Talk:List of spaghetti Westerns

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Il terrore dell'Oklahoma

I had to correct a mistake: the first known spaghetti western is not "savage Guns" (1961), but "Il Terrore dell'Oklahoma" (1959), an entirely Italian production directed by Mario Amendola. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.34.171.246 (talk) 01:40, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting proposal

I propose that we split this list into two articles:

  1. List of Spaghetti Western films = Italian productions or co-productions
  2. List of Euro-Western films = non-Italian European productions

The reasons for this are as follows:

  1. This list is getting very long (currently over 600 films)
  2. Most people looking for a list of Spaghetti Westerns would expect it to be a list of Italian produced films
  3. It would agree with definitions in the parent articles Western (genre) and Spaghetti Western
  4. It would encourage development of the list of non-Italian Euro-Western films separately

Each page would contain a reference/link to the other one.

If there are no objections then I will make a start on splitting it. --Njb19 (talk) 15:15, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:List of Western subgenres which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:34, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 24 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. No super compelling reason has been given to override the uppercased "Western" naming convention common on similar articles. The last multi-move did not attract much participation. I suggest that if someone opens another multi-move that it should be hosted on Talk:Spaghetti Western where it may attract more eyeballs. There is consensus to lowercase "Spaghetti". (closed by non-admin page mover) Schierbecker (talk) 05:46, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:GENRECAPS, "spaghetti" is not a proper noun and should not be capped. It is no different than "contemporary Western", "neo-Western", "science fiction Western", and other subgenres that do not begin with a proper noun. I am opening this as a controversial move discussion rather than requesting a technical move as there are editors who have noted that "Spaghetti" is longstanding consensus (a suggestion I disagree with based on GENRECAPS). With that in mind, if consensus is to move, it will require a technical move request to preserve edit history as there is a redirect in place at the suggested location. ButlerBlog (talk) 14:46, 24 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BD2412 T 04:01, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

No disrespect Butlerblog, and after much thought I've struck the controversial comment as I'm not really sure if Dicklyon knows his westerns or not (films, books, boots on the ground, etc.). Randy Kryn (talk) 13:12, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We're good - I didn't take it as disrespect, nor uncivil. But thanks for the strike, just the same. ButlerBlog (talk) 15:01, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And you're right, you know a lot more about westerns that I do. I perhaps know more about Wikipedia capitalization style though. Dicklyon (talk) 03:36, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That was unnecessary. I did not suggest that I know more than anyone - it was a lighthearted response to Randy, and I did not mention you nor what you do or don't know. ButlerBlog (talk) 18:55, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"about 75% of the time - less than a threshold of about 80% for ngram evidence" seems to be splitting some mighty close hairs. 75% seems more than enough to keep something uppercased, that's in common name recognition range. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: To clarify, within the scope of this discussion, whether "Westerns" is capitalized or not is an "all or none" issue (as previously discussed in the subgenre move discussion). There are many subgenres and there needs to be consistency of how they are presented, whatever that is determined to be (which as of right now is "no consensus", and I would argue that present long-standing consensus is to capitalize Westerns, whether traditional or a subgenre). This is only about "spaghetti". And my reasoning in presenting this was simply for consistency across subgenres because it is currently the only Western subgenre consisting of two words ("something" western) where we are capitalizing where the name of the subgenre is not a proper noun. Prior to Cinderella157's input, I was inclined to withdraw as I don't see this presently going anywhere and I'm fine leaving it status quo ante. I get that some people love ngrams, but as someone who spends a good deal of time in the Westerns project digging through sources for those articles, I see it differently. I will concede that on a practical level (i.e. actually searching for, looking at, and reading sources), I see a closer percentage relationship between all three possible combinations of S/spaghetti W/western than the other subgenres, but for most other subgenres, it is not as close a relationship. But my contention is that, given the close relationship between the three possibilities, I'm looking for consistency with the other subgenres. Considering Dicklyon's obsession with caps MOS and the outcome of the previous discussion, I was hoping for some level of meeting me halfway on this, but that's clearly never going to happen; and likewise, I'm equally as rigid on the necessity that there is no practical reason for "spaghetti western" without discussion of all subgenres as a whole for reasons already mentioned, and we've already just had that discussion (which you all already know). Since no one from the Westerns project (or anyone else) has weighed in on this one, if you're all fine with me withdrawing at this point, I'll withdraw the move request. Otherwise, we'll keep it open the full term and allow an uninvolved editor to close it as what clearly is going to be "opposed"/status quo/no move/whatever. ButlerBlog (talk) 15:14, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    If we want consistency, we'd lowercase western in all genres. Sources are pretty clear that a lot of them are usually lowercase. But it's not an all or none issue as you say. Dicklyon (talk) 03:45, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to
    MOS:CAPS we should only capitalise if a substantial majority of sources do so. Indeed, the proposed form is down in third place so certainly no substantial majority there.  — Amakuru (talk) 06:32, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    For the reasons noted above, that's not the move suggestion, nor can it be part of this discussion. ButlerBlog (talk) 11:14, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure what you mean by "nor can it be part of this discussion". Per
    MOS:CAPS has a much higher bar for capitalising than even simple 50/50 usage, it seems like a no brainer that the move should go ahead. The parent article Spaghetti Western should also be moved in the same way.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:01, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    I thought it was clear in my note above, but moving to "spaghetti western" creates a practical problem of consistency. There are a few dozen subgenres of Western, and some crossover genres. If you move this page to "spaghetti western" and carry forward with lowercasing it across the various articles, you're going to run into consistency issues when the same article discusses "revisionist Western"[1], "neo-Western"[2], or some other crossover (which does happen a lot when dealing with subgenres). This is why I said that the discussion of lowercasing "western" in the subgenres needs to be an all-or-none discussion, taken as a whole rather than as a part. Longstanding is that Western is capitalized, and we just wrapped up an overarching discussion of a number of the subgenres as a whole that was closed as no consensus (Talk:List of Western subgenres#Requested move 12 July 2023). This move came out of a suggestion within that discussion. There are three possible outcomes, but if the move to "spaghetti Western" is opposed, the better option in this case is to leave it status quo for the reason that I outlined above. ButlerBlog (talk) 12:46, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Referring to your note, the previous RM was no consensus. While the result is to retain the status quo, "no consensus" means just what it says - there was no consensus either way with respect to capitalising western. There is no long-standing consensus to be argued. One can make an argument here for
    WP:CONSISTENT. However, doing so is to argue consistency with a form of capitalisation for which there is no consensus. While consistency between articles is a "nice to have", ultimately, an article need only be consistent within itself - and this is not precluded by the capitalisation (or other variations in language) used in related articles that may be referred to in a particular article. As for your ngrams, it was resolved at the previous RM that the ngram part of speech function is not efficacious in these instances since the evidence is that it appears to treat attributive noun phrases as adjectives. Seaching for x westerns, however, is much more specific to the cowboy genre, and excludes references for Western, meaning occidental and similar. Here, revisionist westerns is only slightly less than revisionist Westerns and Revisionist Westerns is only a small percentage that may be attributed largely to use of title case. It should not be capitalised at all. Neo-westerns has only a small representation in the corpus, such that the results tend to represent individual book releases (see here) and the usage is quite mixed. Again, the results do not support capitalisation at all. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:09, 29 July 2023 (UTC) Correction: x westerns. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:26, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    This is probably a better ngram. Dekimasuよ! 06:24, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Either way. Your ngram only goes to prove that wester/westerns in spaghetti western|s is not capped in a substantial majority of sources per
    WP:NCCAPS. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:07, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Move to
    List of spaghetti westerns per above discussion (note that this is an additional !vote on top of my initial "Strong Oppose" of the original proposal). Dicklyon (talk) 17:17, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Support While I'm not a huge fan of mixed capitalization, I'm concerned this might be a back door to changing "Western" to "western," in spite of literary and academic norms and the result of the original discussion. For me, literary and academic norms are more important than our arbitrary MoS stuff. And the weakness of things like ngrams is they only look at the internet and are easily overwhelmed by random articles and frankly substandard sources. If it takes a lowercase 's' to retain the proper form of Western, I'm ok with it. Intothatdarkness 18:41, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Just to clarify, by the result of the original discussion, you're referring toTalk:List of Western subgenres#Requested move 12 July 2023, correct? ButlerBlog (talk) 19:01, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Correct. I should have made that clear. Intothatdarkness 20:06, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm concerned this might be a back door to changing "Western" to "western," in spite of literary and academic norms and the result of the original discussion - I would strongly agree with that assessment. And unfortunately, that appears to be what is being pushed by those that only take a cursory look at this discussion, without considering the whole along with the previous discussion. ButlerBlog (talk) 15:14, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I hate these discussions but feel that we should keep it at Spaghetti Westerns. Carptrash (talk) 21:14, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I would not be opposed to this option. I've seen it go both ways, honestly, at least when it comes to these particular movies. Intothatdarkness 00:29, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lowercase "spaghetti": This is a genre (or subgenre), and per
    MOS:GENRECAPS, we don't cap genres. Whether or not we capitalize "western" can be argued as a reference to a particular place, but I don't see any good argument for capitalizing "spaghetti". Probably we shouldn't capitalize "western" either, per Amakuru, but definitely we shouldn't capitalize "spaghetti". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:42, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Oppose - Best to keep the status quo. I can't recall seeing "List of spaghetti Westerns", very often. GoodDay (talk) 23:46, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per my comments at the other discussion, but this looks like no consensus. That said, at least as importantly, oppose the alternative
    List of spaghetti westerns. Given that downcasing of "Westerns" was rejected in the broader move discussion at Talk:List of Western subgenres just a week ago, that suggestion would just eliminate the current consistency among related titles. Dekimasuよ! 06:20, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Support:
    MOS:GENRECAPS: "Names of genres (such as musical or literary) are not capitalized unless they contain a proper name." Seems simple to me. Western is debatable, but spaghetti is not. SchreiberBike | ⌨  20:12, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Support per
    MOS:GENRECAPS. Neither "spaghetti" nor (in this context) "western" are proper names. When "Western" is a proper name it refers to Western culture.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:43, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
    Sounds like you mean to support the alternative with both lowercased then. Dicklyon (talk) 21:06, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support
    List of spaghetti westerns per above reasoning. Capitalizing the W makes no sense. —В²C ☎ 22:12, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Support
    List of spaghetti westerns per above. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:55, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 30 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Weighing in this RM, the previous one, and the

MaterialWorks 10:34, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

List of spaghetti Westerns → List of spaghetti westerns – “Western” is capitalized when used as an adjective in a proper noun. But in this context it is a common noun, not an adjective in a proper name, and so is not capitalized, as verified by common usage the NY Times: “lone hero of spaghetti westerns?”[3], “ hyperviolent films known as spaghetti westerns” [4], by The Guardian: “in the shape of the spaghetti western” [5], and by Google ngrams. В²C ☎ 06:29, 30 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. EggRoll97 (talk) 02:09, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Neither capitalization is right or wrong (Merriam-Webster says western in this context is "often capitalized"), but for better or worse Wikipedia has made this decision a long time ago. "Western" is capitalized in all of its subgenres. Dan Bloch (talk) 17:30, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I would add that the multi-move discussion that lowercase supporters of this particular discussion have claimed to have been "no consensus" on both upper and lowercase ignores the fact that uppercase is long-standing consensus (FWIW, there were RMs some time ago for which there was established consensus to move titles from "western" to "Western", which I cannot seem to find it at the moment - it was some time around 2015ish). ButlerBlog (talk) 18:07, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-close discussion with closer

User_talk:MaterialWorks#Close_at_List_of_spaghetti_Westerns —В²C ☎ 00:01, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

Requested move 1 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. Agreed to give it a rest. (non-admin closure) —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 03:00, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NCCAPS seem clear enough that we don't cap what's not almost always capped in sources. And the evidence from sources is clear that both spaghetti and western lowercase is the most common variant, so it's hard to see why we wouldn't go with that. Dicklyon (talk) 03:46, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

@Dicklyon - As was noted in the MR, "No consensus" means "no consensus to move". You need to carefully go back through what was said in the closures AND the MR. We've had 3 RMs and a MR now in less than 4 months. Give it a rest; everyone is exhausted at this point. I'd ask you to pull this request as you're now bludgeoning this. ButlerBlog (talk) 13:00, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Butlerblog that this request should be withdrawn. This proposal exactly restates the one that failed to achieve consensus in a three-week long RM that closed barely a month ago, a closure that was endorsed at MRV. Sure,
consensus can change, but give it some time before taking the temperature again. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 13:31, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Overall, it seems customary to let these things lie for a while (6 months?) unless they closed with something like "consensus to move but no consensus on what to move to" necessitating another round for clarity.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:47, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK, maybe March or so. I'm OK is someone knows how to properly close/withdraw this. Dicklyon (talk) 01:37, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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