Talk:Pahari-Pothwari

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What is your problem Mr Taivo. can you explain the grounds for reverting with out any reference. dont miss use your edit chair for fun and reverse only you can proof the edits wrong as suppourted by published material. REGARDZZZZZ Frenchdreamer (talk) 18:07, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The page is for the Pothohari language, so I dont see what this Mirpur issue has anything to do with it. Are you suggesting that Mirpur is not located on the pothohar plateau? Pothohari is the language of the people living in the Pothohar plateau in south Asia.

On a personal note I think the people making these comments are probably from UK. Stereotypes as Mirpuri in UK did not always mean that you were from Mirpur but more about how illiterate a person could be. In Pakistan you would probably equate that to being called a 'jahil' or 'pendu' and 82% of Pakistani Passport migrants (the passport the first generation used to enter UK) in to the UK were from Mirpur and surrounding areas and that probably 90% or more of that 82% were completely illiterate. By illiterate I dont mean they could not speak english but that they had zero level of any kind of education (unable to read or write any language). Numerous people would go to a single person in huge communities to get a letter written to send back home because he was the only one who could read and write Urdu. The receiver of that letter in "Mirpur" would then struggle to find someone who could read and tell them what was written in the letter.

They came here worked hard made good money and became wealthy but were unable to teach their offspring anything but which they learnt at UK schools that is why the 2nd and 3rd generation being brought up in UK are in the state that they are today,i.e. totally lost in the absence of any guiding knowledge. Unaware of what it took to be living in Azad Kashmir, how many people died in the struggle for a seperate homeland for the Muslims of the Sub-continent.

--Topian1 (talk) 02:25, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Most mirpuri speakers are jatts (a clan), whilst others being from varied clans like the kashmiri clan, consisting of sub-clans like mir, khawaja and asab zai/yusuf zai."

This is irrelvent.

"Kashmiri Mirpuri speakers are known to be "hotheaded" and are amongst the bravest in the mirpur and pakistan region."

What planet are you from? You get good and bad in every society.

"Mirpuri is a mostly spoken dialect, there is no form of written mirpuri, and due to political cirumstances, the government hasn't done enough to promote the language. Kashmiri and mirpuri differ slightly"

Kashmiri and Mirpuri are very different. Kashmiri is a Dardic language, whereas Mirpuri is Indo-Aryan.

"There are many mirpuri speakers in around mirpur city itself, as well as on the outskirts and neighbouring towns such as jhelum, mangla, kanaylee and dadyal."

Again, irrelvent;Why the spotlight on Mirpuris, remember this page also reflects the Pothohari people.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Imran Azad (talk • contribs)

Also when referring to "Jatts" of Mirpuri origin, it is an occupation it has nothing to do with lineage. Apparantley I've heard that initially there was no such thing as "Jatt" amongst the Mirpuris, it was a Maharaja who placed various labels on the Mirpuris. Refer to this article: http://www.krrc.org/content/view/76/29/

Kashmiri and Mirpuri are different. Kashmiri is a Dardic language, but just to make a note there are many Kashmiris who speak many different languages, Mirpuri being just one of many.

And finally, there is no such thing as Mirpuri. People of the Punjab refer to themselves as Punjabis.... People from Bradford are known as Yorkshirman not Bradfordians. Like wise the so-called "Mirpuris" are Kashmiris as their province is called "Azad Kashmir"

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.47.148.84 (talk • contribs)

"The majority of Mirpur orientated Muslims in the UK have given the reputation of Kashmiri being so-called "Hard Men". Claims of this have subsequently been proved with some of the major influences of British Pakistanis in England (particularly Bradford) and Scotland (particularly Glasgow) having parents originated from Mirpur City.

The 2004 Census of the UK records that 87% of British Pakistanis are of Kashmiri Descent, the majority Mirpuri (82%). (references, Ethnologue report for Pahari-Patwari")

The article is in reference to the language not the people and anyway its wrong to stereotype people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.47.146.206 (talk • contribs)

Patwari, Pothwahari - numerous different spellings but it refers to the same thing. The language concentrated around Mirpur, Jhelum and the districts in the North of Pakistan in and around the geographical border than Punjab Province has with Azad Kashmir. He's not wrong in saying that in Patwari, that swear is different to in Punjabi in Urdu <--- why he brought it up, i dont know?... but he's right and yes, most of the pakistani people (approximately 89% i last read from census data) originate from Mirpur (and Jhelum + other such districts), with the remaining 9 or 10% of origin being Faisalabad + areas near the city formerly known as Lyalpur (areas such as Kamalia, Sahiwal are included...), so he's not wrong in saying that either and there are less than 2% of pakistani's in the UK from Pakistan's main two cities (Karachi and Lahore) and pathans from the frontier province. As for Mirpuris talking very fast, mirpuri is generally a faster language than both urdu and punjabi - what's wrong with him saying that?... Chinese (Mandarin) and Korean are faster than Japanese... Spanish is faster than Italian (although both are Latin-rooted). Que pasa? What's the matter?

"Most mirpuri speakers are jatts (a clan), whilst others being from varied clans like the kashmiri clan, consisting of sub-clans like mir, khawaja and asab zai/yusuf zai."

This is irrelvent. Also when referring to "Jatts" of Mirpuri origin, it is an occupation it has nothing to do with lineage. Apparantley I've heard that initially there was no such thing as "Jatt" amongst the Mirpuris, it was a Maharaja who placed various labels on the Mirpuris. Refer to this article: http://www.krrc.org/content/view/76/29/

You are right, there. Well done

"Mirpuri is a mostly spoken dialect, there is no form of written mirpuri, and due to political cirumstances, the government hasn't done enough to promote the language. Kashmiri and mirpuri differ slightly"

Kashmiri and Mirpuri are different. Kashmiri is a Dardic language, but just to make a note there are many Kashmiris who speak many different languages, Mirpuri being just one of many.

They are different - that's all that has been established and accepted by scholars + linguists. I hope when ya say Mirpuri you are talking of none other than Potwahari.. cuz that's what it is. People from outside Mirpuri speak the same language.

"There are many mirpuri speakers in around mirpur city itself, as well as on the outskirts and neighbouring towns such as jhelum, mangla, kanaylee and dadyal."

Again, irrelvent;Why the spotlight on Mirpuris, remember this page also reflects the Pothohari people.

He doesn't have proper knowledge but I do know what he's trying to say.

And finally, there is no such thing as Mirpuri. People of the Punjab refer to themselves as Punjabis.... People from Bradford are known as Yorkshirman not Bradfordians. Like wise the so-called "Mirpuris" are Kashmiris as their province is called "Azad Kashmir"

You are WRONG, mate. There IS a such thing as Mirpuri. It's just that, when the name of a city doesn't allow a uni-lexical adjective to be produced, they say someone is from... "city". But when it is possible, the endings are added on. For example, people from Lahore are known as Lahoris (like me <3), people from London are called Londoners, people from New York (City) are called New Yorkers, etc, etc. People from Lyalpur (Faisalabad) still call themselves Lyalpuri... if you go to huddersfield, where there is a 50:50 split in the town of mirpuri (and ppl from near mirpur) and lyalpuri (and ppl from areas near faisalabad, e.g. kamalia), people will ask you if you are MP or LP (lyalpuri or Mirpuri). Yes, if a city is in a certain province/state, another way to describe someone becomes available. For example, residents of Texas are Texans and Americans. Likehow ppl in Yorkshire tend to be Yorkshiremen and English/British (fuck political correctness). However, the name of Kashmir is used as the connotations are glorified (relatively speaking). If you went to Mirpur in the 60s and 70s, you would have seen how there were almost no men in the basti (small town / large village) and there were all women. I know because my mamoo was in the army and was posted in Mirpur at the time. Also, if you ask a Pakistani in the UK where he is from, most of them will always say Mirpur.. becuz thats how the breakdown is... most are from Mirpur (and few are from areas nearby Mirpur on the punjabi-kashmiri border). The homeland Pakistanis feel that Mirpuris (and other "pendus" <--- not my choice of words) have tarnished their name and arent thrilled with how people from Mirpur + related areas will say they are pakistani to goray yet say they are Kashmiri when talking to fellow Pakistanis from other provinces (usually Punjab)... and when the Pakistani Cricket Team play, all the mirpuris start waving the flag + get down to the matches. The fact is, Azad Kashmir is part of Pakistan and people from that province are Pakistani. However, the people from mirpur who have come to England (especially this 3rd generation) are very different to people from other areas of Kashmir. The contrast becomes completely apparent when you look at the ppl of the traditional Kashmiri capital, now in Indian-occupied Kashmir, Srinigar. Not just in terms of the language they speak but interms of respect, values, tradition and honest knowledge of their roots.

---

I got a load of mirpuri friends and so naturally iv picked up a little of the language.. but fact is, what iv posted is objective n' true.

As for Mirpuris talking very fast, mirpuri is generally a faster language than both urdu and punjabi - what's wrong with him saying that?...

In the same paragraph he had a vulgar and obscene sentence. So I decided the whole paragraph should be deemed implausible. In addition to this I also thought some may take offence; as he mentioned renowned, this I thought denoted sarcasm.

And finally, there is no such thing as Mirpuri. People of the Punjab refer to themselves as Punjabis.... People from Bradford are known as Yorkshirman not Bradfordians. Like wise the so-called "Mirpuris" are Kashmiris as their province is called "Azad Kashmir"

I acknowledge your reply with regards to this and I take back what I said. I suppose the point I was trying to make is that the term Mirpuri amongst some non-Mirpuris holds derogative connotations. It is correct to say they are Kashmiri aswell. Just like the Pushtuns, Tajiks, Hazara and Uzbeks to name a few living in Afghanistan come under the union of Afghans. Although they are distinct. Just like the Mirpuris and Kashmiris of the vale whom are distinct in terms of language and culture.

However some have a hard time comprehending the fact that they are Kashmiri and begin to question it. Due to the fact that some whom are engrossed in ethnocentrism have very negative pre-conceived, prejudice, discriminatory and stereotypical views of the term Mirpuri contrast this with the term Kashmiri which totally contrasts their stereotypical views of it. And thus the superiority complex comes crashing down.

With regard to Mirpuris referring to themselves as Kashmiris amongst "fellow" Pakistanis and Pakistani amongst the English just shows their commitment to the cause of Pakistan. If they had a superiority complex over Pakistanis it's quite obvious they wouldn't refer to themselves as Pakistanis yet they do.

They are obviously not going to call themselves Pakistanis amongst their fellow Pakistanis. They identify themselves by a term geographically which is not isolate as opposed to referring to their village or city which in some instances may be ambiguous.

The Mirpuris as you mentioned have a keen interest in Sports when Pakistan is participating, again shows the nationalism in favour of Pakistan rooted within them. Since they have their own government and parliament they can not represent their vote in Pakistan.

I am Mirpuri/Kashmiri whatever you prefer, and I believe the majority of Mirpuris hold the view that they are Pakistani just as well as Kashmiri "through and through".

I don't understand why you question why the Mirpuris call themselves Kashmiri, it's not like they are forging an ethnicity or culture.

What do you mean in terms of respect and values? True, culturally Kashmiris of the Vale and Mirpuris are distinct but to say that one culture in terms of respect and values is superior to the other is just plain wrong.

--82.47.146.235 15:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Being a student of the discipline of History, and being from a background that holds the importance of history extremely important, I shall first like to point out, amongst the inaccuracies of the Kashmiri bashing that has taken place; that it is incorrect to address somebody from Mirpur as a " Mirpuri", having visited the lovely,scenic and lush region of Mirpur, I have gathered information of vital importance to the whole debate, the fact being that approximately, 50 years ago, there was very little affiliation between the people of Kashmiri mirpur and the word "Mirpuri". Post-Modernist research by students currently studying the discipline of History, has shown that the actual name for the language for the people of the Mirpur division of Kashmir,is "pahari"- they are actually a Pahari speaking peoples. So let us not cling on to this loose rope in the air, by calling people "Mirpuri" or was it "MP"? Let us do away with such nonsense of the sort, allow us to forget unilexical nonsense of the sort that you mentioned.

Secondly, you state that they are dishonest about their history, I find this claim preposterous!.. to say the least. Secondly, studies which have been carried out in the area by various people have shown that many are no longer able to prove their claims due to the fact that the Mangla Dam now covers what used to be the graves of their forefathers, yet when the water level resides, the area of the old historical and symbolic city of original Mirpur shines with its former glory, with its architecture designed by architects of quite a callibre.

Also, my historical research has shown that certain areas of land in the Mirpur region were in possesion of large landowners, who are known to be the ancestors of the people currently living upon the land. Many families have family trees written and recorded over the last century, so that such important facts regarding their ancestory shall not be lost in the midst of time.

Furthermore, countries are known by their borders; Mirpur falls into the former Province of Jammu and Kashmir, and now lies in Azad Kashmir, this is an established fact, not a matter of opinion. Therefore, I shall urge you to embrace this fact with open arms, rather than try to contest with this, for I do take pity upon you for being in such a state. Unless, you can remove the borders physically via a geological phenomenon, I suggest you accept the map of Kashmir for what it is, especially when it is the most highly militarised zone in the world, how you shall manage such a task as removing the borders, I cannot fathom.

Lastly, being a historian, I am truly amazed at the psychology behind certain events and actions, and therefore do not mind me for adding, that I feel that there is a somewhat, forgive me for being so straight to the point , but an "inferiority complex" on the part of some, who romanticise the notion of being kashmiri, yet as we know history and heritage are not things that are in our hands, so therefore some non-Kashmiris, I do not wish to generalise, but a small minority wish they could take the label for themselves, yet do not have the power to do so. As a last piece of advice may I remind the Pakistanis that they should celebrate the diversity of each other, rather than try to bash one another. Allow me to quote Muhammad Ali Jinnah - (paraphrased) "If we stand by labelling ourselves by the provinces we come from, we shall not stand, we shall only stand if we call ourselves Pakistani". Having said this, you should celebrate who you are as ethnic peoples, but not allow it to create enmity between you, and a "superiority" or in some complex cases an "inferiority complex". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.145.7 (talk • contribs)

Hi i m not adding a dictionary but pin pointing the very few differences of all punjabi dialects (which only we locals of these dialects can speak) which you foriegners impose as a language under a political agenda of DIVIDE AND RULE. you first declare english of US and Austrailia and South Africa as a different language then try it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LanguageXpert (talk • contribs) 08:01, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't the place for making a political point. Your claims need to be sourced. Also, it isn't foreigners who are dividing the language, but the speakers themselves. — kwami (talk) 08:04, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am a native potowari speaker....check Pakistan Census 1998 for rawalpindi division language distribution for your kind information...i had already provided you refrences on Saraiki page but your action speaks louder then words that you guys are biased and your agenda is to divide and rule.. u take challenge and learn these dialects and then challenge if i was wrong or right in posting the 30-50 words are only different and those are only due to minor vowel adjustments (U CAN RECHECK IT WITH ANY OTHER NATIVE SPEAKERS)...WE ALL ARE PUNJABI AND NOT EVEN A CHILD HAS LISTENED A WORD LEHNDA LANGUAGE...at a joke u make if u try to proof it a different language...you guys have double standards for english ...you guys have different agenda of spreading voilence instead of unity among people of pakistan and specially province punjab

You're right, the violence in Punjab is caused by Wikipedia articles. You should take us to the Hague.

Regardless, you need to provide WP:reliable sources for your edits. — kwami (talk) 09:59, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Kwami. Without

reliable sources, your edits are just personal opinion. --Taivo (talk) 11:01, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

I do, too. And 'hidden agenda', that's just ridiculous. --JorisvS (talk) 11:05, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, LanguageXpert, I have no idea whether Panjabi, Hindko, Saraiki, and Potwari should be considered one language or more than one. And I hardly care. If these were obscure languages no-one had heard of, I would probably lump them together to save the bother of writing separate articles. But this is a political issue: there are people whose identities are very much invested in Saraiki etc. being a distinct language. I can't judge, but I can't trust you or them to judge either, or we simply devolve into a political shouting match. That's what we need sources for, to prove it's not just your say-so. — kwami (talk) 13:08, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi kwami & Co, if u feel blocking is the solution then you can go ahead, but you forgot the end objectivity of WIKIPEDIA is to provide true and honest facts.....you answer me what is the difference between a language and a dialect?????? LANGUAGE means totally un comprehensible and not mutually intelligible ...while dialect means mutually intelligible and communicate able because there is a difference of vowels few or slight gramical variations and regional influenced words... Potowari is perfectly communicatable and mutually intelligible with very few different words...potowari elected PUNJABI as there mother tongue in 1998 Pakistan census...u can check it by searching on net...Hopefully u will now better able to understand my point of view...i have a lot of references from various authors...But question remains that aint they human like us...the only difference is that they have written book....Written book can be untrue or true WHO KNOWS...bt i challenge you to proof my research wrong...sorry for harsh words but REMEMBER end objectivity is to present a true reflection.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LanguageXpert (talk • contribs) 16:32, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reference one .....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dialects_Of_Punjabi.jpg.....Linguist books references...Author name:Doctor K S BEDI Book Name: 3 Indian Languages Page 99, Author name:Doctor Shehbaaz Malik Book Name: Punjabi Linguistics Languages Page 142, Author name:Qureshi Ahmed Hussain Book Name: History of Punjabi Litreture Page 17, Author name:Hafiz Mehmood Sherani Book Name: Urdu and Punjab Page 76 LanguageXpert (talk) 16:44, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are clearly ignorant about Wikipedia procedures, LanguageXpert. When your addition has been reverted, especially when it has been reverted multiple times by multiple editors, you STOP what you are doing, present your evidence clearly on the Talk Page, and build a

WP:RS. Second, your other references are improperly formatted and don't contain enough information for another editor to locate them and refer to whatever quotes you are presenting. You are still doing nothing more than throwing your word out there and expecting us to believe it because of your user name. --Taivo (talk) 18:01, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

Oh Taivo You Cant Hide From Genuine Quires Can u answer these questions please Mr. Taivo + Kwami (1) Who are the authors of reliable scientific linguistic works Foreign or locals ?? (2) How can any forigner language expert who cant speak these dialects can classify them as an separate language only on the basis of 200 to 300 word comparison ?? (3) What is the difference between a dialect and language? (4) Can you learn these dialects then challenge my edits? (5) Y AUSTRAILIAN, US , BRTISH, South African english are not classified as different languages with similer level of differences? (6) Y wikipages on these dialects of english contain word comparisons if i m not allowed to post word comparison in these dialects of punjabi...bcoz u remove them by arguing ITS NOT A DICTIONARY? (7). Why these are not reliable refrences with such a famous authors Book name: 3 HINDUSTANI LANGUAGES Page 99 Author: Doctor K S BEDI...Book name: PUNJABI LISANIYAT (LANGUISTIST) Page 142 Author: Shehbaz Malik...Book name: SHORT HISTORY OF PUNJABI LITERATURE Page 17 Author: Qureshi Ahmed Hussain..Book name: URDU IN PUNJAB Page 76 Author: Hafiz Mehmood Shirani (8) You said that other native speakers contested my edited so can u kindly name bcoz i cant see any objecting edit by any native speaker? LanguageXpert (talk) 07:36, 22 October 2012 (UTC) (9) Is wikipedia talk page arguments and logics presented not enough to revert wt u had been doing with out convincing me ? (10) Are you not taking un fair advantage of your position as wikipedia administrators? (11) Has any native speaker objected on my word list which clearly show how correct that was? (12) If I publish a fake "scientific linguistic work" in your mother tongue and relate it to monkey language then will you post it on wikipedia as a scientific linguistic research ??? LanguageXpert (talk) 12:02, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Read

WP:BRD. If someone reverts your edits then you have to justify on the Talk Page and build a consensus before re-editing. You have failed miserably at even attempting to build a consensus. If you want us to consider your sources, then you have to provide full publication details so that they are available for our inspection and verification--not just a name and author's name. --Taivo (talk) 14:01, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

The Hindko language is a daughter language of Potwari, Hindko was a language which was adopted by the pashtuns for some unknown reason, Potwari IS NOT A TRANSITIONAL DIALECT BECAUSE IT'S GRAMMAR ANS SYNTAX IS LESS "PUNJABIFIED" then Hindko, for example in hindko they say vadda for big but in pothwari it's barha which shares a term with Urdu, Hindko is a not a language but a dialectm, potwari has more inventive and deviating features from it's sister language Punjabi, pothwari is a dialect of Punjabi, for example we say "tak" for see and we have our own inflections for example to say inside an object you have to say : Pakistan wich---> Pakistan-ech. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adnaan1 (talk • contribs) 17:21, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source? — kwami (talk) 17:29, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Adnan1. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.50.69.145 (talk) 18:12, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]