Talk:Space-cadet keyboard

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Wow! I remember fondly my C64 and it's special "front" graphic characters. While the space-cadet is certainly over-the-top I think we could still use some of it's influence again. I am very dissapointed that the Alt key, for instance, has been co-opted for more "control" functions, while the function keys have faded in use.

Some dates would be educational. -- Beland 03:02, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are a lot of extra keys that aren't mentioned in this article:

• I, II, III, IV keys (not used, available for user applications)
• Rub Out (ASCII 127 = DEL = Delete; delete the character you just typed)
• The hand keys (not used, available for user applications)
• Over Strike (ASCII 8 = BS = Back Space; move left without erasing)
• Line (ASCII 12 = LF = Line Feed; move down; editor newline and indent)

There's a few more that could be expanded upon. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 05:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(Parenthetical explanations revised by Devon Sean McCULLOUGH 2015 August 26 Wednesday, sorry I don't know the talk page guidelines but this info is verifiable in the "ChineUal" Lisp Machine Manuals & source code published by MIT)

• RETURN (ASCII 13 = CR = Carriage Return; move to left margin; editor newline; activate single line input)
• MACRO ?
• TERMINAL (Local escape, e.g., <Terminal> D buzzes the door, E calls the elevator)
• SYSTEM (Subsystem escape, e.g., <System> E brings up the editor)
• NETWORK (Telnet/Supdup escape to control remote login sessions)
• ALT MODE (ASCII 27 = ESC = Escape; printable as a tall concave hollow lozenge)
• QUOTE ?(perhaps quote next single character)
• CLEAR INPUT ?(perhaps rub out current input)
• CLEAR SCREEN (ASCII 12 = FF = Form Feed; clear the display)
• HOLD OUTPUT ?(perhaps pause output but never used, output pauses by default at end of page)
• STOP OUTPUT ?(perhaps discard output)
• ABORT (quit current operation; Control-Abort to force quit)
• BREAK (suspend current operation and drop into debugger)
• RESUME (continue from break)
• CALL ?(ASCII 26; perhaps interrupt or pause) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Devon Sean McCULLOUGH (talk • contribs) 15:20, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• STATUS ?
• DELETE ?
• END ?(perhaps activate multi line input)
• HELP (documentation, e.g., <System> <Help> lists available subsystems)

Devon Sean McCULLOUGH (talk) 15:08, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Jargon File reference link does not work and the given ISBN does not appear in any registry I tried. I would update it but the only Jargon File I ever use is the online one maintained by ESR. Zlynx (talk) 20:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Although it is commonly known, that Knight Keyboard influenced keystroke-oriented design of EMACS, the impact on early home computing industry shall also be mentioned: spoken above "front" characters of

Linkfix by 145.228.61.4 (talk) 13:21, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See this picture: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/its-cover.png

The source is the cover of the manual for the first

Why do super key and meta key have their own article but not hyper key? -NeF (talk) 16:44, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hyper Key use to, but it never got beyond "The Hyper key was a special key on the Space-cadet keyboard." That was the entire article (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Hyper_key&diff=prev&oldid=329534377). Meta's is slightly more substantial (and is used on some Linux configurations), and Super still has a current use on Linux computers (mapped to Windows). I wish someone who actually used a computer with a Hyper Key could post some information on them to make a new article. The Sanest Mad Hatter (talk) 23:11, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I recently (today) uploaded a SVG of the Space Cadet Keyboard's layout to wikicommons (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/wiki/File:Spacecadetkeyboard.svg). My intention it to turn it into a imagemap so readers of this article could click on it to go to each key's specific page—similar to many keyboard related articles having this (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Template:Keyboard) template. I would appreciate help in cleaning up the image, it isn't very legible scaled down to a reasonable size. The Sanest Mad Hatter (talk) 23:57, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The more usual way of linking is File:Spacecadetkeyboard.svg or commons:File:Spacecadetkeyboard.svg. Not sure the color scheme helps with legibility; you might prefer a bold font on a light background (e.g. File:KB Canadian French.svg etc.). AnonMoos (talk) 00:50, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here is what I've done so far, threw out the nice colors for legibility.

The Sanest Mad Hatter (talk) 02:28, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've been looking through several documents regarding early Symbolics Lisp and information that corresponds to the "space-cadet" keyboard. The Jargon File seems to imply that by using combinations of Ctrl, Meta, Super and Hyper, thousands of characters were possible (and perhaps even actually mapped) using this keyboard. However, from what I've read, the bucky bit modifier keys weren't for additional special characters but for specialized command use by Lisp itself or programs running in that environment (just as Ctrl and Alt are commonly used in different ways in a modern graphical user interface). Thus, the Symbolics space-cadet keyboard "only" had five shift levels (default, Shift, Greek [Front], Shift-Greek and Top). In fact, this is exactly what is shown in the table in the Description section of the article. This makes sense as (presumably) Lisp programmers would have been more interested in having a large number of modifiers for commands and programming functions rather than something like a prehistoric Unicode range (the Xerox Star rather than MIT-based Lisp machines was a pioneer in larger character sets/internationalization).

For the record, I just came across documentation of the Symbolics character set (w00t!). It has a total of 162 character encodings and 136 available but unused encodings (that are not "reserved" or "null character"). I'm not sure if this information should go in this article or one about Symbolics Lisp. Bumm13 (talk) 21:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, It's been a very long time since I've used one but from what I remember you are correct. Mostly what I remember using the hyper and meta keys for was debugging. It was really nice because the whole operating system was both object oriented and Lisp based so you could use certain key strokes to say "Abort the running process and throw to the next process that will handle it" or "Abort the current process and any process that catches it and throw all the way back to the user" Control-Meta-Abort was what you did when all else failed. MadScientistX11 (talk) 14:49, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I remember when this keyboard came out. It was called the Kulp keyboard, after John L. Kulp, one of the Symbolics founders (see User:Russell Noftsker), who I believe was the person who designed it. He ought to get credit in the article, but unfortunately I have no documentation to back up my claim so I won't edit it.

Someone asked about years. Symbolics was founded in 1980. This keyboard would have been produced soon thereafter - or possibly even before if Kulp had some made while he was still at the MIT Plasma Fusion Center. Don't know how you'd research this other than asking him. Jar354 (talk) 22:38, 4 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So now we know who was Kulpable. (Okay, someone had to say it.) – AndyFielding (talk)

I noticed that recently

good references The second reference: MIT Discussion Archive does mention Kulp but again, it's just an archived discussion thread which is definitely not a valid reference. People can say whatever they want on a discussion thread. The third reference: Hacker News Email does mention Kulp but it also mentions Knight and my reading of that short message is that while Kulp designed the original keyboard the keyboard that came to be known as the Space-Cadet keyboard was designed by Knight. Although in any case that third reference also IMO is not a valid reference. I used and loved this keyboard but I have to agree with another comment below, if we can't find decent references for it then this whole article (alas) may not be noteworthy. But while I don't have any knowledge about the early MIT machines (I only used the Symbolics machines working in AI in industry) I've always heard these referred to as the Knight keyboard. Of course what I've heard doesn't count as a reference either. I'm going to do some research and see if there are any good references that can settle this. I think the change should be reverted but since the original reference wasn't good either I'm just going to leave it for now and see what other people have to say. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 22:25, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

I found this article: Evolution of Lisp by Steele and Gabriel which refers to the Knight Keyboard. Kulp's name is mentioned once in the article but only as one of the members of The Common Lisp Group. The article is behind a paywall but I have access to it. If anyone wants a copy let me know. Unless someone has a better reference I'm going to change the article back to crediting Knight and use this as a reference. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 22:35, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also, found this book: Harley Hahn's Emacs Field Guide which both refers to the Space Cadet Keyboard and the Knight Keyboard. I don't have the book but according to Google scholar it includes the following quote: "To return to the Space Cadet keyboard , in all, you could use it to type more than 8,000 different … One last point: the Knight keyboard was named after Tom Knight, one of the Lisp Machine's …" -- Unless someone has other references I plan to change the article to credit Knight, remove the 3 invalid references and replace them with these two. MadScientistX11 (talk) 22:57, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever you do, please don't confuse the Knight keyboard with the Space-cadet keyboard. Lars Brinkhoff (talk) 06:38, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here'a a link to the book: https://usermanual.wiki/Document/HH20Emacs20Field20Guide.1379879197.pdf It says (emphasis mine) "In fact, there were at least two such keyboards that were used with Lisp machines. (Remember, Emacs is tightly integrated with the Lisp programming language.) These keyboards were called the Knight keyboard and the Space Cadet keyboard."

Getting Started Computing at the AI Lab says on page 39: Comlinks are controlled by commands beginning with the special character called "backnext". This character actually exists only on Knight TV keyboards, but it may be simulated by typing controlunderscore or MACRO. The BACKNEXT key is visible here: http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/Knight.html No such key on the Space-cadet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard#/media/File:Space-cadet.jpg

There is a Knight keyboard, but it's a separate design. See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_keyboard Lars Brinkhoff (talk) 04:43, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a picture of a Knight keyboard: http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/Knight1.jpeg And a similar Space-cadet keyboard: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/775050/43338835-de3ca1d6-91d7-11e8-9c27-c25215bd6428.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Larsbrinkhoff (talk • contribs) 05:41, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What CPR writes to Hacker News is that the "first-generation Lisp Machine) keyboard that John Kulp originally had manufactured ... were astoundingly good", but that it was "not quite as good as the TK keyboards". TK is Tom Knight, so the second keyboard is the Knight one.

I'm in touch with Knight, Kulp, Steele, etc. But whatever they can write to me aren't acceptable references. Lars Brinkhoff (talk) 05:49, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I checked "Evolution of Lisp" and yes, it mentions the Knight keyboard. But as I have pointed out, it's not the same as the Space-cadet keyboard which came later. Lars Brinkhoff (talk) 05:53, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We have the software used with the Knight and Space-cadet keyboards, which clearly shows they were separate. The scan codes are different, etc. Lars Brinkhoff (talk) 06:09, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To Mr Rees, if you still care about this article. There is a file LMDOC; KDBPRO 3 timestamped late 1978 so this would be early notes. And there is an email from January 1980 saying "The new keyboards have arrived". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Larsbrinkhoff (talk • contribs) 06:19, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Larsbrinkhoff I don't know the history here so I'll yield to your expertise, especially since you changed it to mention Knight in the beginning. Cheers. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 20:47, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this being spelled as though Space-cadet were an adjective rather than part of a name? I realize these boards were never officially called this, but Space Cadet keyboard (no hyphen, both words capped) is how you'd expect it to be spelled. I see both spellings used around the Web. If it's a documented fact that whoever created the name didn't know better, I suppose history should win. (I'd also add the details to the topic, as the name's origin would be interesting even if eccentric spelling weren't involved.) Otherwise, suppose we fix it? – AndyFielding (talk) 22:05, 20 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I searched online for any more information on this keyboard because I was interested in the origin of its name, but I haven't found any more information than is already included in the article.

There are two possibilities for the origin of this name: 1) official documentation for the original system referred to it by this name, which seems unlikely, or 2) someone referred to it at some point in time by this nickname. Every page I found calls it a Lisp machine keyboard, and every site then immediately jumps into a description of the many special keys and how they were historically used - there is no mention of why it goes by this name, who gave it this name, or when it got this name.

I think an encyclopedic article on this keyboard should include an etymology section that explains the origin of the name. If it was named this originally, that would be an interesting fact, but I could also see how maybe nobody actually knows why it's called the space cadet keyboard. It's also possible that many people know why it goes by this name but assume it's obvious and doesn't need to be explained - if so, allow me to point out that it's not obvious to everyone. In any case, it would be appropriate to include a section in the article with this information.

So, does anybody know anything more about the origin of its name? Bz8x8c (talk) 18:32, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I just realized that this question is semi-related to the previous talk section, although it was discussing the article's title. Bz8x8c (talk) 18:36, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I know this isn't a valid reference but as someone who used (and loved) the Symbolics a lot I can just tell you that everyone referred to it as the "Space Cadet keyboard". I remember that Symbolics used to include some amusing stuff like that in some of their documentation so if anyone can find some old Symbolics manuals it might be included there. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 22:03, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

See the discussion under the John Kulp section. I found an Emacs manual that uses the term Space Cadet keyboard... which now that I think of it seems right, Emacs was a core part of the hacker culture that came up with wonderful names like that. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 23:09, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Does this really need an article? Does anyone actually care about some obscure keyboard used by 20 people five decades ago? Nothing about this keyboard is noteworthy or important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.207.57.166 (talk) 20:21, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It was used by a LOT more than 20 people but more importantly it was an important part of the evolution of UI hardware and of the hacker culture of Gnu and the Lisp machine. Not as notable as say the Macintosh but still notable. I agree the current references aren't very good but I've found two better ones and will try to locate some more. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 23:12, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That is insulting. 100.40.131.139 (talk) 03:11, 20 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article says 50 x 5 * 2^4 (16) = 8000. My calculator says 4000. I don't have a clue what is right but just thought I'd mention it in case someone with more knowledge wanted to clarify things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pedzsan (talk • contribs) 16:44, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article states that EMACS uses the M- prefix for the Alt key. This is backwards. What is happening is that you have chosen (or at any rate, defaulted) to map Meta to your ⎇Alt key. Meta, not Alt, is the EMACS concept. The proof of this is that you can run EMACS on things other than PCs. I'm now using a MacBook, and I have Meta mapped to 🌐Fn (so I can keep ⌘Command and ⌥Option available for their native uses); there is no Alt key here at all. Yet still and always there is EMACS. 2600:1700:38D4:604F:446C:1542:EA79:FDE6 (talk) 01:48, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm with you on this. The article currently says

Emacs uses "M-" as the prefix for ⎇ Alt when describing key presses: the "M-" stood for Meta on the space-cadet keyboard, and when Emacs was ported to PCs, the Alt key was used in place of Meta.

It could be reworded as something like

Emacs uses "M-" as the prefix for Meta when describing key presses, which stood for ◆ Meta on the space-cadet keyboard. When Emacs was ported to PCs, the Alt key was used in place of Meta.

Lars Brinkhoff (talk) 09:41, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]