Talk:Thekla (daughter of Theophilos)

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Article milestones Date Process Result November 11, 2021 Good article nominee Listed March 4, 2023 Featured article candidate Promoted
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This review is

transcluded from Talk:Thekla (daughter of Theophilos)/GA1

. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Iazyges (talk · contribs) 19:50, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria

• No DAB links Y
• No dead links Y
• No missing citations Y

Discussion

• It should be mentioned near Thekla was apparently also released given that she was used by Michael III to attempt to make political arrangements. In around 865, Michael had married his long-time lover Eudokia Ingerina to his friend and co-emperor Basil I, in order to mask their continued relationship. that this is disputed by sources and historians. I'm not sure exactly how you'd bring this up while staying relevant in such a small article, but perhaps something along the lines of According to the tradition of Symeon Logothete, Thekla was released and used by Michael III to attempt to make political arrangements. He states that in around 865, Michael had married his long-time lover Eudokia Ingerina to his friend and co-emperor Basil I, in order to mask their continued relationship (you may also wish to mention some believe Michael did so after getting Eudokia pregnant so that the baby would be legitimately born). However, his neutrality is disputed, and other contemporary sources do not speak of this conspiracy, leading several prominent Byzantists, such as Ostrogorsky and Adontz to dismiss this narratice. feel free to grab anything from the Constantine (son of Basil I) article for sourcing. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:57, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I thought this was the accepted narrative; changed to something very close to your suggestion and added a source to Ostrogorsky. Ichthyovenator (talk) 02:48, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• In the lede I think Some time later, she returned to imperial affairs and became the mistress of Michael III's friend and co-emperor Basil I. a simple insertion of "allegedly" will suffice. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:00, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Added an "allegedly". Ichthyovenator (talk) 02:48, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Prose Suggestions

Please note that almost all of these are suggestions, and can be implemented or ignored at your discretion. Any changes I deem necessary for the article to pass GA standards I will bold.

Life

• she was taught to venerate icons in secret by her mother and by Theophilos's (a staunch iconoclast) step-mother Euphrosyne suggest Although Theophilos was a staunch iconoclast, and thus opposed the veneration of icons, Thekla was taught to venerate them in secret by her mother and Theophilos's step-mother Euphrosyne.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 02:48, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Perhaps Theodora viewed her daughter, just as she did her son, as a potential future heir suggest This may suggest that Theodora viewed her daughter, just as she did her son, as a potential future heir.

Changed. Ichthyovenator (talk) 02:48, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• {{As part of this arrangement, Michael apparently also offered Thekla to Basil as a mistress,[19] perhaps to keep his attention away from Eudokia,[20] a plan which Thekla had apparently consented to}} depending on how you choose to mention the alternative view, you may wish simply to add something along the lines of "according to Symeon Logothete" here, also avoid repeated usage of "apparently"; suggest removing the first usage here and changing the second usage here to "seemingly", or something similar, to avoid three uses in three sentences.

Replaced "apparently" by saying that this is Symeon Logothete's account. Ichthyovenator (talk) 02:48, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• One comment I would make is you may wish to drop Finlay as a source, as he is only used once where three other refs support it.~

Yeah, dropped Finlay. Ichthyovenator (talk) 02:48, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• @Ichthyovenator: Article looks great otherwise, thanks for bringing attention to some of our articles which don't get a lot of that. Once mention of source dispute is incorporated I will pass as GA. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:13, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Iazyges: Thank you! I've addressed all the comments (including mentioning the source dispute). I think Theodora's reign as a whole is pretty fascinating but often overlooked. One wonders if the idea that Thekla could one day become empress in her own right (if this was the intention) was realistic, but it's pretty interesting. Ichthyovenator (talk) 02:48, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ichthyovenator: It really is, in some ways it reminds me of Staurakios suggesting an imperial democracy, having an empress who wasn't just "holding the throne for a minute" but a straight-up direct empress would really be something; Irene counts of a fashion, but her rise wasn't exactly... kosher. On a side note, I've listed her in the "monarchs" section, joining Zoe and Theodora. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 04:22, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Iazyges: Yeah, I hadn't heard of the imperial democracy idea - did he mean instituting proper elections for emperors? I think Thekla and her mother being counted as monarchs is fair (if nothing else the coins and seals are pretty explicit), but yeah, despite widespread support Michael III got rid of them seemingly without any trouble. I still don't know how Irene expected to be able to rule for a significant period of time. Maybe Zoë and the later Theodora could have ruled longer in their own right if they hadn't been jealous of each other or maybe they would have eventually been pressured to marry anyway. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:34, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ichthyovenator: Yeah, the only secondary source I've found to really talk about it is Bury, and some suggest he only got there by mistranslating Theophanes; he doesn't say much except that "if it did happen it was almost certainly because his mind was addled" and he was on deaths doorstep. I'd imagine it would be some kind of elective monarch; maybe the governors would elect the emperors for life. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 16:49, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Iazyges I see in the infobox that Thekla was born in Constantinople, but this is unsourced and not in the article itself. I've tried looking through some sources, but I was unable to find any clarification. By chance, have you come across anything that could verify this? Thank you kindly, Unlimitedlead (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Unlimitedlead: Unfortunately no. The odds are about 99.9% that she was indeed born in Constantinople IMO, but no sources seem willing to say as much, so I've removed it. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:17, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]