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Lon Chaney Phantom of the Opera
It was the first Universal Classic Monster before Bela Lugosi Dracula. Should get representation. Silent Film Era Doremon764 (talk) 15:59, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Specifically, I'm thinking about Universal's return to some of their classic monsters, like the miniseries "Frankenstein: The True Story," the Langella "Dracula," and "An American Werewolf in London." Is there a place to discuss these revisionist remakes in this article? HumanRain81 (talk) 00:57, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per the addition of this source from Collider, the article tries to collide the films as a franchise. However, they were not initially conceived this way and the article takes a lot of historical liberties in saying "first" and other statements. For example, "Universal created one of the first (if not the first) franchises in Hollywood history with its monster movies". The idea of this wouldn't have existed in the film then, and the characters in these series were not connected with each other until much later in the 1940s and against other established sources in the article, such as the Billboard articles from the 1990s that's actually the only serious source from Universal on how these films are connected, (i.e: they were connected to try and sell more copies of films on home video by making it appear to audiences they are connected). It would be a historical anachronism to suggest these films are all grouped together, because there is not actual evidence that they were ever set out to do such a thing. This I why I do not suggest describing these films as a series like this, because that would be misleading to readers. Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So it appears that you’re confusing a franchise with a shared universe. They are not the same thing. The article doesn’t really imply them as a series either. A media franchise is a collection of related media from which derivative works come from. The relationship does not mean they all take place in the same shared universe. The relationship could be that the same studio owns the films or the licenses to those films. Several years back, New Line Cinema packaged A Nightmare on Elm Street, Friday the 13th, and Texas Chainsaw Massacre into a media franchise called House of Horror. The House of Horror franchise was licensed out as a package to companies who produced toys, comic books, etc. None of these characters were conceived together or initially planned to be part of any shared universe, yet they were packaged together as a media franchise. Universal Classic Monsters is a package that Universal puts together and licenses out as a franchise that it can license out in the same way. You can buy official merchandise that simply says Universal Classic Monsters with none of the actual monsters appearing on it. You’re buying the franchise logo. Each of the individual characters and their related characters are considered a sub-franchise. NJZombie (talk) 17:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a lot talk but not sources to back it up. My issue is the current source implies things which are not true and gets several things just anachronistically wrong. You can try to explain it to me in as many ways you as you like, but you'll need to back it up with sources. Next, all the films in the Midnite Movies are also related and a franchise if I just want to pick and choose things. I've yet to see any real pull from an article that's worth its salt that groups these films (and apparently comics, which the citation doesn't connect it outside a link saying "this exists"). Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It already has a source, despite whether you agree with it or not. That doesn't mean that new ones need to be found to suit your liking. Once again, you have some false idea about what a franchise is. Regardless of whether it was conceived as such during each film's creation, Universal decided to group them together under one franchise name. To say that the quote about Universal creating one of the first franchises in Hollywood history is false, is a falsehood itself. It's simply stating that they were producing these films that were connected via their genre that would years later be licensed under the collective banner of Universal Monsters or Universal Classic Monsters. They did create a franchise, even if they weren't thinking of it as such at the time. They own those films and package and license them however and whenever they choose. Looney Tunes and the original Disney character cartoons were not created with the intention of being franchised characters who interact with each other but they certainly are now. Wikipedia's own article defines a media franchise as "a collection of related media in which several derivative works have been produced from an original creative work of fiction" Also, "Multimedia franchises usually develop through a character or fictional world becoming popular in one medium, and then expanding to others through licensing agreements, with respect to intellectual property in the franchise's characters and settings." As far as the Midnite Movies comparison, it doesn't relate. Midnite Movies was a video line consisting of B-movies collected from various film libraries MGM had acquired. With the exception of the DVDs and one toy line of small figures, they seemingly have not been licensing that out as a franchise, although if they decided to lump those films into one collective license for use in other media, then yes, that too would be considered a franchise. NJZombie (talk) 03:01, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Against you'll need sources to back this up and currently you have one source which has historical anachronisms and yes it's calls it a franchise, but then goes on to say it's one of the first film franchises. I would try to find something a bit more high quality. And yes there are toys of the characters, but not under this headline. I wonder if it might be better to rename the article to something like "Universal Monsters" as some sort of collective, because I think that would solve our situation. I find that term a lot more than specific headlines here and it might eliminate the weird sort of issues of what is or isn't included (i.e: Universal's early home video items having MGM titles which seemed to be in the collection once) for example. Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:59, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Wikipedia article states right at the beginning that the franchise is also referred to as Universal Monsters and Universal Studios Monsters. All three are used on various merchandise, including toys. Some even use Universal Studios Classic Monsters. It's all the same franchise. If changing the article name to just Universal Monsters suits you, and nobody else has an issue, have at it. I don't think it really changes anything though because they're all synonymous with each other. As far as the existing source, I thoroughly disagree with you that it contains an anachronism as I've already explained that the creation of the franchise might have happened retroactively, but it did happen nonetheless, including the MGM titles in question. NJZombie (talk) 04:35, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The lead says there are toys, and I've tried to find articles about how they are connected and not just Universal releasing toys of their properties, but they weren't marketed under any connecting banner. At least from the 1960s ones, so you keep saying this and that, but you aren't providing back up for any of it. I don't want to go back and forth, but the reason why a lot of the article is how it currently despite people saying I'm wrong, no one has found anything outside lines of people saying "it's a franchise" but all the evidence they provide is just assumptions without sources. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:21, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not sure what you’re reading, but the lead makes no mention of toys. The merchandising section does mention toys and even specifically mentions the model kits released by Aurora. That line is sourced. There’s also a section on some of the comic books published by different companies and based on the line, also with sources. There are certainly numerous specific items that can be added but these are all examples of franchising… licensing out a brand to make derivative works. NJZombie (talk) 13:01, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to remind you about sealioning here, @Andrzejbanas. If you are experiencing despite people saying I'm wrong multiple times over this issue, which from a check of the archives it seems you are, you should consider whether you may be exhibiting civil POV pushing, which you've been warned about before. Pings to @StarTrekker, @DisneyMetalhead, @Joltman, @Enter Movie, @Jc37, who have been involved here in what look like very similar conversations with you going back several years. Valereee (talk) 13:04, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for pinging me. I've been considering for years to get to the bottom of this issue, but have not had the energy. Yes I'm inclined to agree there is some level of OWN issues going on here.★Trekker (talk) 13:11, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the concern. Obviously I've been trying to clean up a lot of the old Universal film articles, and when I came to this one I came from it from same poi t if view as you guys had. ut when I tried to back it up with research, I feel flat. I'd love to have some sort of hybrid that makes sense, but when it comes to specific sources that just call it a one thing or another, the only ones I found that are actual discussion from Universal or are more thought our research say what I have been going by. Trust me, I don't like arguing with people, but we can only post what we've found. And if we had franchise, the article then co tradicts itself. So what's the solution?Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:24, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you like arguing with people but I think you have a way too strict view of how a franchise and it's articles should look like, not everything is standardized.★Trekker (talk) 14:57, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, if it's not standardized, why even apply something to a group that's going to have different meanings to different people, even in basic English? Without context for that, this doesn't help readers. I think one other alternative I was going to discuss is maybe re-phrasing this term to
Universal Horror with some discussion about the monsters within it as a subsection. The monsters are definitely discussed, but trying to lump together is a bit patchy. I find so much more academic and well-written things stating "Universal Horror" which is usually discussing the films between Dracula and A&C Meet Frankenstein from Universal than I do for the monsters and trying to connect the dots about it being a series or a cinematic universe or anything. That would require a substantial re-write and I don't want to just knee-jerk reaction into that idea, but That would probably satisfy you guys and definitely be something I think I could actually work at. Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:12, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
You're doing it again.★Trekker (talk) 18:08, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind a response, but just saying "I'm doing it again" without context isn't going to get me to understand what you mean. I suggested earlier moving the articles name to actually make it inyo something expandable, you said sure, and I suggested it again and you said "I'm doing it again". I haven't been explained why my concerns aren't valid and have only been called out of being trying to control the article. I think from my other work on the other articles I've worked on you can safely assume I'm trying to follow rules and make the article expandable. Everyone else seems to want to toss in single Google searches and then get mad when I say it contradicts more thorough research. What is and isn't acceptable? Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:20, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Andrzejbanas, why don't you tell editors here in a single sentence what other people want to include that you're objecting to? Seriously, a single sentence. Valereee (talk) 20:38, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
...or even what the perceived anachronism is. All I've seen is that you're stating that it can't be described as a franchise because they didn't conceive of it that way. It also doesn't mean that the films need to be seen as one continuous series or a cinematic universe, although that can and is the case in many franchises. None of these circumstances define what a franchise is and a company can decide retroactively to package their owned similar items out, in this case due to their genre, and license that package out to other companies for derivative merchandise. That's a franchise. That's it. What's the anachronism? NJZombie (talk) 20:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, regarding your claim that there were no toys "marketed under any connecting banner", here are links to photos of a handful of the many toys all packaged and marketed with a connecting banner/logo. I'm not suggesting any of these be used as sources, of course. It's just one set of examples of how the collection of characters were franchised as Universal Monsters or whatever variation was used on a specific set of items.
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Monster Mash (upcoming film) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 1#Monster Mash (upcoming film) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 05:59, 1 September 2022 (UTC)