Talk:Haiti–United States relations

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talk) 22:06, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sullivankm001.

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talk) 23:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply
]

Recognition

When and why (then) was Haiti recognised by the United States?--Derim Hunt 22:09, 05. Feb. 2010 (CEST)

NPOV

This article is pretty clearly not NPOV. Until today, no mention of US opposition to Haitian minimum wage hike, no reference to Firmin, just a US government page cut and pasted to Wikipedia. SashiRolls (talk) 16:35, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Attempt at dispute resolution

The

Caracol Industrial Park[4] has been the source of significant criticism[1][5] as it has been accompanied by US Embassy and State Department opposition to raising the minimum wage in Haiti.[6][7]

References

  1. ^ a b Katz, Jonathan (May 4, 2015). "The King and Queen of Haiti". Politico. Retrieved September 21, 2016.
  2. ISBN 978-0-230-34187-6
    . Retrieved September 21, 2016.
  3. ^ Katz, Jonathan (September 2, 2015). "The Clintons' Haiti Screw-Up, As Told By Hillary's Emails". Politico. Retrieved September 21, 2016.
  4. ^ Haiti Libre Staff (24 October 2012). "Haiti - Economy : The SONAPI proud of its Caracol Industrial Park". Haiti Libre. Retrieved 22 September 2016.
  5. ^ Johnston, Jake (January 16, 2014). "Outsourcing Haiti: How disaster relief became a disaster of its own". Boston Review. Retrieved September 22, 2016.
  6. ^ Dan Coughlin; Kim Ives (June 1, 2011). "WikiLeaks Haiti: Let Them Live on $3 a Day". The Nation. Retrieved September 22, 2016.
  7. ^ Dan Coughlin; Kim Ives (25 May 2011). "Washington Backed Famous Brand-Name Contractors in Fight Against Haiti's Minimum Wage Increase". Haiti Liberté. Vol. 4, no. 45. Retrieved September 22, 2016.

The preceding historical information has been added to this article in an effort to improve the article, which was previously almost entirely based on a copy-paste from public domain text written by the US State Department. A user (

Snooganssnoogans
) who is active on political candidate pages at Wikipedia has reverted it twice without proposing any improvements.

How would you like to rewrite this content

Snooganssnoogans
and integrate it into the article? As you know, Bill & Hillary Clinton both have a long history of action in Haiti, as the very detailed May 2015 Politico article and the award-winning book by Jonathan Katz make clear (see the extensive entries in the book's index for the two US politicians' role in Haitian politics). The Sept 2015 article describing Chelsea Clinton's criticism of US NGOs working in Haiti and the articles explaining how the US embassy in Haiti opposed raising the minimum wage also speak directly to Haiti-US relations. (Note that it is explicitly stated that this was with the approval of the US State Department: "To resolve the impasse between the factory owners and parliament, the State Department urged then Haitian President René Préval to intervene." (cf. last 2 references))

I'm really struggling to see on what grounds you oppose adding this historical content. Could you please write the content in your own words if you don't think my approach is appropriate? Thank you. I was not aware you were well-versed in Haitian history, but I look forward to collaborating with you. I've been a student of Haitian history since the 1990s and so, like you, I'm aware that this article needs major work to render it NPOV. As a question of good faith, I'll give you a few hours to look into improving the content of these two sentences, before calling for comment from other uninvolved editors. I've made two improvements to the text and added one reference to further help you. Looking forward to your productive comments. It would be good to resolve this quickly, so as to move backwards in time to the 1915 invasion under Wilson. SashiRolls (talk) 18:25, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is very simple: This article is about bilateral relations between the US and Haiti. The Clinton Foundation's and Bill's post-presidency actions in Haiti have no relevance unless he and the Foundation undertook some projects jointly with the State Department in Haiti. This is as clear as can be. I see no point in discussing this further with you given your history of obtuseness and disregard for wiki rules (leading to an editing ban on one of the political pages).
talk) 12:01, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
Yes, this is very simple: "the State Department urged then Haitian President René Préval to intervene". There was no reason to revert this content. SashiRolls (talk) 13:45, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's one sentence that relates to bilateral US-Haiti relations. The rest has nothing to do with it. Seriously, what is your problem? Why is this so difficult to understand?
talk) 13:50, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply
]

A minor but important point: for the Katz book, we absolutely need page numbers. See

WP:PAGENUM, which says for long works like books and treatises, specific page numbers are helpful and necessary so content may be easily verified. Also, why does the book cite link to a C-SPAN clip about the book? Is the intent to cite the book, or an event/talk about the book. Particularly for high-profile, high-importance content like politics, international relations, etc., we cannot be sloppy with this sort of thing. Neutralitytalk 13:58, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply
]

The entire book is about US-Haiti relations, of course. For the 15 times that the US State Dept is mentioned see p. 306 (Index), similarly see p. 302 for the 60 pages or so on which the Clintons are treated, but especially the chapter called "The Governor" pp. 135-155.) For criticism of Caracol, cf. pp. 281-282 (especially 282, the last page of the book. Headed to ANI for the above editor's personal attacks. This is complete BS. As for the link to C-SPAN it is a bonus that allows people interested in learning more about US Haiti relations to learn more about the aftermath of the earthquake. It is a link to the author talking about his book. The Clintons are not mentioned (often at least) in that particular video nor is that the point, it just gives a bit of background info (on Aristide, on Martelly, on Wyclef Jean and Yélé Haiti, etc.) and gives those interested an idea of the author. SashiRolls (talk) 14:37, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I've responded to your concerns,
Snooganssnoogans, since it should be clear to you, a neutral administrator, that neither their behavior nor their criticisms are appropriate based on the detailed information I gave you in the preceding paragraph, no? (ps: all of the above is independently verifiable at Amazon) SashiRolls (talk) 15:04, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
Thank you. However, the page numbers were just one of a number of issues. Putting aside the question, for the moment, of whether material on NGOs/Clinton's post-presidency even belongs here, there's the following problem. Your proposed text draws a linkage between U.S. government opposition to raising the minimum wage and the Clinton Foundation ("has been accompanied by"). But the citation given (Coughlin & Ives in The Nation/Haiti Liberté) doesn't say that at all—in fact, the pieces don't seem to even mention Clinton or the Foundation. It's
failed verification. Neutralitytalk 15:22, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
OK. What we have so far: Clinton, acting as Secretary of State, has actively supported the building of Caracol Industrial Park, with the aid of UN Special Envoy Bill Clinton (named by Ban-Ki Moon) and US AID (A US governmental agency). In her official capacity as Secretary of State, she gave the Keynote Address for its official opening.[1] While US AID wished to focus on housing near Port-au-Prince, the State Department has been pushing for housing to be built around Caracol Industrial Park, which is the Clinton Foundation's project.(see reference 5 above) US Aid, the US Embassy and the State Department all joined Haitian factory owners (who are local contractors for US textile groups like Hanes, Dockers, etc... cf. Bangladesh) in opposing the minimum wage (see references 6 and 7 above and the Center for Economic Policy and Research[2]) (Cheryl Mills was HRC's 2nd in command at State). The minimum wage passed, despite State Department pressure on former president René Préval. (again, see 6 and 7) Since then, garment industry factories have not been respecting the minimum wage, including those based in Caracol Industrial Park [3][4]

References

  1. ^ Claire Lauterbach; Elaine Zuckerman (2013). "Caracol Industrial Park Social and Gender Impacts of Year One of Haiti ' s newest IFI - funded Industrial Park" (PDF). GenderAction. Gender Action. Retrieved 23 September 2016.
  2. ^ CEPR staff (January 12, 2012). "Ten Things Cheryl Mills May Prefer You Not Know About Haiti Today". CEPR: Center for Economic Policy and Research. Retrieved September 23, 2016.
  3. ^ Regan, Jane. "Wage Hike in Haiti Doesn't Address Factory Abuses". InterPress Service. Retrieved 23 September 2016.
  4. ^ Katz, Jonathan (September 10, 2013). "A glittering industrial park in Haiti falls short". Al Jazeera. Retrieved September 23, 2016. In fact, the question of minimum wage could be another drag on investors' interest. Under a recently enacted law, the minimum wage should now be roughly $6.85 a day for garment work. But factory owners have simply refused to pay the higher wages. A recent survey by the International Labor Organization found not a single factory in Haiti currently complying with the new law. Sae-A declined to comment on particulars, stating only that its employees "are compensated in accordance with local laws and regulations."
Do either of you still oppose addition of this historical information about US-Haiti relations,
Snooganssnoogans about disruptive editing, so that improvements can be made to this article -- it's very frustrating to have to deal with reliably sourced and verifiable information being suppressed before I can even begin to work to try to improve this article, which, as you can see above, many think is quite biased. SashiRolls (talk) 17:44, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
I don't think any user has thus far edited disruptively on this article. I think this talk page back-and-forth is kind of what we are all supposed to do. I will have to read through the links in your newest draft before I can comment. Neutralitytalk 18:08, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, I am also asking you to warn the editor about personal attacks as I believe I have before. SashiRolls (talk) 18:21, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to engage in admin action on this article because I am also engaged in current content discussions here. But in any case I've seen no personal attacks from Snooganssnoogans here; just mild frustration. That's no cause to sanction Snoogans or anyone; this is an occasion when it would be wise for all to
drop the stick. Neutralitytalk 19:08, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
You say you are involved in content discussions, but I have responded to your comments with 11 reliable sources for two sentences. You said you would be looking at the evidence I gave you and yet, despite your active editing elsewhere, you haven't -- in fact -- participated further in discussion. I will accordingly be adding back my good faith, reliably sourced edit (slightly modified to include the added sourcing) and hope that you will concede that your support for the ideologically-motivated concerns of
Snooganssnoogans have been sufficiently addressed with these 11 sources for two sentences. I notice the user is developing quite a reputation on Reddit for his actions on Wikipedia. I will add that I don't think it is normal that you require 11 references for two sentences that were already sufficiently supported by the original sources. SashiRolls (talk) 10:47, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
Just recently became aware of this disputed discussion. The Clinton involvement in Haiti has progressed significantly as a direct result of HRC's position as Secretary of State, which she operated as an official ambassador of the United States; speaking for the United States. In other words, you are damn sure that this is Haiti–United States bilateral relation. The United States' former president, BC has dismantled the Haitian rice industry, again as being the top official and chief of staff of the United States of the time, this is in fact a bilateral relation contrary to what
Snooganssnoogans is stating. However, the "Clinton Foundation" can go more in depth with this involvement, but not prior to its formation, which should instead be stated here. To not touch base on it at all (especially to what I saw was removed/reverted), is a call for questioning "neutrality". @SashiRolls; @Neutrality Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:33, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply
]

Request for Comment: garment industry and the minimum wage

The consensus is against the proposed inclusion. Editors were concerned about the text's wording and noted that this is not directly related to US-Haiti relations since the US was not involved in any official capacity. Cunard (talk) 05:02, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can anyone propose any specific improvements to the following proposed text? Do you think it should be added to this page? Why or why not?

Thank you for the time invested in responding to this request for comment!

The

Caracol Industrial Park while Hillary Clinton was at the State Department.[5][6] Factory conditions have been a source of significant criticism.[1][4][7] Although the minimum wage was raised over US Embassy, US AID, and US State Department opposition, [8][9][10] garment factories across the country, including at Caracol Industrial Park, have not been applying the law.[11][12][13]

SashiRolls (talk) 16:37, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What's the problem? This is definitely occurring, as a direct result of this foundation. Savvyjack23 (talk) 02:55, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what the problem is (though I would imagine it will disappear in early-mid November, being -- most likely -- a temporary, electoral problem and not an encyclopedic one). I guess that those who have a problem with the text will tell us below. I for one think it should be included. SashiRolls (talk) 20:59, 8 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No as written the text seems like an editorial, "mixed results", what mixed results? from whose viewpoints?CuriousMind01 (talk) 12:03, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"with mixed results" has been struck, good suggestion. SashiRolls (talk) 16:49, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Probably no While it's nice to see the core criminality of the Clinton family addressed in various places, the extant article is not a legitimate place to include the proposed text, it would be better included in the article covering the Clinton's crimnial enterprise. Damotclese (talk) 15:39, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Nothing criminal about their actions here, I don't think. They're neither the factory owners nor the overseas overseers... This could also go in Haiti-South Korean relations I suppose... Anyway, cleaned the text up a bit so that maybe it might be less offensive to those who are focused on the elections.SashiRolls (talk) 17:14, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I mean the entire paragraph has to be rewritten or deleted, the paragraph is written like a biased editorial, not an encyclopedia of facts and equal viewpoints.

The Clinton Foundation has been involved in Haiti both before and after the 2010 Haiti earthquake.[1][2][3].

Why is this important to state??? Prior to the 2010 earthquake, Bill Clinton had been named special envoy to Haiti by UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon[4]"

why is this relevant?? Delete:"whose connections with the South Korean company Sae-A were later put to work in the creation of the Caracol Industrial Park while Hillary Clinton was at the State Department.[5][6]"

Delete "Factory conditions have been a source of significant criticism.[1][4]" what criticism?? by whom??

Delete: "Although the minimum wage was raised over US Embassy, US AID, and US State Department opposition, [7][8][9]" why is this relevant? what opposition statements? what reasons?

delete: "garment factories across the country, including at Caracol Industrial Park, have not been applying the law.[10][11][12]" This is irrelevant to the article subject and does not explain the facts of not applying. CuriousMind01 (talk) 03:19, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

in response to your questions, because the articles cited point out the importance of these facts (the Clintons are power-brokers in Haiti and have been for years). The articles cited make this clear. For example: "According to Jean-Marie Bourjolly, a Haitian member of the commission, the body’s “original sin” lay in concentrating the decision-making power in the Executive Committee of the Board, made up of Bill Clinton and then–Haitian Prime Minister Jean-Max Bellerive. In October 2010, just six months after its creation, Bourjolly wrote a memorandum to the co-chairs and the rest of the commission’s board. The note cautioned that by “vesting all powers and authority of the Board in the Executive Committee, it is clear that what is expected of us [the rest of the Board] is to act as a rubber-stamping body.” According to Bourjolly, the memorandum was not included in the official minutes of the October meeting at Clinton’s behest, and the document has remained out of the public sphere."[4]
Why? This is very important in the light of Bill Clinton's nomination by Ban Ki-Moon. Since Hillary Clinton inauguarated the Industrial Park it is worth knowing that "Originally the plan was to build the industrial park near Port-au-Prince. But land was readily available in the North, and the hundreds of small farmers who had to be moved from the park’s site were far less resistant than the wealthy land-owners in the capital. So the whole project moved to the Northern Department, to Caracol. Under the banner of decentralization and economic growth, the Caracol Industrial Park, with the Korean textile manufacturer Sae-A as its anchor tenant, became the face of Haiti’s reconstruction." [4]
No reason to delete this sentence. See the references, the critics include Jonathan Katz, Jake Johnston, & Gender Action.
See the cited articles in Haiti Libre and The Nation.
No, this is a consequence of the policy of allowing international interests (US AID, SAE-a, the State Dept., the Clinton Foundation) to swoop in on farmers' lands to build an industrial park where workers are not being paid the (already low) minimum wage in Haiti. This is one aspect of US-Haiti relations; there are surely others. Feel free to provide them. This text, it seems to me, is sufficiently documented. It contains two references that speak positively of Caracol Industrial Park (Clinton's state department speech among them). If you have more, feel free to add them! SashiRolls (talk) 12:26, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fully opposed to SashiRolls's proposed edit. It's full of weasel words, original research, and most problematic of all; the actions of a former President and a non-profit have nothing to do with bilateral US-Haiti relations. I'd like to note that SashiRolls has been banned from editing on wikipedia pages related to Jill Stein for breaking several wikipedia policies, a temporary ban from all editing, and is now here on this page trying to desperately shoehorn criticisms of the Clintons into an unrelated article. The user's history shows that it's completely pointless to try to reason with him/her. The discussion above showcases the obtuseness that got the user banned in the first place.

talk) 12:33, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply
]

My talk page is an open book. Yours too. I've done my time for taking you to ANI; I would think it's time for you to move on and stick to editing the various Trump, Brock, and Clinton pages that you follow daily rather than following me... not sure why I worry an ordinary editor so much... I will not try to convince you, personally. So the NYTimes is an RS too no? seriously Sir Snoog (or Madame Snoog, I'm still not sure...), spend the ten minutes watching the (neutral) video... this isn't all about the Clintons but about lived human experience that deserves to be treated encyclopedically: US-Haiti relations, investment banks, Walmart suppliers, housing, work, ... but I'd rather someone else take this and write something more neutral than I am (perhaps) capable of... ^^ --> [7] SashiRolls (talk) 14:33, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
IMO, this paragraph isn't about US-Haiti relations, as the US is not involved in any official capacity, and hence it should not be included.
Rwenonah (talk) 20:55, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
I had some time to look into it further and have decided the above paragraph should be included in Caracol Industrial Park, whereas only two sentences which uncontroversially show US government involvement have been added to the page: On May 24, 2010, the Haiti Econcomic Lift Program (HELP) was signed into US law, ensuring preferential tariffs for Haitian-produced garments.
Caracol industrial park.[15][16][4][17][18]. In making this edit, I have taken into account the comments prior to yours. This seems to me to be a satisfactory compromise: the facts strictly related to US-Haiti relations are presented without going into detail concerning all the US contractors making money on the contracts in this particular article.SashiRolls (talk) 21:05, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Do not include -
    WP:CONTEXT as the article has no section for the RFC title "garment industry and the minimum wage", And - the text itself seems just a collection of unconnected sentences not related and too short to understand. First it's talking about a foundation presence but not stating a date; second is 3 tidbits about UN and Bill; then factory conditions ... it's just jumping about. Markbassett (talk) 03:20, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply
    ]


References

  1. ^ a b Katz, Jonathan (May 4, 2015). "The King and Queen of Haiti". Politico. Retrieved September 21, 2016.
  2. ISBN 978-0-230-34187-6
    . Retrieved September 21, 2016.
  3. ^ Katz, Jonathan (September 2, 2015). "The Clintons' Haiti Screw-Up, As Told By Hillary's Emails". Politico. Retrieved September 21, 2016.
  4. ^ a b c d e Johnston, Jake (January 16, 2014). "Outsourcing Haiti: How disaster relief became a disaster of its own". Boston Review. Retrieved September 22, 2016.
  5. ^ Haiti Libre Staff (24 October 2012). "Haiti - Economy : The SONAPI proud of its Caracol Industrial Park". Haiti Libre. Retrieved 22 September 2016.
  6. ^ Hillary Clinton (October 22, 2012). "Remarks at the Caracol Industrial Park Opening Ceremony". US Department of State. Retrieved September 23, 2016.
  7. ^ a b Sontag, Deborah (Julty 5, 2012). "Earthquake Relief Where Haiti Wasn't Broken". NY Times. Retrieved October 11, 2016. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  8. ^ CEPR staff (January 12, 2012). "Ten Things Cheryl Mills May Prefer You Not Know About Haiti Today". CEPR: Center for Economic Policy and Research. Retrieved September 23, 2016.
  9. ^ Dan Coughlin; Kim Ives (June 1, 2011). "WikiLeaks Haiti: Let Them Live on $3 a Day". The Nation. Retrieved September 22, 2016.
  10. ^ Dan Coughlin; Kim Ives (25 May 2011). "Washington Backed Famous Brand-Name Contractors in Fight Against Haiti's Minimum Wage Increase". Haiti Liberté. Vol. 4, no. 45. Retrieved September 22, 2016.
  11. ^ Claire Lauterbach; Elaine Zuckerman (2013). "Caracol Industrial Park Social and Gender Impacts of Year One of Haiti's newest IFI - funded Industrial Park" (PDF). GenderAction. Gender Action. Retrieved September 23, 2016.
  12. ^ Regan, Jane (December 3, 2013). "Wage Hike in Haiti Doesn't Address Factory Abuses". InterPress Service. Retrieved September 23, 2016.
  13. ^ Katz, Jonathan (September 10, 2013). "A glittering industrial park in Haiti falls short". Al Jazeera. Retrieved September 23, 2016. In fact, the question of minimum wage could be another drag on investors' interest. Under a recently enacted law, the minimum wage should now be roughly $6.85 a day for garment work. But factory owners have simply refused to pay the higher wages. A recent survey by the International Labor Organization found not a single factory in Haiti currently complying with the new law. Sae-A declined to comment on particulars, stating only that its employees "are compensated in accordance with local laws and regulations."
  14. ^ "HR 5160: Haiti Economic Lift Program". govtrack. Retrieved 14 October 2016.
  15. ^ Hillary Clinton (October 22, 2012). "Remarks at the Caracol Industrial Park Opening Ceremony". US Department of State. Retrieved September 23, 2016.
  16. ^ Susana Ferreira; Andrew Quinn (22 October 2012). "Clintons preside at star-studded opening of Haitian industrial park". Reuters. Retrieved 14 October 2016.
  17. ^ Katz, Jonathan (September 10, 2013). "A glittering industrial park in Haiti falls short". Al Jazeera. Retrieved September 23, 2016. In fact, the question of minimum wage could be another drag on investors' interest. Under a recently enacted law, the minimum wage should now be roughly $6.85 a day for garment work. But factory owners have simply refused to pay the higher wages. A recent survey by the International Labor Organization found not a single factory in Haiti currently complying with the new law. Sae-A declined to comment on particulars, stating only that its employees "are compensated in accordance with local laws and regulations."
  18. ^ Claire Lauterbach; Elaine Zuckerman (2013). "Caracol Industrial Park Social and Gender Impacts of Year One of Haiti's newest IFI - funded Industrial Park" (PDF). GenderAction. Gender Action. p. 35. Retrieved September 23, 2016.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Uncited description of Thomas Jefferson views towards slavery and manumission

In the history section when describing events during the Jefferson admin, the following comment is made without citation: the United States under President Jefferson (a Virginia slaveowner who only supported manumission of African-Americans from slavery on the condition of voluntary removal to Africa)...

This statement is unsupported by the wiki link to the Jefferson article. Please provide a link or citation to verify this statement. Dperry4930 (talk) 19:44, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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