Talk:Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. After a month of discussion we're no nearer to a decision, though a few things are clear. It appears that as of 2015 "Columbia TriStar Motion Picture Group" no longer exists, and that all of Sony Pictures' movie studies are under an entity known as Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group. It appears that the best solution here will be updating all the relevant articles with the newest information. It seems clear at least that we need an article or subsection for Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group. Cúchullain ^t/c 15:47, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment We are going to need a little more to go on than that. Bloomberg Business states "Columbia TriStar Motion Picture Group operates as a subsidiary of Sony Pictures Entertainment." That seems to indicate that regardless of ownership the company is still legally operating as the Columbia TriStar Motion Picture Group. If this has changed recently then the article should be updated with specifics before any rename. Betty Logan (talk) 21:40, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to discredit your findings.....1) Bloomberg Business also states that CBS (TV network) is owned by "Westinghouse CBS Holding Company, Inc.", which isn't true, as its actually owned by CBS Corporation (CBS's article confirms such, proving Bloomberg Business wrong) & 2) I'd place MORE credibility in Sony Pictures's website concerning its business operations than I would Bloomberg Business. In fact, Bloomberg Business states that Harpo Productions (Oprah's production company) is owned by Harpo Entertainment Group; problem is, Harpo Entertainment Group doesn't even exist (Oprah's site states the Harpo brand is owned by Harpo, Inc.) Regardless, I've gone through & changed the wording of the article to represent the new information put forth by Sony Pictures's website. 76.235.248.47 (talk) 03:34, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is not clear if Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group is simply a rebranding or a reconstitution of Colombia Tri Star. Sony's own website does not clarify this. A secondary source is needed that elaborates on the relationship between the two entities. Also, I have reverted your edits to the article that eradicated all mention of Colombia Tristar from the history of the company. If the company has been reconstituted or rebranded then that should be explictly documented as an event in the history of the company (with dates and sources etc), rather than through the revisionist approach you have taken. Betty Logan (talk) 03:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize in advance if I come off as impolite, but if you had actually bothered to do searching on Sony's website instead of assuming, you'd find out Sony's website DOES in fact clarify the re-branding: [1] (first "+" references Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group, NOT Columbia (OR Columbia) TriStar Motion Picture Group, as the branding of the film studios group), [2] (Tom Rothman referenced as Chairman, Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group, NOT Columbia (OR Colombia) TriStar Motion Picture Group), & [3] (again, Rothman referenced as Chairman, Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group, NOT Columbia (OR Colombia) TriStar Motion Picture Group). FYI, the links are links from Sony's main website to sections of Sony Pictures website). In fact, according to the Divisions section of Sony Pictures's own website (my own editing for emphasis):

"Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group encompasses Columbia Pictures, TriStar Pictures, Screen Gems, Sony Pictures Animation, Sony Pictures Classics, Sony Pictures Imageworks, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment and Sony Pictures Worldwide Acquisitions in addition to releasing groups, Sony Pictures Releasing and Sony Pictures Releasing International."

To me, that sounds like a re-branding of the film studios group (notice, NO mention/reference to Columbia (OR Colombia) TriStar Motion Picture Group). It wouldn't be a reconstitution, as Sony isn't creating a new property; what they have done is simply re-brand the film studios group. Now, as far as a non-Sony source for the re-branding, it would appear that NO news organization has yet to report on it, so I don't know what to tell you there. I also have NO reference as to when Sony re-branded its film studios group to Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group. But, regardless, Sony NOW IDs its film studios group as Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group, NOT Columbia (OR Colombia) TriStar Motion Picture Group. If there's a better way to document the re-branding, then by all means, be my guest & do it. 76.235.248.47 (talk) 02:36, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I am the one making assumptions here. The problem is that none of your sources mention Columbia-TriStar Motion Pictures Group. They do not elaborate on the relationship between Colmbia TriStar MPG and Sony Picture MPG. How do we know it was simply a case of rebranding? That seems to be an unvalidated assumption because nothing in the sources you provide explicitly back this up. Sony Picture MPG seems to have more divisions than are mentioned in this article so is it possible Columbia TriStar MPG was merged with other Sony subsidiaries to form a new company? If this is the case then Sony Pictures MPG is a fundamentally different company to Columbia TriStar MPG and it would simply be better to create a new article in such a case. Another possibility is that Columbia TriStar was dissolved and Sony has merged some of Colombia TriStar's divisions with some of their own to form a new company. All your sources actually do is establish that Sony Pictures MPG exists and Colmbia TriStar MPG does not. Unless it can be explicitly established that it was simply a rebranding or that the makeup of the two companies is identical then I do not think it is reasonable to rename the article. I am not opposing the move at the moment, but I want to establish exactly what happened to Colombia Tri-Star before going ahead with a move. Betty Logan (talk) 03:32, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Further comment I have been digging around and it seems Sony has undertaken some major restructuring. Columbia Tristar Motion Picture Group existed up to 2014 according to Columbia Journalism Review, and at that point its subsidiaries were Columbia Pictures, Sony Picture Classics and Screen Gems. At some point prior to 2014 it seems that Tristar Pictures was reassigned to Sony Pictures Releasing and Sony Pictures Releasing International. In the last year or so it appears that Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group was formed and all of Sony's film divisions were made subsidiaries of this new group (see Sony divisions); as a part of this restructing it appears that all of the subsidiaries of Colombia Tristar Motion Picture Group were assigned to Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group along with Sony's other film divisions. Betty Logan (talk) 14:54, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well then, maybe you can make the necessary changes to the article so that it reflects the new information about Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group. 76.235.248.47 (talk) 03:49, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Betty? Look at the Bloomberg source again. You DO know that's old info, right? Jeff Blake left SPE as of last year. Read this.

And then, read these:

• Source #1
• Source #2
• Source #3
• Source #4

It was last year when the group's name was changed. It was still known as the CTMPG in 2013. King Shadeed 01:55, June 19, 2015 (UTC)

If it were simply a rename then Columbia Tristar MPG and Sony Pictures MPG would have the same subsidiaries, but this isn't the case, so how can it be the same company? Columbia Tristar MPG had three subsidiaries, while according to your own source Sony Pictures MPG has thirteen. From the looks of things Sony completely restructured its film arm in the last few months. You will note that many of Sony Pictures MPG's subsidaries were subsidaries of Sony Picture Entertainment, not just Columbia Tristar. Basically it looks like Sony has taken all of the film related subsidiaries of Sony Pictures Entertainment along with all of Columbia Tristar MPG's subsidiaries and made them all subsidiaries of a new holding company, Sony Pictures MPG. Betty Logan (talk) 06:34, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Then where are YOUR sources at?? I've only shown you five. You only had one. And FYI, CTMPG consisted of Columbia, Screen Gems, Sony Pictures Classics, and TriStar. So that's 4, not 3. Secondly, don't be skeptical. Third of all, CTMPG became SPMPG by adding Sony Pictures Animation, Sony Pictures Classics, Sony Pictures Imageworks, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, Sony Pictures Releasing, and Sony Pictures Worldwide Acquisitions. Take the time out to read five of my references. King Shadeed 14:08, June 19, 2015 (UTC)

I provided two sources in my "Further comment" above, and for the record I did read each of your sources carefully before responding to your comment. None of the sources you provided:

1. explicitly mention Colmbia Tristar Motion Pictures Group;
2. explicitly state that Columbia Tristar MPG has been renamed as Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group;
3. state that Sony Pictures Animation, Sony Pictures Classics, Sony Pictures Imageworks, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, Sony Pictures Releasing, and Sony Pictures Worldwide Acquisitions were added to Colmbia Tristar MPG.

As far I can see, this is the makeup of the companies before restructuring [4]:

Divisions of Sony Pictures Entertainment: Sony Pictures Entertainment (Film), Sony Pictures Television Group.

Subsidiaries of Sony Pictures Entertainment (Film): Columbia Tristar Motion Picture Group (Columbia Pictures, Screen Gems, Sony Pictures Classics), Sony Pictures Releasing and Sony Pictures Releasing International (TriStar Pictures, Columbia Pictures Film Production Asia (Hong Kong), Columbia Films Producciones Espanolas (Madrid), Columbia Pictures Producciones Mexico (Mexico City)), Sony Pictures Studios, Sony Pictures Digital Productions, Sony Pictures Animation, Sony Pictures Imageworks Interactive, Sony Pictures Technologies, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment

The makeup of the companies after restructuring [5]:

Divisions of Sony Pictures Entertainment: Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group, Sony Pictures Studios and Sony Pictures Television Group.

Subsidiaries of Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group: Columbia Pictures, TriStar Pictures, Screen Gems, Sony Pictures Animation, Sony Pictures Classics, Sony Pictures Imageworks, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment and Sony Pictures Worldwide Acquisitions in addition to releasing groups, Sony Pictures Releasing and Sony Pictures Releasing International, Columbia Pictures Film Production Asia (Hong Kong), Columbia Films Producciones Espanolas (Madrid), Columbia Pictures Producciones Mexico (Mexico City).

All the subsidiaries of Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group were invariably subsidiaries of Columbia Tri Star Motion Picture Group, Sony Pictures Releasing and Sony Pictures Releasing International, and Sony Pictures Entertainment (Film). If you compare Sony Pictures Entertainment (Film) to Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group you will see they are basically the same, with the sole exception of Sony Pictures Studios which has been turned into a separate division. Betty Logan (talk) 03:06, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just stop it. How can it be made up if the name came from authentic sources?? You're saying that Variety, Deadline, and Sony Pictures' press releases release fake news?? You only found TWO sources. Can YOU find ANY sources from either 2014 or the current year that still retain the name "Columbia TriStar Motion Picture Group"?? King Shadeed 01:03, June 20, 2015 (UTC)

I am not saying that Variety make up news, I am saying you are misinterpreting the sources. Betty Logan (talk) 06:11, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not misinterpreting the sources. You can't even see it for yourself that the group's name had been changed. Plus, you still didn't answer my question. "Can YOU find ANY sources from either 2014 or the current year that still retain the name "Columbia TriStar Motion Picture Group"??". If you can't, just admit that you're wrong and call it a day. King Shadeed 04:29, June 20, 2015 (UTC)

Survey

• Oppose I am formally opposing the rename for now following the discussion above, since I do not believe a convincing enough argument has been put forward in favor of it. A rename should not take place unless we can explicitly establish through sources that Columbia Tristar Motion Picture Group has been rebranded as Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group. The sources put forward by the proponents of the rename do not directly discuss Columbia Tristar, and certainly not a rebranding. Moreover, I believe that Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group may actually be a restructuring of Sony Pictures Entertainment (Film), ascertained by comparing the current divisions and subsidiaries of Sony to those from last year (see two tables below). If someone can bring something substantial to the discussion that i) explicitly states Columbia Tristar has been rebranded or ii) demonstrates they are fundamentally the same company, I will happily drop my opposition. Betty Logan (talk) 08:37, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sony Pictures Divisions

Divisions before restructuring [6]	Divisions after restructuring [7]
Sony Pictures Entertainment (Film) Sony Pictures Studios (subsidiary)	Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group
	Sony Pictures Studios
Sony Pictures Television Group	Sony Pictures Television

Common subsidiaries

Sony Pictures Entertainment (Film) [8]		Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group [9]
Columbia Tristar Motion Picture Group	Columbia Pictures	Columbia Pictures
	Sony Pictures Classics	Sony Pictures Classics
	Screen Gems	Screen Gems
Sony Pictures Releasing and Sony Pictures Releasing International	TriStar Pictures	TriStar Pictures
	Columbia Pictures Film Production Asia (Hong Kong)	Columbia Pictures Film Production Asia (Hong Kong)
	Columbia Films Producciones Espanolas (Madrid)	Columbia Films Producciones Espanolas (Madrid)
	Columbia Pictures Producciones Mexico (Mexico City)	Columbia Pictures Producciones Mexico (Mexico City)
Sony Pictures Releasing and Sony Pictures Releasing International		Sony Pictures Releasing and Sony Pictures Releasing International
Sony Pictures Animation		Sony Pictures Animation
Sony Pictures Imageworks Interactive		Sony Pictures Imageworks
Sony Pictures Home Entertainment		Sony Pictures Home Entertainment
Sony Pictures Studios		Now a division of Sony Pictures
Sony Pictures Digital Productions
Sony Pictures Technologies
Colorworks
		Sony Pictures Worldwide Acquisitions

Betty Logan (talk) 08:37, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Betty? Betty. WHY would you say that "Sony Pictures Studios" is now a division of Sony Pictures and it's been a division since 1991?? Secondly, Sony Pictures Digital is NOT part of SPE's film division.

• Support I have plenty of evidences that the current film group is known as "Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group" and not "Columbia TriStar Motion Picture Group" and they're from references from both 2014 and today.

As I have posted from above:

• Source #1
• Source #2
• Source #3
• Source #4
• Source #5

More that I have:

• According to the about section here, it says that "Sony Pictures Imageworks is an Academy Award-winning visual effects unit of Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group". It WAS a unit of Sony Pictures Digital Productions.
• Read this too.

If it were STILL known as the "Columbia TriStar Motion Picture Group" as of today, then it would say it on SPE's site. Therefore, it doesn't. It respectfully says "Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group". And I don't misinterpret my sources! King Shadeed 16:23, June 20, 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.