IX of France

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. – robertsky (talk) 21:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Charles IX of France → Charles IX
• Charles IX → Charles IX (disambiguation)
• Charles VIII of France → Charles VIII
• Charles VIII → Charles VIII (disambiguation)

– The French monarchs appear to be the clear

Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject France has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose You haven't demonstrated that disambiguation is not needed per WP:SOVEREIGN. If I was interested in the Swedish monarch it is counter productive to me that the other monarch with that cardinal is now not indicated as such in its title. Moreover, for those interested in the French king, it is easier to know you have the correct article when it has what they are king of in the title.

More broadly, I don't know why it is now Wikipedia policy to make monarchs articles more confusing to navigate. sovietblobfish (talk) 16:59, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I have demonstrated that disambiguation is not needed. The English languge articles about the French monarchs consistently get far more pageviews than the articles about the Swedish monarchs, and as such they are the

WP:SOVEREIGN, just like Charles X and Charles III

. Furthermore, the Swedish monarchs are more commonly known as "Karl" (or Carl) rather than Charles, whereas the French kings are only known as Charles.

Having Charles IX and Charles VIII as disambiguation pages makes the articles more confusing to navigate, as 9 out of 10 times, people looking for just "Charles VIII/IX" on English Wikipedia are looking for the French monarch. UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 17:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To support my claim, here are the wikinav pages for Charles VIII/IX. [3] [4]. Most of the traffic goes to the French monarchs. UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 17:28, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment If the Swedish articles were moved to Karl/Carl VIII IX (which you inform me is their WP:COMMONNAME) that would simplifying matters immeasurably in this situation. sovietblobfish (talk) 17:32, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per
  WP:COMMONNAME. These figures are rendered unrecognizable. Walrasiad (talk) 18:27, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  Comment - Disambiguation is not needed, as I have shown above. UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 20:33, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You have shown nothing of the sort. Walrasiad (talk) 21:15, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. No primary topic. Srnec (talk) 01:27, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Most of the works on Charles IX refer to them as simply "Charles IX" without the "of France" because he is the primary topic. [5] UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 08:28, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yet all those are French articles written in French history journals. Our audience is not French specialist scholars. It is English-speaking general readers. Walrasiad (talk) 15:16, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per
  WP:SOVEREIGN as clear primary topics, as demonstrated by both pageviews and wikinav linked above. Rosbif73 (talk) 09:20, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Oppose. Primary topic isn't only about page views. Web searches for "Charles IX" or "Charles VIII" throw up the Swedish kings within the first 10 hits, so the topic isn't primary enough for me to support.
  Celia Homeford (talk) 11:13, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Oppose as per the reasons given above. Disambiguation is needed. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 12:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. No clear primary topics. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:00, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Clearly
  WP:AT). Disambiguation still exists when primary topic applies, just in a different way. Where there is a primary topic a goodly majority of our readers are better served by getting them where they want to be through the least number of steps. The remainder of readers would still go through the same number of steps that presently exist. If we consider prevalence in sources as a metric to assess primary topic, we still get a result supporting that these do fall to primary topic. Hits from JSTOR for Charles IX (F)/Charles IX (S)/Karl IX are 338/23/14 and google scholar 4310/945/399. Hits from JSTOR for Charles VIII (F)/Charles VIII (S) are 198/4 and google scholar 4410/586. I did not think that the ngram evidence previously cited was as convincing as claimed. These searches would tell us it is not. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:14, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Oppose - Best for our readers to know as early as possible, what country these monarchs have reigned over. GoodDay (talk) 02:13, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per reasons already given above. Robertus Pius (Talk • Contribs) 00:46, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]