Talk:María Elva Pinckert

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	María Elva Pinckert has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result November 20, 2022 Good article nominee Listed
	A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on December 14, 2022. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that María Elva Pinckert, motivated by the murder of her brother, started her political career in local politics in 1999?

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@Krisgabwoosh and Steelkamp: I'm seeing rather blatant holes in this article at the offhand mentions of the subject's brother and the husband. Each seem rather important - I mean, there are people who are estranged from their brother, so aren't much affected by them, but for most people a husband would be important just by himself. In this case, however, the murder of the brother kicked off the subject's reason for notability, and the death of the husband affected her getting or not getting arrested. Who was her brother? How did he get murdered? What did it mean that he was unable to receive necessary intensive care? Who was her husband? How and when did they marry? How did he die? Wikipedia:Content_assessment says that Good Articles "Useful to nearly all readers, with no obvious problems..." These are obvious problems. Honestly, I don't see this as qualifying to be a GA without these two points being answered, or at least addressing why they aren't answered (for example, if she is unusually secretive about husband or brother, at least say that, with sources). --GRuban (talk) 21:28, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The fact of the matter is that there simply is not enough information on either. Regarding her brother, there is exactly one paragraph that mentions him. It states that he was killed, there were not close-by hospitals to take him to, he died, she was motivated to join politics to build up the region's health infrastructure. That's it. No name, nothing else. Everything that could be included has been. Same with her husband. Aside from his death stopping her from testifying, there is only one other detail I could find about him: his name. There is some information on her children, but a dedicated section listing off their names, ages, and their kids names and ages seems like unnecessary fluff.

This is an issue I've come across with a couple reviews of my articles now, that being the lack of personal information. The fact of the matter is, most Bolivian politicians aren't really public figures in the same way American or British politicians are. This is largely a product of the country's political system, in which candidates for public office are quotas from local trade unions, social organizations, etc. These associations typically nominate figures amongst their ranks, meaning anyone from a miner to a schoolteacher depending on the union can suddenly become a national legislator. Little is known about them before hand and they return to relative obscurity upon the conclusion of their term. That, coupled with their limited visibility when actually in office, means that there are scant sources about them, and what is there revolves around their resume, not personal life. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 02:02, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, I find it difficult to believe that even in Bolivia no newspaper or magazine reporter was at all interested in the alleged murder of a politician's brother that launched her political career. That's just not a thing. That we can't find it on the Internet is one thing, but that no one cared is highly unlikely. If she specifically stonewalls, then we should say that, but we need to say something. You're right that we don't need to name the kids (though we should probably mention that she has them and how many),

WP:BLP says we should avoid naming them unless they're very important and nothing here says her reason for notability is in any way affected by them. But husbands are usually pretty important in people's lives, and the brother seems very important, for the reasons above. We can't just say he was murdered and assume the reader will be content with that, that simply cries out for more detail, especially since it was the event that launched her career. I'm sorry; some people simply don't have enough Internet-available information about them to make good articles - or Good Articles. Not every article can be a GA, and without that, I think this is one of those. --GRuban (talk) 15:51, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply

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I can absolutely guarantee you that there is no further information on the matter. Just take a look at Página Siete's original report on Pinckert's appointment as a minister, where all information about her is effectively stripped ver batim from her official government page. That's the level of investigative journalism you're going to get. Take into account that this nationally syndicated newspaper lacked the editing oversight to notice a misspelling of the figure's very name in the title, and you'll quickly realize that journalism in Bolivia doesn't quite match U.S. or European standards. There are a few main national newspapers and some smaller regional ones, but you'd be hard pressed to find a town-specific paper like Fresno with the The Fresno Bee has. Municipal councillors, especially in non-regional capitals, are practically non-existent in how little visibility they have; even national legislators go entire terms without a single mention by the press; much less their substitutes, who are so non-notable that I couldn't create even a stub for most of them if I wanted to.

With all that in mind, we come to your issue with her family. Bolivian politicians don't often meld personal life with family life nor do they flaunt their relationships. The current First Lady is Lourdes Durán: here's all the information Página Siete has on her in the past six years; three hits after a conflict of interest scandal, two miscellaneous, and two from right after Luis Arce was elected president. If this is how much you can find on the first lady of the entire country, good luck with the husband of a minor senator. Her brother is even less notable, no less because murder in Bolivia isn't that uncommon. Everyone knows at least someone whose friend or family member was victimized by a crime or even killed. This is reflected in how little Pinckert focuses on it. "Approximately 20 years ago, they murdered my brother" is as much detail as she goes into. It's a passing comment, something no Bolivian journalist would think much of, much less look into.

Now, if you're still unsatisfied with my answer, feel free to look through the archives of any of the leading Bolivian periodicals. All of them have been digital since at least 2010, since Pinckert entered the Senate, so any print information about her will be available online. For an example of what you'll find, here's all the information El Deber, Página Siete, and La Razon have on Rhina Aguirre, who served as a senator when Pinckert was a substitute. Little to none.

Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:41, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All right, I'll stand down given your well written defense and my lack of knowledge of Bolivian society. Thank you. -- GRuban (talk) 01:11, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I do hope I didn't come off as abrasive. I appreciate your dedication to quality control; admittedly, some GA reviews that have turned out in my favor probably should have gone into greater depth. Overall, though, I do think this article has exhausted most available sources, even if it doesn't quite contain as much information as I wish it would. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 02:54, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, you were very polite, muchas gracias. --GRuban (talk) 03:54, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]