Talk:Development of Grand Theft Auto V

Hey @Mainline421, I see a number of revert on this page but I don't know what the dispute is about—can you summarize it for me? Your edit summaries mention discussion on the talk page but I don't see any discussion here. czar 23:25, 15 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @

Rhain1999's talk pages. To fully understand the dispute you'd need to look at the diffs and the talk pages, but I will try to summarize here. Mostly the dispute is about Rhain1999's misleading coverage of the PC, and current generation console versions as well as his attempts to keep them separate from the previous generation console versions and generality keep the article the same (he actually undid my edits adding any coverage at all initially! [[1]

]) For instance his version of the article says "Grand Theft Auto V was initially developed for the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360; early development for the Microsoft Windows version also took place around this time" and then makes no mention of this under the dedicated sub-heading. When the PC version was actually developed in parallel with those versions (see sources in current version of article). He also removes any mention of PC exclusive radio stations and removes the word most in "Like most previous games in the series, Grand Theft Auto V also contains licensed music tracks..." which is ofcource incorrect as GTA 1, London 1969, L1961 and 2 do not contain licensed music tracks.

A few other disagreements have also arisen. I compromised on many minor things and we appeared to be in agreement as he responded "I agree that the warring should stop, so thank you for compromising. I might go through and copy-edit your additions to the article in the near future, but it looks pretty good at the moment. I hope to still see you on Wikipedia in the future, and that any hostility between us is gone. Thanks!" But that "copy-edit" proved to just be a revert. So when I noticed I reverted the revert until we both had reverted 3 times at which point he just signed out and reverted again (proven to be him). Really he should be blocked form editing GTAV articles in my opinion but as I'm involved in the dispute I'm not exactly in position to report him. Mainline421 (talk) 14:19, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of moving forward, I trust that we can agree to put prior disputes behind and just talk the current changes on the table. What is your objection to the items in the last reverted revision? My understanding is that the revert contains several objections so perhaps we can discuss them individually. czar 14:53, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@

Czar To start with there are the changes I mentioned in my first paragraph above. But really I think the real question is: What improvements does Rhain1999's version bring to the article? Because right now I can't see any. He's just very good at talking like he wants the project but his edits here don't. Mainline421 (talk) 16:39, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

So comments like that last sentence are generally unhelpful—we're focused on de-escalation right now. We

strike}} it, actually. To stick to the point, my understanding is that the edit you reverted is not actually a change but the status quo. Per BRD, we keep the most recent, stable version of an article and discuss changes whereof—which is to say that if you are proposing a change from the existing version (which, to be fair, was already put to the highest level of WP scrutiny through a featured article review), that said change would be what we discuss here and not the preexisting version. Then you can make a case for your change and we can discuss calmly. czar 17:54, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

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Rhain1999 can you please explain the case for your version. Mainline421 (talk) 20:33, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

• This diff is the comparison between the current version and the August 3rd version, prior to the dispute. So the diff on the left would be the stable version and the diff on the right would be the proposed changes. What is the case for the revisions to the right (of the diff), and what is the case against them, in brief? I still don't know what part of the content is disputed. czar 22:44, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'll explain each of my changes to the article individually. I've done this

beforehand

, but I'll expand:

• The change of "PC, PS4 and Xbox One" to "Re-release" in the "Editions" table is simply due to restricting the use of abbreviations (PS4 instead of PlayStation 4), though I'm apathetic about this.
• Moving the information regarding the PC delay to the end of the paragraph about the other delays is to avoid having such a small paragraph about the PC delays. It's also just nicer (and makes sense) to group related information. We've also previously agreed to make a compromise here.
• Adding "as was the Microsoft Windows version" at the end of "Overview" seems pointless and poorly worded to me.
• Removing a link to
  Los Santos (Grand Theft Auto)
  makes sense, since the article does not exist.
• Adding a link to Trevor Philips in the {{Further}} template also makes sense, because there is more information about the development of the character on the article.
• It makes more sense to me that the "re-release" section is placed below "Music production", and Mainline has already said that he "[doesn't] care that much" about it, so I guess that's clear.
• I don't have a source, but I'm certain that the early Grand Theft Auto games contain licensed music on an in-game radio. The articles certainly seem to suggest so.
• "and a radio station for custom audio files on PC" is unsourced.
• As for the "Re-release" section itself:

• Placing the image on the right and the quote on the left looks much better and cleaner (in my opinion).
• The section immediately starts with information about the development, and the second sentence talks about the announcement. Switching this makes more sense.
• Writing "Xbox 360" and then "PS3" is inconsistent.
• "announceed" is a typo.
• Mainline's edit removes some information about the PS3/360 versions (regarding the activities, weapons, vehicles, radio, multiplayer).
• The organisation doesn't make too much sense to me. Splitting the paragraph in two leaves both paragraphs without a reference at the end.

Admonish me if I wasn't supposed to do this, or if I chose a bad time to respond. –

talk to me) 23:49, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Rhain1999

• It's much clearer that way and as you're apathetic about this it can remain using the abbreviations.
• We did compromise to have it under the same subheading (an agreement you did not honour!) and I would not be willing to compromise any further than that as they are separate events.
• Its much better than your misleading wording I mentioned above.
• OK we can agree to remove it.
• You have point, so we can re-add that.
• As I've already said music production continued after the current generation games console launch and the PC and PS4 versions are much more notable than the music production.
• They did not.[1]
• OK I'll add a source.
• Enhanced versions subheading:

• OK I'll do that.
• This is an article specifically about the development of Grand Theft Auto V and information should be presented in chronological order in my opinion.
• I'll change that to PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 then.
• Fixed.
• It doesn't.

I've created a draft copy fixing the above in my sandbox [[2]] please tell me if you still have any problems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mainline421 (talk • contribs) 23:27, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mainline421: Thanks for responding individually. I still have a few problems.

• Putting the PC delay information in the first paragraph of "Delays and leak" still makes more sense to me. I guess it's a personal preference, though.
• The sections aren't really ordered by notability, or chronologically. It still makes more sense to me to place "Re-release" under "Music production". Again, probably personal preference.
• Thanks for providing that source. It looks like the first GTA (and maybe Advance) was the only one not to contain licensed music, but that confirms your claims.
• I understand that the article is about development, but to the average reader, having the section begin with the announcement information is more logical and fluent.
• I think you should take another look at your edit; it removes the following information from the "Re-release" section:

Content available to players returning from the PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360 versions includes exclusive activities, weapons and vehicles in the enhanced version. It features more than 100 new songs across the game's radio stations. Players may transfer characters and progression of Grand Theft Auto Online from the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 over to the new platforms.

• Speaking of which, I'd appreciate an explanation regarding your layout of the "Re-release" section. By splitting the first paragraph, not only is it removing the information above (in addition to the "as well as a new on-foot
  first-person view
  option" sentence), but it also leaves two short paragraphs with no references at the end. Two larger paragraphs still makes more sense to me.

Thanks again. –

talk to me) 00:15, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Rhain1999 First of all thanks for removing the copyrighted images, my bad. I have restored the ""as well as a new on-foot first-person view option" and have re-merged the two paragraphs. I have also replaced the section about returning players as here again is an example of your misleading wording. The PC, PS4 and XBO versions feature the new music for everyone and returning player content is also available to people stupid enough to buy the current generation console version and then transfer to PC. Please tell me what you think. Mainline421 (talk) 14:07, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

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talk to me) 14:47, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

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Rhain1999 "Grand Theft Auto V was initially developed for the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360; early development for the Microsoft Windows version also took place around this time" is incorrect as all three versions were developed in parallel. The "as was the Microsoft Windows version" is needed in my opinion so as not to mislead the reader but if you have a less "awkward" way of phrasing it please do suggest it. Also since the main Grand Theft Auto V article has (against my personal opinion) reverted to using "Re-release" that can be used here for consistency so I have changed that. Mainline421 (talk) 16:53, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

@

talk to me) 03:50, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

Something like "early development for the Microsoft Windows version also took place around this time, but core development was focused on the console versions until the game's release on PlayStation 4 and Xbox One in November 2014"? Probably needs reworking. –

talk to me) 05:02, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

I was thinking something more like

The development team mainly focused on the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 versions before their work on the releases for other platforms, though their work on the Windows release started early in the development cycle.

but I didn't read for what fits best. czar 05:16, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely sounds better to me. I was struggling to find the right way to phrase it, but I think you got it. –

talk to me) 05:31, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Rhain1999: I do hate to sound counter-productive, but this still incorrect the PC version was developed in parallel with the last generation games console versions as can be seen in the other source [[3]] and even the source Rhain1999 used says development of the PC version started "on day 1". There was no additional focus on the the previous generation console versions until late in the development cycle. Mainline421 (talk) 12:57, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

That source simply refers to a leaked bug log for the game, which is not reliable by any means (

talk to me) 13:08, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

@

primary source which can be verified by anyone who owns a GTA V PS3 disk (I don't) and is much more reliable than whatever lines Rockstar Games's PR department come up with. We are supposed to be concerned with the actual facts, not the official version of events, and even your source says "early development was done in parallel with the console versions". We have discussed this already. Mainline421 (talk) 13:42, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

You must understand that it is a "leaked" bug log; even if it is on the code of the PS3 disc, I still don't believe it can be deemed reliable. As for the "in parallel" part: it says "early development" was done in parallel with the console versions, which Czar's suggestion above clearly states. –

talk to me) 13:52, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

• I restored the August 3rd draft (the last stable version) as mentioned above. The article can build out from there with consensus. Please find consensus on this talk page before committing any further changes. czar 05:25, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@

Czar Even Rahin1999's biased incomplete version is better than a version that outdated so I have very temporarily reverted to that as I do not think that will be disputed. Mainline421 (talk) 23:37, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

• We are supposed to be concerned with the actual facts Not to be too blunt, but WP is
  more concerned with verifiability than truth. When we say we trust a secondary source, it means that we trust in its ability to discern what content is worth knowing and we trust their fact checking (not to be infallible but) to bear responsibility for the way they put stories. So we would always prefer a secondary source account (even if you personally think of it as spoonfed "PR") over a primary ("official") source account precisely for its layer of quality control. Our job is to present the vetted sources, not to find the truth—if one of the many secondary sources covering the development finds that leaked bug log point important or makes a more conclusive statement about overlapping development timelines, only then should we cite such a claim. czar 15:09, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply
  ]

@

Rhain1999 Mainline421 (talk) 19:39, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

There would be a discussion if there was a proposal—I recommend suggesting new edits here one at a time. This article went through a featured article review process so it is unlikely to need massive or wholesale revision. czar 21:10, 6 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@

Czar It was not this version of the article that went through a featured article review and it does need a lot of editing as the version that did would now be very outdated. Do you have any specific problems with this version: [[6]] as I have outlined my problems with the current version already above. Mainline421 (talk) 12:08, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

I'm peripheral to this discussion. Both of your edits were contested and the agreement was to discuss each proposed change one by one here. czar 18:49, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@

Czar There was no agreement, discussion was and is being attempted but is going nowhere, many individual issues were discussed above. If no editor can name any problems with the version that has been constructed through this discussion then a consensus has been reached and the new version will be introduced. Mainline421 (talk) 22:45, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

Consensus doesn't work by edict. Your numerous changes were contested and they shouldn't be added back without discussion, which is normally done in parts. Can you please supply a diff for the changes you propose? czar 22:54, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@

Rhain1999 also has a version he created after my original version. Mainline421 (talk) 16:25, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

I still disagree with the removal of "Grand Theft Auto V was initially developed for the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360; early development for the Microsoft Windows version also took place around this time", as well as the addition of "as was the Microsoft Windows version", from the "Production" section. They basically describe the same thing, but I find the former to be much more readable and coherent. Similarly, the sentence "Development of the

talk to me) 01:55, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@

good faith. Mainline421 (talk) 22:32, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@Mainline421: Thank you for responding.

• You seem very adamant about stating that the PC version was developed in parallel with the PS3/360 versions, but the source states that they only started PC development around this time, and then focused their attention on the console versions. As such, I think we should alter the third "Overview" paragraph to open with the following, as
  czar
  suggested above:

  The development team mainly focused on the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 versions before their work on the releases for other platforms, though their work on the Windows release started early in the development cycle.

  This makes it clear that the team started PC development early, which is something that we both want included in the article.
• Similarly, it seems redundant to open the "Re-release" section with information regarding the time frame of PC development, since it's already mentioned in the "Overview" section above.
• The "as was the Microsoft Windows version" becomes more unnecessary the more I look at it. The sentence states that differences between the PS3/360 versions are negligible, because they were developed in tandem, as per the immediate source provided; mentioning the PC version after this doesn't quite fit, and seems to be throwing it in for the sake of mentioning it.
• While the two delays are certainly separate events, they are very similar events. The Japanese release of the game is a separate event to the original delays, but that doesn't mean it should get it's own paragraph. In fact, I could go so far as to say that the first PC delay was a separate event to the second PC delay, yet they belong together in a paragraph. It just makes more sense to group related information.

Thanks again. –

talk to me) 00:27, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Rhain1999

• That source states "...early development was done in parallel with the console versions. In fact, some of the early preparations we made for PC, like 64 bit & DX11 support, paid off very handsomely when the PS4 and Xbox One architectures were announced. That early work made the process of transitioning to the new consoles a lot easier and allowed us to hit the ground running. The artists also prepared for PC by authoring their source art at PC-ready resolutions, even though we had to use massively reduced versions for the PS3 and XB360." at no point does that say they focused on previous generation games consoles more than PC and if you look at the other source you will see development did not strongly focus on the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 versions until late in the development cycle.
• We've got to think about this from the reader's point of view. Very few readers will read the entire article and people looking for information about the PC, PS4 and XBO versions will look in that section.
• As I have already in this very discussion The "as was the Microsoft Windows version" is needed in my opinion so as not to mislead the reader but if you have a less "awkward" way of phrasing it please do suggest it. To not include it would mean that sentence was very misleading imlying only the PS3 and XB360 versions were in development at first.
• Your version places "On 23 August 2013, reports said that some European PlayStation 3... below the Microsoft Windows delays which doesn't really make sense to me.You're right it does make more sense to group related information hence why all PC delays are in the same paragraph.

Mainline421 (talk) 12:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Mainline421:

• This source states the following (my emphasis):

  "While we started development of the PC version quite early, we decided to focus the bulk of our attention on the PS3 and XB360 versions first in order to push that as far as we possibly could before turning our attention to the PS4 and Xbox One versions, and then using the shared architecture underpinning the new consoles to help ourselves ramp up into the PC version and push the game as far as we possibly could knowing we would have the opportunity to make the game look and feel better than it ever has."

  That's not to say that "they focused on previous generation games consoles more than PC", as you said I was suggesting, but it clearly says that they initially focused on PS3/360. I'm not even looking at the other source, since that references a leaked bug log, which should not be trusted to any extent. I'm not even a big fan of including the reference in the article in the first place, but one step at a time.
• While I don't personally think that we should be repeating things for the sake of readers skipping earlier sections (pretty much the basis of
  WP:DUPLINK
  ), I totally understand that it makes sense to briefly repeat the information. I'd still prefer for the sentence about the E3 announcement to come first, though. Personal preference, I suppose.
• If we stick to what we discussed, and include information about PC development at the beginning of the third "Overview" paragraph, then "as was the Microsoft Windows version" is completely unnecessary. Not to mention that it reuses the references anyway.
• I'm not going to try and argue about the PC delays anymore. I just figured it was logical to group them with the other delays, since it results in shorter paragraphs, and it's all very closely related.

Thanks. –

talk to me) 13:22, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Rhain1999 Not even looking at the other source is ridiculous and not constructive, both sources use PC Gamer and the bug log comes from the most trustworthy reliable source possible on this subject and is verifiable by anyone. I don't recall a consensus to include information about PC development at the beginning of the third "Overview" paragraph. Nonetheless although I still disagree with this I have removed the "as was the Microsoft Windows version" from [8] the version on my sandbox], and I have also altered the end of the paragraph so it won't be misleading. "The development team mainly focused on the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 versions before their work on the releases for other platforms" is incorrect however so do you have alternative suggestions for beginning that paragraph? Mainline421 (talk) 16:59, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@

talk to me) 17:10, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

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Rhain1999: The bug log states otherwise, and it's not our place as editors to decide whether reliable source's sources are themselves reliable. Rockstar Games have also stated on Twitter they develop there games in parallel across all platforms. Rockstar Games did not mainly focus on the console versions and the PS4 and XBO versions are ports of the PC version! While reliable sources may not be available for all of this, that is the actual truth yet you still refuse to believe the truth. For clarification all content I have attempted to add to the article was however back up by a reliable source. Mainline421 (talk) 17:28, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

• @
  Rhain1999: If I can be helpful here, the primary purpose of the bug log article is to report that a primary source (a bug log) confirms a PC release in development. It's good enough on face value as a report that "their work on the Windows release started early in the development cycle" but I wouldn't push it further than that (ostensibly you can use another source that says the same line as a basic fact without relying on the pretense of the primary source). I don't see the contention with "mainly focused", per the Rockstar talk 4K article quoted above. An alternative could be "prioritized" if you don't like that specific phrasing. czar 19:41, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply
  ]

The article doesn't say anything about a fully playable PC port at the time, so to conclude that from leaked images alone is at best a

original research. We present the sources and right now I don't see any source countering the "Rockstar talk 4K" interview that says they focused on previous gen first, next gen next, and PC last, building on each port's improvements. I would even go further to say that this statement is uncontroversial seeing as they were released in that order too. czar 22:38, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

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Czar: I was referring to the images in the bug log article which are part of the article and would counter the other source. The statement would extremely controversial if made in certain places and is still wrong. I must mention The PC version is not a port! Mainline421 (talk) 23:51, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@

port" doesn't necessarily mean rewritten from the ground up—it can be just a release for a different platform.) czar 00:02, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@

port means to convert a video game to run on a different platform, Rockstar Games don't do this anymore the core engine is designed to be multi-platform and every game is built from the ground up on each platform sharing assets.) Mainline421 (talk) 13:00, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@Mainline421,

It’s possible that lead development was switched to PC at this date--perhaps in anticipation of next-gen consoles and their PC-style architectures--but that’s pure speculation on my part. ... At some point GTA 5 has been running on a PC, and has been debugged on a PC. It's not definitive proof ...

I don't see what the source "agrees" with—it reads quite noncommittal to me.

I also don't see what part of the bug log images affirm that the game was "fully playable". The dev interview can be used as a

self-published, primary source about self—it is direct from the developer's mouth—while the bug log as a primary source requires some sort of original interpretation to get to the claim that the game was "fully playable" (by which I imagine you mean developed completely in parallel with the others). Furthermore, if you're saying that the bug log goes against the dev's own word, the short answer is that we go with what the developer reasonably says about their process until a secondary source says otherwise and then we either discard the former for the latter or display both claims side by side. For the sake of moving this along, let's only discuss specific quotes, ideally from RS, that counter Rhain's bolded quotes above. Otherwise I see nothing new to discuss. czar 17:08, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@

King James bible

has the quote "there is no god" on numerous occasions)

Code expert @leonhle goes further, suggesting PC was GTA 5’s lead platform, based on memory allocation tables pointing to different pools and values for the Xbox 360, PS3 and PC. “The file folder structure resembles the typical GTA folder setup--anyone who mods on PC will recognize the “common” folder where the shared values or settings between multiple platforms are stationed,” adds Cinemablend. It’s only a theory, but GTA 5 leading on PC makes some sense, perhaps explaining the crispness of earlier trailers that weren’t always matched by screenshots. It might also explain the ‘last-gen mode’ references in the bug list. However, games often look better during cut-scenes despite being generated from the same in-game assets. The bug list mentions ‘PS3’ in May 2011, but first lists ‘PC’ in June 2012. It’s possible that lead development was switched to PC at this date--perhaps in anticipation of next-gen consoles and their PC-style architectures--but that’s pure speculation on my part.

We should discuss anything relevant to this case and as long as a source meets

WP:RS

I will discuss it unless it is contrary to any other policy. Also I'm not saying the bug log goes against the dev's own word, just that you and Rhain1999 are seeing more into that quote then there is, as the quote can be interpreted as not contradicting anything I have said although it's probably deliberately worded misleadingly.

•632447-[PC] All the phones are very dark and hard to read

•121610-[PC] I fell through the world at the end of the Parachute jump 'City Glide' -Robert Scmitz (SD)

These two are taken from the PC Gamer article and both show the game was in a playable state. Mainline421 (talk) 21:08, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@

original research. I see no reason to not take the dev's own word over the bug log speculation. czar 00:12, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@

original research

.

•632447-[PC] All the phones are very dark and hard to read

•121610-[PC] I fell through the world at the end of the Parachute jump 'City Glide' -Robert Scmitz (SD)

The above taken from the PC Gamer article and come straight from the developers. To repeat myself again, I'm not saying the bug log goes against the dev's own word, just that you and Rhain1999 are seeing more into that quote then there is, as the quote can be interpreted as not contradicting anything I have said, although it's probably deliberately worded misleadingly. Mainline421 (talk) 16:05, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• @Mainline421, it is straightforward OR to synthesize claims about the state of development based on leaked images of a dev log—I don't think that's debatable. We don't source rumor and we don't do that kind of synthesis.

I'm really only interested in discussing specific proposals at this point. The working draft was:

The development team mainly focused on the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 versions before their work on the releases for other platforms, though their work on the Windows release started early in the development cycle.

How are you suggesting that that sentence be rephrased/sourced? I don't follow, as is. czar 18:26, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@

exceptional claim in certain ares of the net. Now in regard to the beginning of the third paragraph of the Overview section (which we really need to focus on) I'd say we need to go back to the drawing board as in it's current state it's entirely incorrect. Mainline421 (talk) 21:48, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@

talk to me) 23:47, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Rhain1999

: They did not move on from one version of the game to the next as (even discarding the information in the product) can be seen by how the Rockstar Editor was announced at the same time as the Microsoft Windows version and how the Microsoft Windows version was continually delayed. I'm "so adamant about rejecting this" as information in the PS3 version clearly says it isn't true!

• @Mainline421, feel free to propose a different sentence if you feel strongly. Again, the longer this goes on, the more I think the point is moot. czar 01:43, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@

Rockstar North, but I'd have to re-check the credits) Mainline421 (talk) 22:40, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@Mainline421, I don't see what reliable source substantiates the claims that (1) dev was in parallel and that (2) dev priority was about meeting release dates. czar 22:56, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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reliable source other than your and Rhain1999's interpretation of the former article. Mainline421 (talk) 23:25, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

]

@Mainline421, those sources say a PC port exists, not that all three versions are being produced in parallel (implied as exactly in sync)—I'm skimming unless you have a quote? czar 23:51, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@

Czar First of all none of those sources confirm the existence of a PC port as there is no PC port of Grand Theft Auto V! To qoute the first article "We were always going to bring GTA 5 to PC. We planned from day 1 for a PC build and we made technical decisions based off the fact that we would be doing a PC version of the game." "we started development of the PC version quite early" Also further down the article: PC Gamer: "How did the process of bringing GTA 5 to PC compare to previous Rockstar games on PC, like GTA 4, LA Noire and Max Payne 3? Was there anything different this time around?" Kevin Hoare—president of Rockstar Toronto: "The process of bringing GTA 5 to PC was most similar to our last PC title, Max Payne 3." [Rockstar Games have publicly said many times that Max Payne 3 was developed in parallel across PC and console [[10]

].] "Our process of bringing titles to PC has evolved over the years... early development was done in parallel with the console versions. In fact, some of the early preparations we made for PC, like 64 bit & DX11 support, paid off very handsomely when the PS4 and Xbox One architectures were announced. That early work made the process of transitioning to the new consoles a lot easier and allowed us to hit the ground running. The artists also prepared for PC by authoring their source art at PC-ready resolutions, even though we had to use massively reduced versions for the PS3 and XB360." To repeat for emphasis "early development was done in parallel with the console versions" - Kevin Hoare—president of Rockstar Toronto.

Then there is the second article referencing information included on the PS3 disk in 2013 "•632447-[PC] All the phones are very dark and hard to read" "•121610-[PC] I fell through the world at the end of the Parachute jump 'City Glide' -Robert Scmitz (SD)". and the third article "The 150-page bug log details every major change made to Rockstar’s open-world epic from April 2009 to August 2013--with reference to a ‘PC version’ from June 2012." "The bug log’s highlights include: – Mention of DX11 support, which is Microsoft’s DirectX software used to create ‘eye-popping 3D visuals and immersive sound effects’ in modern PC games. DX11 is fully supported by Xbox One. – Reference to X64, shorthand for the 64-bit version of the x86 instruction set created by PC processor firm AMD. PlayStation 4 uses an eight core custom AMD x86-64 CPU. – A ‘last-gen’ toggle used during development, with reference to ‘fixes for lastgen ped/veh population issues’ and ‘lastgen max mode code’. – A ‘smog’ weather setting in relation to DX11. ‘Blooms too much on smog weather setting’. GTA 5’s iFruit companion app contains files that list a ‘Blizzard’ weather setting, which doesn’t appear in the current version of GTA 5. – Introduction of new Michael and Franklin character models in June 2011." Really you shouldn't be making such strong judgements based "skimming" anyway you should've at least read the whole article. Mainline421 (talk) 17:00, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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talk to me) 17:29, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

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Rhain1999: Firstly because Grand Theft Auto V was initially developed for Microsoft Windows, PlayStation 3, and Xbox 360, not just PS3 and XB360. Secondly because "though their work on the Windows release started early in the development cycle" implies only very basic work done and that this basic work was done after beginning advanced early work on the console versions which is incorrect as they were developed in parallel. Now I know this could be interpreted differently but that's how I read it and I don't think its acceptable if readers were to interpret it this way. Mainline421 (talk) 20:48, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

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talk to me) 23:34, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

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Rhain1999 One source says they focused on those versions and no more, multiple sources don't say any such thing. Also if you actually read [the bug log] (or ctrl+f) you will see that Xbox360 is not specifically mentioned until late 2011. Generally speaking the bug log does not reference specific platforms much at all but it does enough to show development was in parallel until late in the development cycle. Mainline421 (talk) 00:14, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

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• @Mainline421, how about

  While initial development began in parallel between the console and Windows releases,^[2] the team ultimately prioritized their PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 versions ahead of the other platform releases.^[3]

I only see one phrase ("done in parallel") that I think could factor in here. As for the moralization about skimming—the burden of verification is on the editor proposing the change. It's not on me to find the needle in the haystack. By the way, you don't need to ping me as I'm following the page (only pinging you based on the request). czar 23:48, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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WP:AGF) you really shouldn't have tried to take the role in this discussion you did and while you are more than welcome to continue contributing here please don't keep acting as you were, and bear in mind that more reliable sources state development was conducted in parallel than any focus was on the seventh generation game console versions. Mainline421 (talk) 00:14, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

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@Mainline421: It is not an assumption, and it is sourced. Your claim above that "one source says they focused on those versions and no more, multiple sources don't say any such thing" is irrelevant unless you provide these multiple sources that contradict the PC Gamer interview. As for czar's contribution to the discussion, I think you're being a little unfair; I contacted him, an admin, because I was unsure on how to continue with this, since we were unable to reach any sort of decision. He did not assume that I "was right": if you look at the beginning of the discussion again, he asked that I also explain my changes to the article, after which he was free to form any opinion that he believes is beneficial to the page. This has nothing to do with my previous encounters with czar (besides a few GAN and DYK reviews, we have not worked together before). He can see the facts are blatantly stated in the source, and, being the honest and genuine editor that he is, is trying to include the truth (as stated by a reliable source) in the article. – Rhain ☔ 01:17, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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WT:VG but I highly doubt you'll find anyone with the patience that I've given this. In fact, since we're now in the realm of unsubstantiated personal aspersions, I see nothing left to discuss here. czar 06:09, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

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How should the second paragraph of the overview section begin in this draft begin? Disagreement has arisen over how this paragraph should begin, this mainly stems from whether or not Grand Theft Auto V was developed in parallel for Microsoft Windows, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 as it is argued is confirmed by these articles: GTA 5 bug log lists PC version and DirectX 11 effects, Rockstar talk 4K, PC performance and more, and GTA 5 on PC - why the evidence is too strong to ignore however, it is also argued that this quote from the second article contradicts this:

"While we started development of the PC version quite early, we decided to focus the bulk of our attention on the PS3 and XB360 versions first in order to push that as far as we possibly could before turning our attention to the PS4 and Xbox One versions, and then using the shared architecture underpinning the new consoles to help ourselves ramp up into the PC version and push the game as far as we possibly could knowing we would have the opportunity to make the game look and feel better than it ever has."

while it has also been said that this merely a matter of interpretation and that this does not contradict the other sources. The reliance of a leaked bug log for the claims that development was in parallel have been criticized as well, this been contended with the fact that the bug log is present on the PlayStation 3 disk, and it has therefore been argued it is part of the product and not leaked or rumour. All the above articles meet

@Mainline421, Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Statement_should_be_neutral_and_brief—I think you'll want to rephrase the above to a simple yes/no proposal and keep all the rest to your opinion. czar 23:39, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Czar I can see your logic there but this can't be simplified to yes or no yet as we need to reach a compromise here rather than having two options at opposite extremes. I have tried to be as neutral as possible but this is very difficult in this case, if you have any way of making it more neutral please do so. Mainline421 (talk) 00:18, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply

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I can't make heads or tails of what the RfC is trying to do, so I doubt it'll have much traction. I don't have any more time to dedicate to this right now, though.  czar 00:38, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how the quote here contradicts the claims that the versions were developed simultaneously. Perhaps you might clarify that although started simultaneously, development gave way to focus on the console platforms? I'm not sure this is really good grounds for an RfC though. --Topperfalkon (talk) 13:59, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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seventh generation console platforms.

Mainline421 (talk) 23:22, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply

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@Mainline421 Well, if the sources support that statement, it works for me :) I don't really have much of an opinion on this, it just seemed to me that it only needs a little clarifying. --Topperfalkon (talk) 00:16, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The following is more accurate, though, per the sources provided.

While initial development began in parallel between the console and Windows releases,^[4] the team ultimately prioritised the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 versions ahead of the other platform releases.^[5]

The PC, PS3 and 360 versions were initially developed in tandem, but (as the source explicitly states) PS3 and 360 soon became the priority, followed by PS4 and Xbox One, followed again by more PC. – Rhain ☔ 00:43, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Rhain The Source does not "explicitly state" any such thing! Putting a reference twice doesn't change that. Mainline421 (talk) 21:26, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Mainline421: I've quoted it once, I'll do it again.

"While we started development of the PC version quite early, we decided to focus the bulk of our attention on the PS3 and XB360 versions first in order to push that as far as we possibly could before turning our attention to the PS4 and Xbox One versions, and then using the shared architecture underpinning the new consoles to help ourselves ramp up into the PC version and push the game as far as we possibly could knowing we would have the opportunity to make the game look and feel better than it ever has."

Seems pretty explicit to me. – Rhain ☔ 08:09, 7 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Rhain"we decided to focus the bulk of our attention" Does not mean "...the team ultimately prioritised the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 versions ahead of the other platform releases." and "...before turning our attention to the PS4 and Xbox One versions, and then using the shared architecture underpinning the new consoles to help ourselves ramp up into the PC version" does not mean they were priortitised above PC! As you know the PC version was initially scheduled for release at same time as current generation games consoles^[6], and the PC exclusive Rockstar Editor was announced at the same time. So your interpretaton does not even fit with Rockstar Games's version of events. Mainline421 (talk) 21:56, 7 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

While initial development began in parallel between the console and Windows releases,^[4] the team ultimately focused their attention on the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 versions ahead of the other platform releases.^[5]

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tone of Wikipedia. Mainline421 (talk) 17:09, 8 February 2016 (UTC)[reply

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@Mainline421: I absolutely think it fits the tone of Wikipedia, and I see no problem with the "Even though" part, but I will try to reword it for you.

Initial development began in parallel between the console and Windows releases,^[4] but the team ultimately focused their attention on the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 versions prior to focusing on other platform releases.^[5]

– Rhain ☔ 20:50, 8 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Rhain: I still don't like that wording, it's needlessly long and just seems to emphasize that "the team [in reality different teams were focused on different platforms] ultimately prioritised the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 versions ahead of the other platform releases." What exactly is your issue with the wording below?

Development of Grand Theft Auto V started simultaneously on

seventh generation console platforms.

Mainline421 (talk) 23:17, 13 February 2016 (UTC)[reply