Talk:E. P. Sanders

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Sanders is a historian, not a theologian. The claim that he is a theologian needs support: what works of theology has he written? The claim that he is not a historian is based on a misunderstanding of the discipline of history in the English speaking world. Traditional, history departments focus on the history of modern Europe, although many departments may have a few historians who research ancient Western societies and non-Western socieites. Many historians researching non-Western socieites receive their training and teach in interdisciplinary programs (e.g. African Studies, East Asian Studies). And, for the most part, historians working with texts not written in a modern language receive their training in specialized programs e.g. Classics (Greek and Roman history), or Ancient Near Eastern or Biblical Studies (ancient Israel, Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Sumeria). Sanders is trained historian and publishes historical studies. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:07, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

from http://www.duke.edu/religion/home/EP/sanders.html

Sanders is a Professor in the Duke University Department of Religion

E.P. SANDERS (1990) received his Th.d. from Union Seminary (NY) 1966. In 1990, he was awarded a D. Litt. by the University of Oxford and D.Theol. by the University of Helsinki. He is a Fellow of the British Academy. The author, co-author or editor of thirteen books, as well as articles in encyclopedias and journals, he has received several awards and prizes, including the Grawemeyer Prize for the best book on religion published in the 1980s (Jesus and Judaism). His work has been translated into nine different languages. He came to Duke from Oxford, where he was from 1984-1990 the Dean Ireland's Professor of Exegesis and also fellow of the Queen's College.

Th.d. = Doctor of Theology —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.201.26.37 (talk • contribs)

I think that you are both overstating your cases here. I think that a far more defensible argument is that Sanders is both a historian and a theologian- it seems to me he is examining the early New Testament period in a way which has both historical and theological implications (perhaps with it not always being clear where one starts and the other ends). I am therefore going to edit the introduction to reflect this attempt at a compromise. --G Rutter 17:28, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would preferance historian, but compromised with scholar. First, using both historian and theologian is wordy. Second, theology, in the Christian context, is a specific academic subset undertaken in seminaries, divinity schools and departments of theology focusing on doctrinal work. Thus the term theologian refers specifically to someone who does systematic or constructive theology, not New Testament studies or Christian history. See here, here and here. Occasionally Christian history is folded into theology, as it is here. This is due to a dialogic focus on doctrinal history.

Sanders's work is in New Testament studies and uses historical methods. The degree Th.D. indicates only that he received his doctorate from a seminary, not a department of religion (though you can notice at the previous source, the UTS Th.D. is now a Ph.D.). See here. I'm not sure why it is suppossed to prove anything beyond that: If I have a Ph.D., M.Phil. or M.Litt. in history, it does not signify history of philosophy or literature. Neither is it dispositive that he taught in Duke's religion department. Actually, it undermines the case. Had he been a theologian, per se, he most likely would have had a post at Duke's Divinity School, where theology is also a separate discipline.

Your point that New Testament studies necessarily affects theology is well taken, but assumes Sanders was interested in constructive Christian theology (and also, implicitly, that he was a Christian). You're an archeologist, yes? Despite obvious contributions to the field, does that make you an historian?--Mrdarcey 18:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that "scholar" is probably better than the alternatives we've tried. I think that you're assuming that a theologian must be a Christian which I'm much less convinced about. The reason I think describing Sanders simply as a historian is unclear is because the history he does has a direct, self-conscious impact on theology as well. I'm an archaeologist, but not a historian, but I know archaeologists who are historians (and a physicist who is an archaeologist)- it depends what you do and how you do it! --G Rutter 10:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if there isn't a semantic difference between UK and US usage here (general discipline v. specific job)? I am assuming that a theologian, who works within the Christian tradition, is necessarily Christian, yes. But I certainly was called a theologian when doing my UK degree, despite an interest in history. Still, Eusebius is called an historian and Augustine a theologian.

In any case, glad to see a consensus could be reached.--Mrdarcey 13:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not history has an influence on theology depends on the theologian. I personally hope some theologians have been influenced by the work of modern historians, Sanders included, just as I hope they have been influenced by modern scientists like Darwin. This does not mean that the Sanders and Darwin were theologians. Moreover, there are plenty of theologians who ignore the worl of Darwin - and of historians, like Sanders. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is simply a mistake to think that a person with a ThD., a doctorate in theology, is a theologian. There are many many people with PhDs (doctorate of philosophy) who are not philosophers. To go through all Wikipedia articles and add that anyone who holds a PhD. is a philosopher would be to reveal tremendous ignorance of the acadamy and subvert our reputation. That Sanders had a doctorate in theology simply does not mean he was a theologian. You have to do more research beyond finding what his title his, in order to identify him professionally. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Slrubenstein, I have reversed your unilateral edit of "scholar" to "historian", which you made without an edit summary and without discussion on this page. Your arguments against simply calling Sanders a theologian have been accepted. What is your problem with the word scholar? --G Rutter 13:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This claim needs some textual support. Sanders is known for arguing in Jesus and Judaism that there were no substantial points of opposition between Jesus and the Pharisees, but I'm pretty sure he didn't argue that Jesus was a Pharisee. I'm going to check the text again. Ptypes 21:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I checked Jesus and Judaism closely regarding Jesus and the Pharisees and didn't find any argument or claim by Sanders that Jesus was a Pharisee. Is there some other source for this? I'm proposing to delete "Sanders also argued that Jesus was a Pharisee." Ptypes 17:09, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikipedia writer said: However, Sanders stressed that Paul also "loved good deeds" [3] and that when his words are taken in context, it emerges that Paul advocates good works in addition to faith in Christ.[3]

He failed to answer the question: "good works in addition to faith in Christ" for what?: 1. Salvation? 2. Rewards from Christ? 3. To continue to belong to the group? The answer is too important to omit. Gordonhumbled51 (talk) 23:44, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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