Talk:United States men's national ice hockey team

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

American men's national hockey team → United States national men's hockey team — see below —Neier 05:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Most national teams in Category:National sports teams are named such as Country Name national sport team. Three exceptions have been noted – the teams in Category:National ice hockey teams, Category:Women's national ice hockey teams, and Category:National bandy teams, where an adjectival form of the nation is used in place of the proper name. Besides the inconsistency with other sports, it can also lead to ambiguity (American is not exclusive to the United States) etc. The United States article was recently brought here, and moved with no objections; but, the move was soon reverted in order to match the rest of the ice hockey teams. I maintain that changing the ice hockey and bandy teams to match the rest of the sports in Category:National sports teams (including large categories such as Category:National basketball teams, Category:Davis Cup teams, and Category:National football (soccer) teams) is more important. For some of the more well-populated national categories, I've linked to the nation's encompassing national team category below, for more references. I dislike group nominations; but, in light of the move/revert that recently happened, this is the only way to resolve the naming issue as a community. -- Neier 05:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Men's ice hockey
  • Algeria national ice hockey team
  • American national men's hockey team → United States national men's hockey team (see Category:National sports teams of the United States)
  • Armenia national ice hockey team
  • Australia national ice hockey team (see Category:National sports teams of Australia
    )
  • Austria national ice hockey team
  • Belarus national men's ice hockey team
  • Belgium national ice hockey team
  • Bulgaria national ice hockey team
  • Canadian national men's hockey team → Canada national men's hockey team (see Category:National sports teams of Canada)
  • China national men's ice hockey team
  • Croatia national ice hockey team
  • Czech Republic national ice hockey team
  • Denmark national ice hockey team
  • Dutch national ice hockey team → Netherlands national ice hockey team
  • Estonian national ice hockey team → Estonia national ice hockey team
  • Finland national men's ice hockey team
  • France national ice hockey team
  • German national ice hockey team → Germany national ice hockey team (see Category:National sports teams of Germany)
  • Hungary national ice hockey team
  • Iceland national ice hockey team
  • Ireland national ice hockey team
  • Israel national ice hockey team
  • Italian national ice hockey team → Italy national ice hockey team
  • Japanese national ice hockey team → Japan national ice hockey team
  • Kazakhstan national ice hockey team
  • Latvia national ice hockey team
  • Lithuania national ice hockey team
  • Luxembourg national ice hockey team
  • Mexico national ice hockey team
  • Mongolia national ice hockey team
  • North Korean national ice hockey team → North Korea national ice hockey team
  • Norway national ice hockey team
  • Poland national ice hockey team
  • Romania national ice hockey team
  • Russian national ice hockey team → Russia national ice hockey team (see Category:National sports teams of Russia)
  • Serbia national ice hockey team
  • Slovakia national ice hockey team
  • Slovenia national ice hockey team
  • South Africa national ice hockey team
  • South Korean national ice hockey team → South Korea national ice hockey team
  • Spain national ice hockey team
  • Sweden national men's ice hockey team
  • Swiss national ice hockey team → Switzerland national ice hockey team
  • Turkey national men's ice hockey team
  • Ukraine national ice hockey team
  • American national women's hockey team → United States national women's hockey team
• Women's ice hockey
  • Canadian national women's hockey team → Canada national women's hockey team
  • China national women's ice hockey team
  • Finland national women's ice hockey team
  • Germany national women's ice hockey team
  • Italy national women's ice hockey team
  • Kazakhstan national women's ice hockey team
  • Russia national women's ice hockey team
  • Slovenia national women's ice hockey team
  • Sweden national women's ice hockey team
  • Turkey national women's ice hockey team
• Bandy
  • Belarusian national bandy team → Belarus national bandy team
  • Canadian national bandy team → Canada national bandy team
  • Dutch national bandy team → Netherlands national bandy team
  • Estonian national bandy team → Estonia national bandy team
  • Finnish national bandy team → Finland national bandy team
  • Hungarian national bandy team → Hungary national bandy team
  • Kazakhstanian national bandy team → Kazakhstan national bandy team
  • Latvian national bandy team → Latvia national bandy team
  • Mongolian national bandy team → Mongolia national bandy team
  • Norwegian national bandy team → Norway national bandy team
  • Russian national bandy team → Russia national bandy team
  • Soviet national bandy team → Soviet Union national bandy team
  • Swedish national bandy team → Sweden national bandy team

• I am not positive of the correct term here (it could be England). Corrections are welcome.
  • Great Britain national ice hockey team> United Kingdom national ice hockey team
  • Great Britain national women's ice hockey team United Kingdom national women's ice hockey team

• Support as nomination. Neier 05:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per nom to move all teams. Changing the adjective by a noun helps to avoid the politically incorrect ambiguity. German team is not necessarily composed entirely of ethnic Germans but it is still a team of Germany. Same, for Russia, Ukraine, etc. --Irpen 06:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as people use the adjectives in their normal speech. The proposal just sounds akward. -- Earl Andrew - talk 07:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per Irpen, also keeps consistency with other national team articles. T Rex | talk 12:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per Earl Andrew. I think the new way is far to cumbersome and awkward. If anything I think the other sports should be changed to match the ice hockey approach. --Djsasso 18:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose In the international hockey tournaments I've seen, that's how they're described. GoodDay 18:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per Earl Andrew, Djsasso, and GoodDay. Kaiser matias 19:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Consistency with other pages is important. I believe that noun form is relatively common, even if the adjective form is also common. For example, Hockey Canada throughout their web site uses phrases such as "Team Canada" or "Canada's National Men's Team". Other examples: [1] [2]. Although I didn't look too extensively, I didn't see any times where Hockey Canada used the adjective form to describe the team. -- JamesTeterenko 19:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further to my comment: How about using the possessive form of the noun: Canada's national men's hockey team ? -- JamesTeterenko 19:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would change my oppose to support if the versions were what JamesTeterenko suggests. But I definately don't like the original suggestion. --Djsasso 19:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, I might support JamesTeterenko's idea but not the original. --Krm500 19:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Support for JamesTeterenko's alternate, oppose the original proposal. I know that the proposal would add consistency in naming, but I really don't like the use of a bad precedent as an argument in favour of a change. "Canada men's..." is simply very awkward to read and say. I would prefer to leave the names as they are, but if we change to a possessive variant of the "formal" title, that would be acceptable to me. Resolute 19:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • To add as well, the concern that not every German team player would be an ethnic German doesn't really wash with me. A team is a representative of the nation it is playing for. So while an individual might have a different heritage, the team itself is of the nation it plays for. So, it is the German team, not the Germany team. Resolute 19:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I was thinking the exact same thing. Just because your ethnicity is not German that does not mean your nationality isn't. So that arguement is completely baseless. I would prefer it to stay as it is but would support James's alternate if the /need/ was there to change it. --Djsasso 20:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Dainius Zubrus played for Russia in the World Cup of Hockey in 2004, but his ethnicity is not Russian and his nationality is not either. T Rex | talk 20:19, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • He has Russian citizenship (a requirement to play for a team in an
          Olympics. --Djsasso 20:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply
          ]
          • Well, I would consider citizenship and nationality different things. However, Nedved and Zubrus represent Canada and Russia respectively internationally. So when they are on that team, they are of those nations. Resolute 20:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • Either way I think we are both getting at the same thing. --Djsasso 20:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: I haven't looked at other sites, but USA Hockey does not use the term "American". Specifically, please see page 269 of this pdf, which lists the "2007 United States Mens National Team", as well as all of the group's press releases. We should be focussed on using the real names of things, and not nicknames which may or may not be used by the team and which may or may not be easy to say. Neier 22:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually is not the standard when naming articles to use the name most commonly known by? I do believe it is and if it is then it would be the American Men's National Team. --Djsasso 22:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • You would be referring to
      WP:NC#Use common names of persons and things. I can't find any google search (that excludes wikipedia) which has any combination of "American ...." beating "United States ...." in hit count. For the exact title's we're debating, the counts are 8 and 9, so not a whole lot to go by. "American hockey team" gives 966, while "United States hockey team" gives 10,600. Adding "national" in the title (the current and proposed title, except without "men's") gives a whopping 9 results for American national hockey team, and 840 for United States national hockey team. - Neier 22:49, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply
      ]
      • But that falls into the category of you can't make all decisions based on google searches. In this instance especially I don't know a single person that would call it the United States National Team compared to the American National Team....In almost every newscast you will hear the second. In common everyday use you will almost always hear the second. --Djsasso 22:53, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, not all decisions can be made using Google; but, when it comes to proving the popularity of a particular term, I don't know of any better way. Is there any
      reliable evidence that supports the current names? In the US team's case, Team USA, or the Americans are probably more used on the newscasts anyway (be it wrt hockey, basketball, or whatever sport they happen to be showing), since they already have the context (the video), and don't have to use different names to distinguish a basketball team from a hockey team like we have to do in an encyclopedia. Neier 22:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply
      ]
• Comment - another point to consider is that when scores are written out in a newspaper, or on TV, etc, the team names are never "German" vs "French", or "Chinese" vs "American". The scores reported are always "Germany" vs "France", "China" vs "United States", etc. Why should wikipedia be any different? Neier 04:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - there is no good reason why (ice) hockey should be the lone exception in Wikipedia for national sport team article names. There is a good reason why football et. al. use the "Country national sport team" naming convention, and that is because the adjectival form for many countries is awkward or unknown. Would you know to look at
  fh}} for field hockey, {{davis}} and {{fed}} for tennis, etc. These two templates (plus another pair for women's teams) could replace all the individual templates found in Category:Ice hockey team templates (and probably many more uncategorized). Andrwsc 06:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Strong Support per nom and
  PeeJay 22:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Support per
  MC 00:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Support -Ulla 22:31, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• British national ice hockey teams should be moved to United Kingdom nationial ice hockey team. T Rex | talk 10:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Updated. Neier 12:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • If they are changed, it should be to "Great Britain" as that is what the IIHF refers to it. -- Earl Andrew - talk 19:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland competes as Great Britain in Olympic sports, and ice hockey is no exception. Earl Andrew is correct. Oldelpaso 16:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.