Talk:Kurram District

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Combine with Kurram River?

I propose to add the information from the article on the

Kurram River to this one as they cover much of the same information. I also propose to keep it all under the heading of the Kurram Valley - as that covers more territory - not just the river, and I have more information on recent archaeological finds in the region and more references which I intend to add when I can spare the time. If anyone has any comments on this proposed move I would appreciate them. John Hill (talk) 02:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply
]

Why it is part of project Afghanistan???

Kurram valley is completely in Pakistan and only shares border with Afghanistan. Why this is included in Project Afghanistan?? Anyone can answer please?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.27.192.9 (talk) 06:06, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Its because the Tribal Areas are a disputed area in Pakistan and the main inhabitants are Pashtuns who also belong to Afghanistan. Akmal94 (talk) 07:38, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Merge it with Kurram Agency

Yes, I think you are right that it should be merged with Kurram river page. In the same light this page should be merged with Kurram Agency page. The scope of the two articles being the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Waleedmansoor (talk • contribs) 07:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC) --Waleedmansoor (talk) 07:31, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merged with Kurram Agency and other major changes

Merged with Kurram Agency and Kurram River. I think the structure is now there to expand it further. All contributions would be highly welcome.

Restart Flora and Fauna section.

The flora and fauna section removed on Feb. 5 2010 for the reason that it "said nothing" needs to be restarted. The section needed expansion and is important because it was the only valley in the northwest British India for which flora had been scientifically described as early as 1879 (before annexation, when it was a part of Afghanistan). Citations are available in The Imperial Indian Gazette and many scientific journals indexed. Of particular importance is the Artimesia spp. peculiar to the valley and therefore scientifically named after the Valley "Artemisia Kurramensis" in 1951. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Irshijee (talk • contribs) 21:54, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Merger and split

I really think that

Kurram River
should be separated from this article again. It covers a much longer area than the valley - it is an Afghan river as well as a Pakistani river. A section on an Afghan river does not sit well in an article about a Pakistani valley.

On the other hand, there is a lot of overlap with

Kurram Agency, and this article would be better merged with that article, --Mhockey (talk) 20:54, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply
]

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Undiscussed moves

@

WP:RM. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 21:53, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

@
Khestwol: Please check this and let me know what is your objection on these moves? Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 03:52, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
  • @
    Khestwol did not reply to my comment for six days, how is this still controversial? They just made a premature request to get the moves reverted, it's an administration change for these regions, no matter how many folks disagree, it will not change the material fact on the ground. They just cannot get over the fact that Pakistan changed the administration of these areas considering their longstanding POV. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 14:53, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    @SheriffIsInTown: it looks like a lot of news sources are generally still saying "agency", even as of late May, see for example [1]. The version with "district" doesn't get a lot of hits. It looks like there's enough doubt that a requested move for the group would be in order.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:15, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Amakuru: President of Pakistan signed the amendment on 31 May, that is probably why you wouldn't find anything as of late May, see below move discussion, I have added many sources there supporting the moves. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 18:54, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 June 2018

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move
. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. Consensus is clear, and although the policy questions are closer than the consensus would suggest, it is not impermissible to move articles to a recently enacted new official title, which is likely to be the title used in official documents and all references flowing from them in the future. bd2412 T 20:25, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

– Support as nominator: Pakistan’s parliament passed a

constitutional amendment to change the status of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas from a semi-autonomous region to be merged with one of the existing provinces i.e. Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. As part of the measure the status of all existing agencies is changed to a District as it is in the rest of Pakistan and the status of all Frontier Regions is changed to a Subdivision. This should be treated as an administrative change and there should not be much dispute regarding this. The details about the measure can be found in this source
. The source states Erstwhile seven tribal agencies will now be called tribal districts and existing tehsils and six Frontier regions will be termed subdivisions.

Thus, please move these pages as an administrative change even if there is a dispute. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 14:21, 29 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Their argument regarding confusion about Subdivision and Tehsil falls on its face as Subdivision is totally separate tier than Tehsil in Pakistan and we cannot use a reference of a Wikipedia article for decision making. This reliable source regarding another recent decision by the government uses the word upgrade when certain tehsils status was changed to subdivision thus the administrative tiers in Pakistan are Tehsil --> Subdivision --> District --> Division --> Province. The source says The provincial government has formally created five more tehsils and upgraded another to a subdivision.....government had notified Suo and Urban Basha as tehsils of the Upper Kohistan district, Ranovali Pinkhad the Lower Kohistan district’s and Battar Kolai the Palas district’s and Dormerra Torghar district’s, while Kundai had been declared the Upper Kohistan district’s subdivision.....He said the newly-notified tehsils and subdivision would soon get the required staff members.
Govt awards status of subdivision to another tehsil
We (PTI government) believe in empowering the people through bifurcation of large districts and tehsils and these four tehsils and a subdivision have been created in line with that thought.
These above quotes from the source clearly describe that there is a difference between a tehsil and subdivision. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:41, 1 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"-wikipedia" (minus Wikipedia) was added to eliminate Wikipedia from the search results to be unbiased. Your proposed names get very little hits in the search results (some of them get absolutely no hits at all).
Khestwol (talk) 04:01, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Please no
Khestwol (talk) 11:36, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
I already showed you, the source in nomination is a
WP:RS. What else you want? Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 11:42, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
You failed to prove how your proposed names are more common than the current names. Some of your proposed names (including "Dera Ismail Khan Subdivision" and "Lakki Marwat Subdivision", see above) return absolutely 0 results. This proves they are not commonly used.
Khestwol (talk) 13:50, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
The current names are still more common than the proposed names as demonstrated in my !vote above.
Khestwol (talk) 13:50, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
You demonstrated nothing in your vote above, your searches were faulty, they included word wikipedia and they included everything published to date but in this case anything published before 31 May 2018 exclusive of that day does not count as per
WP:NAMECHANGES as that is the date when President of Pakistan signed that amendment. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 16:02, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Comment: Khestwol’s searches are inclusive of everything to date, according to
    WP:NAMECHANGES
    , sources before the official name change do not count.
Here are some of the sources published after the constitutional amendment (30 May 2018) referring them as districts and subdivisions:
  1. Trailblazing Ali Begum sets up Kurram District's first-ever election office for women
  2. Above 340,000 voters to exercise their right of franchise for the National Assembly seats NA-45 and NA-46 of Kurram district.
  3. The temporarily-displaced people of Kurram district opposed procedure of rehabilitation of the displaced families
  4. Special anti-polio drive starts in Bajaur today….children under five years of age would be given oral polio vaccine (OPV) across the district.
  5. northwestern Bajaur district of KP
  6. in Bajaur….Confirming the incident, officials of the district administration said…..he said that the district administration had launched investigation into the incident
  7. in Mamond tehsil of Bajaur district
  8. Bajaur elder withdraws papers in favour of JUI-F candidate….He made the announcement during a press conference. JUI-F local leaders including its district head Maulana Abdur Rashid
  9. This was stated in a meeting between the Mohmand District Deputy Commissioner and Returning Officer (DRO)
  10. the group said in a statement texted to local journalists in Pakistan's Bajaur district
  11. list of all the health facilities in newly established districts of Bajaur, Mohmand, Kurram, Khyber, Orakzai
  12. list of healthcare facilities in the newly named districts of Bajaur, Mohmand, Khyber, Orakzai, Kurram
  13. list of healthcare facilities in the newly named districts of Bajaur, Mohmand, Khyber, Orakzai, Kurram
  14. districts of Mohmand, Bajaur
  15. districts including Bajaur has registered maximum 492,732 voters followed by Khyber 491,844 voters, Kurram 337,865 voters, South Waziristan 324,165, Mohmand 255,523, North Waziristan 274,205, Orakzai 167,206
  16. BAJAUR,(UrduPoint / Pakistan Point News - 2nd Jul, 2018 ) :Provincial President of Awami National Party(ANP) Ameer Haider Khan Hoti will address a public rally here at district headquarter Khar
  17. Further to the east is that amazing upland country of the Khyber and Orakzai districts……. Northward lie the districts of Mohmand and Bajaur
  18. Sugar, wheat flour prices rise in Mohmand district
  19. Merged with K-P: Mohmand becomes district
  20. the door-to-door anti-polio campaign in Mohmand district
  21. The delegation demanded special economic zones in the merged districts.
  22. It consists of seven districts - Bajaur, Khyber, Kurram, Mohmand, North Waziristan, Orakzai and South Waziristan
  23. district administration of Mohmand said
  24. After a gap of around a year, the Mohmand district administration has released salaries
  25. A lady health worker from district Mohmand was posted at the disposal of district health officer Peshawar.
  26. newly named districts of Bajaur, Mohmand, Khyber, Orakzai, Kurram
  27. Justice Musarat Hilal has also dismissed appeals of NTC against former MNA Malik Bilal Rehman contesting on NA-42 Mohmand district
  28. MNA Malik Bilal Rehman contesting from NA-42 of Mohmand district
  29. a protest camp in Khyber district’s Jamrud town on Monday.
  30. (NAB) has decided to launch inquiries against officials of political administration South Waziristan and Khyber districts for embezzlement of funds.
  31. (Wapda) will be working on building a dam in Mohmand district.
  32. Khyber Union football team of Khyber district won the thrilling final
  33. Pashto poets from Mardan, Dir, Malakand, Peshawar and other parts of Khyber district presented poetic tributes
  34. no anti-state elements would be allowed to disturb the law and order situation in the Orakzai district
  35. Kurram Agency, for example, would now be called Kurram district. Tehsils and frontier regions would be renamed as sub-divisions, so, FR Bannu would be referred to as Bannu sub-division Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 18:46, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is cherry picking. You have ignored all the recent sources which use "Agency" and "Frontier Region". Also, again, how many times reliable sources use the proposed names "Dera Ismail Khan Subdivision" and "Lakki Marwat Subdivision"? And how many times do the reliable sources use the current names "Frontier Region Dera Ismail Khan" and "Frontier Region Lakki Marwat"? I am sure the current names are more common than the proposed names, even in recent sources.
Khestwol (talk) 03:46, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
This is no cherry picking, you are opposing the move, it is your job to tell us how many sources used agency in the name after 31 May, I only countered a couple. Do you think there are more, show us but they ought to be published after 31 May. You are using tactics like using unrelated terms in your searches and including all searches to date to show everyone there are more results for agency in the name but that is not according to
WP:NAMECHANGES. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 10:37, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
The burden of proof is on the nominator who wants to change the 11 titles, not me. Some of your proposed names get absolutely 0 results in Google News (neither found in older, nor recent news). My search results are straightforward. Can you show us even one "unrelated term" that you are claiming?
Khestwol (talk) 17:42, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

Search engine results

Search engine results show that the current names are more common than the proposed names, by a very big margin (more than twice; in some cases, more than 200 times more common). Most of the proposed names get absolutely 0 results in Google News. So as far as I know, as per Wikipedia's policies, it is impossible to move these 11 articles:

  1. The current "Frontier Region Bannu" gets 4,150 results in Google, 212 results in Google News, and 118 results in Google Books, but the proposed "Bannu Subdivision" gets only 64 results in Google, absolutely 0 results in Google News, and 10 results in Google Books.
  2. The current "Frontier Region Dera Ismail Khan" gets 2,670 results in Google, 5 results in Google News, and 212 results in Google Books, but the proposed "Dera Ismail Khan Subdivision" gets only 103 results in Google, absolutely 0 results in Google News, and 10 results in Google Books.
  3. The current "Frontier Region Kohat" gets 8,200 results in Google, 96 results in Google News, and 163 results in Google Books, but the proposed "Kohat Subdivision" gets only 70 results in Google, absolutely 0 results in Google News, and 42 results in Google Books.
  4. The current "Frontier Region Lakki Marwat" gets 2,130 results in Google, 2 results in Google News, and 190 results in Google Books, but the proposed "Lakki Marwat Subdivision" gets only 67 results in Google, absolutely 0 results in Google News, and 10 results in Google Books.
  5. The current "Frontier Region Peshawar" gets 31,200 results in Google, 157 results in Google News, and 231 results in Google Books, but the proposed "Peshawar Subdivision" gets only 55 results in Google, absolutely 0 results in Google News, and 37 results in Google Books.
  6. The current "Frontier Region Tank" gets 4,230 results in Google, 56 results in Google News, and 59 results in Google Books, but the proposed "Tank Subdivision" gets only 361 results in Google, absolutely 0 results in Google News, and 33 results in Google Books.
  7. The current "Kurram Agency" gets 375,000 results in Google, 5,990 results in Google News, and 7,130 results in Google Books, but the proposed "Kurram District" gets only 60,000 results in Google, 8,870 results in Google News, and 360 results in Google Books.
  8. The current "Bajaur Agency" gets 291,000 results in Google, 4,150 results in Google News, and 3,637 results in Google Books, but the proposed "Bajaur District" gets only 6,110 results in Google, 91 results in Google News, and 340 results in Google Books.
  9. The current "Mohmand Agency" gets 353,000 results in Google, 7,590 results in Google News, and 4,360 results in Google Books, but the proposed "Mohmand District" gets only 5,630 results in Google, 112 results in Google News, and 259 results in Google Books.
  10. The current "Khyber Agency" gets 456,000 results in Google, 11,500 results in Google News, and 9,420 results in Google Books, but the proposed "Khyber District" gets only 10,200 results in Google, 299 results in Google News, and 487 results in Google Books.
  11. The current "Orakzai Agency" gets 244,000 results in Google, 2,750 results in Google News, and 2,990 results in Google Books, but the proposed "Orakzai District" gets only 2,500 results in Google, 10 results in Google News, and 120 results in Google Books.
    Khestwol (talk) 17:42, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Most of the proposed names (i.e. six out of the eleven proposed names) get absolutely 0 results in Google News. So evidence (no matter whether old, or recent) goes against the proposal.
Khestwol (talk) 19:02, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
This is epic misleading and misinformation from you. All of the frontier regions which you are purporting to show more than 0 results for current names are actually 0 results after 31 May 2018, none of those frontier region results have a published date after 31 May 2018 instead what you are showing 0 results for proposed names are actually not 0 results, here are some of the results confirming that frontier regions have been changed to subdivisions.
Proof that frontier regions have been changed to subdivisions
  1. It will be the first campaign launched after KP-FATA merger which will continue till July 4 in all tribal districts and subdivisions except Orakzai and Kurram.
  2. Kurram Agency, for example, would now be called Kurram district. Tehsils and frontier regions would be renamed as sub-divisions, so, FR Bannu would be referred to as Bannu sub-division’’’
Current names show 0 results after 31 May 2018 for frontier regions
SheriffIsInTown: Did you even check the links before posting them? Your statements are highly self-contradictory, because your own links you gave above disprove your own claim that "current names show 0 results after 31 May 2018 for frontier regions". Here are some examples of the links from June and July 2018, found from the Google News search, which use the current names in the "Frontier Region" format: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8]. Additionally, some news articles also use the abbreviation "FR" format (i.e. "FR Peshawar", "FR Bannu", etc); some examples: [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18].
Khestwol (talk) 10:08, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
@
WP:NCPLACE should apply here because we're not proposing to change the name of the place but terms for administrative division. Why not get over it and move on? --Saqib (talk) 17:50, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
I do not think a consensus can be developed here until the opposing reasoning rationale is responded to and refuted. As per the Wikipedia's policy explained in the article
Khestwol (talk) 10:08, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

I already answered your rationale, your rationale is based on bogus results, you are displaying

disruptive editing. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 14:32, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

SheriffInTown: no
Khestwol (talk) 16:42, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Khestwol (talk) 11:30, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
Yes sorry. I am supporting the move of all 11 articles. In my view there is little evidence to support the move of the (Frontier Region -> Subdivision), but equally limited evidence to suggest keeping them in their current location would be better. It is conventional to maintain consistency wherever possible. Thus all the articles should be moved to the new official names. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 11:38, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion the current names are better. The problem with the last six names, especially, is that not a single news article refers to the six
Khestwol (talk) 13:27, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
With most of the regions, only a few sources ever covered them in all time (all time being the time Google holds data). It is my view that neither the old names or the new names have sufficient common usage to become an overriding commonly recognisable name. Thus we are left with choosing between the old official name or the new official name. The official name change is sourced and the fact the official names have changed is not being argued. Plus there will be redirects from the old names, so anyone with out of date information will be automatically sent to the correct article. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 13:39, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Each term returns results in Google Search 1000s of times, which I think is not "few sources". Some of the more popular articles like "Khyber Agency" return results much more. However, clearly the new official names are not preferred by even the current sources. So, it is too early yet to move the 11 articles. There is no rush, we better wait.
Khestwol (talk) 15:33, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

You are again spreading misinformation by saying 1000s of sources. Read

WP:NAMECHANGES, it seems only you understand the policies, nobody else does who supported these moves and who tried to move on their own. Your POV agenda will not prevail here. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 15:45, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]

The common name policy is equally important as
WP:NAMECHANGES, everyone is arguing within policies. The point is that a few sources (or 1000s of Google results) on the prior official names does not suggest we should not move the articles to their new official names. The key is that the previous name was used by the article and sources because it was the official name at the time, there is now a new official name. In the interests of keeping Wikipedia up to date it would make sense to move. This is why I have supported the move, and it is unlikely I will change my mind because I have given the subject some thought. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 18:59, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
@
Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy
, once we already have an evidence of overwhelming adaptation of new designations then it's just a matter of time and considering that we should move them once we have that much consensus developing and that much effort already put in place:
List of sources
  1. Trailblazing Ali Begum sets up Kurram District's first-ever election office for women
  2. Above 340,000 voters to exercise their right of franchise for the National Assembly seats NA-45 and NA-46 of Kurram district.
  3. The temporarily-displaced people of Kurram district opposed procedure of rehabilitation of the displaced families
  4. Special anti-polio drive starts in Bajaur today….children under five years of age would be given oral polio vaccine (OPV) across the district.
  5. northwestern Bajaur district of KP
  6. in Bajaur….Confirming the incident, officials of the district administration said…..he said that the district administration had launched investigation into the incident
  7. in Mamond tehsil of Bajaur district
  8. Bajaur elder withdraws papers in favour of JUI-F candidate….He made the announcement during a press conference. JUI-F local leaders including its district head Maulana Abdur Rashid
  9. This was stated in a meeting between the Mohmand District Deputy Commissioner and Returning Officer (DRO)
  10. the group said in a statement texted to local journalists in Pakistan's Bajaur district
  11. list of all the health facilities in newly established districts of Bajaur, Mohmand, Kurram, Khyber, Orakzai
  12. list of healthcare facilities in the newly named districts of Bajaur, Mohmand, Khyber, Orakzai, Kurram
  13. list of healthcare facilities in the newly named districts of Bajaur, Mohmand, Khyber, Orakzai, Kurram
  14. districts of Mohmand, Bajaur
  15. districts including Bajaur has registered maximum 492,732 voters followed by Khyber 491,844 voters, Kurram 337,865 voters, South Waziristan 324,165, Mohmand 255,523, North Waziristan 274,205, Orakzai 167,206
  16. BAJAUR,(UrduPoint / Pakistan Point News - 2nd Jul, 2018 ) :Provincial President of Awami National Party(ANP) Ameer Haider Khan Hoti will address a public rally here at district headquarter Khar
  17. Further to the east is that amazing upland country of the Khyber and Orakzai districts……. Northward lie the districts of Mohmand and Bajaur
  18. Sugar, wheat flour prices rise in Mohmand district
  19. Merged with K-P: Mohmand becomes district
  20. the door-to-door anti-polio campaign in Mohmand district
  21. The delegation demanded special economic zones in the merged districts. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 09:43, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  22. It consists of seven districts - Bajaur, Khyber, Kurram, Mohmand, North Waziristan, Orakzai and South Waziristan
  23. district administration of Mohmand said
  24. After a gap of around a year, the Mohmand district administration has released salaries
  25. A lady health worker from district Mohmand was posted at the disposal of district health officer Peshawar.
  26. newly named districts of Bajaur, Mohmand, Khyber, Orakzai, Kurram
  27. Justice Musarat Hilal has also dismissed appeals of NTC against former MNA Malik Bilal Rehman contesting on NA-42 Mohmand district
  28. MNA Malik Bilal Rehman contesting from NA-42 of Mohmand district
  29. a protest camp in Khyber district’s Jamrud town on Monday.
  30. (NAB) has decided to launch inquiries against officials of political administration South Waziristan and Khyber districts for embezzlement of funds.
  31. (Wapda) will be working on building a dam in Mohmand district.
  32. Khyber Union football team of Khyber district won the thrilling final
  33. Pashto poets from Mardan, Dir, Malakand, Peshawar and other parts of Khyber district presented poetic tributes
  34. no anti-state elements would be allowed to disturb the law and order situation in the Orakzai district
  35. Kurram Agency, for example, would now be called Kurram district. Tehsils and frontier regions would be renamed as sub-divisions, so, FR Bannu would be referred to as Bannu sub-division Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 09:43, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Right, and if we look at the agency to district switch in isolation, there does seem to be more evidence to support it. That being the case, I'm wondering why you introduced the frontier regions into the RM. I would have an easier job evaluating this if those were excluded. (Also, I've put a collapse around your list of sources above, to keep the conversation flow intact, hope that's OK). Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 12:06, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Amakuru: Since, I was basing the change on that constitutional amendment and the amendment included Frontier Regions to Subdivision change as well so I decided to include them all in one go! Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 13:20, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for the reasons put out by SherrifIsInTown. It's just common sense. We very rarely should deviate from official names for entities like districts/counties/provinces, and this is not one of those cases. —innotata 02:24, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move
. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Kurram_District&oldid=1220509822"